Looking at less lethal options than a Sig P365 for any aggressive dog or relentlessly inhospitable person on my walks or anywhere else one may encounter these so was checking out the Fox Labs website.

They offer a few options for the spray pattern - cone spray, stream spray, foam spray and splatter stream. Seems like the stream spray has the least chance of blowback (definitely a big factor outdoors) or "cross contamination" which I assume means hitting innocent bystanders, but it also needs to be directed with the most accuracy whereas the others have a wider pattern.

The Fox FAQ's and product details speak to the pros and cons of each type of delivery a little but wanted to get any further opinions or advice from those here who have reason to train with pepper spray and/or have used it.

Also, would you recommend the oil or water based products for civilian use? From what I can see they are both about the same potency.

Older lady i worked with wanted some pepper spray.

For when she was leaving stores , etc.


Husband was a cheapo.

Bought her a can of wasp spray. 😂😂.

Told her it’s good for 25’. 😂😂

foam., or stream....i dont ahev any experience with splatter or cone sprays. butd id be leaning toward their 5% foam

Pepper spray does a number on me. I have seen it have negligible effect on a few. In most cases it will buy you more time. I haven't seen it used on dogs often. I have never seen it have a dramatic impact. In the few cases I have seen, it just makes them want to rub their face in the grass.

Stream but you have to be more accurate with it. Fox Labs or Sabre Defense should work well. Stay away from foam, sucks in cold weather and can be tossed back at you.

Whatever you buy, don't be downwind if/when you deploy it. You and your provocateur will both have an unpleasant experience.

Pepper spray isn't terribly effective on dogs. Has about the same effect as spraying them with water, they don't care for it, but it doesn't really bother them.

On people it works pretty well usually, but there are some that it has minimal effect on.

Some of the bear sprays are more potent than defense pepper spray, look into those.

Nah just carry a picture of Maxine Waters or Shiela Jackson Lee. Probably turn them to salt.

Jim, The one product I ever used was UDAP in the small container I believe they called the jogger fogger. The times I used it on dogs the effects were immediate. One being a rott bitch with pups. One blast and she ran back to her pups and did not come back for seconds.

I want to get one for the shower

A problem with wasp spray or bear spray is you are using an EPA registered product counter to its label. Every canister says: “It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with it’s labeling.”

If you pack around bear or wasp spray with the intent to use it as self defense against humans, you could conceivably get into trouble. If you are hiking in bear country and carrying bear spray and use it incidentally as an expedient weapon against a human aggressor, I think you may be ok. At least that’s what I recall reading somewhere on the internet…

Never used pepper spray we used MACE CN not pepper spray as you might gather its been sometime since I wore a badge. The mace was fairly effective the CS version a little more so. Of course in those days we also had alternative pacifiers 16oz flat saps they always worked.

Been doing some more reading on the web and it looks like a spray or gel type would be the best bet for the most likely scenarios.

I started with Fox Labs because I remember one of our LEO's mentioning it but what other brands are at the top for effectiveness or other features, like including a small practice can of inert spray?

Yeah, that was one of my first thoughts a while back but that idea was quickly squashed here for multiple reasons, both legal and practical. At my age distance is an integral part of my defense plan so getting close enough to whack someone upside the head is becoming a less viable option.

What does the EPA label say regarding use of lead JHP?
Furthermore, why is the EPA regulating bear spray?

Edit - turns out, it’s because of the propellant. Oh yippie.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/f...rsionId=jxHZGFZHJnSFUIeUwsfxHXLw..HNlW2C

I’ve only used the spray from Freeze plus P. In my experience, it’s effective maybe 50% of the time. Not very effective on Hispanics or Asians or white kids with fathers who used the spray as a form of punishment.

one night we were trying to cuff this drunk who had been beating up his parents. pretty strong guy, got him on the ground, didn't want to cooperate. gave him a full load of cs right in the face, he was laughing,gagged both of us.
on the way to jail we both had our heads out the window.
now about an hour later he was in misery

one night we were trying to cuff this drunk who had been beating up his parents. pretty strong guy, got him on the ground, didn't want to cooperate. gave him a full load of cs right in the face, he was laughing,gagged both of us.
on the way to jail we both had our heads out the window.
now about an hour later he was in misery
i also carried a flat sap, it was quite a motivator, same as one of the old kel lights with light four batteries. really pizzed off a partner of mine who used it on someone not cooperating, and it broke the bulb.
personally i was fond of a nightstick

I used quite a bit of pepper spray when I was in corrections. Stream or foam seem to be the best from my experience. You and any others in the immediate area are going to get an exposure. No way to avoid it. It’s not fatal. Even the bear spray isn’t fatal. It sucks but you and everyone else exposed with recover.

I’ve seen a total of one officer and one inmate over the years who weren’t affected by it. It works on the vast majority of people. Wash your exposed clothing separately from any clothing that might come in contact with any sensitive areas of your wife’s body. Don’t ask how I know, just accept that it’s true.

When you wash it off your hair, face and body, it runs down to sensitive places too.

Have a buddy that used on a bunch of lowlifes parked in his driveway. He asked them to leave nicely and they said they didn’t have to. Hit them all with bear spray while in the pickup. He said when they were done crying and puking they left and never returned. Another happy ending. Edk

I was a prison guard for 27 years. When I started they had some [bleep] called Federal Dust. I am not sure what it is but I never saw it used. We then started using pepper spray quite a ways into my career. Like some others said Fox Labs or Sabre are in my guess the 2 most popular. I think we had Sabre in the Wisconsin Prison System.
We had a neighbor many years ago who had a dog that liked to chase people on bikes. At that time I had some key chain pepper spray aka cheap [bleep] and sprayed the dog with it. I never had that dog chase me again. We had foam spray to use when we took inmates to the hospital so we did not contaminate a whole floor/wing.

When all the BLM [bleep] started my Wife was working in Madison ,WI a liberal cesspool. So I bought her a can of bear spray. I told her if any [bleep] blocked the road stick your hand out the window with the spray and let her go.WELLLLL one day she was situating the can of bear spray in her car and it went off ...LMAOI have no idea how. I was pig hunting in TX at the time. She had to call into work and her boss said it was far and away the best excuse he had ever heard for not coming in to work
.
90% of the time when I leave the house I have pepper spray. I just turned 56 and while I still think I can handle myself there may be times that I can't. Also not every situation calls for deadly force so why not carry the tools for the job?

Yes it certainly does.

Go with the stream. If at all possible don't be down wind of any of them.

kwg

I’m a less-lethal instructor with my department. I’ll try and answer this the best I can. Keep in mind, we use Safariland/Defensive Technologies stuff.

You’re right that stream is the least effected by wind. It has a greater effective range and has less of a chance to blow back. It is also the most difficult to get the desired result because it’s more concentrated. But, if you make contact, you get a lot of product on target.

Oil based products stick real well. We use water based to avoid possible ignition with tasers. That’s why we never use alcohol based. If you’re not using a taser, don’t worry about that.

Make sure your product is 360 degree rated. This means it will spray at all angles. They use a pressurized bladder vs a tube, which means it will spray when upside down. You never know if you need to spray behind you as you get away, or if you end up on the ground.

Thanks for all the tips, looks like an oil based stream or gel is the way to go since odds are even or better it would be used outside without any ability to get upwind. Going to check out the Sabre products as well.

You don't want to catch a snort of the Fox stuff. Get the stream or spray. I believe it's called 5.3. I carry a few small ones in the truck. Also have the big stream sprayer. Just haven't got around to putting it in the truck yet.

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. I'm not going to correct it all. There is also some sense too.

OC spray can be an effective less-lethal defensive tool. It is just a tool and possessing it doesn't comprise a defense in and of itself -- like having a gun doesn't mean you're defended. It's not a magic shield.

If you carry it, you should train with it. OC spray handling is not as sophisticated as gun handling and doesn't take many hours of training, but there is more to an OC defense than just handling procedures. Just like with a firearm, some of the most important parts of defense are mindset, attitude, character, wisdom, habits, maneuvering and positioning, awareness, verbal boundary enforcement...

Used poorly, OC can escalate a conflict. One time, I foolishly threatened to use OC on a loose dog that was approaching my dog and I when the owner refused to call it off. He and his drunk buddy fisted beer bottle clubs instead. I just needed to leave and did but not before risking a stupid fight. That "stand your ground" attitude won't always pay off. Even if you're "right" you won't always win.

Wasp spray is totally ineffective. It's been tested and proven. It's not even cheaper than OC so there's just no point except for the stupid and ignorant.

OC spray is often very effective on dogs, but no effect is assured. Ther'es no need for debate -- you can see the videos for yourself (both successes and failures). OC works by inflaming mucous membranes. On humans, it is particularly effective at making eyes water profusely and obscuring vision or forcing the eyes to shut. It can also cause a burning of the nose, sinuses and lips. Additional pain can be inflicted with CS gas or OC/CS combination sprays. OC is going to be less effective on dogs at stopping an attack through temporarily blinding. It should, however, inflame the mucous membranes in their muzzle if the spray hits it. Hitting a dog's fast-moving muzzle is harder than hitting a human's face. So the effectiveness is going to depend on the delivery and that will depend on things like how close the dog is, how much it is moving, and so on.

Sabre and Fox are good brands. I've had a can of Cold Steel fail in training, though it was expired. I trained with expired Sabre and did not have failures but it's a small sample.

If you're intending it for EDC, only the smallest cans are practical. I've got big ass cans for my house and vehicles, but when I carried OC, I used the SABRE Advanced Compact Pepper Spray with Clip – 3-in-1 Formula (Pepper Spray, CS Tear Gas & UV Marking Dye) -- because I could clip it in my pocket. I stopped carrying it. Just fell out of the habit during the 'shutdown' I guess when I stopped going out much because everything was canceled. My wife still carries POM brand (keychain or clip). I think those cans are a little better (just the container design). Both are stream not conical spray.

Conical spray is undesireable in even a little breeze but it does work like a shotgun otherwise. It's a good option to have in a very big can with a plastic bag for your own head -- not an EDC setup but has its uses otherwise.

Get Sudecon wipes. Keep them in your FAK's and wherever you have OC.

I respectfully disagree about using blended sprays. Straight OC is food-grade product and has an extremely low probability of causing someone any issues.

What do you guys think about the Kimber two shot pepper blaster? Bought one for the wife. I think she likes it because it's not a real gun but almost looks like one. Uses a percussion cap to propel spray.

Time for another promotion...or job. Lol

Just ordered two canisters of the Sabre Red pepper gel, a larger unit with belt clip and smaller one that comes with an inert practice canister. Chose the Sabre products mainly because they offer the gel where Fox Labs only offers the foam, also for the flip top safety and the ability to use it from any angle. Will probably keep the larger in the car and carry the smaller one around in a jacket pocket. Will try different ways to see what allows the fastest access.



Once I've practiced aiming it a bit I'll walk around with a bad attitude and then report back how well these work...

The EPA has classified bear spray as a pesticide on bears so that gives off label use a more serious penalty. Of course their penalty is likely less than getting a mugger's shiv between the ribs.

I did use OC spray on a dog while I was in some back yards looking for a lost youngster. He was on the other side of a chain link fence and he was right up in my ear barking at me. I gave him a snoot full and he did stop barking at me so he could wipe his face in the grass. It wasn't a real good test and he did leave me alone for long enough to finish my search. I believed it was long enough to make a get away if I had to. If it's all you had I'd use it on a dog in a New York minute if I wanted to make a get away in what ever time it takes for him to wipe his face in the grass. Something is better than nothing.

kwg

I chose foam for the vehicle cabins as well as for my wife and kids since they don’t have to be as mindful of the wind. Atomized spray almost guarantees the user will get some exposure and I don’t want them (or myself) to suffer any disadvantage during a time like that.

Great choice! I have the same thing as well as other Sabre products.

If they are the primary aggressors (attackers) do we care about their issues ?? If it was for Joe or Josephine citizen I also liked the products with dye so the bad guy could be identified. This is keeping in mind the citizen used it to defend themselves against an unwanted aggressor. We lost our chemical spray (real tear gas products) in the early 1980's so that wasn't really an issue once OC hit the market. There was a huge time gap (years) from when we lost the tear gas products to when OC became available.

kwg

A potential problem is that it could escalate a non-deadly force conflict to a deadly-force conflict. If someone pulls a (pepper blaster) gun, they could get shot. The defense is, "they pulled a gun on me. I was in fear for my life. I shot them before they could shoot me." I'm not saying this is likely or probable, but it seems ill-advised to have any appearance of the use of deadly force unless it is justified, and if it is justified, then deadly force should have that effect and not less (ie no "warning shot").

Ended up ordering two Sabre products. Their pepper gel kit with a practice spray and keychain and their larger Crossfire pepper gel with a belt clip.

So far I much prefer the smaller one since it fits the hand a lot better. It's not big enough to get three fingers on but I can grab it with a fist like you're supposed to and wrap my pinky under the bottom which provides some leverage for my thumb to press the release.

The larger one is bulkier and awkward to hold in a fist, it seems easier to hold it like a can of spray paint and depress the release with my index finger but that's not how you're supposed to use it. Plus the belt clip is fixed in place and can't be rotated or moved around and gets in the way. Doubt I would ever use the ring clip on the smaller one since it fits into a hoody or jacket pocket and can be deployed quickly, the finger grooves really help to align it forward. I might see some use for the belt clip model since the clip comes off of a belt easily but so far I'm finding it more awkward to deploy and aim quickly and accurately.

Fairly inexpensive at $31 total for both, including tax.

Obviously haven't tried either for effectiveness and hope I never do, also don't feel like squirting a little on something and taking a smell,either.

I prefer a lead dispenser but back when I was running a good bit I decided that compromised my fine motor skills too much to shoot accurately. All I have carried is a spray cone o' fog. Never had to use it on a person but one time I was on a bike path with tall fences on both sides, sort of a cattle chute, and ran into a raccoon that decided to first stand its ground, then close with me. I can tell you raccoons do not approve of the happy red fog. Not one bit.

Tom