How long will it take for 6.8 to replace previous rifle cartridges and become the "primary" round? (And what % of previous rifle chamberings will never get replaced?)
The 6.8 is about the same size as the 308 but has 80,000 lbs pressure vs 308 or 7.62x51mm. It can penetrate body armor to 600 yards. This is why they chose this cartridge. It was the only one that could penetrate body armor at that distance. This will take time and will go to the army first. National guard units will still use the 556 for several years to come, like 5-10. Don't know if the Marines or other units will adapt it, but probably will over time. The 6.8 will make all current body armor obsolete.
It'll happen fairly fast once SIG gears-up ammo production and is able to meet demand and fill combat stockpile requirments. What's that, 20 billion rounds? Isn't 20 billion the 5.56x45 standard?
What's going to be really interesting to see is what they do with current 5.56x45 stockpiles. They'll keep the 7.62x51 stockpiles, which I'll explain below.
The platforms themselves are already in production so roll out will go to elite units first to put them through their paces on a mass scale. They'll work the bugs out until the the A1 is ready to go into full production. A2s will be years down the road not until after the platforms and rounds are baptised in at least two different combat environments, preferably three ... desert, mountain, jungle. MOUT is already a given ... but this platform, and round, are not really optimized for MOUT. It's a bit of a conundrum.
As I understand it the integrated suppressor systems are going-to-be one of the toughest things to manufacture and supply on a large scale in the beginning. The Chinese own the titanium market.
7.62x51 will never be replaced. It will remain stockpiled and there will be 100s of 1000s of replacement barrels made for the new platform .... eventually .... as backups .... because it is NATO standard.
I was around for the M9 switchover from the 1911s ... 45 ACP to 9mm. I was on the ACE Board in Italy under SETAF in Vicenza that shot some of the first 92s in '83 and again in '84. They had already been presented at Aberdeen stateside by then but our pistol team was close by in Italy at the time so we were chosen to spend the week at Berettas facility shooting. Triggers, mag releases (position), amd safeties were the big changes we suggested from the original 92s before the FS ... plus there were sight issues to some degree and the engineers had some structural requirements that raised some questions about the slides.
After all that was ironed-out (and it didn't take long) we were being issued M9s by mid '85 and there was a full compliment of ammo, to include the combat stockpile, on hand for all the RDF obligated divisions throughout every combat Corp in the U.S. military.
There is already a plan in place. You can bet that two years from now the new platforms and ammo will be in action just in time for this next war we're about to be thrust into to happen. They'll call it battlefield trials and there will be very little civilian ammo made available at first ... it'll take years before noticeable amounts of "surplus" ammo becomes available.
I've made threads about this, about how this new ammo will negatively affect the 2A marketplace for over a decade as contracts are handed out for production of the 277 Fury and all the major manufacturers rush to fill those contracts.
Not being able to reload it, at least for now, is what will relally hurt.
People do not understand how much our ammo marketplace is dependent upon milsurp brass .... andnhow badly it has already hurt us that so much is already being demilled by liberal post commanders.
This new ammo is a game changer on several levels ... some good, some bad.
I read similar reports about the body armor penetration... but then wondered how many infantry engagements really involve 400 to 600 yard shooting? (I'm assuming snipers are going to keep using whatever they were already using on their preferred platforms... the former Ranger I know was big on 300 winmag, but his instructor was still a 308 guy.)
Body armor at 600 meters? Seems like a made up requirement to force the weapon system upon us. Which in reality is like stepping back to the M14 in a shorter louder platform (without the suppressor). I would like to witness some full auto fire to see how controllable the new weapon is. Personally I think this is a fool thing to do, going to a high pressure non NATO round, dumping the intermediate rounds benefits for what exactly? 600 meter body armor penetration?
Body armor at 600 meters? Seems like a made up requirement to force the weapon system upon us. Which in reality is like stepping back to the M14 in a shorter louder platform (without the suppressor). I would like to witness some full auto fire to see how controllable the new weapon is. Personally I think this is a fool thing to do, going to a high pressure non NATO round, dumping the intermediate rounds benefits for what exactly? 600 meter body armor penetration?
Full auto in the first few seconds here
(waits for someone to talk crap about GT without knowing his background)
Body armor at 600 meters? Seems like a made up requirement to force the weapon system upon us. Which in reality is like stepping back to the M14 in a shorter louder platform (without the suppressor). I would like to witness some full auto fire to see how controllable the new weapon is. Personally I think this is a fool thing to do, going to a high pressure non NATO round, dumping the intermediate rounds benefits for what exactly? 600 meter body armor penetration?
Full auto in the first few seconds here
(waits for someone to talk crap about GT without knowing his background)
Thanks for posting.I did not hear any mention of all up weight.Did I miss this?
I don't think it's ever going to be widely adopted myself. I think it's going to turn out like the XM25 project.
I could think of a few scenarios wherein it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to have a counterpart to the NATO stockpile, re: could still share 308 with allies if necessary, but if we're the only 6.8, that's dedicated. (And Lord knows that lately we ship things around willy-nilly and leave stuff behind...)
It will take 1or 2 to 6 yrs to get it out to Special Ops communities and Combat arms units. Combat service support maybe 10 to 12 years if at all. Overseas units will get and should get priority 1st. And Conus units on RDF status. The logistics and training to field a new wpn systems is alot. ALOT..... Fugg just building the ammo requirement tables for qual and adddresing range issues is huge. Building up a x2 war stock in storage let alone units 2 year training forecast is huge...
Lotta reserve and Gaurd units have A2,s
We got M4,s back in 97 in 3/ 187th Also at same time got m240b,s Pl, PSG, 4 SL,s had M4,s in a platoon. Took to around 01 to get all others a M4. Went to OIF1 we all had em. Combat service support units still had A2,s Around 2008 2009 the A2,s were gone. AD support troops organic to the 101st had m4,s 18th Abn corp support assets still had A2 s Even the 8inch corp arty guys had A2,s still.
Went to desert storm with a A2 in the 101st. Everyone in division had A2,s
Left carson in 86 and A1,s Went to Germany Had A2,s and SAWS. Carson had M60 tanks Germany had M1,s in 86 when I got their and was feilding Bradleys in 87 and 88.
5.56mm ammo will be in the system DOD for a long time in AD support units and reserve and gaurd units for their M4,s and A2,s.
Think of it like the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine in WW2 and The Korean war.
Then along came the M14 7.62 x 51 Then Eugene came along.
Having a new wpn system aint a bad thing. But it takes a loooooong time to phase in.
Back in 01 None of us complained 1 bit either when we 86,d the Dragon for the Javelin. Javelin was a Godsend!!!!
Dealt with the Dragon from 1984 to 2001. AMF..... Shooting missles from 1972 with pink red humidity indicators.
Some of em hit tgt fail to explode. You could fly the fuuucka,s but whether it would go boom was the question. Had the Dragon in Germany in 86 to 88. Not a confidence builder with launch sig and have to fly it 10 to 12 seconds with a good last flight command you could stretch out to 1100 yds (extra 100) after your wire broke.
They was just start to phase out the M203 and replace it with another system in 08 when I retired. Was seeing it when I worked small arm ranges on post from early 2009 to mid 2011.
OGB did you ever run into a guy named Whalen when you were in the 82nd? Buddy of mine was a 12B there, he did an Afghanistan rotation with the 82nd and then went SF and ended up as a 18E eventually.
In germany we had some rube goldberg erector set mount for the dragons on our 113,s Gawd I hated mech those 1st 4yrs...😔😔😔😔 Was sooooo glad to escape 11m transistion and stay 11B light infantry. All it cost me was 12 months at Hood filling in as a 11C which paid huge experience dividends down the line for me. Anyways...
Dragon had regular bipod dismount mode as a given. But the idea of launching from a 113 and the huge launch sig and tgt profile of a stationary 113 was not a warm and fuzzy at all... 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️😄😄
I was pissed when I left the A1 in 86. Was pissed when I left the A2 in 97. Grew into the M4 like any new wpn.
Joe dont mind humping firepower. He might bytch, but bytching is the sign of a well adjusted joe and a given right since valley forge 😄😄😄 But joe also knows more firepower is better.
I don't see why 600+ yards would matter much, but could see how advances in armor at closer ranges might necessitate evolution in ammunition.
600+ yard engagements were common in Afghanistan and that’s a big driver of the new weapon.
600 yards was common with light infantry rifles? (I'm not saying they weren't, just having a hard time imagining it, partly because past 300 yards my eyes quickly morph into Mr. Magoo mode.)
In germany we had some rube goldberg erector set mount for the dragons on our 113,s Gawd I hated mech those 1st 4yrs...😔😔😔😔 Was sooooo glad to escape 11m transistion and stay 11B light infantry. All it cost me was 12 months at Hood filling in as a 11C which paid huge experience dividends down the line for me. Anyways...
Dragon had regular bipod dismount mode as a given. But the idea of launching from a 113 and the huge launch sig and tgt profile of a stationary 113 was not a warm and fuzzy at all... 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️😄😄
I was pissed when I left the A1 in 86. Was pissed when I left the A2 in 97. Grew into the M4 like any new wpn.
Joe dont mind humping firepower. He might bytch, but bytching is the sign of a well adjusted joe and a given right since valley forge 😄😄😄 But joe also knows more firepower is better.
My first duty station I was on an ITV that was in 86. You could dismount the TOW, but we also had Dragons as a secondary Anti Armor system. Ended up transitioning to the Bradley in 89 IIRC.
OGB did you ever run into a guy named Whalen when you were in the 82nd? Buddy of mine was a 12B there, he did an Afghanistan rotation with the 82nd and then went SF and ended up as a 18E eventually.
Not sure, left the 82nd in 2000' and there's 5 active SFGs he could have gone to.
OGB did you ever run into a guy named Whalen when you were in the 82nd? Buddy of mine was a 12B there, he did an Afghanistan rotation with the 82nd and then went SF and ended up as a 18E eventually.
Not sure, left the 82nd in 2000' and there's 5 active SFGs he could have gone to.
In germany we had some rube goldberg erector set mount for the dragons on our 113,s Gawd I hated mech those 1st 4yrs...😔😔😔😔 Was sooooo glad to escape 11m transistion and stay 11B light infantry. All it cost me was 12 months at Hood filling in as a 11C which paid huge experience dividends down the line for me. Anyways...
Dragon had regular bipod dismount mode as a given. But the idea of launching from a 113 and the huge launch sig and tgt profile of a stationary 113 was not a warm and fuzzy at all... 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️😄😄
I was pissed when I left the A1 in 86. Was pissed when I left the A2 in 97. Grew into the M4 like any new wpn.
Joe dont mind humping firepower. He might bytch, but bytching is the sign of a well adjusted joe and a given right since valley forge 😄😄😄 But joe also knows more firepower is better.
Haha, 2 things I never wished for in a gun fight, a smaller gun or less ammo.
I have no military experience but if true that it will weigh 11 pounds loaded up that sounds like an absolute pig. Especially if that’s the weight minus an optic. Again no military experience but as a layman it seems like a well thought out optics system would be critical to justify that much weight while giving the ability to make consistent hits at the extended ranges that the chambering is designed for.
I can see where 600 yard shots would be useful back in the days of tight formations or even trench warfare but against an enemy spread out on a mountain side shooting from concealment how useful is being able to deliver deadly rounds at that range with irons or red dots Vs. The weight of the rifle? Suppressive fire I suppose but if they’re spread out and actual hits are few is it enough to justify that heavy of a rifle that would seem to give up a lot at closer engagements?
In the eighty deuce we had the "Drago Missle Jump Pack" which was dubbed the "Womack Jump Pack" (Womack being the post hospital)
With that post, you uniform burning POS mother fuqkeur .... you "almost" convinced me that you served in or around the whereabouts of Ardiennes at one time.
I know for a fact my original assessment applies. You were a bone smoking 20 year E7 five jump commando living large on the "don’t ask don’t tell" final days of the Obama administration.
Won't save you from the ass whooping that your c0q$ucing ass deserves .... you mother [bleep]. Burn your uniform ... invite me to witness it ... I dare You.
They should have just gone back to a twenty inch barrel on the 5.56 and upped the pressure a bit. It never was a good idea to take a cartridge so dependent on velocity as the 5.56 and start turning out rifles with 16 and 14 inc barrels.
Sure, the new round gets high velocity out of a short barrel, but then you add six inches of suppressor and you are right back where you started.
Not sure, left the 82nd in 2000' and there's 5 active SFGs he could have gone to.
So you ETS'd under Dan McNeill or Vines? Who were their CSMs? One of them was/is my best friend ... he was in my wedding. I talk with him at least once a week. He lives in South Florida now.
You're not going to be able to look it up. Who were their CSMs?
Also ... if you were at Bragg in 2000 with group, it was 3rd, not 5th. 5th was already at Campbell with the legs on a rope. 3rd Herd 3rd BN ... who was the CSM? He was my roommate in the late 70s when we were both Bucks. I still talk to him every single week without fail. Who was Charlie Company's CSM? He has the finest uniform collection in the country ... he tours with it everywhere you uniform burning POS.
Name any of those very well known CSMs and you'll be able to name me. I've given you plenty of hints.
Otherwise you'll be mumbling my name while I am stomping a mudhole in your ass you cherry uniform burning POS.
They should have just gone back to a twenty inch barrel on the 5.56 and upped the pressure a bit. It never was a good idea to take a cartridge so dependent on velocity as the 5.56 and start turning out rifles with 16 and 14 inc barrels.
Sure, the new round gets high velocity out of a short barrel, but then you add six inches of suppressor and you are right back where you started.
Not really.
Bigger pill traveling faster and all ... plus reduced recoil thanks to the platform and can. Plus quick change nitride barrels, sub MOA at 500 meters, integrated Vortex sight acquisition system, interchangeable belt fed squad automatic weapon that increased grazing fire out past 2000 meters ... plus, yeah, penetrates all known body armor and ceramic plates out to 600 meters. That's a serious mind-fuque-to opposing troops at that range who thought they were bullet proof until now. Skinny poop is they have an AP round that penetrates steel plates at 500 meters ... which is a total game changer.
Two completely different cartridges and platforms JoeBob.
They should have just gone back to a twenty inch barrel on the 5.56 and upped the pressure a bit. It never was a good idea to take a cartridge so dependent on velocity as the 5.56 and start turning out rifles with 16 and 14 inc barrels.
Sure, the new round gets high velocity out of a short barrel, but then you add six inches of suppressor and you are right back where you started.
Not really.
Bigger pill traveling faster and all ... plus reduced recoil thanks to the platform and can. Plus quick change nitride barrels, sub MOA at 500 meters, integrated Vortex sight acquisition system, interchangeable belt fed squad automatic weapon that increased grazing fire out past 2000 meters ... plus, yeah, penetrates all known body armor and ceramic plates out to 600 meters. That's a serious mind-fuque-to opposing troops at that range who thought they were bullet proof until now. Skinny poop is they have an AP round that penetrates steel plates at 500 meters ... which is a total game changer.
Two completely different cartridges and platforms JoeBob.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just a bit skeptical. I suspect that like always we’re trying to fight and equip ourselves for the last war instead of the next. I guess we’ll see.
I always enjoyed the brief respite when allowed to carry 5.56. My body aches a tad these days from humping and jumping "the pig"! I am just one enlistment scum, my hats off to those of you who humped that weight longer!
A little over 11 pounds with full mag and suppressor.
Say they wanted to lighten this up a bit. Where would they eliminate weight from? It only has a 12" barrel, can't really lighten that up significantly. Maybe eliminate the t-handle?
They should have just gone back to a twenty inch barrel on the 5.56 and upped the pressure a bit. It never was a good idea to take a cartridge so dependent on velocity as the 5.56 and start turning out rifles with 16 and 14 inc barrels.
Sure, the new round gets high velocity out of a short barrel, but then you add six inches of suppressor and you are right back where you started.
I have always thought that was a big mistake. The AR-15 was built for the SCHV project. I guess they didn't bother to ask what that was later.
A little over 11 pounds with full mag and suppressor.
Say they wanted to lighten this up a bit. Where would they eliminate weight from? It only has a 12" barrel, can't really lighten that up significantly. Maybe eliminate the t-handle?
Rifle is 8.3 pounds, loaded mag is 1.4 pounds. That's not optics, no suppressor. So bare bones weight is still pushing 10 pounds.
I'm still wondering why yhe obsession with the 6.8 or 277 when the 6.5s and 7mms are so close. Maybe proportional bullet weights in what they've developed have similar BCs but given what we've got to choose from I'll take a 6.5 or 7mm long before I'd consider a 6.8.
Might be a good move to consolidate the 5.56 and 7.62 into 1 round.
They should have just gone back to a twenty inch barrel on the 5.56 and upped the pressure a bit. It never was a good idea to take a cartridge so dependent on velocity as the 5.56 and start turning out rifles with 16 and 14 inc barrels.
Sure, the new round gets high velocity out of a short barrel, but then you add six inches of suppressor and you are right back where you started.
M855 A1 works great out of 14.5 inches.
Wide spread adoption of optics has greatly reduced complaints about 5.56 effectiveness.
I think the military made the right call on the Sig fury and rifle combo, but IIRC, commercially available 6.8 x 51 ammo will not have the stainless-steel base and thus will not be producing 80,000 PSI. It therefore will have much lower performance numbers. There is potentially an issue with standard, modern bolt guns handling the pressure of the new round. Why in hell they went with 6.8 instead of 6.5 is a head scratcher.
Body armor at 600 meters? Seems like a made up requirement to force the weapon system upon us. Which in reality is like stepping back to the M14 in a shorter louder platform (without the suppressor). I would like to witness some full auto fire to see how controllable the new weapon is. Personally I think this is a fool thing to do, going to a high pressure non NATO round, dumping the intermediate rounds benefits for what exactly? 600 meter body armor penetration?
Full auto in the first few seconds here
(waits for someone to talk crap about GT without knowing his background)
That looks pretty easy to control and hits up close shouldn't be an issue. That ain't your dads M14 for sure.
Body armor at 600 meters? Seems like a made up requirement to force the weapon system upon us. Which in reality is like stepping back to the M14 in a shorter louder platform (without the suppressor). I would like to witness some full auto fire to see how controllable the new weapon is. Personally I think this is a fool thing to do, going to a high pressure non NATO round, dumping the intermediate rounds benefits for what exactly? 600 meter body armor penetration?
Full auto in the first few seconds here
(waits for someone to talk crap about GT without knowing his background)
That looks pretty easy to control and hits up close shouldn't be an issue. That ain't your dads M14 for sure.
Had he served - my dad would have been M16.... lol
Body armor at 600 meters? Seems like a made up requirement to force the weapon system upon us. Which in reality is like stepping back to the M14 in a shorter louder platform (without the suppressor). I would like to witness some full auto fire to see how controllable the new weapon is. Personally I think this is a fool thing to do, going to a high pressure non NATO round, dumping the intermediate rounds benefits for what exactly? 600 meter body armor penetration?
Full auto in the first few seconds here
(waits for someone to talk crap about GT without knowing his background)
That looks pretty easy to control and hits up close shouldn't be an issue. That ain't your dads M14 for sure.
Had he served - my dad would have been M16.... lol
My dad went from the M14 to the M16. I remember him taking me to the range when I was 10 or so and we shot the new wonder round sometime in the mid 60's. We also took one to a dock near the end of one of the runways of either Kadena or Naha AFB and shot at sharks that came to the surface after he tossed WWII era grenades into the water. I was sure you were older than I am.
I see there are 2 reasons why the 6.8 is going to replace any current military round: 1. to penetrate bullet proof vests 2. in a few years all of the rounds that America left behind in Iraq and Afghanistan will be used up. The bad guys will not be able to use our "new" ammo because it won't fit any legacy rifle chambers.
I see the American military getting away from 9mm for the same reason some day in the future.
It will take years before the Army and Marines get the old rifles and ammo out of the system. We still had a first generation night scope in our Arms room when I retired in 2005. We no longer had M14's to put it on but it was on the property reports.
Body armor at 600 meters? Seems like a made up requirement to force the weapon system upon us. Which in reality is like stepping back to the M14 in a shorter louder platform (without the suppressor). I would like to witness some full auto fire to see how controllable the new weapon is. Personally I think this is a fool thing to do, going to a high pressure non NATO round, dumping the intermediate rounds benefits for what exactly? 600 meter body armor penetration?
Full auto in the first few seconds here
(waits for someone to talk crap about GT without knowing his background)
That looks pretty easy to control and hits up close shouldn't be an issue. That ain't your dads M14 for sure.
Had he served - my dad would have been M16.... lol
My dad went from the M14 to the M16. I remember him taking me to the range when I was 10 or so and we shot the new wonder round sometime in the mid 60's. We also took one to a dock near the end of one of the runways of either Kadena or Naha AFB and shot at sharks that came to the surface after he tossed WWII era grenades into the water. I was sure you were older than I am.
Nope - my dad, had he enlisted would have been late 70's. Not even Vietnam, his older brother - maybe. We have a "tradition" of having kids young tho. Something my son has managed to break so far.
Rooster,” People do not understand how much our ammo marketplace is dependent upon milsurp brass .... andnhow badly it has already hurt us that so much is already being demilled by liberal post commanders.“
We haven’t found any LC brass since Olin took over LC in 2020.Mine was coming from Campbell and Crane. Not anymore. Are we out of the loop.
The 6.8 x 51mm requires a.308 size AR platform. Why didn't they go with something like a 6mm ARC using Sig's stainless steel case head design (2-part case with stainless case head)? That would give you +3000fps with a 105-108 grain high VLD bullet, +2000 fps at 600 yards and a thousand ft-lbs of energy at the same distance. That would be more than 2x the energy of a 75 grain .223 bullet and only 250 ft-lbs less energy than the 6.8 Sig Fury but in a .223 size AR platform and with much lighter ammo. With the Sig Fury, troops will have to carry a very large rifle and heavy ammo for excess killing capability at 600 yards. Don't like the trade-off. Concede the 5.556 NATO is underpowered, but a 6mm ARC with Sig's stainless steel case head and +3000 fps shooting a 105 grain bullet would have been a nice compromise between weight and long-range performance.
