https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/w...tDU1o81JOcHNj42wFvuoQSoUh0ZBWLOV0aoKUqxI

Earlier this month, Dugan Traversie entered a plea deal with prosecutors for his role in a poaching case that dates back to last fall. Traversie was ordered to pay $9,000 in restitution to Timber Lake Elk Ranch, one-year probation, and one year without hunting. Since the judgement by the U.S. magistrate seems light, I’m tacking one more punishment onto his crime: I’m declaring Traversie the dumbest poacher of 2019.

Traversie is a member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe in South Dakota. He held a buck tag for the reservation’s deer season, which started on November 2. But, five days before gun opener, on October 28, Traversie got a head start on the season by poaching a whitetail buck with his rifle. It wasn’t just any buck, though.

Traversie shot the deer on the Timber Lake Elk Ranch, a high-fence game farm within the boundaries of the reservation. The property offers 100% success hunts to wealthy clients for everything from pheasants to mule deer to bison.

high fence poacher

“Located on 8,000 acres of pristine western South Dakota prairie, the Timber Lake Elk Ranch has grown to be one of the largest privately-owned elk, buffalo and deer herds in the world with more than 700 head,” Timber Lake Elk Ranch’s website states.

From outside of the property, Traversie shot the 28-point buck through the ranch’s 8-foot fence. He then crawled through the fence, took a picture with the whitetail, cut its head off, tossed the head back over the fence, and left the carcass to rot. Traversie cached the rack under a bridge for a few days with intentions of retrieving it before deer season opened.

The buck was already “spoken for” by a client who paid $20,000-plus to hunt the deer. The ranch managers brought in the whitetail on October 18, but late that month they noticed it had gone missing. When they went on a scouting mission to locate the buck on November 1, all they found was its headless body.

south dakota poacher
A picture of the buck from Timber Lake Elk Ranch’s website. Since they didn’t acquire the buck until October, this was likely taken at the deer farm in North Dakota where it was purchased.
It didn’t take long for them to figure out who the poacher was, though.

On November 3, the day after the Cheyenne Sioux Tribe’s opener, Traversie posted a picture on Facebook of him proudly holding the buck, claiming to have shot it the day before. The image went viral and reached hundreds of thousands of people, with one post getting 1,900 likes, 1,100 shares, and 650 comments.

The image was immediately met with praise and skepticism. For every five people lauding this buck of a lifetime and congratulating Traversie on his harvest, someone would comment on the deer’s unnaturally white antlers and elk-like spread. Before law enforcement even got involved, the online hunting community was questioning the legitimacy of this would-be record book whitetail.

The debate was short, though. The same day Traversie posted a picture with the buck, photos started circulating of the deer’s headless body at Timber Lake Elk Ranch, along with older photos of the buck in velvet from the ranch’s website.

south dakota big buck poacher

According to the investigation carried out by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service and Cheyenne Sioux Tribe, Traversie fessed up when law enforcement reached out. Throughout the process he’s cooperated with prosecutors and shown remorse for his actions, which led to a lenient plea bargain—despite the potential for a $250,000 fine and five years in prison based on initial charges.

“I am very, truly, truly sorry for poaching the whitetail deer when it wasn’t deer season,” Traversie told U.S. Magistrate Judge Mark Moreno. “I just ask for the opportunity to prove to this court that it will never, never happen again.”

The $9,000 restitution is the amount that Timber Lake Elk Ranch paid for the buck from a whitetail farm in North Dakota. The case has been filled with moral and legal conundrums, like how the Federal Lacey Act, wanton waste laws, and other game regulations are applied to wildlife that’s raised as livestock.

But that doesn’t change the fact that Traversie killed a whitetail out of season, trespassed, wasted a whole deer, and still felt compelled to post that grip-and-grin to social media. Now more than ever, Pat Durkin’s old Wisconsin proverb rings true: “Deer make people stupid.”

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/PqynXfjD/dugan-traversie-1.webp[/img]

Damages are all wrong.

When they sold a hunt for it for $20k+ a new value had been established.
$20k+ minus the costs of serving the Hunter.

Roger,
Don't know if you are familiar with our Elk program here or not.
A 50+ year program, long before they allowed hunting it had became
a tourist attraction. Free range, they have some huge bulls, and people
go to the fancy visitors center, watch remote broadcast cameras, and
hike all over to watch and photograph them.

A few years ago some idiot shot one of the best known bulls.
Of course you only do that to brag, or sell it to someone who will.
Didn't take long at all untill it was recognized.

I guess I was wrong in thinking those reservation Indians weren't under Federal jurisdiction when it comes to hunting. Although this wasn't exactly hunting. Big question is why would someone pay $20K to shoot a domestic animal?

Guess he thought no one would notice probably the most unique trophy in existence, huh.

Poaching is shooting a wild animal. He shot a farm raised animal. No idea what crime that is, but not poaching.
The [bleep] that pays $20k to go in and shoot that deer is no better IMO.

he looks pretty stupid. probably a paste eater

NA poacher at the rich white man paid petting zoo "hunt" preserve....


Classic....

Even if you didn't tell anyone but took it to get mounted you'd caught, they would have all the taxidermists looking out for it.

Right, I’m not convinced that’s poaching either.

Cattle rustling maybe?

That dude is really fugged up to do something like that, not his first time I'd bet, needs an azz kicking.

South Dakota Codified Laws
Title 40 ANIMALS AND LIVESTOCK
Chapter 01. Cruelty, Abuse And Injury To Animals
§40-1-21 Killing or injuring animal of another as misdemeanor--Authorized euthanasia excepted.

9 k restitution probably came outta tribal casino funds or .gov tribal funds anyways.
They more than likely took care of their mighty buck slayer backwater channel wise.

White man money justabout anyway you look at it.

Had a couple of white claws discussing the unfairness of the matter in the tribal govt office with the elders, when Dugan went their asking for help to pay it.

I was going to say exactly the same thing. He shot livestock, not game. This is the same as cattle rustling. At one time, in some areas, it was a hanging offense but now it's probably whatever penalty the state allows for the theft depending on it's value. Some cows are worth a lot more than others and this is one of the more expensive ones, more like a top breeding bull. I wonder if they collected a few quarts of semen before they offered him for shooting.

As a side note, I read how he did it. This is similar to a case years ago in one of the large eastern cities. They had a whitetail buck that was a phenomenal atypical. He was probably one of the most photographed deer of all time because everyone who visited the zoo took pictures of his unusual rack. Then one night someone 'poached' him. They shot him and dragged his body through a hole they cut in the fence.
The state fish & game figured that with a rack like that, it would be just a matter of time before it showed up at a big buck contest. They passed around a bunch of photos of him and had wardens start visiting every big buck contest there and in surrounding states. It took 3 years, but the guy finally figured that the heat was off and entered it in a contest. The heat wasn't off and they caught him.

Why are his antlers so white? They have little mescan velvet peelers on the payroll?

Last I knew you get ten yrs in the pen here.

They look sunbleached, like last year's sheds. Did he have a defect in that he retained them longer than 1 season?

No act is so private that it doesn’t want applause.

He should have had to pay the 20k$ client money, plus the 9k$ cost of purchasing the animal, plus significant jail time for criminal trespass.

He should have at least cut the back straps out.

Probably a lifetime of being fed grain and food and mineral supplements for antler growth till he was marketable at top dollar...
Who knows maybe the deer farm industry gives em shots of some sort for antler growth also???

Hilarious. The tribe, ranch, injun........They all deserve each other.

Only victim I see is the pet deer.

We don't know if the antlers were retained or if they're the current years growth. They shed them because of a change in testosterone levels. An injury from fighting can cause them to be retained.
OTOH, a buck that valuable probably wouldn't have been penned with other bucks to protect it from an injury that would decrease his value.

That is so gay.

Ralgro? Perhaps.

This abomination of a "hunting ranch" is on a reservation?

That's cool. Now the Indians can screw the white man.

I'll bet they can get around all the usual regulations. Do they test for CWD?

An Indian, snuck into another Indians farm and shot one of their livestock. Agree with earlier posts, not poaching. Or hunting.

Not going to lie when we were teens we use to road hunt, and go into the king ranch and poach, pretty much a right of passage back then. Then if you got caught it was a 250 dollar fine, defiantly not worth it now that they can hit you with a felony. We even had a police scanner in my buddy's truck and would listen to the game wardens. Once in a while, we'd go out spotlighting but not take any guns and let them catch us just to mess with them.

This.

All this story needs is a CWD breakout.

The idiot that paid 20k is a bigger prick than this guy.

true

Maybe 30 years ago the Kenai caribou herd produced some incredible bulls. It was a recent reintroduction so the feedback was full. One particular bull was a potential WR and many took photos from the road (near the Kenai airport.) It did not take long after it was poached for a MT Taxidermist to recognize it.

Amen.

Buy for 9K, sell for 20K, not a bad profit, considering the "hunter" could have bought it on the hoof...

What a sleazy racket...

It’s theft, vandalism, or criminal mischief. Same as shooting a cow.

Well, BGG, I don't think it was another Indian's farm. These folks lease the land from the tribe no doubt

"Owned and operated by the Lindskov Family, the Timber Lake Lodge is like no other hunt on earth. Our goal each day is to offer our guests an unmatched opportunity to take one of the greatest Rocky Mountain Elk, American Bison or Whitetail and Mule Deer ever, along with unsurpassed guest amenities."

The buck was already “spoken for” by a client who paid $20,000K to shoot the deer. The ranch managers “brought in” the whitetail on October 18.

lol

The Timber Lake Lodge is like no other “hunt” on earth.

lol some more

Fenced hunting is just creepy.

Gayer's aids.

A friend of mine, avid muzzleloader and rendevous participant, won a buffalo hunt somewhere up in Kansas one year. She went up there and shot the buffalo with her Hawken, dropped the animal in its' tracks. She later told us it was like shooting some ranchers' poor old Hereford cow.

Far be it from me to give a schit how someone spends their money.......but sheesh.


This game farm is the Epstein's Island of Hunting.

Isnt that a special picture......

Here's a close approximation of what's on their website:

Come and shoot our finest imported bull. He won 1st in class at the Royal Highland Show in England in 2020. We guarantee a shot of no farther than 35 yards from a bench across flat open country. For safety reasons, you will be backed up by 3 of our experienced staff shooters, all carrying 458 Winchesters.

$20,000. We charge double if you hit the man holding the bull's halter rope.

Friend shot a 380-400 class bull elk there. Drove up to him on day 1, got out, shot him.

Terrifically exciting, suspenseful hunt.

Anybody want to shoot my dog for $20k

I’ll even take him off his leash and let him run inside his kennel to make it more sporty.

🦫

I don’t give a schit either. It is what it is. I’ve seen outfitters in the Hill Country go to the sale barn and buy a buncha sheep consisting of Corsican, Mouflon, Texas Dall, and Hawaiian Blacks and load em’ up in a big horse trailer and then take em’ out and turn em’ loose on the property they had access to. Then dudes would come out and shoot one of each and they’d have accomplished the Texas ram slam. This was back in the 90’s and dudes were payin’ a thousand bucks for each one of the big rams.

Sure ain't like sneaking 5-10 miles into the king ranch on foot.

When you starting up a Elk Ranch, Mr Conrad?

Seems like a profitable operation for a family farm/ranch.

Buy a deer for $9k, set it up with some feed and stuff in a high fenced pasture, charge $20k for someone to come harvest it for you.

What a deal.

Prolly easier than dealin' with all them sheeps and cows and such.

The "ranch" is on Rez, land. So they are just pretending then I guess. The whole high fence livestock bullchit is only a couple ticks less disgusting than the reservation system. All of it is bullchit. Combine the two and it stinks worser than cat schidt.

This thread is going to make a whole lot of tejanos hotter than a jalapeño. Wonder if they use illegal aliens to build the fences up in the Dakota's too?

Those ''canned hunts'' are some sick s***. makes my skin crawl.
I believe ilegal down here in Dixie. i know you cant keep a whitetail as a pet in a fenced enclsure. Verboten.

Sheep Ranch, Game Preserve, and Bicyclist’s Resort 😎

A new business model for the Hi Line.

Like many raising deer like cattle isn't hunting at all.
Feeding supplements, shots to grow giant antlers then charging $$$$$$ to shoot a pen raised, fenced in animal has nothing close to do with real hunting.

same here unless they're bought like livestock.

Ouch!

You forgot

Kid's Motorcycling School, Grasshopper Roundups, Puppies for Sale, and General Good Time and Music.

Just an observation from the peanut gallery, but I've stocked many a pond for guys that were avowed "anti high fence" hunters. Lots of competition for my spent brood stock steelhead, guys would get really pissy if they couldn't get them one year..... We used to sell canned pheasant hunts at the RMEF banquet, for crying out loud. No one ever saw the irony.....

As long as the critter gets eaten and they don't break the law, I really don't care if they shoot a rabbit, a pheasant, a cow, a pig or a deer.....

Yeah, fish and deer are the same thing lol.

You're raising steelhead?

Didn't know you had access to salt water.

Gotta admit, I've eaten a boatload of stocker trout in my life. I just can't quite equate that with a high fence, pick your animal and we'll hold them until you get here deal though. There would have to be a diver below putting my hook in the fishes mouth.

But, I get what you're saying, as long as they eat it (or someone makes use of it) and it's legal.............Oh well, to each their own.

You insensitive clod.

This straight from the Hindustan Times; the Brits have determined even lobsters have feelings....

https://www.hindustantimes.com/envi...sentient-beings-101637722453081-amp.html

I worked on an elk ranch for a season in central Idaho. There were some huge bulls that were brought in for a few weeks, or maybe for a few months before being killed, but they were still all inside a 3,000 acre high fence. The hunters were absolutely pathetic, but it was both fun and legal. I am not aware of any of them claiming it to be a real hunt.

I didn't have an issue with it.

Lol !!! on the Clinch River they had or still have hi power rifle season for carp.
Heavy bullets mid velocity work best for best concussive effect.
Think 45-70 and calibers similar too or bigger like .458 win
Had a Joe in my sqd from Virginia in the early 90,s tell us all about it.
Elevated stands next to shallows.
You dont aim for the fish even compensating for the refraction angle.
You shoot beside it for most shockwave effect in the water and least meat damage.
Stun the fugg outta it and rupture its internal organs

Yes they ate the fugging things also.....
🤢🤢🤢

I sure would not pay $20,000 to shoot a whitetail. If I had that kind of dough laying around I would put it down on an elk hunt on the Tejon Ranch or on a Tule Elk hunt on a private ranch. And fyi California does not have any high fence game ranches. They are illegal here. I care not how other people spend their money as all conservatives should.

gotta be a special kind of retaahd to want to participate in one of them hunts. i knew this dipschit older couple from church who seemed to have a lot of money somehow and they were showing pictures of them with some fuggen things that looked like zebras with horns. the wife bragged about never having shot a gun before and blasting one of these fuggen disney character things. kind of made me sick.

A Californian lecturing on "conservatism" lol.

Emote all over the place and virtue signal yourself to death. No one is saying they don't have the "right" to buy a farm animal and shoot it. Only that it isn't hunting, and therefore isn't poaching. If you want to pay me enough, I'll buy one of the longhorns down the road, I'll turn it loose in an acre pen and you can come "hunt" it.

More liberal regulation. What difference does make if a rancher wants to sell his livestock to some rich guy to be shot? It's his livestock and the government shouldn't have any say in how he sells it. High fence shooting doesn't appeal to me in the least but if a rancher can make a $$ with it, it's his right.

It’s not that simple.

When you factor in diseases and escaped livestock for example. That’s not new ground.

BillyGoatGruff;
Good evening to you my cyber friend, I hope Thanksgiving Day is treating you and your fine family well.

Since I've got family who are still in the agriculture business, this is one topic among a few that we've agreed to disagree on.

They've had issues with disease on elk farms in Saskatchewan in the past and now I read that some of the FN reserves up there have canned deer hunts too.

In BC - so far - game farming of any natural big game is unlawful, though we do allow salmon farming on the coast which is another fine kettle of fish.

Anyways I'm with you in that it's not new ground - it's pretty much proven to be a bad thing for the wild herd.

All the best to you all and Happy Thanksgiving.

Dwayne

So if a rancher could make a dollar by growing opium popppies ot putting up a green house and growing cocain plants that would be OK then. So far there is no CWD in California and I would like to see it stay that way. It is also illegal to bait wildlife here. I am a 5th generation Californian. My mothers great grandfather came to California in the same group as the Donner Party but he thantfully did not take the Hastings cuttoff. I guess I could tuck my tail between my legs like a whipped dog and sell my house for $1 million plus and move to Idaho or Arkansas or even Tennessee. But I think this state is worth trying to save. It is my home and I am not going to be driven from it by a bunch a$$ hole polititans. I do not have that many years left on this earth anyway. Rant over!

I figure here in Texas high fences help ranches remain in place as ranches and not turn into high dollar acreage home sites. Much of the prettiest parts of the Texas Hill Country have already gone under. A real tragedy.

Happy thanksgiving to you Dwayne. Hope all’s well with you and yours.

Down here in the states, if you want to move horses whether for sale or for anything between states you need a coggins test minimum. Not sure on bovines, or ovids, but I believe there are similar. The game farmers got around it for a long time because they weren’t “livestock”. Now with cwd exploding kinda makes a guy say “fugk the mongoloid [bleep] shidthead game farms”.

It’s one thing to put up a high fence and manage your existing deer or elk like a herd of cattle as far as breeding and what’s taken out as cull or whatever. But when you start bringing in deer from Out of state like a prize bull to better the genetics of your herd, then all the rules and regs that have been applied to domestic stock come into play. And the resulting critters should be classified as domestic stock.

I've seen a little of West TX and I'm pretty sure busting up the ranch to sell lots for "high dollar acreage home sites" would go over about as good as the cheaper sites near Dolan Springs, Concho, Vernon AZ and even nearby at California Pines (famously advertised by Erik Estrada of CHiPs).

Even those reasonably priced lots/ranchitos haven't sold out yet.

Now, having seen some of the Hill Country, there's a good reason those areas are hot real estate.

This. So how are the peoples deer even allowed to be owned and sold or bartered? The love of money, the root of evil.

As long as they call it shooting, and not hunting.

Truth.

I wonder if they collected a few quarts of semen before they offered him for shooting.

Was the deer smiling when he shot it

It was like a war zone at night near my dad's ranch in North Central Texas about 90 miles west of Fort Worth. We lived about 15 miles from the nearest town and it was just a spot in the road. Rarely saw a game warden, but plenty of poachers and spotlighters...

My dad drug a big post oak log across a blind curve in a road one night where he knew some poachers were getting a deer. Only way they had to get out of the place was on this road. Same little butt heads that had baseball batted many mailboxes in the area...They came around that blind curve hauling arse and phugged up there daddy's new truck really bad on that log...They had a long walk back to the highway...

Sounds like a Shart Things hunt.......

lol

one time we were running from the game warden and we were coming up on a curve that you had to slow down to about 30 to make the curve. we were running with the lights off Allan downshifted to slow down as not to hit the brake lights, and we made the curve. game warden didn't and went out into a plowed field. the whole time we were listening on the scanner. Allen did get caught years later on George Strait's ranch, He never gave up outlaw hunting after we grew up and it cost him big time. he lost his guns for that and 6 months locked up.

Dang, yeah, that cost him....I can honestly say I never poached a deer growing up, but grew up around plenty of dudes in High School that most likely did...It is kind of like a right of passage as you said in Texas in the small town areas. Not much else to do for entertainment, and usually tons of alcohol involved...LOL!

I loved spotlighting for yotes and coon hunting with hounds growing up...We shot tons of deer in season too with no problems..I think my dad knew everyone in the whole dang county, or was related to them so I had free rein to hunt tons of land.....Good ole days!...

yeah usually a case of bud or LoneStar and a bottle of jack.

I won't disagree with this Dwayne, but I think it is important to mention that the argument could be made that domestic sheep shouldn't be allowed anywhere near wild sheep, due to the pneumonia scare. There are plenty of wild sheep on private ranches, so should domestic sheep ranching be outlawed where wild sheep exist and those ranchers be required to only run cattle on their private land? Most range permits on BLM and FS lands in the lower 48 come with mitigation measures to minimize the pneumonia risk, but they do at times come into contact on the range allotments so there's that angle to consider too. I am unsure if sheep need any sort of pneumonia test before they can be brought into a new state, though I guess a guy could buy sheep from Plentywood, MT and haul them several hundred miles to The Bitterroot Valley, MT without crossing a state line.

Managing public resources such as wildlife and trying to balance it all with private rights is one of the most challenging things there is IMO. Protecting one person's rights without stomping on another's...

Can’t move livestock across county lines without a brand inspection. Classify high fence and/or farm raised cervids as livestock. Require brand inspections and proof of applicable vaccinations. Seems simple enough. Won’t fix it but would mitigate it at least.

LOL! Had a buddy in High School that I also roomed with in college, and he always had a case of Lonestar Light or Schaefer's Light iced down in the truck. Could always hear a bottle rolling around behind his seat too. We used to call his truck the travelling bar...There was a honky tonk way out in the middle of nowhere that had no problem selling to us minors, contributing to our delinquency...HA!

T Inman;
Good evening and Happy Thanksgiving to you my cyber friend.

Indeed the somewhat famous Vaseux California Bighorn herd was dealt a staggering blow by exposure to tame sheep from which they got some kind of Pasteurella lung infection. In the old days it was a herd that was used to restock California Bighorn into at least 3 states that I can recall off the top of my head.

Same with the Grand Forks herd too, it was infected by tame sheep or that's where the evidence points in my view.

I'm with you 100% that there should not be tame sheep within a fair number of miles from any known wild sheep population. The wild sheep are way too susceptible to disease and we have a choice to have one or the other - not both.

That's likely a bit of a hard line to take considering my contacts in the ranching community as well as an agricultural background and I get that, nonetheless that's where I'm at today.

Happy Thanksgiving and all the best to you.

Dwayne

A high fence, game farm, owned by white people on a rez?



Wowza.

this...... lol

Would seem that's the case.

An inholding perhaps?

Geno, just sounds like a crazy idea.



Half the acres of our local rez is privately owned but no way in hell would I attempt to run a game farm here.
(or anywhere...)


I bet they have guys patrolling and fixing fence 24/7.

More laws and regulations are not the answer in my opinion...especially not if they just "mitigate at least". Why not stop ALL sheep ranching in the west to protect wild sheep?

I don't have the answer but it is thought provoking.

Ya.....I have been on a lot of Reservations.....the Northern Cheyenne, Rocky Boy, Wind River, Blackfeet. Not a deer to be seen other than the Flathead. I couldn't imagine Fort Peck being ANY better.

I come from a long agricultural background, but am a hunter at heart. I see both sides and honestly have no idea where the answer lies.

All the best to you too...

T Inman;
Good evening again sir, I still hope you're well and having a good Thanksgiving.

From what I've read on the subject and based upon where we have wild sheep herds here in southern BC, there's a lot more places where they could run tame sheep as there are no wild sheep anywhere close.

I do agree however that more laws and regulations typically aren't the answer.

That all said though, I'd still like the next generation to have the opportunity to at least go see a wild sheep - still in wild places - if they have a mind to, you know?

Indeed it's thought provoking.

All the best.

Dwayne

We actually have too many whitetail on the river bottom.


Locals rarely shoot does.

River bottom---on the Res? That is surprising to me. Maybe (hopefully) things are changing?

Does are tasty too.

What's wrong with them folks.

buy them, high school boys, some beer, and lend them a spotlight.

Sam;
Happy Thanksgiving and good evening to you my cyber friend, I hope it's been going well so far.

It's interesting what the different FN groups will and won't hunt as a matter of practice or tradition.

Where I grew up in Saskatchewan the Plains Cree would shoot and eat all the black bears they could, but the Okanagan FN folks here who are Interior Salish will not shoot a bear as far as I know of.

Now they've no such restrictions on either sex moose, elk or deer, but interestingly enough don't shoot Bighorn ewes that often, if ever.

Anyways sir more or less I just wanted to say hello and wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving.

Dwayne

Insurance company would love that idea......lol

Ted, all kinds of whitetail. More here on the rez than off.

Does feed all day long out in the open on our hay fields. Not uncommon to see 30-50 in a bunch.

Bucks....not so much....lol




Geno, we let local guys hunt but they gotta walk, no vehicles.

I've tried to get 'em to shoot does but it's a tough sell.





Dwayne, happy Thanksgiving to you as well!

Rez life....it's different.

But we get along.

FFS,

how far they gotta walk to get a doe or two?

And it's a riverbottom, no? Not like it's a scree slope or boulder field.

Sheesh

You haven't looked very hard then. I have lived on two of those reservations, Wind River and Fort Peck, and there were definitely sufficient deer for hunting.

Was married to an enrolled member of the Fort Peck Reservation and could legally hunt there--and did for several years with her grandfather, a noted hunter. Could always find sufficient deer to fill the freezer, even though it was a period with miserable winters, one getting as cold as -58.

Have also hunted on other reservations in the general region, from Montana to Nebraska, after buying a license, for animals from deer to upland birds. The hunting was always at least as good as areas outside the reservations, and sometimes better.

That said, I would not attempt to run a "game farm" on a reservation--but then would not run a "game farm" anywhere.

Geno, short walk, deer everywhere.

We had mule deer does last night in front of my house, in town.





It's all about the buck pics on Facebook. Meat hunters are few and far between.

Lost track of how many headless deer I've found over the years.

John,

Hope you, Eileen, and any four legged critters in the family had a great Thanksgiving Day.

I'd drive up there to shoot does and have a few beers.

Kind of what I was thinking.

Down here in Dixie you can't even keep a whitetail in a fenced enclosure...

In Alabama, keeping a wild animal as a pet is illegal - and not too smart
Updated: Mar. 28, 2019, 12:51 p.m. | Published: Feb. 27, 2011, 3:40 p.m.


By Michael C. Bolton
Fawn-0227-11.jpgA fawn is really cute, but it has no place in a human family. (The Birmingham News file / Joe Songer)
It seems harmless enough. You find what appears to be a helpless abandoned fawn in a meadow. Your first instinct is one of compassion. You take the helpless creature home with you and feed it and take care of it. You name it Bambi, of course, and your friends marvel at what an incredible pet it will be.

Over the past 25 years I've witnessed dozens of well-meaning people make pets of deer, raccoons, gray squirrels, flying squirrels, skunks and other wildlife. I visited a couple that had a female deer living inside their home, another that had a small buck that followed their kids around like a dog.

These stories rarely have fairy tale endings. One family had a fawn killed inside their home by the family dog. Another had a fawn killed in their yard by neighborhood dogs. Others have been forced to take deer away and release them after they became too aggressive. Others have been bitten by seemingly tame raccoons and squirrels.

A wise person talking about keeping wild animals as pets once said that ego plus denial equals death. That may seem a little dramatic, but maybe not. A recent incident in Cleburne County could have had fatal consequences. A 12-year-old boy that had a raised a buck from a fawn in a backyard enclosure was attacked by that buck. The boy was hospitalized with serious puncture wounds.

No amount of human kindness and loving can turn a wild animal into something other than what it is. Owners of such "pets" are often shocked when the animal turns on them, using a behavior that is the animal's normal behavior. Wild animals have short memories when it comes to how kindly that they have been treated by humans.

Keeping native wildlife as pets has been unlawful in Alabama for decades, but it has always been a fairly common practice in rural areas. Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries actually issued permits on a case-by-case basis for anyone keeping wildlife in captivity, but most of those with deer in backyard pens or a squirrel in their home ignored that step.

By 2002 the number of people keeping wildlife in captivity and the problems it was causing was so severe that the state ceased issuing permits. Now, any individual keeping wildlife for any reason is in violation of state law. Only zoos or wildlife exhibits can still receive permits.

White-tailed deer are probably the most commonly illegally kept wildlife in the state and they can be the most dangerous, especially in the case of bucks.

Bucks raised from fawns tend to be peaceful toward their human owner most of the year and likely consider humans one of them. That creates a false sense of security for the human. Certain times of the year it is natural for a buck to fight other bucks and that's when humans are drawn in. Since humans have no antlers or slashing hooves they stand no chance.

If you're considering skirting the law you might want to tune to "Fatal Attractions" on the Animal Planet cable network on Sunday nights at 9 p.m. The show details the lives of humans that have taken in wild animals as pets and the often fatal consequences.

It will make you want to get rid of your goldfish.

Mike Bolton's outdoors column appears on Sundays in The Birmingham News. E-mail him at [email protected].

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And you cant keep an Indian Axis deer either. Interesting how the DNR laws vary from state to state.

That's good to hear.
It hasn't been my experience but I also haven't gone out of my way to actually look for critters on any reservations.

A fair few elk get shot in the Rocky Boy shidt hole. Lots of big bulls there too. If they could restrain themselves and manage it within their special “sovereign nation” bullshidt rules they could actually make money.

But they’d rather smoke meth and shoot elk when they get hungry.

I used to rent a small hatchery, the third oldest in the state, as a matter of fact, that was a private in holding on the res.

It was.....interesting. The people I rented from was a famous out of stater that didn’t even know they had bought property on the Rez until I told them.....

Usually, we deal with the enough agencies to get your fill, EPA, State DEQ, state water resources, corps of engineers on some construction projects.... then add another layer of tribal bureaucracy over the top of it, including TERO. Felt like being back in the old country, regulation wise.

I always thought John and Sam looked alike...

Sheesh,

I don't envy you that.

Love the criticism of high fences.

Guys bait, use stands, blinds with HVAC, use scents. Compounds and crossbows, expanding broadheads, carbon arrows, in archery season. Game cameras, radios, hunt from trucks/ATVs/snowmobiles. Use in lines, sabots,
Even smokeless powder in muzzleloader season.

All legal, somewhere.
Hopefully, where you all do it.

But let some one pay to hunt inside hundreds of acres fenced.
In a situation where a fence never enters the equation, and the
hypocrites climb on their pulpit and display their piety.

Hunted hogs in a fenced operation once.
My biggest complaint was being forced to use a stand.
It wasn't hunting, it was waiting. Then shooting a target.
I could have more engaged in hunting there, if allowed, then
many ever sctually do in unfenced areas.

The point is,
Shut the heck up, and let a man hunt as he sees fit. If it's legal.
If you know he bought a buck shot it in a pen, then claims otherwise,
call him out as a liar. That's fair.

But his buck is as good to him as your "fair chase" buck.
The one fed supplements, crops raised to feed him the best nutrients.
The one genetically manipulated, by systematic culling and even
importing bucks. Then you brag like it was a true product of nature.

Fugg him in the neck.

Dillon,

you make a lot of good points. But in regards to the OPs story, it is not clear as to whether a fence enters the equation or not. It does mention 7000 acres or something, and if not cross fenced and cross fenced again, then it would likely be more of a fair chase hunt ............but just for farm raised, stocked animals.

However, it is mentioned in the story that the fella in question paid, in advance, for THAT particular buck. And the "ranch" guaranteed he'd get it. 100% success rate. Which would lead a person to believe they either have him in a smaller enclosure, where they know they can get to him when the hunter arrives, or they have a tracking collar on him so they can find him in that 7000 acres of theirs.

So I'm thinking a fence of some sort is involved and that hardly seems like "hunting", not even similar to your hog hunt. I'd guess those hogs on that property didn't have to walk under your stand, and you might not have gotten a shot?

And by the way, I hope you had a Happy Pennsylvania Thanksgiving.

Deer season starting tomorrow? Or Saturday nowadays?

Lol

Mechanical broadheads = high fence livestock hunts.

You know my point.
And a comparison isn't a claim of equal.
Only examples in various ideas and pushing the envelopes.

It's about choosing your own standards within the law and ethics.
Ethics being the issue.


That point was exactly what is primitive hunting.
For most today. It's not. At all.
It's another opportunity.
With every technology advantage legal.


Here's one for you.
We used to butcher hogs and beef.
Often had a newbie show up on butcher day.
Most would want to shoot an animal.
Hunters, they had never killed a hog or cow.
Or anything in a pen.
It was the experience, I guess.
But it meant something to them.

That story reminds me of when a good friend of mine bought a Dodge Ramcharger from his father-in-law of questionable reputation.
We were checking it out under the hood when we found a strange out of place toggle switch on the firewall. Well, that tweaked our curiosity and started to check to see what that switch did.
Found out after quite a lot of trial and error that it completely disabled all tail light functions.
We named it the "game warden switch".

The FIL acted like he never knew it was there, Yeah right.

When you say the fence "never enters the equation" you need to qualify what that means. There's a reason B&C doesn't recognize high fence animals.

As in the guy hunting that day, in that place isnt affected in that hunt,
by the fence.
It's big enough that "natural movement" isn't impeded
in a way to contain the animal and assist in the hunt.

A guy forced to sit in a stand, on hundreds of acres, isn't going to use the fence as part
of his hunt.

Sounds like a lawyer!

I always though of it as driving game to a pinch point.
Or maybe sitting on the fence near food or water, using the
fence to force travel. Kinda like how a good hunter does with
natural terrain? Only with an impenetrable fence.

Wasn't like that at all.

But from a B&C standpoint,
You can't risk the fence being used as a corral.
And unnaturally controlling predators, genetics, food, minerals,
all impinge on the integrity of a record book created for ranking
wild animals.

How to deal with the various public and private
schemes to manipulate genetics and nutrition on unfenced deer,
is something on one wants to think about. It would impede interest,
and an enormous flow of money.

There is also the legitimate argument that no matter what people
do, wild animals with free range aren't "controlled".
Results aren't a given.
True. Beyond a shadow.

But, if control isn't desired or being intended,
they why all the efforts?


Thing here is I'm not a big proponent of fenced hunts.
Did it once. Would do it again.
But it's like Dutch's talk of stocked ponds.
Who wouldn't enjoy catching a catfish from a friends
stocked pond/lake/water tank, and frying it for supper?
All the while knowing it's just not the same as fishing
a river.



The whole point of the first post was,


"Why in the Hell do guys worry so much about someone,
somewhere, hunting in a way they personally dont?"

If it's legal and ethical in the place they do it, IDGAF!
Even if it's not, I'm not the Worlds Possum Cop.

IDGAF either. But to say that high fences don't change things is not accurate IMO.

I totally agree. What is, and what is not "ethical" though varies widely and is often the source of these disagreements.


This isn't directed at you Dillon....but to the thread in general.
The deer in the OP sounds to be a totally pathetic canned hunt deal. I won't say the ranch's business model is "wrong", as I just DGAF however not all high fenced hunts are that way. A classic example is when I spent 4 days inside a somewhat small fenced area in Argentina in 2013 hunting fallow deer. I believe it was around 3000 acres. There were holes in the fence that allowed some critters to come and go, but that is besides the point. I spent 3 days before I even saw a fallow deer, and finally on the 4th day I killed a young buck. Nothing special. It was a pretty tough hunt, despite being guided IMO.

Contrast that to the DIY dall sheep I killed this past August...yes I hiked my ballz off, but the critter was way easier to outsmart and other than the physical aspect, the hunt was WAY easier.

There's lots of ways to look at these things.

BIG difference in that Argentina hunt and what the OP hunt appears to be.

I bet the outfitters down south didn't have you pick your fallow deer, pay for it, then guarantee you'd be able to take it................100% guarantee as I recall.

But, if a dude, or gal, wants to spend $20K for a set of antlers they like, maybe I don't care if they shoot it or by it from an antler merchant.

I do have this tendency to believe it shouldn't be called a "hunt" though. Leave that language out and I'm ok................mostly.

You'll get no argument from me on that Geno.....but that is why I specified: "The deer in the OP sounds to be a totally pathetic canned hunt deal. I won't say the ranch's business model is "wrong", as I just DGAF however not all high fenced hunts are that way".

I was responding to some posters who were indicating that they felt all high fenced hunts are easy and unethical.
I most certainly have never "picked" an animal out, paid for it then got a guarantee to kill it. It just isn't how I roll.

I do know of one BC outfitter who (back when they could hunt griz) had I believe 1 griz on their quota and had game cam pics on his phone of the bear that whoever his client was for that year was going to hunt. I guess there was no guarantee his client could kill that particular bear, but that was how he sold his bear hunts. I was talking to him at a trade show when I was trying to decide on where to go in Canada for a mountain caribou/griz combo hunt. It didn't interest me at all.

some of the high fence ranches down here are huge, I've been on 80000-acre high fence ranches doing oil field work.

For me and my perspective alone,

I don’t hunt because I need meat. I hunt because I relish the experience. If all I wanted meat I could plug a doe I in my yard any given day with a .22. Or buy a steer/pig and feed it out. Turn it loose and say “Remember Goliad!” when I blew its guts out.

I’d absolutely go someplace and get hammered drunk around a campfire then go out and shoot a pig. I don’t give a fugk. That’s just hanging out with buddies and shooting things. Which is fun. And I have more respect for a guy that does that at a hunting camp than I do the guys that buy hunts at high fence operations.

A non fair chase hunt inside a high fence just doesn’t do it for me. Sorry not sorry.

Not debating the “legalities” or the conservative bona fides of somebody with money to burn. Have at it. But own it.

Billy and T,
We don't disagree.

Before I went with my Dad and a few of his old friends on that hunt,
I had a 100% negative opinion of them.
Now, it's about 25%. On the good ones.

The deer for sale in the OP?

That's at the bottom end of the spectrum.
Both the hunt and the amount someone would pay.

But, as to my 1st post.

Their show, its legal, its his money.