After watching the absurd panic... on this site... by a pack of old ninnies... over the Rona... for the past year and a half... I am going to again explain "Getting your finances in order" via Transfer on Death and Pay on Death.

OF COURSE THIS IS GONNA PISS LOTS OF FOLKS OFF... because panicking about dying of the flu has become the #1 topic of discussion amongst most "allegedly" conservative, freedom loving gun/hunting enthusiasts... vs. being ACTUAL conservative, freedom loving gun/hunting enthusiasts

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My dad passed from Congestive Heart Failure in February 2020... he did NOT arrange his finances well. My mother was still alive at the time, but had Pamcreatic cancer... so I became the Executor of my father's estate in lieu of my sickly mother.

23 months later... and $10,000 in fees, fines and penalties later... I am still dicking with Henrico County and the Commonwealth of Virginia... EVEN THOUGH my father's will way very specific that 100% of everything went to my mother.

FYI, good lawyers and financial people have been involved every step of the way. I am semi smart... and my BIL is a Senior VP at a major investment firm with an army of Estate and Probate people available to help. The Estate value is modest (about what I suspect many of y'all have)... BUT THE GOVERNMENT MEAT HOOKS are unrelenting in feeding their coffers with stolen money via fees, fines and penalties. This saga will exceed two years... maybe 3. My dad had a great Will and a great Trust, but still he/his Estate got snared.

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My mom passed in Septemeber 2020... 100% of her assets were Transfer on Death and Pay on Death to myself and my sister. Again, I was the Executor. The moment she died... her Estate became penny-less. The Probate Clerk/Judge closed out her case in under 1 minute (...and 30 seconds of that minute were spent on condolences over our loss and remarks over my mother's good standing in the community).

Bottomline... get your chit in order. If you don't know how... find someone that does.

And stop talking about the damn Rona 24/7/365.

For fugg's sake... live you life and love the life/time that you have.

Thank you. I will look into those options.

Did you wear a mask in to see the probate judge? This scheit is REAL, and extremely life threatening…. Be safe out there guys.

That's a rather common method used for cash assets, most bankers recommend it for those that take a few minutes to ask.

Simple and painless.

But how about your real estate deeds?

A "Ladybird" deed offers about the same as a "pay on death" status does for a bank account.

They are valid in very few states but West Virginia is one of the states that do recognize them, Florida is another.

When you pass your deed instantly transfers to the additional name you have on your Ladybird deed.
Prior to your death whom ever you listed on the Ladybird deed has zero power and holds zero liability.

Pay on death is a similar option.

LOL... the one time I have had to don a mask was to get thru security at the Henrico County Courthouse... it came off after I was thru the magnetometer and around the first corner. I was more naive to this chit back then and capitulated.

Wells Fargo doesn't do Pay on Death.

Not all States recognize TOD.

Know your State laws and know what your financial institutions will and won’t do.

This isn’t as simple as presented in the OP.

No diss meant.

You are kidding? Right?

We met with a law firm that does this stuff four years ago. Recently had another law firm tweak it a bit.
Lots of people let this stay undone until it’s to late.
The government loves them kind.

Without getting into the legal weeds (OR giving legal advice)... that is not actually true.

Let's say I have cancer and know I am going to die... I have $200k in my Wells Fargo account and two heirs. I then create a second Wells Fargo account and transfer $100k (1/2 the money) into it.

Then I add heir #1 as a co-owner of the original account (heir #1 must sign to be added).

Then I add heir #2 as a co-owner of the new/second account (heir #2 must sign to be added).

When I die... Heir #1 and Heir #2 take over the accounts... DONE!

POD or TOD forms are issued by the financial institutions for free and do not require a lawyer or probate for eligible accounts. It is a very nice option if your state allows them.

Yep.

I’ve got Transfer on Death on all of my financial assets. I’ve got a Beneficiary Deed on my house. I’ve got Beneficiary Deeds on my cars. Phuuk the Probate Court; this takes all of it out of their hands.

I’ve made my Probate Estate as small as possible; the only thing in my Probate Estate is my personal belongings inside my house (like clothing and furniture, etc.).

Death and taxes. Don't leave a mess for your family to clean up. While you won't care, it is a HUGE PIA for those who survive you. As stated - Know the tax laws in your state.

Sad how much of your work and savings will be confiscated by both the state and federal thieves.

My parent's had two real estate properties. One was a standard Married Deed and the other was a Trust.

I had a lawyer draw up a TOD deed on the house. The property TODed to my sister the moment my mother passed. No Capital gains when she sold it... nothing. Done and done.

Same lawyer reviewed the Trust on the other real estate. Since I was named the second Trustee (after my mother)... the Trust became my responsibility the moment my mother passed. Again... done and done.

Cost me a few hundred dollars for the Deed and review. Recording the TOD deed was a few hundred dollars as well. Done and done.

I guess I am one of those " Old Ninnies at 78. My lungs are only working at 80% because of asbestosis and I have heart problems. I am not afraid of death,but pulmonologist and cardiologist tells me it won't end well if I contract Covid. So yes, I am careful and have all three inoculations. Presently I am battling a upper respiratory and sinus.Probably caught it from someone who would not follow good health protocols.

I have had POD or TOD on all my finances for 30 +years. Yea, I would like to see all COVD threads under one forum.I get tired of everyone saying getting innoculations are stupid and yet 90% of the people in hospitals with Covid are unvaccinated. I'd say they are the semi-smart ones.

Yea, it's real. I have attended 6 funerals this past year because of it

Wells Fargo said, "we don't do that". That's a lot different than a small local bank asking if I'd like to include a name to my account for POD.

Wellsfargo in Florida had no problem doing it with my accounts in Florida.

All real nice IF it’s legal in your State.

Exactly...

My Will states that all of my used socks and underwear are given to the former Democratic Governor... he is listed specifically by name.

I'll let that dumbass sort it all out after I am gone!

I am unsure what state you live in, but are Trusts not legal there?

I was speaking of the continued references to TOD.

To my knowledge Trusts are legal in all 57 States that Obama visited on the campaign trail.

Again... I am not sure what state you are from... but with the name Houston (maybe Texas?).

TOD in Texas is like a 5 second Google Fu exercise...

https://texaslawhelp.org/article/transfer-on-death-deed-todd-information-and-answers

Cash;
Good morning to you my cyber friend, I'll begin with sincere condolences for your loss.

Thanks for the informative thread, as I've mentioned on numerous occasions, encouraging others to have proper and complete estate planning is a bit of a life mission with me. I've come to believe that having well done exit documents is the least selfish thing we can do for those who we care for that will be left behind when we've shuffled off.

It started with me when we were involved in transfers of the financial matters with both of our Moms when both of our fathers passed within a year of each other.

They had decent wills and up here at that time the transfer of all estate property went to the surviving spouse without any wrinkles. This was nearly 20 years ago.

As both of our mothers aged, became dementia patients and required 24 hour care, we were able to facilitate that as we had been named co-signers on their bank accounts and had what's known as a Representation Agreement up here along with a Power of Attorney. It used to be that a POA was all that was needed to make enable medical decisions to be made on behalf of the named individual, but it seems that changed here and now the Representation Agreement is required as well.

That said, we were advised by a couple different financial advisors to make sure there was less than $30,000 in total in all accounts in their name when they passed, even though we were named as co-signers.

We did that and had no issues with the Federal Government or any other coming in for probate fees.

We've both had friends who went through years of grief when the wrong person was named as executor and/or the assets were still in the deceased's name when they passed and probate took place.

Your advice that the gentle reader needs to know what the rules are in the particular state that the person's involved reside in is spot on. I'd opine that any Canuck folks reading this check with their province and honestly go talk to a lawyer who specialized in estates and wills.

Just as a pre-purchase inspection and title/lien search on a new to you vehicle is money well spent, so is talking to a lawyer before hand. That's been our personal experience for sure and certain anyways Cash.

Oh, to any who'd ask, we do practice what we preach at our house and have current wills, POA, RE and contact information for all banking, investments, gun safe combinations, etc and etc.

Thanks again for the thread sir, again I can't encourage folks enough to get this life chore taken care of.

Happy New Year to you.

Dwayne

Failing to plan is planning to fail.

It's true about anything.

Many states do allow it. Some states do not.

If one has assets in multiple states he better known and not guess or take for granted that what is posted here is Gospel across the spectrum.

You can Google fu that very quickly also.

Another consideration might be the use of LLC’s.

Again, Cash, I mean no slam at what you posted as it’s very relevant information.

Got it... some do and some don't... but all allow Trusts. Seek legal counsel (or self education) and get your affairs in order.

Didn't I not say that previously?

Or do you just like to hijack threads and argue nuance without specifying actual factual information. Please clarify your LLC advice if you know that topic well.

It is probably worth mentioning that being the financial power of attorney for someone after they die doesn't mean a thing. Financial accounts are frozen unless it is a joint account.

Maybe I missed it, but what's the difference between Transfer on Death vs Pay on Death?

Great Point... Thanks

Cash accounts pay on death, deeds and titles transfer

We had a local lady that passed in November.
Neighbors are fighting to get ranch.
Mom had execute a beneficiary deed to estranged daughter.

Mom did not include daughter info. Lawyer who drafted beneficiary deed had passed himself, secretary said they did not have daughters info.

Was a bit of drama of neighbors racing to detective the daughter.

She found the obit in the paper and is now dealing with it.

TOD, TODD, POD and Trusts are all kind of an aggregate stratify to keep .GOV for stealing money that you want to leave to your wife, kids, friends, hunt club or whatever.

Some terms are interchangeable and some are not. Self education or legal counsel is recommended to know more. Google can be very helpful as a start.

Good luck.

At the risk of over generalizing, POD are generally bank accounts and TOD are as mentioned plus brokerage accounts independent of IRAs in both cases. IRAs already have a beneficiary form as do insurance policies and annuities/401k/etc....

All POAs are revoked at death as pointed out. Which is in contrast to trusts. Not all trusts are created equal in the eyes of necessary or not necessary probate. A living trust for example will avoid probate, but the ever popular pushed by attorneys Testamentary Trusts will need to go through probate. I bring this up in spirit of the OPs thread of avoiding probate if possible.

Don't buy into "probate isn't that big of a deal" as many attorneys will espouse. How about during this pandemic when you couldn't get on the probate docket for months. Stuff like that can happen and is evermore the reason to avoid it if possible in my opinion.

Great add on Sir... Thank You!

FYI... regarding my sister's TOD Deed on the Real Estate home. My attorney was quite adamant that it be a TOD Deed and not a Quit Claim. My sister was quite mad at me over this (again... he husband is a Senior VP with a large financial firm so they thought they knew best).

In the end... the TOD was best.

IIRC... Quit Claim deeds cause downstream drama for the next buyer? Or had tax implications? Not sure on what I was told (or remember) specifically... but the TOD Deed was flawless transfer in the end.

My sister was even groused at me at mom's funeral about what "I/She had to do now/next?"

I said "Nothing... house is yours and in your name (gave her a Death Certificate as backup)... and I prepaid the utilities and taxes for 3 months until you can decide what you want to do with it".

I was/am a good Executor... I do/did what my folks asked.

You guys that are facing this chit... think it out ahead of time... PLEASE!

No hi jacking occurred here. Apologies for your taking obvious offense to my part of the this discussion that you initiated.

LLC’s can be very effective tax savings devices for heirs and is a bit long to go into here. A person would need the services of a skilled tax/estate attorney for the crafting of it. The terms requires strict adherence. You could probably Google fu that one, too and get a flavor of how it could work as it would concern sizable estates of which yours may or may not be.

Having said that I’ll not risk “hi jacking” your thread any further.

Have a Happy New Year.

If you live in a state that's going to fugg with your finances when you die, WHY ARE YOU STILL LIVING THERE?

I don't know that it is necessarily that the states are messing with your finances rather than clearly proving who is the rightful beneficiary of a deceased person's assets. Most states are pretty straight forward and it isn't difficult to make things much easier as the OP is pointing out if these tools are available to you.

Probate is another way to prove the lineage of ownership. Probate comes from the Latin word "Probare." It basically means "to prove" which is the function of the Probate Court. TOD, POD, trusts, beneficiary forms, etc...are written proof of how the assets are disposed which is why they avoid probate. Wills come into play if you don't have those things thus the requirement to "probate" the will.

You can have all the aforementioned documents and it may be a good idea to also have a will as general cleanup for something you might have missed. Stuff happens and you don't want to die intestate (without a will) because then the probate judge has to figure out what needs to go where after the attorneys battle it out plus the process is public in many states.

How does the trust thing work. My dad has his [bleep] in a trust for we 3 worthless bastards. Taxes? It's well over a million.

I'm just going to throw out that estate planning or financial advice on the internet is worth what you pay for it.

It isn't that expensive to hire an estate/tax lawyer and square stuff away ahead of time.

If you have any real assets at all, is money well spent.

My wife's parents put her name on every single account they owned (some as co-owner, others as ITF "In Trust For" which is same as TOD, to assure none tripped the IRS limits). Ditto the house. Once they passed, the only thing she needed to do was present the death certificates to the bank to legally close the various account "by all owners" and sell the house.

As OP stated, it's all about pre-planning. Find/hire a good estate lawyer who will advise where/how to "draw the lines". That $2-3K will be a small percentage of probate costs, which you should be able to entirely avoid.

I'm only asking cuz my dad doesn't care. Like he says, I'll be dead I'll let you kids deal with it. I'm looking at the tax issue. He's got alot in the investment side of it.

I don't know this area and looking at advice so I can start looking into so we are not paying 40%in a death tax.

Saving money is never bad

We found out Florida doesn't recognize an Indiana will.

Good post King.

Had mom do this after dad passed a few years ago. She passed in April last. Everything was either POD or TOD. Seamless. Very easy for the family going through grief. It's the least you can do to ease their burden and literally takes seconds.

Joel, I think the threshold for estate taxes is 11 million. Not many of us will hit that mark. There will be taxes if you're cashing out pre-tax investments. Or you can roll most of those over. PODs and TODs are easy to do and doesn't affect his current asset position.

Not knowing ANY of your particulars... I would be unable to give any useful opinion.

BUT... if you dad has $1.2m in cash, stock, bank accounts etc. set up three Co-Owner accounts of $400k each... when he dies each account instantly goes to each surviving owner (i.e. you and your siblings).

If it is $800k and a house... two of y'all get a a co-owned bank account at $400k each and the other get a TOD house.

Again... this is VERY VERY broad brush stuff and quite possibly very wrong on your particulars... but it could be a template for keeping the money grubbing .GOV fuggers away from your dad's money.

If you dad won't talk about money or final disposition of stuff (like my dad would not)... you are screwed and .GOV will be slamming some real coin.

Hire a professional for real and useful information... my opinions could be VERY WRONG FOR YOUR PARTICULARS.

Good luck.

Thank you.

Do you know my dad? .,lol his house is 800+ but only has about a million in savings/ investment. He's pretty open to me so I got a good idea on true numbers.

He had a financial lawyer and I will ask him if he still has him retained. He thinks the trust is good enough but I know it's not

Estate planning??

Pfffft, a Walter Brennan movie is coming on.

good thread bump lol

In Tennessee you better have Durable and Medical Power of Attorney, and as has been said that ends with the last breath.

TOD and POD are very important and new tax laws say a trust has to be in place for 7 years to keep the government from coming back on the recipients if Health Care (nursing homes and such) are an issue..

Have a chitbird younger brother that the folks put though law school, he got pissed when a grand parent passed and he did not get his way with their stuff, so he quit communicating, (for 20 years). Oldest brother is a Dr. who thought he should be the next in line to handle their finances, but they chose me, the concrete finisher. I have some friends who are attorneys and I crafted their will such that if younger brother came back around and was a family member he would share in the distribution, but if not, I had the basic amount that would satisfy any claim written in and since he never did show up, not even for his Mother's funeral, he got the check and the letter and had to take or not get anything. I dispersed the funds and opted to take land in lieu of cash, which everybody agreed too then, now they wish they had not, but hindsight is 20/20 and karma a bitch.

Guys... I was honestly just trying to help when I posted this.

.GOV is adamant about fugging you to pay their salary... and other finger up your ass BS...

Do the right thing and get the big Probate Court Bypass DONE... I am 23 months of hell settling my dad's Estate.

I LOVED my dad... he LOVED me... .GOV is fugging me like a Oregon hipster...

FYI... you are going to die sooner or later... don't fugg your kids. PLEASE

Cash, you make a good point. Serious question...what are the taxes/costs? Lawyer, court expenses, taxes? Or something else?

A lot of truth in this post of what we have seen far too often over the years. It was a great day in Texas when they allowed TOD on brokerage accounts. I have fought with attorneys for years here trying to gaslight people into thinking probate is a breeze. The attorneys love it and it can be greatly avoided.

There is another big issue that we see a lot that has nothing to do with probate, but is about as big of a hassle. That is electronic passwords that your surviving spouse or kids might need and they cannot find a list if one is even kept. I personally use MSecure which will sync automatically with my wife's iPhone. She isn't as disciplined as I am about keeping them updated, but it has been a big time saver for both of us to be able to access them securely.

Something happens to me and she is able to access anything of importance without being locked out.

I kinda self-educated myself... then I hired a good local lawyer to do specific deeds etc.

In the end under $1k... maybe $600... I would have to check.

Friendly and GENTLE advice for those reading this... look at the/my previous posts on this topic... read them twice if need be... most of the "template" is already discussed.

NOT trying to be rude... lots of good info already discussed.

I will take a phone call if that is helpful... drop a PM.

Really really... ONLY trying to help. Death is pretty serious stuff... PLEASE do what you can to get ahead of it.

We have an irrevocable trust and everything we own of value is owned by the trust. We are on a three year cycle that updates the medical portion in year one, the financial portion in year two and a complete reissue at year three. It is kept current as laws, our needs, etc., change. We pay an annual fee to manage it. My three sons and ourselves met with our attorney, whereby he clearly explained the trust to them, how it works and their eventual role with it. We are very comfortable with our arrangement.

Cash, you are indeed bringing up a topic we all need to pay more attention to

Quick Updated...

February 29, 2020 my dad passed...

I am his Executor...

I am STILL weekly having to provide the Probate Courts audit and spending records (the latest request... postage mailing stamp receipts (less than $5) on correspondence over settling his Estate.

So far beyond absurd this has become... it isn't even ridiculous anymore.

Why... Probate justifies a job and collects fees on every audit request.

DO NOT GIVE ME ADVICE!

The Estate is modest like most of you may have (under 1/2 million)... 100% of everything went to his wife (my mother).

If you hate your kids or heirs do NOT set up TODs, PODs and Joint Checking accounts before you die so they have to go thru this hell for years.

If you love your kids or heirs DO set up TODs, PODs and Joint Checking accounts before you die so they do NOT have to go thru this hell for years.

My dad loved us, but no one warned him... like I am warning you.

oops typo... Feb 28, 2020

All our bank accounts, vehicles, home are in both my wife's and my name. I have been executor in 3 deaths in my family.I made sure all accounts had TOD on them.I have never gone thru probate