Think you would have like being on it?

Back when men were men and women were glad of it.

Fugg it why not

Always been a dream of mine. They had a vision. Get the eff away from the east coast! HAHA!

I sure would have

Oh Hell yea. Try and stop me.

wabigoon;
Good evening my friend, I hope the weather you're all getting is better than the blast we're about to receive here and that you and yours are well.

On one trip down through the country they travelled through I picked up a copy of their journals edited by Bernard DeVoto and have read it a couple times.

It was a really hard existence so thanks kindly but no, especially not at my current age I wouldn't prefer to have been in on it.

If you or our fellow campfire members like that sort of reading, here's a bit of a list.

This fellow, Alexander Ross worked for the Pacific Fur Company and helped establish the fort at what would become Astoria near where Lewis and Clark wintered.

https://www.amazon.ca/Adventures-Se...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

This chap, John Palliser was a Irish nobleman who led an expedition less than 60 years after Lewis and Clark went below the medicine line to find the Pacific. Nobody other than the Natives knew much about the area as far as soil types, precipitation, temperature, etc. It was Palliser who laid the groundwork that enabled western expansion of farming in Canada.

https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/palliser-expedition/author/spry-irene-m/

Lastly, Charles Wilson was one of the Royal Engineers tasked with actually determining where the medicine line was, at least here in BC from the coast to the foothills of the Rockies.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52652258-mapping-the-frontier

All of the books I've mentioned go into how "interesting" the conditions were out west here back then.

Anyways wabigoon, there's a reading list for the year!

All the best to you all in 2022.

Dwayne

We’re you part of it, Wabi?

werent they almost starving at one point during the journey?

You should follow the trail. I've done parts of it and it is interesting to see how the circumnavigated parts of the country. It is certainly a bit out of context given our modern road system.

Sergeant Floyd would probably opt out of it.

They ate approx. 400 dogs while on the trip.

But they didn’t eat Seaman.

I read Undaunted Courage and couldn't put it down. The expedition is an unbelievable story.

Dwayne, I've read on Palliser's Triangle.

Highly recommend Benard Devoto’s edition "The Journals of Lewis & Clark"

Bob, you have all the correct clothing for the journey.

Weren't they racists?

They brought some cool guns along with them, to include very powerful air rifles.

I would not have like to been on it, unless I had some of the conveniences of today. That’s an awful long camping trip. Guess I’m getting soft, as 10 days in a tent in Ak with rain every day, was all I could endure.

kaywoodie;
Good evening my cyber friend, I do hope you folks are warmer and getting less snow than we're about to partake of.

When I was doing up my 2022 reading list above, I thought that you'd either enjoy them or might have read them.

As mentioned I've got a copy of DeVoto's book and have read it a couple times.

It's interesting to me how quickly on their heels the Pacific Fur Company was out establishing posts.

Anyways sir, all the very best to you in 2022.

Dwayne

We can’t ask York. He dead

And , Cruzatte shot Lewis in the ass!

But they was both white.

Said he mistook him for an elk. That’s pan-racist isnt it???

Brave men indeed.

York was popular with the ladies.

In the area of Montana that I grew up, they would have dealt with rattle snakes and grizzly bears.

Very few men today could make that trip under the same conditions.

Thanks Dwayne! Got up to a pleasant 73F today. Was almost 80 yesterday and day before!

My fav is the Santa Fe trail reading! Also read a good diary by Lt. James W. Abert on his topographical expedition thru Raton Pass and down the southern Canadian river into the nations.

And the much earlier Freeman-Custis expedition.

Little known but exciting stuff.

Have a great weekend Dwayne. I’ll be off Saturday morning to the villa de Austin on the Brazos river (San Felipe) for an Eighth of January celebration. Big national holiday!!!

You take care!

Ton ami

Kaywoodie

I live a couple hundred yards from the Yellowstone River that Clark made his return trip to meet Lewis at the confluence of the Yellowstone and the Missouri rivers.
I would have loved to have been on that trip!

The Yellowstone probably still looks the same now as it did to Clark

Little known fact.


While it is true that the expedition suffered many westward challenges, the return trip back east was actually quite comfortable.

Clark was reported to be especially fond of Amtrak's sky car.

Having seen and ridden along the Upper Missouri from Great Falls Mt west in 2019, I am friggin amazed they poled a boat against that current, the labor required must have been astronomical.

yes. Through Idaho going west they found no game at all. They ate 1 horse.

They lived for more than 2 years on meat and water.

^^^This^^^

What a wet and miserable winter they spent in Oreegone. Can't even imagine.


Tough bastards, for sure.


The stories of the meat hunters were cool. Can you imagine bringing down elk with an air rifle?

I would have jumped at the chance as a young guy back in that time. One of the most uncomfortable aspects even over hunger and danger would have been the mosquitoes IMO. I read that at one point they were so thick that even the dog they brought with them howled in agony. I hate skeeters!

Many members were treated with mercury! Just like in the old song! Some camesites have been verified by locating mercury traces in the latrine areas.

David Thompson's journey, though much smaller, was a good one as well.

https://www.historylink.org/file/5097

https://www.sandpointonline.com/sandpointmag/sms09/david_thompson.html

The original PBS Lewis and Clark series was a staple at camp whenever the satellite porn would go down. This Fall, someone popped the VHS tape in and the VCR promptly ate it. It was the end of an era.

Thank you Thomas Jefferson

The hardships of the trip were much closer to the hardships of daily life in those days.

Bruce

Good point.

And I believe they enjoyed the experience.



I will have to keep an eye out for that one. I've got a U of Nebraska press, edited by Moulton that was a decent read.

Y'all know they didn't have Kennetreks and Meindle's, right? Walked in moccasins until they wore out, then made their own.

Geno likes hunting in moccasins, probably would have enjoyed that part of the trip.

Living wet like they did in Oregon might not have been so much fun.

The bridge to the right of the elevator crosses Almota Creek, where the group camped one evening. Of course, camp might be underwater now, as the Snake is not in the same condition as that river in Kenny's picture

They traded for and survived on lots of roots from the Nez Perce when they were on the return trip and had to wait for the snow to leave so they could get over Lolo Pass. Corps members were down to trading buttons, ribbon, etc.. off their clothing for roots, in some cases. Deer were tough to find when they were in what is now Idaho. They did manage to kill several dozen deer though and they got some bears. They also had what was known as "portable soup" to eat when things go real tough. It had to be real chore feeding 30 plus hungry people with limited resources.

L and C found they could offer medical treatment to the Nez Perce in trade for roots, fish, horses, dogs, all of which were consumed. The Indians thought them great healers.

Lots of places and rivers in this part of the country carry names from the LC Expedition. A few have some memorable names like; Colt Killed Creek, Horse Steak Meadows, Bears Oil and Roots, Hungry Creek, Portable Soup Camp.... You can guess what they ate or didn't eat at those locations.

In one case, the group were so needing food they sent expedition member, John Ordway, and two others to go from their camp on the Clearwater River to the Snake River (a distance of almost 70 miles) to try trading for the salmon that were rumored to be migrating upriver there. The Indians said the trip would take a day, but it took 3 days to get to the Snake River and Ordway was able to trade for 27 large and fresh salmon. Unfortunately, most of the salmon spoiled by the time they got them back to the main camp on the Clearwater River.

Yep, my favorite President.

Ever visited Fort Clatsop near Astoria where they wintered? Interesting place where the Columbia meets the Pacific.

Geno;
Good evening to you my cyber friend, I hope you're getting some snow, but not too much and are able to deal with it.

I've had really good success ordering from AbeBooks for used books from all over the US and some in Canada too.

They've always been exactly as described.

Here's a link to the Bernard DeVoto book - I see one soft cover for $8 with $5 shipping.

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Se...p;x=84&y=7&yrh=1953&yrl=1953

All the best to you all in 2022.

Dwayne

Cool pic, Geno.

Chased birds right there a time or two. Place is lousy with rattlers.
I guess that’s to be expected in E WA, right next to a grain elevator.

That Air rifle that Lewis demonstrated for the Indians scared the hell outta ‘em. Basically a parlour trick that worked well.

I have been there. That looks like the Fort Clatsop I visited before it burned down. Haven't seen the rebuilt version.

That picture was taken summer of '95. When did it burn down?

"The original Fort Clatsop decayed in the wet climate of the region but was reconstructed for the sesquicentennial in 1955 from sketches in the journals of William Clark. The replica lasted for fifty years, but was severely damaged by fire in early October 2005, weeks before Fort Clatsop's bicentennial. A new replica, more rustic and rough-hewn, was built by about 700 volunteers in 2006; it opened with a dedication ceremony that took place on December 9. The site is currently operated by the National Park Service."

Fort Clatsop

kkahmann;
Good evening to you sir, I hope you all are keeping out of the weather back east and are well.

If you've not seen this before, this is the same type air rifle they carried, which I figure is rather cool.



All the best to you all in 2022.

Dwayne

I heard the threesomes with Sacagawea were epic.

In eight and a half minutes he couldn't show us how it worked.

Thanks D,

I'll check that one out. I'm pretty sure I've bought something from them before and checked the value of another old book I have.

January thaw here. -2F on the 2nd, today just about all the snow in the yard is melting into the ground or going down our seasonal creek to fill the nearly empty reservoir downstream.


More snow perhaps this weekend, but probably mostly rain at our altitude. We'll take whatever the sky drops on us at this point.

Well there are some birds around, that's for sure. But pheasants weren't on the Corps menu then.

Rattlers? Yeah, a few, but nowhere near what I lived with in the desert below Hoover Dam.

kingston;
Good evening to you sir, I trust the day behaved acceptably for you and you're warm, well and dry.

This is a better video explaining how it works, but somehow the quality of picture isn't great.



It's interesting to me how long air guns have been around.

All the best to you in 2022.

Dwayne

This is a great read. Written by Stephen Ambrose.

Yep. Great read.

Iron Men and Wooden Ships in those days! Your right, imagine inches at a time, instead of yards!

They kept meticulous records. I read that during their months at Ft. Clatsop, they killed 128 elk. They were trying to dry the meat for the trip home but it was so wet that they couldn't do it. It all spoiled.
'Undaunted Courage' mentioned an event that I've never read anywhere else. On the return trip, a group was hunting elk in a quakie patch when one of the men mistook Lewis for an elk and shot him in the butt. It wasn't serious but Lewis spent a lot of time lying on his stomach in a canoe for a while.

I would have done it. Probably wouldn't have survived or went mad like Lewis. Yeah, would've been killed by bandits along the Natchez Trace. Shame that...

Quite a few of the men went back west shortly after the trip. A number of them died out there. Some made their own history like John Colter who discovered Yellowstone. Clark's crew just missed it on the return trip.

Undaunted Courage is a fascinating read.
The hard cover version includes more than the soft back if one can still locate a copy.

An excellent book!

I read a big book on the expedjtion written by a professor at UNO. Hauling and poling boats upstream from MO to MT does not sound fun or something I would want to do.

Only if I could bang Sacagawea...

Their first encounter with a Grizzly was comical.

They figured that the portage around the Great Falls in MT would take a few days. It took a few weeks. They wore out their moccasins on sharp rocks.


History records that she apparently had a great personality. It says nothing about her appearance. Sounds like some blind dates I've had.

It is in Devoto’s edition of the journals. It was Cruzatte who mistook Lewis for an elk.

Imagine the smell of an unbathed Indian girl.
Also Syphilis was apparently a problem on that long camping trip. Wonder if they picked it up out west or brought it with them?

After the trip, Lewis sort of went nuts. No one knows for sure if he was murdered or committed suicide. There's evidence both ways. It's speculated that he might have been in the later stages of syphilis which can affect the brain. The disease goes through a latent period with no symptoms. That period can last from a year to decades. They spent quite a bit of time in St Louis while getting outfitted. He could have easily caught it in a brothel and been in a full blown final stage on their return 3 years later.

It's also said that...

After the expedition, Jefferson appointed Lewis as Governor of Louisiana. It was a mistake because Lewis was not a politician. He started buying and selling land, and he began drinking very heavily. He sank into a depression. His creditors demanded that he pay his debts, and Lewis became a physical wreck due to drugs (to treat malaria) and alcohol. He committed suicide in 1809. It was a very unfortunate end for a man who had great character and was an excellent leader.

Brought it with them. See my earlier post above referencing the pill of white mercury.

They spent the winter holed up with the Mandans. The Mandans had never seen a negro and they thought the slave York had magical powers, he reminded them of a buffalo. The Indians thought they could capture some of that power if York had sex with their wife.

Many a night a Mandan stood outside his lodge, while York was inside having sex with his wife.

Apparently, especially in the NW, there was also quite the flea and rodent issue in some native lodges. As well as all the other vermin that go with them.

One site they came upon they speculated the locals abandoned the whole village due to the flea infestation

Great book

Agreed. Well worth the time and money.

You were in my backyard and never called? I am so disappointed.

They didn't pick the easiest way to go. The south pass in WY wasn't discovered yet. That's the route later used by the Oregon Trail. It made crossing the Rockies possible by wagon. Of course they were looking for a water route to the Pacific and none exists.

Wasn’t it Jedediah Smith or some of his brigade redited with finding the south pass?

That was Ambrose. He traveled parts of the path yearly with students.

Did small pox precede Lewis and Clark? I read somewhere that it did.

No. Read up on the Hunt party. 60 men employed by John Jacob Astor had gone to Astoria, OR. They followed the Snake River across Idaho but had crossed the mountains farther north where they had fits with the Indians. From Astoria, they sent a party of 7 men back to St Louis. Those men went farther south to avoid the Indians and found the South Pass.
The Hunt party unknowingly blazed the Oregon Trail from WY all the way to Astoria, OR. There are sections of the Snake River in south central ID that aren't floatable except in modern kayaks capable of class 5 rapids. They tried it and had pretty rough go of it. They ended up walking for hundreds of miles.
If L&C had gone that way, they would have got across the mountains much easier but still would have faced the high desert and many deep canyons along the Snake river.

A wonder the all didn't die of VD or Mercury poisoning trying to cure it. Carrying a keelboat up the river didn't sound like a lot of fun either. Hell of an adventure, tough old birds for sure........and lucky.

One of my ancestors (John Shields), and one of my distant relatives (Meriwether Lewis) were part of the expedition. I have read many books on the expedition and while the idea of it thrills me, the reality is something else. Maybe, just maybe when I was in my 20s and a college athlete I could have hacked it physically, but likely not. These men were as tough as shoe leather. Maybe there are some here who would be up for it, but I think most a deluding themselves.

Lewis had taken an iron framed folding canoe that was packed in the keel boat. Apparently it didn't work out very well. When assembled, it was about 36' long and capable of hauling 8000lb. They carried it to the Great Falls before they tried to assemble it. They covered it with elk skins but when they tried to waterproof it, they failed. They tried beeswax and pitch but nothing worked and it leaked too bad to be usable. All that work for nothing. Sounds like some of my projects.

Dwayne:

On a related note, are there any good books you can recommend on the Alexander McKenzie's 1793 expedition to the Pacific?

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kaywoodie;
Good evening my cyber friend, I do hope you folks are warmer and getting less snow than we're about to partake of.

When I was doing up my 2022 reading list above, I thought that you'd either enjoy them or might have read them.

As mentioned I've got a copy of DeVoto's book and have read it a couple times.

It's interesting to me how quickly on their heels the Pacific Fur Company was out establishing posts.

Anyways sir, all the very best to you in 2022.

Dwayne
[/quote]

Lewis was 29, Clark 33 at the beginning of the trip.

I couldn't imagine the hell they endured without mosquito spray.

Not to mention poling and pulling the keel boats upstream for hundreds of miles in all weather conditions.

They have my utmost respect, those were some bad ass men.

Lewis tried but never convinced the military that it was possible to have co-captains. They wouldn't promote Clark from 2d Lt. Lewis sort of gave Clark a field promotion and they agreed that the men would never know that they weren't equal in rank. Clark didn't get his official promotion until they got home. They had to be good friends to make it work and avoid conflicts.

Then there was York, Clark's slave. York became an important part of the expedition and was a great go- between with the Indians. In spite of his service, Clark didn't free him for 10 years after their return. There are reports that York became very resentful and a less than ideal slave and Clark had to resort to some heavy handed tactics to 'tame' him. It's unknown what happened to him after he was freed. There are reports that he went west again and was seen living with Indians and other reports that he decided he preferred slavery (HIGHLY unlikely).

Wasn’t Shields the acting gunsmith on the expedition?

Apologies Blue,

I was up there 8 months a year for work, usually rather busy, some pay periods between May and August I'd get 120 hr OT on top of my 80 regular in 2 weeks. Mid Mar-May and Aug-Mid Nov sometimes I was doing 12 hr on, 12 off for 10-12 days in a 2 week period too. My wife was living in Cali or over in the Potlandia area and if I had more than a few days off I go see her and our dogs. Most days off were used to go to Clarkston-Lewiston or Pullman-Moscow to resupply and maybe during the season hunt some birds or deer. (and a lot of that was after a 12 hr night shift)

Only managed to get together with Field Grade for a couple of hours, missed meeting up with a few others over in that neighborhood, Lonny, wageslave, you. Oh, I did meet one guy at a gun show, that guy that sang in some Gospel quartet or such, but that was just a hello.

We would all have been in the way around that bunch. Those guys were chosen for a reason.

"Sign-Talker" is a semi-factual book by James Alexander Thom. It's worth a read. Tells the 1st expidition story from the perspective of George Drouillard, the half Indian hunter and interpreter of the party. I've read all of Thom's books and they are great.

Thanks RC. Couldn’t remember!

II have read 2 of the journals and think the one by Patrick Glass are the best. They give a day to day account of the trip.

I lived most of my life at various places close to the Missouri River. I have covered part on a horse, floated parts of it and driven parts in a car.

For my part I would not have been able to last through that trip.

Here's a couple of pics of some of the descendants of the expedition's main food source at the end of the journey.

These were taken last year, not too far from Fort Clatsop.

They got pretty damn tired of eating nothing but boiled elk meat. No fat, no vegetables, not even a PBR to wash it down with.

Then they used the wet hides as blankets and such.

Bunch of badass dudes. John Colter sure had some harrowing stories of the Injuns!

This is some rare footage of George Drouillard sending meat to the flatboat on the Missouri.

That he was and the oldest member of the expedition at 36 I think. He was drafted by Clark for his frontiersman and gunsmithing skills. He was one of 10 brothers that first settled in the Pigeon Forge area of Tennessee in the 1790s and built Shields Fort. If you have ever been to Pigeon Forge, the fort was built very close to where Dollywood Theme Parks sits today.

Would not have been into poling or hauling those boats up the Missouri. Likely would have tired of dried salmon etc after a couple months too. Would like to have seen an undammed Columbia though.

If one reads their daily text, it was Clark that logged most of the material. Lewis often copied Clark's work word for word in his version. Would have been interesting if Lewis have indeed drafted his official report. Jefferson kept him salaried in some sort of figurehead position, but Lewis shot himself before ever really getting started on the job.

Don't know what my lifespan would have been with all those strong medicines like arsenic and mercury back then either.

kaywoodie;
Good evening.......

Dwayne
[/quote]
[/quote]

seppli;
Good afternoon, I hope that if you're in the snowy section of Utah that you're dug out by now and that in all other ways the day is behaving for you.

In all honesty I need to read up more on Simon Fraser and Alex McKenzie, so do not have a particular book to recommend and do apologize for that.

As a broad statement, if I can find a journal or diary by the folks on the ground I much prefer that even if it's written in a style that's not easy reading.

When I read history, I'm looking for as clear of a picture of what it was like there and then, without someone else "interpreting" that a century later through the lens of their experience and not the folks involved back when.

That said then, this'd be my first read on the subject and might be something I'll put on my list actually.

https://www.abebooks.com/9780837187891/First-Man-West-Alexander-Mackenzies-0837187893/plp

Again sorry that's not truly a specific recommendation, but that's where I'd start.

All the best to you in 2022.

Dwayne

We stay at Boyer Park at least once a month during the summer.. Great quite park.

Well, dang. Had I known that then, I'd have certainly been able to cross the dam and get to the park for a visit. I had a couple of decent burgers there during one cook's term there.

And yes, it seemed to usually be a relatively quiet place, except perhaps holiday weekends. And maybe when the steelhead were running good too.

Maybe if I make it back up to visit friends in Colfax I'll shoot you a PM.