Seems odd that the military is buying 75 cropduster.

https://www.newsbreakapp.com/n/0h36e4zi?s=a99&pd=07v7AsMQ&hl=en_US

www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/modified-crop-duster-chosen-for-special-ops-armed-overwatch-mission

Recent thread

Crop dusters are highly maneuverable. Much more so than even an A-10. Don't know, but that may have something to do with it. I suspect the "dusting" mechanism will be removed.

The defoliation tactic worked well in Vietnam.

Lately the US has been fighting in deserts where such things aren't needed but that might change,

They are not carrying chemical.

To spread low-altitude chemtrails.

IIRC, Erik Prince of Blackwater fame (in fact Blackwater founder) put together the original crop duster combat planes.

He took turbine powered crop duster planes to Austria, had a firm there arm them and used them in an operation in the Sudan. The govt didn't like it.

Erik Prince is Betsy DeVos's bother. Their Dad was a major supplier of injected mold plastic parts to GM. Betsy married well in addition to having a billionaire Dad.

DF

AND - armament ain't cheap, much less the surveillance equipment.

That high altitude crop dusting of Covid didn't kill enough of you retirees. Won't you just die already so the gubermint doesn't have to pay for your care and they can tax away your inheritance. Geesh! Peons will never learn.

Probably to honor a promise made to a campaign donor.

I dunno but I want one.

If you’ve ever seen a crop duster at work, you wouldn’t wonder why. They ought to hire some crop duster pilots. The one’s working around the house last month had to have been on meth.

Delousing of illegals' at the border. Makes the lines go faster.

I am not sure that Zyklon B is still available, but it was an effective delousing agent.

Pox Duster .. Any Pox .. Pox on your House..
Pox are US..

Counter insurgency work. Insurgents don’t have state of the art anti aircraft defences and are usually in small groups in cover so a light maneuverable aircraft would be advantageous. Or the US military will crop dust Bill Gates’ farmland.

Nick

Hopefully these planes will do a good job at what they are designated for.

Probably cheaper, quieter, faster, simpler than helicopters.

Bruce

Ever see Rage with George C Scott?

To spray us with monkey pox of course.

I wouldn’t doubt that our enemies in government are getting a head start on preventing the next Jan6. 😂

Those bastards are scared shtless of us finding proof of their crimes and holding them accountable! Their obvious abject fear and consequent overreaction is proof of their guilty conscience. Since US citizens are about the only people on earth that the US government hasn’t provided “free” Stingers and other manpads to they know don’t have to worry about air defenses from the citizens. 😉

Dusting rioters?

We wish! The entity buying (US govt) is the entity that supports the rioters. 😉

I've been guilty of crop dusting in the grocery stores lately......an old person thing.....

Why is the IRS buying thousands of firearms, millions of cartridges, and hireing 80,000 more IRS pukes?

LOL! I’d do that around the late wife when she’d be shopping. And walk off really quick and everyone around her would be staring at her like she had,,,,,, well crapped her pants.

Charlie Varrick was a pretty good crop duster...

I just stands out in my garden with my hoe ( not that ho jag!), smiles and waves!!

Bustin’ dem clods wit my own bare feets!!!

I believe they are anticipating us to hit the riot stage...

Q sez…..

Too broke for more F-35s

Rio Grande patrol- - - -after the November red wave!

To "keep the peace" in the heartland's red counties. Out where the FJB and Gadsden flags fly.

To spray roundup over more crop fields

I thought they were looking at the Brazilian Super Tucano and a newer AT6 TexaniII for this type thing. I saw one estimate where a flight cost of an A-10 was like $17k and these were like $800....few tears ago. When Trump prices were at the pump.

I would be more worried about them spraying Fentanyl at this point.

As stated, about the only place in earth that isn’t inundated with free manpads is the good old USA.

I see no operational need for this platform at first glance . Maybe CIA, low intensity ops?

Well, the food plant fires looked too suspicious.

So, massive crop killing in the name of a "new plant disease" should help

There are a lot of just plain silly comments in this thread. Some out of humor, but others bone ignorance.

Well then splain it to us.

I'm surprised the rest of the experts haven't chimed in...

Hehe hehe!


Yeah...they normally don't do that.

Grasshoppers?

There are literally hundreds of T-34C Turbo Mentors sitting in the desert at Davis-Monthan AFB that could easily be converted to "crop dusters" or whatever, instead of buying this one. Then again, there is always the possibility that some politician has their hand in the till. I'll say it again though, I really don't see ANY need for this platform other than what I originally posted

Jorge, there are lots of Special Ops missions in places of low to no threat where all other platforms are too fast, too expensive, insufficient loiter, or otherwise incompatible. We don't need hundreds of such aircraft, but we do need a few. Note that the AT-802 is being bought to replace and improve upon an existing platform, so the mission is clearly there and being flown.

You would never argue that SEAL teams have no use because they are too small, too lightly armed, and would never survive against a full enemy army, would you? This plane is a rough analogy to a SEAL team.

I'd also think you might use this instead of a UAV when the risk of loss is high- how much tech could be reversed engineered from a blown up and burned cropduster vs UAV - by the Chinese or someone?

Don't always take the F1 Ferrari to go get milk - type of thing.

I've watched crop-dusters from the highways almost daily for the last 2wks or so. They sure can turn, climb, and descend in a heck of a hurry.

Chinese grasshoppers.

They got microphones in them!


How's that for a connected dot?

Can we just not bring back the king of them all....

Chinese grasshoppers.

They got microphones in them!


How's that for a connected dot?[/quote]

Bet them mofos have chips in em too!

Splains why I can't get my 2022 superduty 3500 Denali!

Bastids!

Have the OV-10s been retired? I'm not seeing your SEAL Team analogy sorry and my question was to address as to why existing helos for example that have a decent cruise speed could not do the same mission. As to the rest, just having fun with the "fringe"...

SOLD!

My God, what a beast. Has an amazing amount of fire power and fantastic Loiter time. Also has the Dubious recognition of being a Mig killer…

How many will be operated by the Department of Homeland Security?

One major problem with re-creating the A-1 is avgas. To support that one aircraft, you'd need an entirely separate logistics line of just the fuel, in addition to going back to a piston engine and all their maintenance needs. You'd probably triple the logistics costs. (Not to mention that the jigs to manufacture the planes and engines are long gone.)

Jorge, my SEAL analogy is based on having a right-sized, highly capable resource at hand to perform "stitch in time" missions. People who argue that this plane would be useless in peer to peer engagements are missing the whole point. To make yet another analogy, a fire extinguisher may be useless against a wildfire, but that doesn't mean we don't need fire extinguishers.

What other fixed wing aircraft is capable of landing in a corn field, filling up out of an L tank in a Toyota and flying away mostly unnoticed?

[

Great thought...

Too bad Air Tractor is ESOP owned.

Bet them mofos have chips in em too!

Splains why I can't get my 2022 superduty 3500 Denali!

Bastids![/quote]


Double Bastids!

EVERYTHING Rocky said

AND

MORE!

If they can`t inject us with Covid vaccine,they will dust us instead.

All true, still doesn't change the fact that is be the cool way to go.

The skyshark!

Close air support.

Looks to my uneducated eyes kinda like a mini-A10, turbo prop.

Jorge is a Cuban pilot.

He's got no problem being wrong 100% of the time.

LOL

No, Jorge is a brilliant man. And I would never think of trying to debate him on half a dozen subjects. We may differ a bit on this topic, but it's likely a matter of different military experiences. Navy and Air Force have very different jobs, and each group sees things their own way.

I'm sure it's a plot by the deep state to lay chemtrails over every paranoid fool identified by the NSA watching all your posts on this site. They will also be dropping tiny tracking devices that will attach to you, your vehicles and your dog. Then they will drop the bumblebee size drones to observe your every move. Flying inside your home the drones will ID all your guns, read your mail and record all conversations. (https://www.newsweek.com/bumblebee-...ped-surveil-suspected-terrorists-1606396)

Once "they" have the "file" on you, the black helos will land and take you off to one of those secret CIA prisons that are found all over the internet. (https://listverse.com/2016/02/10/10-secret-cia-prisons-you-do-not-want-to-visit/)

You had best move to Waco TX, build a plywood firetrap, fill it with questionable weapons, entice young women there to impregnate. Be sure to get on UTube telling the world about your cult. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/start-your-own-cult_b_3999121)

I know all this is true because I read it on the internet. (https://www.npr.org/2018/12/28/680759871/how-much-of-the-internet-is-fake-a-lot)

Bought to put down an actual insurrection.

I rest my case. Then again, it would make a great tool for strafing reskins' coming across. Quick pass, roll, pull, stuff some top rudder and make another pass rickety split..

Correct on the AVGAS. IT became a big deal to keep even a couple of hundred gallons on board the carrier for some of the SEAL Team applications. Back to this procurement and looking at current possible scenarios (just as you say) I'm thinking existing helo inventories could cover, especially providing just in time CAS to engaged SEAL/DELTA missions in need of it. Hell Cobras are about as good as it gets. But, I'd give anything to strap that little bird on and go!

That's great.

But he's wrong a lot and he can't be made to see otherwise.

There's a word for that. Any guesses what it is?

Ha! I knew we'd getto the truth!

⁶Haha!

Yep. Nothing quite says "stealthy" and "deniable" like a Cobra gunship.

Cuban?

Ha Ha but what a Cobra gunship does say carries weight.

Yes.

Maybe hang a loud speaker underneath to play Fortunate Son on continuous loop.

Helos don’t have the range, the loiter, or the ability to hang out quietly up high while “over watching”. Also helos cost a ton more $$ per hour.

Drones. Hell, we used to do med altitude, long loiter time in the Viking using FLIR, ESM etc and the rag heads would never hear us. We'd just coordinate with AWACS and the duty CAS birds would deliver PGMs and they never knew what hit them. Then again since I don't know the suite makeup of this bird, it might work, but drones pretty much put a lot of manned, recce missions out of business if for no other reason than the ultimate savings; the life of the aircrew.

Cobras are for the end game, not the stealthy/recce mission. That's what Rocky used to do. Reece, then call in the CAS which were far from quiet, But I'll defer to your combat aviation experience.

So..what about the time in between?

In today's environment? Practically all done with drones. And BTW, the Israelis are master at this in heavily populated areas with LOTS of eyes and lots of experience at "death from above" by the IAF. What do they use besides drone? Helps at 10K with sensors hovering over populated areas (yes with very short transit times so when longer ranges are the case they use fixed wing assets and now lots of drones).

Jimmy I got a serious case of the chits today…

UAS’s definitely have a place, but they have their own logistics tail… the main reason I see for this aircraft is the flexibility. This is not a “USAF” aircraft that belongs to the COCOM fragged from ACC or STRATCOM, this is a SOCOM aircraft that belongs to the same guy who’s running the mission on the ground. It has the lowest logistical requirements of any of the current systems, while belonging to the command that is executing the mission. I completely see how this system is superior to UAS’s and other assets for the specific mission it will be tasked with. (There is a reason BTW that the U-2 is still around in the USAF and the Globalhawk isn’t).

No keep going...just wondering why the SEALS might want a quiet, fast, lethal, deniable Rocky flying about rather than having the 6th fleet parked on the coast.

If this is all solvable with drones, aircraft carriers and super duper fighter jets....who is forcing this on the SEALS?

It's not. And not by a long shot as Load Clear very nicely described above. closer proximity to the guy on the ground running the mission and at the tip of the spear. It might work very well for "just in time" support. Bottom line is a lot of guys with a lot more smarts than me, said it was GTG. Let us hope it works.

Attached is a dated video illustrating there were/are assets out there for long range/loiter time recce and CAS missions. The FLIR (Forward Looking Infrared) video was taken from an S-3B Viking long since retired (like me) but arguably one of the most versatile platforms in Naval Aviation since the F-4. We're above MANPAD reach, loitering for about 3 plus hrs. A Team was on the ground ready to pounce on a cell when they were "made" started taking fire and running like hell because they knew what was coming. A quick check with AWACS, MUCH higher up to see what was available, so they sent two F-16s. Anyway, one GBU-12 from above and they were quickly enjoying those sixty plus virgins and goats they rave about.

[video:youtube]vhttps://i.imgur.com/tijZKih.mp4[/video]

A new 802 Air Tractor today is $2,000,000 flat with no accessories!

Dumb idea!

A load of #1 buckshot would bring one down!!

Male?

Sharpsman, when Holloween comes, do not presume to dress as Sherlock Holmes. Because you have not a clue.

Thanks for your well informed input. This seems to follow, for good or for bad, the Eric Prince model of strategy against insurgents. Small groups inserted full time directly embedded into the local population (not a FOB) with all support and logistics including CAS contained locally and controlled by them. These A/C are exactly, as pointed out earlier by another, the precise thing that EP envisioned for the same exact application that EP envisioned.

It seems obvious. They're buying crop dusters to fight brush wars.

Ha!

Only a few thousand hours flying Air Tractors! Pull your head outa your ass! You’re not the only one that has flying time!

Boom . . . . .dude knows everything, stand back. 😁

Is it really that difficult to see the utility in this aircraft? LOL

I really wish COVID did 25% of what they claimed it could.

Fugking morons.

Yeah. Something small, light, fast, and deadly.

Something that you can maintain with a Leatherman, fuel with farm diesel, and pass off as an agricultural aircraft.

Sounds terrible.

Knew a chick like that once...

If the military where to load the duster up with fentanyl and dust an area 25 or 30 miles below the U.S. border it sure would slow down the influx of people crossing the border?

If Sharpsman were at all sharp, he'd realize that these aircraft only start life as a crop sprayer. They won't be anything like that when the SpecOps guys get them. And they won't be flown at all like he did. I have 300 missions and close to 1,000 hours in actual Special Ops combat flying getting my ass shot at. Let me know when YOU can speak with authority.

Authority and experience, here? The problem is not that they’re ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn’t so.

Hahaha!

So you two agree again?

Oh......
I was thinking they was gonna tea bag all of us with them.
Night Op schit and spray red state area,s with magic dust and turn us all into Liberal Socialist Democrats while sleeping..



🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

No really, but if you are referring to people that post opinions, clearly demonstrating their ignorance or lack of experience on the subject, then yes..

Jorge and I may differ a bit on some issues, but we highly respect and value each other's knowledge - which are based on real life experience.

See those thumbnail photos under our names? We did that.

I thought maybe it was tongue in cheek.

Maybe not.

Those guys certainly have a lot of hours.

So which one of you is wrong?

Neither of us. Jorge is opining based on his Navy life, and I on my USAF one. He doesn't see a need for this specialized plane, and I do. That doesn't make either of us wrong.

Yeah...but that only works in the Federal govt.

Low level slow moving planes decked the fugg out with wpn systems have a legit use.
Ground support.
Tgt desigination.
Night time ops.
Ect ect ect.

Small plane popping up over a tree line or terrian feature seemingly outta nowhere when needed and its ability to engage at extremely short or far range.
Or a small terrian hugging plane equipped with modern avionics, wpns, and a skilled pilot could raise havoc on schit
Staying below radar at 50 to 100 ft on its approach and departure.
Can you imagine what one that just had a mini gun on it could do.

A crop duster kinda fits the bill.

Sure seems to don't it?

US drug trafficking from Mexico.

All the talk is how this is a down in the weeds aircraft, popping up the see or to shoot. And I agree that's how I would likely plan to use it if I had one.
But
It's got a 25,000 ft service ceiling and a rock star optical and electronic sensor suite.

There aint' no shoulder fired SA missile gonna hit it at half that altitude. I'd be curious to see what it sounds and looks like over quiet desert at night at different altitudes.

Can anybody here rightfully tell what a turbo powered small aircraft like this sounds like at different altitudes? Rocky? Jorge? Load Clear?

And a perceived advantage over a UCAV...

You've got your Weapons/Sensors guy on the scopes keeping an eye on the actual mission location, along with everyone he's connected to across the globe. Then you've got the aircraft pilot, orbiting the mission, with his head up and alert for light flashes, reflections, motion, or anything that might signal a change in the tactical situation as it affects the mission ground element.
I would posit that a wary pilots eyes and brain make up the "ultimate sensor" to keep a mission like this aircraft is intended for on track.

Theoretically, you can and might have the cameras on your UCAV to "see" any and all of this. But do you have a dedicated tech crew member to wear the 3D headgear and keep that kind of overwatch? If so, how effective is he without a pilots "right there" perspective?
I'm sure that I don't know everything about drone warfare, but I'd bet money that the pilot with actual eyes over a mission would prevail

John, we have a turboprop sky-diving plane that operates from our nearby airport. It is clearly audible even when it's at drop altitude which I'd guess is some 15,000' AGL. But that aircraft is always at max power and climbing until immediately before the jump, so it's certainly louder than it would be with the power and the prop in cruise.

If you were going to pick an altitude to use as mission overwatch, and no one is shooting at you, what would you choose?

I can't honestly answer that, John. Tactics are so different now that I'd be guessing. Remember, my sensors were the Mk-1 eyeball.

When I was flying "radio watch" to support a covert ground team, I orbited a few miles from their location at 5,000' AGL. That put me out of all gun ranges up to .50 cal. Doing so eliminated all but the grossest visual targets, but those weren't visual recce missions. I was there only to receive scheduled reports or respond if the team went hot.

The rules said we should be at no less than 1,500' AGL to do visual recce, as that kept us mostly safe from .30-cal stuff. We kinda followed that rule - usually. We did team inserts flying at anywhere from five to 50 feet above the terrain or trees, and at only 90 knots so we wouldn't outrace the helos behind us. Over any kind of trees, that was the safest possible altitude because we were over and past them in a flash, giving them no time to shoot. Anywhere at all, 500' was the suicide zone - they had time to see, track and shoot, and little lead was required to connect with us.

Interesting perspectives from the pilots, and from the guy who has been boots on the ground needing the pilots.

How noisy is an Ag Tractor turbine? I had one making tree top level passes over my head last night for about twenty minutes. I just stood in the door of the garage and watched the show. Yes, at fifty feet, they are loud as hell, quite audible at a mile away as he turned to come back and make another pass.

My work location is about 3/4 mile from an ag landing strip. I hear the tires bark every time a crop duster hits the runway. And I hear the roar shortly thereafter which I assume is a feathered prop. But I am a bit ignorant of the mechanics involved and can only assume.

The "dusters" often pass overhead at work. Sometimes you can wave at the pilot, and he will wave back. Sometimes they are high enough that you can not discern the pilot (1500'?). But they are always audible inside the building.

I really have no idea how high they would have to orbit to remain undetectable from the ground. Of course, the planes I see (and hear) are tuned for power. Perhaps the manufacturer has some tricks to make them quiet for military missions?

They are quiet, especially with trees and terrain.

I have worked with them operating as SEATs. Single engine air tankers.

Just noticed this thread. My best friend of over 60yrs used to work out with Leland Snow in Wichita Falls. Tx. Beside having a common interest in their health, my buddy was a retired engineering designer at Collins Radio-Rockwell International.
One of my nephews just took over the engineering dept. at Airtractor. My niece said no to living in Olney, so they are in the big metropolis of Graham.

Actually, if one goes back and read all my posts, it's far from a disagreement. You and Load Clear presented some valid points and I said as much. For LIC the warfare anyway

No Sir, they will be an armored version. Only up to the 7.62 though. The new L3 version has beefed up wings to carry a heavier load. Ken said they need 1700ft of rough dirt runway to take off fully loaded and 1200ft to land.

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.php?aircraft_id=1766

Yeah....we'll see how all that 'beefing up' s hit works out at the final count!!

Farmer friend, became a crop duster a few weeks ago. Bought a turbo powered plane.

Seems he banked it too sharp making a turn while crop dusting, the plane evidently lost lift, slipped sideways onto an I-49 off ramp where he died. Inexperience for sure.

Tragic

DF

My nephew mentioned that he needed somebody to sweep the floors. Are you qualified, if so I'll put a word in for you.

My bud crashed his Air Tractor 502.

The one in the link is pretty cool.

Check out the Thrush 510G that Eric Prince had converted for close support military use in Sudan.

DF

I hope he wasn't seriously injured.

Yeah, right.

Probably better than the Cessna O2 Rocky flew so many missions in.

It looks good to me for the intended role. But if my butt was at the controls, I might wish for two engines.

Unfortunately he was killed.

Real shock.

DF

I'm glad you occasionally admit you don't know WTF you're opining about after you have your ass handed to you.

If you could do that more often you might be of value. To someone.

LOL

You are a fugking clown.

Butch!!!

Tell him there's a pretty fair old millwright/fabricator/floor sweeper coming available next year

Old,fat, stove up, and stubborn.

Counting on the stubborn part to keep me going til next year.

I'd be proud to sweep floors for such a place...

Bugs in Hunter's cocao crops?

My nephew said their best new hires were former oilfield workers. They are always looking for a few hard workingpeople.

Anyone who thinks these aren't intended to be used within the US is truly deluding themselves.

Need to replace all the PC12s and stuff left in Afghanistan.

Ask yourself why they'd design a craft to operate in remote areas and then turn around and use them for urban operations? Sometimes the paranoia gets a little silly

I really would love to have an opportunity to work for an outfit like this. Been following them since they started, and enjoying watching their planes operate.

First Air Tractor I ever saw flying was near Belleville Wisconsin. Which is a place I only go through on rare occasion. But I did grab a burger there last night.

But my working days are nearing the end. I'm on a 4 man crew and the boss came in near the end of lunch a few weeks ago with a riddle.
He asked, "What is slower than John?"
The other 3 guys are looking at each other for a clue. The boss tells them, "Absolutely nothing!"

Besides... They're in Texas....
Can't say I don't go there, as I have both family and friends that call the place home. But I could live there for 90 years and never be a Texan...

Reeks of a backroom deal.

Classic Campfire narcissist buffoon whose only retort are insults. Getting told one knows nothing about a topic I spent thirty years doing by an unemployed bum living off a woman is like a negro waxing eloquently about yachting. If you could actually read (and comprehend, but there's a stretch right there) what I posted , other than for a LIC/COIN applications, this platform in my opinion has a very narrow operational window and would be a flying grape below 7K' in most scenarios today and certainly not against a peer/near peer competitor. Stick to what you know, then again that would cut down the number of your inane drivel to maybe one post per month.

Pfffft! You owe me a keyboard after that one. LOL