Discussion/ debate, from the Bible, on whether or not the majority of people are saved (going to heaven).
12:48

AFTER listening, what is your opinion?

Didn't listen, but the answer is "no".

What do you think about that? Is there a Bible reference or reason for that answer Tyrone?

Matthew 22 is a pretty good indication and pretty accurately describes prevailing attitudes.

Matthew 22
https://thekingjamesversionbible.com/matthew-22

The wedding parable. Yes, that's a great illustration.

"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. " (Matthew 7)

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

I don't know what that has to do with this subject, but has anyone considered that there are those without "beams in their eyes"?

Saved, from what?

What part of "Straight is the way and narrow is the gate and few there be that find it" did you miss?

Only about 30% of the worlds people claim to be Christian, and even among them there's no universal agreement on the requirements for salvation.

Eventhough Happy Queef has me on ignore.

Saved from sin and the wages of sin, which is death in hell.
It's an uncomfortable subject, but I would be unloving if I avoided it.

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Revelation 20:14, 21:8
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

That said, how many people would someone caught killing, reported in the Sunday paper, have kill to be considered a murderer?

Well all going to hell with Billy, Happy Crappy, Turnip Truck and Anderson.

Believe it's 62% that are fully vaxed now.

Ye must be born again.

We don't agree on much I suspect, but I will give credit where credit is due. That is some clever trolling. In a troll thread, nonetheless!

Happy Camper


Thank you for your tireless efforts to add value to the website.

Yes, and I'm envious; he pulled down two Beaver Awards.
Outstanding accomplishment !

So are they going to Hell, or does the Vax save?

comedic value.

Is Billy Graham in hell for eternity or will he be let out on parole at some point?

30% of 7.9 billion people is 2.37 billion people, currently living people who…as you asserted…profess to be Christian. That’s a pretty huge number, especially when one considers that it all started with a tiny and despised, illicit sect in the armpit of an empire, that followed the teachings of Jesus, and that during the first 300 years of its existence, they were pretty much always subject to oppression and open persecution throughout the Roman Empire.

Yet they still continued to gain adherents among both Jews and non-Jews throughout the Roman world. Adding those who’ve died who professed to being Christian to your numbers above, and you have an even greater number than those already mentioned. Jesus predicted that His movement would spread all over the earth and outlast the Roman Empire, and that it would change the world. At the time, His prediction must have sounded outlandish to even his closest followers.

But here we are, over 2,000 years later, and the Roman Empire exists only in history books, while Jesus’ movement is still goin’. His message clearly offers hope to “a great multitude that no one could number.” Thanks for pointing out some significant and impressive numbers antelope_sniper.

Piker

30% is not "most". About half of those are Catholic and plenty of Christian will spout all the reasons they believe Catholics are not "Real Christians" and going to hell.

Still, none of that negates a single word of the facts that I referred to. His message isn’t the problem.

Nor does anything you claimed negate my response to the question in the title of this thread:
Are the Majority of People Saved?

Math is Math. 15% or less is not "the Majority"

”Negate”…? I was appreciative that you pointed out some pretty significant and impressive numbers. Thanks again.

I'd certainly say the odds of a Muslim being saved are greater than Jag (a self proclaimed Christian) paying his bet

Our founding fathers were pretty smart in giving us the first amendment. A lot of people don’t get it but freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

It hasn't helped us much in the fight to be free from the religion of Global Climate Change.

His alleged followers.........

No, but 100% of truthful believers in Christ are.

I laughed

👍
Good point reivertom.

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
I John 5

The Word of God is the record.
One either believes on Christ to save them, or they are adding Him to their "good works". If they believe on Christ, they have life and if they don't, then they don't have everlasting life.
That's how I see it.
Is that what you believe?

Happy Crappers stupid posts.

The unhappy noncamper is satan is disguise.

Amen.

Salvation appears to be a Theology of Fear.

Reward and punishment: Have 'faith in Jesus' in order to be saved, if not, you are eternally damned.

Wrong DBT.
"Reward "would be earning your acceptance with God due to YOUR good works. The only thing God owes you or can reward you with is punishment for your sins.
Since His Son was nearly beaten to death in extreme torture, then nailed with spikes to suffer the torments of everyone's sins, He was rewarded with the death we deserve.
He offers not only a full pardon, but forgiveness.
Free for the asking.
Only a fool would turn that down.

Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

So by extension, if none of it is true no one is Saved.

Hippie's a great Christian.
He'd be right at home in the employee of Tomás de Torquemada.

Didn't watch the video, but according to the most recent Pew Research survey the answer is a resounding NO.

Jesus said there would be few that follow the straight & narrow route, so I say no. I can't say whether anyone is saved, reprobate or in between. It's between them and God.

Do all the millions of races of space aliens have the same God? Same Bible? Did Jay Zus go to all of them? Do they all have their own heaven or does every being have to share just one?

Pascals Wager is flawed for a number of reasons. Morally, Ethically, what it says about the character of God, etc...

What if someone is fallable, incapable of good works, exploitative, selfish, greedy, yet has great faith in Jesus?

Or someone who has no 'faith in Jesus' yet is a great humanitarian, engaged in helping those in need and is doing their best to build a better society?

The former is saved while the latter burns in hell?

The God of Love seeks to instill fear?

God might be an alien, although on the other hand it is alleged that he created man in his own image so therefore he must be an ape - a space ape?

To the superstitious primitives it's an open door to fantasy.

No opinion, but a question: how long have you been a whack-job? Seriously. You're nuts.

I think Jesus is an inspiring figure that we can learn a lot from regardless of what one’s beliefs are. Not all conversations about Him have to involve conversion or church or the Bible or salvation or anything else that typically goes along with these kinds of conversations. Regardless of what people’s thoughts are about Him, He dealt with a lotta the struggles that we deal with every day. And he made friends with people who were nothing like Him, and they made friends with each other because of their love for Him.

There are other expectations and understandings of Jesus than what many people typically currently have. I think it’s likely that many people are open to exploring more about Jesus…not religion and all that it entails…but Jesus period, and many more likely think the world would be a better place if His teachings were actually lived by many more of those who profess to be His followers, and by those who don’t.

Some minor adjustments so we can agree....

How moral is a blood sacrifice as a condition for forgiveness? How moral is a conditional salvation based on faith, expecting a conviction in the absence of evidence?

People? as in physically alive?

0% are saved.

Kent

I don't know about saved, but the majority of people who I have met lack common sense.

Exactly right. Works don’t save anyone, only believing in Jesus Christ sacrifice for your sins and resurrection will save you.

If only it were that simple:

So you see this as being moral and just? Saving an arse*hole because he has 'faith in Jesus' is preferable to saving a humanist who strives towards a higher standard of morality?

I'm glad that you understand God's grace LBP!
Who led you to the Lord? Sunday school teacher?

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
That starts with me. None of us are worthy of God's kindness.

I was directed to this O.T. Proverb. 20
"Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?" And...
"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?"

We can compare ourselves to others who appear morally inferior just as we could search and find others who seem to have holiness. However, the proverbs still apply. God doesn't grade on a curve. It's pass or fail. He said to a "holy" man,

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Crappy Hamper is ignoring my question. Inquiring minds want to know.

Is Billy Graham in hell for eternity or will he be let out on parole at some point?

Congratulations on your two Beaver Awards Crappy!

Sounds like a green light for those pedophile preachers out there.

That’s how it works.

"Are the Majority of People Saved?"

Jesus says,

Matthew 7:13-14 “'Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.'"

An atheist pontificating about what is moral. That's rich!

That says nothing about the morality of salvation based on a belief held without sufficient evidence: faith... that saving an arse*hole is preferable over a decent human being because the latter has an inquiring mind that questions, not simply believes. So, I guess that the god of the NT values compliancy over both reason and justice.

No need to pontificate. The bible itself describes what is moral, even while describing its God transgressing these very same principles.....

Given that there are nearly 8 billion people are on the planet, I’m going to say 4 billion of them aren’t honest Christians, or any one particular religion. Therefore, whoever has the religion thing figured out, the answer is no.

No need...but you do it anyway and as a relativist no less!

Now I know you are not a Christian.You have no idea what being a Christian entails.Don`t continue to show what a liar you are.

As opposed to who, Catholic Priests?

God's justice was satisfied when His Son said,
Tetelestai, "It is finished!"
That was the perfect justice of God completed.
The will of the Father was stated by His Son in John 6.
The will of the Father is for you to believe on His Son. He made it free of any effort, since Jesus took care of the hard part.

I've only demonstrated that the Lord deserves ALL of the credit and glory for every salvation.

What is your disagreement?

If the small gate is for those morally and ethically corrupt sinners that accept Jesus as their saviour, it's hardly surprising anyone would what to go through it. Why mix with murderers and pedophiles?

Couldn't they have come up with a better advertisement?

And it came to pass that St. Victor was taken from this place to another place, where he was lain upon pillows of silk and made to rest himself among sheets of muslin and velvet. And there, strokèd was he by maidens of the Orient. For sixteen days and nights strokèd they him, yea verily, and caressèd him.
His hair rufflèd they, and their fingers rubbèd they in oil of olives, and runnèd them across all parts of his body for as much as to soothe him. And the soles of his feet lickèd they, and the upper parts of his thigh did they anoint with a balm of forbidden trees. And with the teeth of their mouths nibblèd they the pointy bits at the top of his ears. Yea, verily, and did their tongues thereof make themselves acquainted with his most secret places.

For fifteen days and nights did Victor withstand these maidens. But on the sixteenth day, he cried out, saying:
"This is fantastic! Oh, this is terrific!"

And the Lord did hear the cry of Victor. And verily, came he down and slew the maidens, and caused their cotton-wool buds to blow away, and their Kleenex to be laid waste utterly.
And Victor, in his anguish, cried out that the Lord was a rotten bastard.
And the Lord sent an angel to comfort Victor for the weekend, and entered they together the jacuzzi.

I'm not claiming to be an authority but I have died and faced judgement and I can say with certainty your choices matter. What I can't say is who determines what is moral. Either there is a universal morality or you are judged on how well you follow the morality you were taught. I suspect it is a combo of those.



According to the born again guy I talked to in college 30 years ago he died for them as well. It's an old thought and boring. If aliens ever come here I think it'll make news for a week and then we'll all yawn, unless they come to destroy us, then we're screwed.

God didn't treat women all that well did he, ever since the Lilith incident

My mom the Sunday school teacher. 😉

That's extra awesome when it's your own parent who has that honor.

Yes Sir.

You ignored the part where I pointed out that the bible itself defines morality. The bible itself describes the attributes of Love, and tells us that God is Love. It is there for anyone to see and read, therefore nobody needs to pontificate, only read what is there.

Why do you ignore this?

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? " (Lamentations 3:38)


Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6, KJV)


"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.'' Proverbs 16:4


The Problem of Evil: "If I could stop a man from raping a child, I would. That's the difference between me and your god." Tracie Harris

God can't seem to do what man does, like writing a book for example.

I’m not at all discouraged or threatened or bothered by the one-sided commentary of the atheists. Their religion and the tenets that it embraces are fine with me, and so is their proselytizing.

The original version of Christianity was vigorous. It was stronger than the steel of the Roman Empire and tougher than their nails. Against tremendous odds a small sect of Jesus’ followers defied that empire and asserted that Jesus came to replace the Jewish Temple; and over 2,000 years later, His movement is still going. So I’m not doubtful at all.

But I do think the church needs to be willing to make changes to its approach. Many people nowadays see the version of Christianity that they grew up with is not well-suited for the sociological and scientific realities of the world in which they live. Changing times calls for changing approaches, to accomplish an unchanging mission.

And pounding people over the head with the Bible is no different than a Muslim leader pounding Christians over the head with the Koran. The Koran carries zero weight with Christians, and they don’t see it as authoritative. And at least half of Americans don’t see the Bible as authoritative either. So over half of em’ aren’t gonna be reached by an approach of “the Bible teaches” or “God’s word is clear” or “the Bible says” or anything else along those lines. They’re ineffective approaches to people nowadays.

I see the New Testament…the very words of the original texts…as an inspired collection of manuscripts documenting events that really happened, as opposed to seeing the whole Bible as a spiritual book to live by. And it doesn’t undermine anything about the Bible. It actually underscores the historicity of the events in those New Testament manuscripts. That’s why I have no doubt that Christianity’s foundation are the events that inspired different writers to document insights, conversations, and events…with the pivotal event being Jesus’ resurrection.

And even though nowadays we wouldn’t know of these events had they not been documented, they were documented hundreds of years before ‘the Bible’ ever existed, and it’s the events themselves…not the record of the events…that launched Christianity. Christianity is the reason ‘the Bible’ was created.

The faith of the first-century followers of Jesus is the enduring version of the Christian faith. The one tougher than nails and harder than steel. The one rooted in events, not a book.

Nobody here is saved...

yet...

Kent

Read Matthew 13:1-23. The parable of the seeds that were sown. Only 1/4 of them reached maturity. Pretty good indication of the answer to your question.

That's a good point.

An absence or lack of religion is not a religion. You, yourself reject all religions, Hinduism, Islam, Shinto, etc, except your own. Does rejecting all other religions make you religious?

Atheism is not simply disbelief in God. Atheism is most definitely a belief system, just as Christianity is a belief system. Atheism embraces its own tenets, just as Christianity embraces its own tenets.

If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour. An absence of conviction is certainly not a religion. We can lack conviction in any number of things, politics, ideologies, etc....Which doesn't make our lack of conviction a religion.

Your claim is patently absurd.

Are you religious because you are not convinced in the reality of Allah or Brahman?

Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary, or seeing evidence for that belief that isn't actually there. And for some reason they think everybody else's mind works the same way, but they have ignore or deny facts to make it line up properly. Faith has been an acceptable form of delusion for some time now - delusion is not otherwise considered a good trait.

religion is a bigger scam than covid

Some people think it’s delusional to believe that there is no God. It’s delusional to believe that the world (including humans) is nothing more than biology, chemistry, and physics. Some people think it’s delusional to believe that we don’t have a body, we are a body. It’s delusional to believe that there’s no free will. Some people thinks it’s delusional to believe that everything about the human experience is determined. It’s delusional to believe in determinism. Some people think it’s delusional to believe that something came from nothing. It’s delusional to believe that first life emerged from no life with no help.

But it’s OK with me what others choose to believe (atheists included). Why does it bother you so much that others choose to believe what they do…? Why does it bother you so much…really…?

As far as Christianity goes, the approach that resonates with me isn’t new at all. It’s modeled on the teaching of the earliest Christian evangelists…the ones who, against all adds…turned the world upside down and fired Jesus’ movement so that it garnered the attention…and ultimately…the participation of the pagan world both inside and outside the Roman Empire.

Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?

If the one true God being banned from a nation is good I wonder when we'll start seeing the fruits of it improving our society? I always see a hint of that desire in any thread that comes up on here concerning God and the Bible. So if you have a desire to see even more of throwing God out of our nation please explain to me when we'll start seeing the good in this.

Damn, Lope!

You were quick on the draw with that one. And poignant too! Lol.

Maybe we need to send Camper a copy of that movie for him to watch.

But, is Billy Graham still in Hell?

You should know about absence of evidence by now. The nature of justification has been explained enough times. If there is no evidence for the existence of a Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, etc, there is no reason to be convinced that any version of God exists. There are as many versions of God as there are believers in God.

And the foregoing, of course, is complete nonsense. The lack of evidence for the existence of Zeus is no evidence whatsoever for the non-existence of an Supreme Intelligence that created the Universe. We know the Universe had a begnnning (which Genesis also happens to posit) and we know that natural selection cannot explain the origin of life (the origin of the coded information which is a condition precedent to biological replication). We know that natural selection cannot explain the diversity of life either for that matter (for a host of reasons). No one posits that "Zeus" is the intelligence existing outside of time and matter which brought into existence time and matter but they certainly do posit the exist of a responsible Supreme Intelligence (God) and the probability His existence is as reasonable, if nor more so, than the competing inference.

Nope...name shifting from Zeus to "Supreme Intelligence" or "God" doesn't alter anything.

We have evidence for the existence of a Universe, but not a God. How the universe came to be (it may be cyclic) is assumed by some to be the work of God, which invokes an inexplicable element - God - as an explanation for something that we don't have an answer.

Zeus and the God described from Genesis to Revelation certainly have nothing but extreme differences from given descriptions.
A simple crayon drawing of a five year old shows evidence of existence of the artist. An automobile likewise has a maker. Why is it when the mechanism is so much more complex that atheism dogma chooses to assign it to chaotic chance and laws of nature?

Crayon drawings are clearly made by someone. The natural world works according to its own principles, nobody has to form stars, form planets, organize their orbits, geology....nobody blows the wind, makes the rain fall, grows the trees or the grass.....these are all natural processes. Physics, energy, chemistry, three billion years of microbes before multicellular organisms evolved, etc, etc....

But, is Billy Graham still in Hell?

That's a gratuitous assertion.

JAG is, because he's a lying POS and has other lying POS standing up for his lying. Thus he is a good Christian.

Your every assertion assumes as true that which must be proven true and which has not been proven true.... But you make one intelligent point: when we see drawings on a cave wall, we infer that they were made by an intelligent being, not random natural processes because our experience tells us that is the most likely explanation. Likewise, when we see the complex numeric code in DNA--a code far more complex than any computer code devised by the mind of man and when we see the unbelievable complexity of the simplest cell (a complexity Darwin could not even begin to fathom)---we also reason: what is the likely source of that complex coded information given that all of human experience tells us that complex coded information can only come from an intelligent source?

If it is patently absurd, then you might consult the arguments of the eminent British philosopher John Gray. He makes the same point: atheism is essentially a faith-based metaphysical belief system. It's simply the negative side of the religion coin and it's not even particularly intellectually defensible. A more honest position (intellectually and factually) would be agnosticism. You're very bit as religiously dogmatic as Happy and Jag, you just can't admit it!

If that is the case, John Gray hasn't got a clue, not about justification, evidence, logic or reason.

Think about it, for example, Muslims make claims about the existence of Allah, without evidence.....what reason do we have to believe in Allah? None. There is no reason to be convinced in the reality of Allah (the Muslim version of God).

If you do not accept the existence of Allah without evidence for His existence, how is that your faith or religion? You must be an extremely religious person given all the things you are not convinced of because they have no evidence.

Not in the least. It's supported by evidence from cosmology, geology, physics, chemistry, the fossil record, evolution....yet no sign of God.

So 9 hours later and no takers on my question? I don't want to argue, I just want the facts so please explain them to me.

The Fool Says in his heart, There Is No God - Ps 14:1
Bible is the only truth in the universe which does not change, if you noticed humanity and the environment changes, we change on daily basis, we change our minds on various things, governments change, human morality changes but God does not, therefore we can hold on to His word as an anchor in this ever changing and unstable world. we may not be able understand the works of God in creation, cosmology, geology, physics, chemistry even fossils, but consider this; how can something evolve from nothing. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. the heavens are much older than the earth and include the whole universe, the earth was created after angels who witnessed it - Job 38. It takes greater amount of faith to believe in evolution that something ignited when there was nothing, then to humbly believe that God is the Creator, Savior and the final Judge.

This is hysterically funny! John Gray---Oxford educated, published extensively, highly regarded, extreme critic of religion and other faith-based ideologies---but stupid. How do we know this? Because some anonymous, wholly uncredentialed poster (DBT) on some obscure gun forum says so! That's called argument by assertion and it's worthless. Read him and tell us, with logic and evidence, why he's wrong. Should be a piece of cake for you. He's only an Oxford Phd!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)

The answer is in and the evidence is overwhelming in your favor: the farther we move from Judeo-Christian monotheism and the parallel idea of a natural, non-sectarian moral order not of our choosing, but to which our behavior ought to conform, the worse the world and socieites become.

Quoting verse doesn't prove the existence of God, calling people fools for not being convinced is just a rationale. Is someone a fool because they are not convinced in the existence of Allah or Brahman?

Argument from authority is a fallacy. I can quote any number of Academics who disagree with John Gray.

There are plenty of academic articles on justification of belief, Stanford, etc.

You need to widen your reading, not cherry pick philosophers you agree with.

I don't agree with John Gray, but he is an atheist who does not agree with you. You're correct: the fact that Gray is an Oxford Phd doesn't mean he's correct. On the other hand, it does point to the absurdity of some anonymous internet cowboy blithely dismissing him with the wave of a hand and the unsupported claim Gray doesn't know what he's talking about. Prove it!

How many cultures and societies have believed in gods, a creator, supernatural entities, etc, yet were violent? History has many examples.

OK, I've had time to look through John Grays work. It seems the problem is not so much with what Gray says, but what you think he says.

The problem lies in your interpretation of Gray. Gray proposes that some atheists place faith in humanism rather than God, not that a lack of conviction is necessarily an example of faith.

It is you who needs to work on your comprehension.

Yeah, but is Billy Graham still in Hell?

I asked the question for the proof of taking God out of our country, the USA. So show me the proof it's working. I'm not interested in other places and times. Just here and now. This also goes beyond violence too. More like a moral decay which covers allot. Proof, not questions to me, that's what I want.

Let's see the evidence of a god.

You might want to educate yourself better on the facts of evolution.

And just remember there are no facts of god. Lack of our ability to explain something doesn't mean a god did it - that's just an absurd statement. May as well have been aliens or magic, with equal credibility.

There are plenty of more secular countries that have lower crime rates and greater life satisfaction if you care to entertain considering beyond your belief.

The show me proof argument is always humerus. Some say God doesn’t exist and prove that he does. I would say God does exist and prove that he doesn’t. It all comes down to faith. You either have it or you don’t and it really is that simple. You either believe or you don’t. This also includes Jesus and the resurrection. It’s an argument that just goes in circles.

The state of a nation, its laws and values, depends on far, far more than just people believing in God.

And I could throw that question right back at you. When has worshipping a God, yours or any other, transformed any society into a peaceful paradise where murder and rape and violence and immorality of every type didn't exist? Answer, never. And one of the main reasons why is that despite what rules these religions write down in a book there are always easy paths to get around those rules whenever the need arises. A common Christian way to make a end run around these pesky rules is to just claim that God gave you a special exemption to do it in this particular case.

Murder is wrong but boy it sure would be nice to have that land the Canaanites are living on. And bam! What do you know God just happens to tell the Israelites at that precise moment that the Canaanites are wicked and it's okay to kill all of them and take their lands. Wow, what nice timing for the Israelites. Of course we have to just take their word that God told them this. But no problem there. I'm sure the same kind of men that could slit women and childrens throats wouldn't lie about why they were doing it. LOL!

It doesn't matter how many times the fallacies are pointed out, they just keep being trotted out as if nothing was said...

I've talked to lots of parents and grandparents who claimed that they lived in neighborhoods decades ago where they could leave the doors unlocked at night and when leaving the house. They wouldn't think of doing that today.
Back then, most people attended Church. There's always been sin as long as there's been people. It's just that cultural norms in the USA have changed to exclude Biblical principles of morality. I had four break-ins this fall. I believe that makes big round number ten over my lifetime.
Anybody who thinks that society moving away from biblical principles is a positive move toward decency, freedom, or prosperity is delusional.

Agreed. I have always said that if the only thing keeping a person from raping, robbing and killing people is the fear of a deity then that person is a piece of chit to start with.

Well put.

You are assuming that violence corresponds with immorality. You are also assuming that an atheist society would be different.

Violence may arise for any number of reasons, scarcity of resources, stratification, power in the hands of a few, royalty, kings, emperors, political ideology, religious hierarchy...look at the power of the church during the middle ages.

Word

🦫

Didn't listen to the video. Don't know about the Majority of People. I am.

Faith is not a pathway to truth.

If that’s what you believe then that’s what you believe. It makes no difference to me. We all have to choose our own path.

"Want" has nothing to do with it. Having "Faith" there's 10 billion dollars in my brokerage account wouldn't make it true.
A billion Muslim hold a faith different than yours. Do that make yours false? If not, how would your faith make their false?

I am of the belief there IS a supernatural creator.

But the challenge to prove that God does not exist comes up against the rule that you cannot prove a negative.

Like how do I prove there are no Ivory Bill wood peckers.

How do I prove there is no extraterrestrial life out there.

Across the board as populations become less religion measures of well being improve.
If we look at per capita income, the more atheist a country the higher per capita income after controlling for human capital, resources, education, geography etc.
The order of prosperity is:

Atheist
Jewish
Christian
Hindu/Buddhist
Muslim
Folk Religions.

The less fanatical the people, the more their core belief system aligns with reality the higher per capita income. Of course it doesn't stop there, same goes for crime, teen pregnancy rate, numbers of abortions etc.
If you want a well research primer on the subject which quotes the relevant studies, I suggest Ryan Cragun's "What you Don't know about Religion {but should}".

And that's why the burden of proof lies with the one making the positive claim.

So you clearly can’t provide the “evidence” that you asserted above.

And instead, you crawfished.



shocker

I don’t see anywhere that I used the word “want”. I just posted about the circular argument of proof where God is concerned. I’m not posting to change anyones mind and they certainly won’t change mine. My belief is just that it’s mine.

Absence of evidence. Without evidence, there is no reason to be convinced. You can speculate as much as you wish.

So when an atheist asserts they have “evidence to the contrary”…exactly like was done above…but they can’t provide that evidence…exactly like was done above…there is no reason to be convinced of their assertion. Got it.

The Apostle Paul spent 30 years of his life traveling all around the Mediterranean rim spreading the Gospel, and he was arrested and beaten and imprisoned and stoned but he kept doing what he was called to do. And he established ekklesias in port cities all along the way as he preached the Gospel that God had done something in the world and Jesus being raised from the dead was proof of it.

And then in his early to mid 60’s he was arrested one more time and taken to Rome, where he was imprisoned when Nero was the emperor. And then one morning they marched him out, and that would be his last morning on earth. Now imagine if we could’ve gone back from nowadays and accompanied him from his cell to his execution right outside the city.

And we could tell him that his efforts to evangelize and spread the Gospel beyond the Holy Land worked. We could tell him that this city that is adorned with icons and statues of pagan gods will one day be adorned with icons and statues of Jesus. And that on the tops of buildings all across this city there will be crosses, and they’re not gonna be crosses that represent Roman crucifixion, they’re gonna represent and remind people of one single crucifixion, the crucifixion of Jesus. And that over there where Nero’s circus is, where he persecutes Christians and allows wild animals to tear them apart, where he crucifies Christians, where he impales them on stakes and puts tar in their hair and lights them on fire to illuminate his gardens…there will be a magnificent building to commemorate his friend Peter, and it will be the most beautiful building on the planet.

And we could tell him that one day, millions of people will come to this city from all over the world, and they won’t ask where Caesar Augustus was buried or if they could visit Tiberius’ palace, they’re gonna ask their tour guides to show them where he was imprisoned. And one day there will be no Roman Empire, but there will be Christian Churches in cities and countries throughout the world. And all of those letters that he wrote and handed to trusted friends hoping they made it to their destinations in Ephesus and Thessalonica and Christians in Rome and other places, one day his letters and teachings would be translated into 1200 different languages and distributed all over the world.

And one day, once a year, people will mention Caesar Augustus…but not because he was the mighty emperor of Rome…he’ll simply be a footnote in the story of the birth of Jesus. And we could tell Paul, before he died, he should know that one day parents will name their children Peter and Paul, and they’ll name their dogs Nero and Caesar. Could he even imagine that this city that was responsible for crucifying Jesus would one day be the capital of Christianity…? Could he imagine that the Roman Forum would one day be ruins, a tourist attraction…? Could he imagine that the Coliseum would be adorned with crosses dedicated to the Christian martyrs who died there during that period of persecution…?

Evidence to the contrary is the evidence we have for natural evolution over special creation.


If the universe is self-forming - stars, planets, galaxies, etc - and self-sustaining. This is clearly not special creation as described in the bible. If life emerged three billion years ago, only microbes for three billion years before multicellular organisms evolved, this evidence paints a picture of natural evolution rather than special creation as described in the bible.

The evidence supports natural evolution over special creation. Then of course, we have the absence of evidence for the existence of a Creator. So not only is faith a belief held in the absence of evidence, but at times in the face of evidence to the contrary.

That’s just using semantics as a fallback position while ignoring the real assertion that was made.



shocker

He missed every part of it because he cherry picks his scriptures.

2 Timothy 4:3 In the last days there will be men who will not put up with the healthful teachings but they will be turned aside to false stories looking for teachers to tickle there ears

How many people made it thru the flood in Noah's time?

What about the “evidence to the contrary” that God does exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus did exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus was resurrected…? And what about the “evidence to the contrary” that natural evolution was the method used for special creation…?

So you want a world where people have to prove a negative rather than proving the positive. So if I were to accuse you of being a child molester and give zero evidence to support that accusation it would still be up to you to provide evidence that you were not a child molester. And if you can't provide hard evidence that disproves my claim then it means I'm right and you are indeed a child molester.

That the way you want the world to proceed? That the standard you want to implement? Because I think that's madness.

It's not semantics. Astronomy and Astrophysics is the study of the Universe on a large scale, we have the fossil record, we have genetics, comparative anatomy, comparative embryology, molecular biology....all providing evidence that supports natural evolution not special creation.

And where is that evidence? Oh and here's a helpful hint before you reply. Fairytales made up by goat herders 2000 years ago who believed in witches; thought the earth was flat; and that the sun orbited the earth is not actual evidence. They're just stories. And every culture and religion has a different set of them.

Absence of evidence where evidence should be found is evidence of absence.

Creation and the flood of the bible are proved false by evidence that verifies explanation otherwise. If you choose to not accept these parts of the bible then that's a good sign of start of rational thought. Fact remains that you still can't prove existance of a god.

Yeah, it's a bizarre mindset of really wanting something to be true but clearly isn't. Facts don't seem to matter.

The creator represented by Christianity in particular is morally and ethically corrupt.

People don’t “have to prove” anything. You can believe whatever it is that you choose to believe, and I’m OK with it. And I can choose to believe whatever it is that I choose to believe, even if you’re not OK with it.The world can proceed with you believing whatever it is that you choose to believe, and I’m OK with it. The world can proceed with me believing whatever it is that I choose to believe, even if you’re not OK with it.

You tell me…? An atheist here made the assertion that he had “evidence to the contrary” regarding what believer’s believed. And when asked for that evidence, he crawfished.It’s OK with me that you choose to believe that. I don’t agree with your beliefs…at all…but I have zero problem with you believing them.

Why are you bothered so much by what other people believe…? Why are you bothered so much by what other people believe…really…?

How can God be banned from our nation…? He doesn’t live in courthouses and public schools and capitol buildings. He lives in the hearts of His followers. A way bigger question to me is, If the one true God lives in the hearts of His followers, I wonder when we’ll start seeing the fruits of it improving our society…? Instead of passing the buck, why don’t His followers simply ‘live’ according to Jesus’ greatest command…? Why don’t they simply ‘live’ according to the Law of Christ…? If the over 205 million ‘Christians’ in America simply and truly did that, it would change the country…we would see the fruits of it improving our society…we would see the good in it.

But truth is a pathway to faith.

I don't know what that has to do with violence, but you have a purely materialistic view of well being.

I haven't seen the study you are citing, so it's hard for me to criticize it, but you could apply the same overlay of geography and come up with nearly identical results.

John Adams and others in his day differ with that statement.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
You still have failed to show evidence that a Godless nation is a good thing.

I disagree with that. Wholeheartedly. Faith is the pathway to knowing the truth about Jesus. I did my own soul searching and my own research. And I’d encourage others to do the same if there’s any interest there. And I found that only when I had a completely honest and personal relationship with Him that it became unquestionably real and true. And faith was the pathway that took me there. I found that there’s something to be said for knowing that truth, and being set free by it.

It looks like atheists and agnostics are interested in the beliefs that challenge their own. However, few took time to listen to
the original audio/video that was originally posted on YouTube by an atheist who challenged my Christian brother Matt.

There was an atheist named Josh who wrote a book that details his Evidence That Demands a Verdict. His story is here.

Well, there is evidence for the existence of God all around us. You either reject it or don’t see it.

Also, as it has been posted before, when the Creator comes to abide “within” the believer, that believer indeed has “proof.”

But, you apparently don’t see and you apparently “don’t have.”

Still, you comment above piques some interest. You state “…. the burden of proof lies with the one making the positive “claim.”….

I think this is nothing but word bafflegab. You may believe that Christians are making a “claim,” but I see it as Christians providing a testimony or witness of our experience.

But, you choose you words carefully and there is one interesting way to look at your post.

Should you be judged….. by a God you claim has not proved His existence….. this God, at your judgment may “play the video tape” of your life and show you literally dozens of times He made His presence known to you…. Only to have you somehow reject the witness.

No one can “argue” you into belief….. Only God can “get you to flip.” I wonder how many times the Spirit has knocked on your door, but you refused to answer the knock. You will say that that has never happened. I would expect that God will show you He knocked dozens of times when the tape rolls.

Your info about proving the flood is dated. The more currant info seems to indicate the layers were laid down in quick succession. Consider the evidence provided by Mt. St. Hellens. The folded rock formations around the world. The volcanic action studied in the Grand Canyon.

Well said TF.
I thought I was the only one who used that Tom Baker term. LoL!

The atheists choose to believe what they will in spite of the overabundance of creation that cries out daily, "There IS a Creator....look at me!".
I think that the religion of atheistic secularism that started with my first library book at age five had something to do with shaping my beliefs with the children's version of Darwin's most popular book. The dinosaur books and church of Evolutionism that I was sent to daily makes me wonder how I was ever able to choose to place my faith in Christ. However, it is all a choice we have been given when presented with those facts about the Savior. Hopefully there are more eyes that see and ears to hear on this forum and in our neighborhoods.

2 Timothy 2:23-26

"But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will."

Yes, that's exactly what I did when I posted this thread.
Matt's discussion with the atheist was so civil, that it was the atheist he spoke to who put it on YouTube for the world to hear. However, anyone who listened to it should be convinced of one thing. You know what that is no doubt.

My recent follow up was the story of a former atheist who had misplaced bitterness against God, blaming Him for what a Reprobate did to him as a child.

Audio book intro:

https://christianaudio.com/evidence...ell-and-josh-mcdowell-audiobook-download

GET YOUR BULLHORN YET?


LOL

You haven't heard anything yet.

Peeker and a liar.

Is Billy Graham still in Hell?

Crappy Hamper is saved!

6/17/20 – HC survives being poisoned by his "girlfriend".
"Good news is that it had a happy ending because I survived. I came within an inch of my life as organ failure set in. I'm grateful that God miraculously brought a vision of charcoal to my mind and where to find it. Then he gave me enough strength to drag myself off my back, get to it and eat it before dying. It absorbed the poison she put in the food and I recovered."

Personally, I'm glad he survived.

You only need to look at history to see that belief in God or gods is not an indicator of peace and harmony. Human behaviour is driven by more than just a belief in God. I mentioned the dark ages and the power of the church.

How is that logical?

I'm glad that you survived the challenges and perils that you've faced too.
Unlike the NVs, you believe that God answers prayer.

Nope, it never happened. There's evidence of populations of people living elsewhere around the world before and after the time of the alledged flood event. Geological evidence dismisses a global flood event.

The people who wrote the bible didn't know that so got caught out on that lie too. The biblical tale of creation is also fiction.

As determined by God or by some self-righteous man?

Your stories come accross as contrived.....essentially, "look what happened to me, it's a miracle of god"

You probably mean well, but bending the truth to achieve an aim often just comes back to bite the storyteller.

I do believe that the blood of Jesus, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. And I do believe that God freely offers salvation to anyone who places their faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus as sufficient payment for their sin.

Saved from what?

Why faith? Why are we expected to believe what is written in old scrolls?

From spending eternity…and not just after death, but eternity including right now and from now on…separated from God. Again, this is my belief.

That is utter horse chit and no actual scientific study shows any such thing. You may find some evangelical spewing some such psuedo science on places like youtube but it's laughable to consider those idiots as a credible source of information.

If it's any consolation, at least believers will likely not be able to experience the dissapointment of their faith in the final moments of consciousness as they die.

Exactly. If there is a god that wants us to believe and follow certain things then why not just appear in undeniable fashion now to the whole world and tell us straight up. Why all this ancient mystery bullchit? Why must I trust the word of 2000 year old goat herders who believed in all manner of superstious crap and thought the earth was flat. People who were ignorant of and wrong about most things concerning the nature of the earth and the universe. If this is the best plan god can come up with to spread the truth of his word then we must have been assigned a seriously incompetent god.

John Adams is part of my nations history. A huge part. To ignore his words is exactly why things are as they are too. Peace and harmony cannot exist as long as there is good and evil. There will always be division. There has to be. Why would someone like myself agree to join myself with someone else that believes abortion is okay? Or that socialism is a decent form of government. Both of those concepts are evil. They are to be opposed and fought against. But back to my original question as far as presenting me with facts that a nation that is Godless is a good nation. I am looking for specific examples, if you have any. Not general references to the past.

I believe that He clearly did exactly that just a little over 2,000 years ago. And it wasn’t “ancient mystery bullchit” then. No mystery about seeing things with one’s own eyes, as those eyewitness did, including those eyewitnesses who were hostile towards Him and remained hostile towards Him even after He appeared in undeniable fashion and told them straight up. You don’t have to. You can choose to believe whatever you choose to believe. You’ve made your beliefs regarding these things pretty clear. As have others. Believers and non-believers both.So the Creator of the universe didn’t go about things the way you think He should have…? Got it. Anyway, that’s what you’ve chosen to believe, and it’s fine by me. Your beliefs are yours, have at it.

Coming from an A-theist that wastes our time on my threads trying to convince everyone that the Bible and God of the Bible are contrived, it's no wonder you think that.
You reject the idea that miracles happen. That speaks for itself.
I speak for myself and yes miracles happen.

Coming from an A-theist that wastes our time on my threads trying to convince everyone that the Bible and God of the Bible are contrived, it's no wonder you think that.
You reject the idea that miracles happen. That speaks for itself.
I speak for myself and yes miracles happen.
Beanman,

Saved from sin and the wages of sin, which is death in hell.
It's an uncomfortable subject, but I would be unloving if I avoided it.

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Revelation 20:14, 21:8
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

That said, how many people would someone caught killing, have kill to be considered a murderer? ...Or any other crime for that matter?

Miracles happen to the superstitious, otherwise they are considered low probability events.

Happy's Prayers

6/13/20 – (HC prays for sockets)
“I had a bunch of rachets, extra too, but was missing some sockets that had cracked and a set similar to what you are asking about with sizes that I didn't have surprisingly. Now I'm not saying this to sell you mine because I need these. I just want to encourage and for you to get what you're looking for.

I asked the Lord specifically as if He were in my shop with me one day for the socket set and mini driver that I needed once in a while for mowers, etc.
Guess what Fireball?
Next thing I know, I'm driving down the road and at the busy intersection near a sport arena. I see something that caught my attention. After pulling into the parking lot, I looked down and saw a bunch of sockets strewn all over the road and a box off in the lot. There were no trucks around or jobs or I would have asked if they lost their socket set and helped pick them up.
I picked them up and put them in the insets of the kit. I was surprised to see that they were all there except for maybe one that I already had a duplicate of!!!”

6/25/20 – (God provides HC with Starbucks)
"The BEST Starbucks ever was not served at the coffee shop.
It was an answer to prayer. A couple months ago.
Not prayer to some impersonal universe or cosmic consciousness, no mantra chanting meditation either....Just asked my Father in the name of His Son, my best Friend.
Went to Kroger's and what did I see on shelf by itself?
A bunch of bags of Starbucks Whole beans......at $2 BUCKS PER BAG! Fresh, not outdated. No issues. Just cheaper than wholesale. Coincidence? I'm sure some atheist will say so."

7/1/20 – (The Lord provides a bat.)
"I've taught wildlife education and I'm also against harmful chemicals.
I taught a class on environmental factors of bats and human interaction. The Lord provided a live bat several days prior to my lectures..... miraculously."

11/16/20 - (God provides HC with kitchen knives)
“You won't believe this, but its true.
I broke an old pairing knife at the thin part of the tang and talked to my Father about it. I wanted something of better quality that sharpens and keeps an edge better. I couldn't find any quality kitchen knives in town and just wanted a pairing knife.
Later that day, I walked to the grocery store.
On the way there, what did I see on the side of the road by itself?
It was something I never would have noticed other than some litter someone threw out their window.
It was a black fabric roll. I opened it and what did my Father give me in a most unusual surprise......FREE but not cheap???
A full set of Hinkle French Chef knives and a steel !!!!!!!
When I got, home, I cleaned them and noticed that they were brand new! God is good!”

Reprobates

Crappy, how does one become deputized to place people on a "reprobate" list?
Do you have a special agent card from the Holy Trinity? If so I'll need to see it and I'll need you to perform at least 3 miracles to prove it's legit.
I know I'm on your list so I'm just wondering if you're really juiced with the big guys or if St. Peter and I are just going to have a laugh at your expense at the Pearly Gates.
You know, like most here do now.

P.S.
I think your a poser.

It's a discussion forum where all members can express their views. Nobody is wasting your time. You can either choose to respond or not...you are not being forced to 'waste your time,"

Didn't the Black Sea suddenly flood many 1000s of years ago at the end of the last ice age when the ocean broke over the barrier and put hundreds of feet of water over inhabited land. The Hebrew bible is not the only ancient account of a catastrophic flood. There are a lot of the bible accounts that have been found to have some basis in the evidence uncovered by archeologists such as the total destruction of Jericho.

"It', does take Faith.

There likely was a localised flood but not a global flood that wiped out all but those on the ark, as the writers of the bible claimed. The story is repeated in other religious sources too - copied from early texts.

Holy Crapper wastes his own time, every time.

Any dude that can predict his own death and resurrection…and pull it off…I’m goin’ with whatever that dude says…!

I just read this book, hard to put down.

But you did not witness any of that. You are taking the word of unknown people from over 2000 years ago that it happened. People whose credibility you know nothing about because you don't know them. People who lived in a time of backwards ass superstition and believed all manner of crap that we now know is bullchit.

Hey man, it’s OK with me that you choose to believe whatever you do. Why are you bothered so much by what other people believe…? Why are you bothered so much by what other people believe…really…?

Nope, I am taking God’s word for it.

See John 14:17 ……

Also written by MEN 2000 years ago who "CLAIMED" they were writting the word of god.

No they didn’t. The men who wrote the separate documents…that were collected and bound together hundreds of years later into what was called, collectively, the New Testament…didn’t claim that. They were simply documenting what happened, what they saw, and what others saw.

Matthew (an eyewitness) wrote about it, Mark (who spent time with Peter) wrote about it, Luke (who said he was going to investigate these things and put them in chronological order so we don’t miss anything) wrote about it, John (an eyewitness who took care of Jesus’ mother) wrote about it, James (what would it take for your brother to convince you that he was the son of God, and your Savior) was an eyewitness who wrote about it, Peter (who ran and hid like a coward) was an eyewitness and wrote about it, and Paul (who knew all of these people) was a contemporary who met the risen Jesus and believed that God had raised Him from the dead based on the eyewitness accounts and the testimonies of those who were closest to Jesus, he wrote about it.

They weren’t writing the Bible. They weren’t writing the New Testament. The weren’t writing “the word of God.” To them, they were simply documenting what happened, what they saw, and what others saw.

God can't write

Yes you are on Reprobate mode with me.
Whether or not you have been erased from the Lamb's Book of Life is up to the Lamb.

Didn't HC win the biggest retard at the beaver awards.

Is Billy Graham still in Hell?

Poor Billy.

Always liked him.

Anything like Hustlers Beaver if the Month?

We have nothing from that Dude. We have what others have written decades later.

If the Black Sea flood occurred, it was a local event and not consistent with the world wide flood of the Bible.

Why do you consider the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ inadequate sacrifice for sins?

John Adams was a man of his time and place, a statesman. His aim was to help build a nation based on the values that he grew up with, Christian values as he perceived them to be, which does not alter world history, which shows that simply believing in God did not make people better or their society fairer and more peaceful.

In the past, most people probably did believe in creation, a God or gods...which did not stop them from acting out of self-interest, being fallible or behaving badly.

Another ten pages from the happy folks... Next?

I understand that, but to the people that survived the Black Sea flood which almost surely happened their whole world flooded and you know oral histories can get somewhat distorted. So there is a historical event that roughly corresponds to the biblical flood and some survivors. As to Jericho there is evidence that a hostile nomadic tribe (Hebrews) besieged and broke through and razed the place. They very well may have been aided by a seismic event at the opportune time. There may have been a fifth column (Rahab's family) in the city acting as Hebrew agents. Who knows what got abbreviated or left out or embellished in the telling but the story can easily be roughly true.

I don't consider that. What put that thought in your demented mind? The TBIs?

7/22/20 – (Best explanation yet for HC’s personality disorder.)
Believe it or not, this happened to me at a mall.
Instead of a hoe, it was a steel "I" beam and security gate chainlink. Free fell full speed with no resistance out of the ceiling directly onto my head. Nearly killed me. This happened the day after I insulted my very smart, awesome Dad. I was arrogant, frustrated and said something unkind to him. This wasn't karma. It was God humbling me, by using a store attendant who purposely pushed the button to drop it on my head.
The medical physicians said that I had no hope of recovery.
The Good Lord (The Great Physician), gave me healing in spite of my sin. I deserved to die that day.
It's not supposed to happen but my brain works now. Some would say otherwise and might be right.
Couldn't remember so much as a 7 digit phone number from the page to dial.... after studying it a while.

What do you think that is required of you to be saved?

The problem was that it was grossly exagerated as a narrative to support their story. Shows another failure of god and raises again the issue of incest.

Saved from what? Life's tough and it even tougher when you're stupid.
RB

It's called a discussion forum. This is a topic being discussed. If you are being forced to participate against your will by some armed individual just type "Help Me" and hit enter. Hopefully we can get someone over there to assist you.

You may not understand John 14:17….. God comes and abides with and within the believer. When that happens, there is no doubt.

The witness within of the Holy Spirit is powerful.

Well there are 4000 recognized religions on this planet and all of them have members who believe just as powerfully as you that they are on the one true path. Yep, no doubts in their mind at all.

And yet simple deductive logic tells you that 3999 of them have to be wrong. So much for the accuracy of powerful feelings.

And here's some people providing a testimony or witness of their experiences being abducted by aliens:

One major difference between the world religions and Biblical Christianity is the following.

Religions require the works of the individual to be the means of salvation.

Biblical Christianity has the works completed by the perfect sinless Sacrifice. He obtained salvation for all.
The choice to receive that gift is making Jesus the Object of your faith. You trust Him to save you because He is the Savior Who gave Himself for all sins.

Exactly right, Amen!

Well, you are focused on my personal belief and how you think it is not different from someone else's belief. You are not getting the "why" of my belief.

OK.... I'll just repost a response to one who was claiming that there is "no evidence" and leave you all to it.....





".......Well, there is evidence for the existence of God all around us. You either reject it or don’t see it.

Also, as it has been posted before, when the Creator comes to abide “within” the believer, that believer indeed has “proof.”

But, you apparently don’t see and you apparently “don’t have.”

Still, you comment above piques some interest. You state “…. the burden of proof lies with the one making the positive “claim.”….

I think this is nothing but word bafflegab. You may believe that Christians are making a “claim,” but I see it as Christians providing a testimony or witness of our experience.

But, you choose you words carefully and there is one interesting way to look at your post.

Should you be judged….. by a God you claim has not proved His existence….. this God, at your judgment may “play the video tape” of your life and show you literally dozens of times He made His presence known to you…. Only to have you somehow reject the witness.

No one can “argue” you into belief….. Only God can “get you to flip.” I wonder how many times the Spirit has knocked on your door, but you refused to answer the knock. You will say that that has never happened. I would expect that God will show you He knocked dozens of times when the tape rolls."

They still using tape in heaven? No dvd? Hmmm, that's odd. They use VHS or Betamax format?

Why would an omnipotent being capable of blinking the universe into existence give two chits what a being like myself (an ameoba by comparrison) thinks or does? Even worse why would such a being desire to be worshipped by such lowly creatures? That isn't a good look for an all powerful universal super being. Seems a very tawdry human desire.

No, this whole story smacks heavily of what it is. A man made story of which Christianity is but one of many.

God gave us all free will to believe or not to each their own. That said

Philippians 2:10-11
English Standard Version
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I will happily kneel and confess Jesus Christ is Lord. I suppose some won’t be happy, but it won’t change that they will kneel and confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

Why the deflection?
Why not address what he wrote?

A belief beyond rational explanation maybe? Something that should be true for all if it were true at all.

Hastings,
I used the word "if" for a reason. You're presuming the alleged Black Sea deluge occurred, but that's only one of several competing hypothesis. In reality, The Black Sea area has been sealed off and reconnected many times during the last 500,000 years, with several later studies showing no evidence for the claimed deluge.

Even if it did occur, you've basically conceded the Biblical writer adapted an earlier oral tradition for their own purposes, or stole an earlier written story, perhaps one written in Cuneiform?

Just because something written in your book, that doesn't mean it's true.

Ok

We don't believe or disbelieve on the basis of 'free will'

If you were born and raised a muslim you'd be using the same arguement for allah. How do you know your god isn't actually allah? Did he clearly identify himself to you?

By the way, why would god be keeping video footage? Does it say this in the bible? Wouldn't both parties already know what they've done, or is god forgetfull these days? Sounds like some fresh bafflegab to me.

God is not the issue, fuckwits that think they know all about God are.

Then let’s discuss why you’re so bothered by what other people believe…? Let’s discuss why you’re so bothered by what other people believe…really…?

Do you both only believe what you personally witness…? Not only regarding all of ancient history, but regarding all of all history, and also regarding all current events…? Do you both only believe anything at all that you personally witness…?

If you have children, why did y'all create em’…? We created our children because we wanted some children to love. And we wanted to have relationship with em’. I believe that God did the same regarding His children.If you have children, do you desire to be worshipped by them…? Or do you desire to be loved by them…? And, do you desire to have relationship with them…? I believe that God loves His children and desires to be loved by His children, and I believe He wants relationship with His children. Again, that’s what you choose to believe. I choose to believe otherwise. But I’m OK with what you choose to believe. Are you OK with what I choose to believe…?

Terrible example. My child is a being of the exact same type that I am. Compared to an omnipotent universe creating God we don't even rise up to ant level. Do you have conversations with ants?



No. Only a sick twisted ego maniac desires to be worshipped. It's not a healthy desire. Besides who would want to be worshipped by ants?

And you can lay off the why do you care what I believe mantra. I don't. The discussion here doesn't hinge on anyones concern over what you believe. People are just having a discussion. Sorry it's difficult for you to grasp that. Perhaps another year or two of remedial English would boost your powers of comprehesion.

The universe doesn't appear to be created.

I think it’s a really good example. He refers to us, specifically, as His children. I believe we are the supreme object of His creation.And this whole discussion is specifically about beliefs. All of the threads of this nature are specifically about beliefs. Believers believe what they do, and skeptics and agnostics/atheists believe what they do. And those beliefs are discussed on threads such as this. Questions are often part of a discussion. You’ve asked many questions yourself during the course of this discussion.

Apostle John witnessed crucifixions, but He didn’t just see them, he heard em’ and he smelled em’. He experienced some pretty awful things, things that many of us can’t even imagine. He experienced the murders of his friends, and the persecution of Jesus’ followers by King Herod Agrippa I and by Emperor Domitian.

And despite all of that, he still came to the conclusion that God is love. It’s not just an attribute, it’s a core aspect of His character. And the greatest expression of His love is imparted to us in the Gospel.

Hmm…. You and willto don’t seem to get allegory or even metaphor…… I guess I am not surprised.

Guess what, God humbled me and then healed me.
I had the idea that
"You consider the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ inadequate sacrifice for sins inadequate."..
You responded here that it comes from a demented mind while you and your bud call that message a "steaming pile of dog [bleep]" on the next thread. This isn't unusual. You attack most gospel (good news) messages that have the theme of the Savior's allsufficient sacrifice. What am I to think???




Is that not what you think?
Your answer to the gospel is to either twist my words and call ME a liar or to say that my Sunday post is demented.
I ask you about what you think is required for salvation?
Simple question. I will take that as your answer then.

I wonder what the Lord thinks when He reads your comments that blaspheme His Son and all that He offers as a gift?
There are only so many chances anyone gets that offer of life, then it's too late.

Oh you mean that's what it says in a book written by men that you don't know and none of which can be verified. You are taking the word of an unknown "MAN" that there is a god and that he ever said such a thing. And there's the weak link in your chain Skippy.




.Men wrote the Bible and it paints man as Gods special creation. LOL! There's a shock.

Where did all this matter come from? There are way more questions than answers. Earth is but a grain of sand compared to the universe.

It’s OK with me that you choose to see these things the way that you do. I choose to see em’ the way that I do. The theology is that the original manuscripts by the original writers were inspired. But if you choose to believe otherwise, then so be it.

Why does nearly every culture on every continent, have a flood myth? A lot of them even feature survivors who survived on a single boat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

What's God's screen name on the "fire"?
Wonder how often he logs in?
I'd like to know his take on the .270 vs .30-06 debate.

Your ignorant prejudice is obvious when you talk about time lines.

So you reject science because a Creationist with a Ph.D from a secular college give facts about Mt. St. Hellens and other geological formations?

That's real scientyific!

A claimant to the throne is here and I won't give him the opening by naming him but he posts umpteen times a day.

So you don't accept legal historical evidence?

That would be pretty easily explained which I'm guessing you know. There is only one ocean. If the ocean suddenly broke through the strait between mainland Turkey and Europe and inundated thousands of square miles you can bet the same thing happened other places all over the world. I would imagine people living close to the original beach had boats on which some survived. I'm not believing the Alps, Himalayas, Rockies, etc. went under water. You don't believe that, do you?

Those mountains didn't exist prior to the Flood. Even secular geologist recognize they are uplifted.

No, actually He is described in vivid details in a book that you have mostly rejected.

Well, yes, the mountains are uplifting even now. How long ago was the flood? How old are those mountains? If every piece of ice on earth melted do you think water would have covered the mountains as they were 5000, 10,000, or 12,000 years ago? Mount Ararat is almost 17,000 feet above sea level. Was it flat land back then?

I kind of think that these threads on religion tend to run on and on because there are those who, even though salvation is achieved as a gift, seem to believe that they somehow score some sort of points each time they act as a defender of the faith. I don't intend for that to be an attack on them, just as an observation from a believer who doesn't often post on these discussions.

"Saved from" ?
The RONA, U.S. Gov?

What exactly are we looking for here?

I recognize that God works in ways we can only begin to understand.

We don't know, therefore God is a poor assumption. Must anything we don't know be the work of God?

What is this thing you call "God?" Where did it come from? How does it make a Universe appear from nothing? What was it doing before the Universe?

Exactly. Just claiming that a God did something doesn't solve any mystery of the universe. It just kicks the can down the road a little. Because the next logical question (as you already stated) simply becomes Okay, where did this God come from? What made it? How does it have these powers? Religious people can't justifiably berate scientists for their lack of being able to explain everything about the origin of the universe when the answers the religious people offer don't really explain how everything in the universe started either. God is an invented solution to the puzzle for which they have no proof.

And even if one subscribed to the "Hey all this must have come from somewhere so there must be a God" line of thinking (I don't) that generalistic notion in no way indicates which of the many gods the religions on this earth subscribe to is the correct one.

"What is this thing you call "God?" Where did it come from?" I asked my mother this same question when I was less than 6 years old and all I got was a stammering " we don't know".

It is a fair question and you and she are right, we don't know.

There is a power and a first cause at the center of the universe that no one understands.

The teachings of Jesus are easy to understand if you strip away all the blathering of those that try to interpret for him to their own advantage. And I do believe he was who claimed to be.

But to be honest, Jesus' message and teachings weren't new or confined to the Hebrew God. Many religions and societies had the same basic teachings. Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet. I have met Hindus that accept Jesus.

The problem with "Christians" and for that matter most religions is the evil that uses it for cover.

Just saying - "there is a power and a first cause at the center of the universe that no one understands" - is the assumption of 'We don't know, therefore God' regardless of whether we put a name to the thing called "God" or not.

If we don't know, we simply don't know, and the answer is: we don't know.

I gave up sinning a long time ago, why don't the rest of you, or is sinning just that much fun?

We can not, give up sinning.

Is that how we get to heaven when we leave this world?

Because floods are common.

The Creationist Mt. St. Helens craps been long debunked.

The "God Inspired" Bible is very specific that the water's covered the highest mountains.

In other words, much of what's claimed in The Bible makes absolutely no sense at all.

Don't listen to Ringman, he's a Young Earth Creationist who gets his "science" from the like of Answers in Genesis.

And answering a mystery with an ever greater mystery does not simplify the original mystery.

And that my friend is one of the biggest problems with religions. All evil, including mass murder, mass rape, ethnic cleansing ang genocide can be justified with religion.

All the black folks in my neck of the woods are. They go out stealing and killing on Saturday night. Then in church Sunday asking for forgiveness!

You missed the first part of my response.

Your allegorical metaphorical statement was nonsense so I responded with more speculation.

If you have proof and names, might I suggest asking for a meeting with their pastor? Who knows if he might have some pull with them and tell them to return the list of stolen property and add restitution. I can't say if it'll work, but you probably know how far you'll get with the criminal justice system in the city.

Where's your evidence to support your accusation?

No evidence that man was even ever globally wiped out, let alone by a mega-flood that never happened.

On the other subject, I'll be the first to tell you that although church attendance is important, if it's led by a saved pastor: However, church attendance never saved anyone.

Living a moral life, baptism and every other good deed is not payment for even one sin.

Check out 8,9. https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ephesians-2-8/

Explains why many christians are in jail - end of the day it doesn't matter as long as you accept Jesus as your saviour and your sins will be automatically forgiven.

Absolutely!

I never made excuses for any criminals. Nor did I say that the thieves mentioned in the topic at hand were believers.
How do you Atheists maintain such impeccable integrity as your own gods? It must be a tough job.

Show me where any atheist in this thread's claimed to be a god?

Ain't that the truth. It was all Tito could do to keep Yugoslavia peaceful and stopping Roman Catholics, Orthodox Catholics, and Bosnian Muslims from going on genocidal pogroms. Look what happened after that courageous man died. Somehow or another Jesus' real teachings get left in the dust although all 3 of those religions claim the utmost respect for Jesus.

I'm not saying you have. I've talked to locals and there seems to be a common thread about that. They use it metaphorically I think, but nevertheless think of selves as masters of their own destinies and themselves as their own"gods". Either way, the shameful way that someone behaves against others is no indication of the Biblical believer's faith. Nor are believers sinless. They have the same sin nature as they did before believing on Christ. The new nature is a spiritual part that is available at the moment one decides to choose faith. If they opt to function in the sin nature, then they will certainly act as their old self. We should not, but it is a constant choice as all men and women are tempted to sin.

Time for devotions and sleep.
Later

That's a load of crap (surprise?). Who would think that they are a god? Why would anyone want to be as immoral and unethical as the god portrayed in the bible for example?

Me in red.

Is this situation supposed to continue in Heaven.....people behave badly, do the wrong thing and have to be constantly forgiven, forever and ever amen? Like on Earth, so in Heaven? Once a sinner, always a Sinner?

No, I did not miss the first part of your response. I chose not to respond to it because it is just complete nonsense. See Brandolini’s Law.


Many people raised in one religion convert to another. Nobody is locked in because of how they were raised. Many, after being raised in a particular belief system choose to become non-believers … or adherents of different beliefs of their own choice. The “ first part of ‘your’ response” is simply an untruth.

Seems to me that one frequent poster on this forum has related that he was once a Christian and then later abandoned the faith. I wonder how he was raised.

Being born into a culture, you are conditioned by that culture. You don't choose the culture you were born into, or the religion you grew up with....but if exposed to other cultures, other ideas, it is possible to change the way you see the world.

If god was a planet manager the galaxy area manager would go jehovah- we gave you a budget of infinity and a workscope of infinity with a supporting staff of infinity and after 6000 years you have.

1. Failed to communicate to all staff you were the manager. It took 6000 years before the last races even heard you were the manager
2. 70% of the people you created still dont believe you exist.
3. 70% of all people live in abject poverty.
4 . You have an excessiive disciplinary policy being just 80 years of crime in a lifetime is somehow punished by a billion billions of years in hell.


Jehovah would not get his bonus.

Seriously you could give the same power to the average gamer millenial stoner and get better KPI's.

No it's not. The key point being there is one thing all religions have in common - they can't prove their gods exist. Pick one that suits you best or just go with whatever you were born in to.

Or have a good think about it and realise the truth of the matter is that there is no truth in it at all. Many people have lost the baggage and admit to being better off for it. We've evolved to have a brain that can perform critical thinking - why adopt a belief system that says this is wrong and that punishes you for using it?

Brandolini's law is a falsehood. The onus is always to prove a claim, not to try and disprove a false allegation. An unproved claim doesn't warrant consideration.

So let me get this straight, intelligent life and all of creation can come from nothing, but a divine awareness could not…?

So let me get your position straight. The universe could not have come from nothing on it's own but an omnipotent all powerful God could just spring into existence from nothing on it's own. See how that can come right back at you?

Unlike you I don't pretend to know all the mysteries of the origin of the universe. I DON'T KNOW is a perfect acceptable answer to some questions. But not knowing something should not cause you to sit down and make up a fairytale to fill in the gaps of your knowledge. And that is basically what religions are

Life didn't come from nothing. There is no proof of a divine awareness - it's a man made idea to fill the gaps but has no factual basis ie we don't know, therefore god/aliens/magic.

I repeat the statement - science doesn't know everything, religion knows nothing.

If you choose to believe that first life emerged from no life with no help, then so be it. If you choose to believe that you go from lifeless matter to the digital elegance of DNA without a Creator, then so be it.

Why do you say 'from nothing" if we don't know whether time had a beginning or not? The Universe may be cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something not yet imagined.

Nor did life emerge 'from nothing.' We have a planet, water, chemistry, energy from the sun, etc, etc....which is something, not nothing.

We consider the evidence, not "choose to believe." Your "choose to believe" is a rationale.

You are the one choosing to believe a completely unsubstatiated story. I do not choose to believe anything. I examine actual evidence as it becomes available which shapes my opinion. I follow the facts. I don't try to manipulate the facts to fit a story I want to believe.

The scientific method of figuring out the true nature of things has given us technology that has taken us from living in caves wielding stone tipped spears to landing spaceships on distant planets. Not to mention all the advancements in the medical world that help preserve and lengthen our lives.

Religion? Well it's kept much of the earths population mired in ignorance to the point that we are still killing each other in many areas over who is praying to the correct invisible friend.

Then post up that “actual evidence” that shapes your opinion that first life emerged from no life with no help, and that it’s gone from lifeless matter to the complexity of DNA without a Creator. Post up those “facts” that you follow that leads you to your opinion that first life emerged from no life with no help, and that it’s gone from lifeless matter to the complexity of DNA without a Creator. Show us how a creator-less creation is ‘substantiated.’

Again; we don't know, therefore God, is not an explanation.

So you want me to copy and paste 100 years of scientific research into this thread. And do it in such a way that even your simple science denying ass can understand it. I can post some links to good reads for you if you like. And oh yeah. While I am getting ready to post them please reciprocate by posting the hard factual evidence of your specific god's existence.

No. I simply want you to provide the “actual evidence” and “facts” that you said existed, specifically the ones that substantiate that everything came into being without a creator.

And while you’re at it, go ahead and show where I ever said I had “hard factual evidence” of God’s existence.

Start here. Read these then I will suggest a few more.

The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution by Richard Dawkins

Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne

Now where is your evidence for God?

I haven’t opened this thread until today. Mostly because any thread with more than 2-3 pages turns into a chit show.

Yawn, the usual Richard Craneums show up …

But the answer would have to be …obviously not.

Saved from what exactly? Religion is hocus pocus if you really think about it. I don't hate on anyone that believes in such things, but don't expect me to drink the same koolaid.

I have not said any evidence exists for how the universe first came into being. Did you miss the part about I DON'T KNOW being the way to answer some questions. Now you explain why not knowing the answer to that question makes it okay to invent a God with no evidence whatsoever to support the claim. You always ask questions but never answer any. Wonder why?

Now you’re crawfishin’.




shocker

It's no use - he repeatedly, flippantly dismisses the evidence, and likes the gaps so he can claim "therefore god" even without a thread of supporting evidence for his case. An honest person sees the gaps and says "I don't know". This delusion is common to believers. I really can't understand why people can be so dishonest with themselves - they otherwise appear normal in the more mundane tasks of daily life. You know, they will stop at red traffic lights and avoid running with sissors - their faith doesn't extend beyond common sense in these instances at least.

Now you are just proving yourself a liar. Not crawfishing on a thing. And what evidence can you provide for your claims? Does the word ZERO ring a bell? I don't know the exact way the universe originated. No one does. That means you too. There exists plenty of good research on how it has developed since if you care to read it. None of which involves inventing a fairytale story.

I have no problem with evolution.

I absolutely believe that the world and life on this earth are God's creation, and I believe that evolution was a very clever way that God used to achieve His creative objectives. I see no incompatibilities between science and spirituality. None. I see science as a source of spirituality.

Great. Then show me the proof of this god and we can wrap this up all on the same side.

I choose to believe what I do. And you choose to believe what you do, despite your assertion that you have “actual evidence” that you clearly don’t have. The ‘only’ one in this particular discourse between you and I who has mentioned “evidence” for God’s existence has been you. Clearly.

You got proof of "spirituality"? What is "spirituality" anyway?

Can you choose not to believe whatever it is you do believe is true? Being convinced of the truth, are you able to just switch your conviction off as a matter of choice?

I have never said that I have evidence of the origin of the universe. You are a consistent liar on that claim which doesn't seem to jibe with the whole Christian restriction on bearing false witness. But hey, when have Christians ever abided by their own rules.

I said I base my opinions on evidense not fairytale stories. My official opinion on the ultimate begining of the universe is (as stated before) I DON'T KNOW because there is no definitive evidence in that area. But why on earth would we fill the inevitable gaps in our scientific knowledge with made up fairytales for which there is no evidence at all. Where is the logic in that?

Life clearly didn't need a creator otherwise there would be clear evidence of a creator. Existance of a creator needs to be proved before any evidence can be claimed against him/her/it.

Opinions and beliefs are both decisions that someone thinks is true. And you’ve voiced a lot of yours in this discourse, but you’ve provided zero “actual evidence” at all upon which you claim to base your opinions…which again, are simply beliefs by another name. I have no problem with your beliefs.

Where is the evidence you base your beliefs on? Or do you admit they are based on nothing.

And keep in mind you are the one claiming a god exists. It is therefore not incumbent apon me to prove he doesn't but rather your task to show me the evidence that he does.

People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive. And then they go looking for reasons to substantiate their belief. This applies to one’s ‘rejection of’ the existence of God (as you appear to have), as well as one’s ‘belief in’ the existence of God (which I definitely do have).

You don't understand science and project your ignorance as a shared mindset of everyone else.

So you just like the story and decided to believe it despite a lack of any evidence to support it. Okay.


Ultimately I don't give a chit what you want to believe. You can nail the bumper bracket from a 73 Volvo to your wall; light candles under it; and sacrifice a chicken to it every day for all I care. But if you enter a conversation where you are going to try and chit on science for the gaps in it's understanding of the universe while on the other hand believing in a deity for which there is no evidence at all, then yeah I will push back.

A lack of conviction in the existence of a God is justified by an absence of evidence for the existence of a God.

We see things differently. That’s OK with me. I’m not bothered by your beliefs.I’m OK with what you choose to believe. I disagree with your beliefs on this matter, especially the highlighted part of your comment above…I don’t feel that way at all…but if you choose to see it that way, it’s OK with me.

Bam!

Have we got this matter settled yet?

Don't know. Apparently Billy Graham and everyone else like him are roasting right now.


So..no. Apparently hardly anyone is or has been saved.

Um no… Apparently we’re at scuttling one’s beliefs so we can all be on the same side. Some of us are ok with you not believing in God, Jesus Christ and the resurrection but the ones who don’t believe in such things are not ok with our beliefs.

I'm not atheist, and I believe Jesus was the agent of the supernatural creator.

Flood was about 5,000 -6,000 years ago. Due to tides and current beyond our present understanding the earth would have been pretty much planed to almost smooth. Any graduate student or serious student of geology knows if the earth was smoothed out, water would be about two miles deep.

Your question is a logical dodge. It's like asking, to whom is the bachelor married? Only an Infinite Being could qualify as God. Anything less is angel or demon worship.

The idea that it all came from somewhere actually supports the idea God exist because even a child knows nothing produces nothing. It makes no difference how many degrees a person has they know deep inside the child is correct.

Because you don't accept evidence in no way lets you off the hook.

I didn't know that. I was lucky to graduate high school.

Then how did god come from nothing. If it's absurd to think that the universe may have always existed in some form then it's equally ridiculous to turn around and say that a god has just always existed. If everything must come from something then where did god come from? You want to give this god you believe in a special exemption from the same logic you want to force others to rigidly adhere to.

Who here is ‘forcing’ anyone else here “to rigidly adhere to” anything…? We’re just having a discussion. On a discussion forum.

Wasn't talking to you. I was pointing out the ridiculous double standard of saying on the one hand that the universe must come from something but then exempting a god from that same logic. This is pretty easy to understand. It's almost like you guys are intentionally obtuse.

As opposed to “you guys” pointing out that life on earth and all of creation can come from nothing, but then exempting God from that same logic.

Well the difference is that the universe undeniably exists. There is no evidence of god.

I didn't make up the existence of the universe or the earth. But men did make up god as a means to explain it's origin.

Others choose to see things differently than you do. And that is their prerogative.That’s your assertion; I disagree with it, but I have no problem with it.

If you believe in a highest good, you believe in God.
If you believe in truth, you believe in God.
If you believe in transcendent beauty, you believe in God.

Is that worthy of worship? Should we worship this?

No answer?

If you believe in an uncaused cause, you believe in God.

I read that the universe is 13.8 billion years old and was formed when gravity or something pulled all matter into such a dense mass that something had to give and we had the mother of a nuclear type of an explosion. Young earth folks say against all evidence that creation was like 5,000 years ago and earth was created and populated in 7 days. I am not atheist but sticking to that 5000 year story doesn't wash. I believe a lot of these 5,000 year creationists cause a lot of thinking people to shake their heads and walk off.

False Dichotomy. There are other possibilities, the universe may be cyclic, a part of a multiverse, etc, etc....it is not known.

We don't know.

We don't know, therefore God, is not an argument.