For all you experts who have all the answers.

Only against a very small one.

Shootin' straight with my .38 beats talkin' jive with a .45!

They can bounce off a hard maple and come whizzing back right past your ear.

A person who understands violence and it's use can do a lot with very little.

A .38 special, by itself, is nothing special

In the hand of the experienced a .38 special is 5 or 6 opportunities to influence an outcome.

The experienced also recognize that it's easier to shoot better with a well set up semi auto pistol

Magazine capacity figures in as well. We'll not see a 15 shot revolver

Overkill- - - - -use a wrist rocket and ball bearings, or just drown the scumbag in bullscheidt like you do on the forum.

Yes, bullet placement!

Like any other hand gun. If you can hit anything with it, the 38 spl. will get the job done.

An old doctor friend (and big time gun guy) of mine said, "I wasn't a surgeon. But I got to stand in and help on some. I've seen what a .38 slug can do. I don't want shot with one".

Bullet style and type will play a factor. There will be a large difference between a round nose lead slug and Hydra-Shok or XTP.

Not an expert.

One of our local scum-bags went to Florida thinking the pickings would be easier.

His first victim was a retired nurse. She heard him break the window of her exterior door and climb the stairs to her bedroom.

She center-punched the prik right between the nipples as he entered her bedroom. Nurses have a fine understanding of anatomy.

He expired in the front yard after spray-painting the stair-well with blood.

.38 Special. She may have fired it single-action.

Another funny thread

If you're in a legitimate "me or him": everything within arms reach will be used to defend yourself.

Cartridge be damned.

Same as the 9mm.

No.

Just a tool.

It has to be used to be worthwhile.
The quality of the work rests largely in the hands of the user.

I generally ask the person I’m about to shoot if he has a preference.

Despite subsequent advances in both bullet and handgun designs, I have been told that all the guys killed with the .38 Special back then are still dead.

I haven’t heard this about the .38 S&W tho.

Place one to break the pelvis if the first couple don’t stop the perp. Even an old fat man can outrun a guy with no “wheels” under him.

Read that in Dirty White Boys, IIRC.

Same place you defeat LEO body armor, head or pelvis

38 Special...

Or 38DD...

There are so many variables...

“I pulled the head off Elvis
Filled Fred up to his pelvis
Yabba Dabba Doo, the King is gone
And so are you”

carrying one today on a short day trip. Nothing wrong with a well loaded .38 Special

Casting bullets has been a life long hobby. You don't cast bullets to look at them. I can't count the number of .358 caliber bullets that have gone thru barrels of the 38's and 357's I've owned. I have absolutely 110 % faith in their lethality, it is in the hands of the user..mb

When I was a teen ager I shot a fox squirrel through the head right under the eyes with a 158 gn LRN. S&W Model 10. Drove to a little country store. Old man on the porch said " Boy your squirrels fixin to get away" .
Squirrel was running around in the back of the truck.

Can and has thousands, maybe tens of thousands of times. A bullet that will penetrate enough to reach the vitals and placed into the vitals will do the job.

Ron

I once killed a wounded deer with one.It was loaded with fmj bullets.Wound channel looked like it was punched with a steel rod.If you plan on using a 38 special or any handgun,use good expanding bullets.

Yes

Jeez Louise how many of these.......

Can someone make one thread listing all the handgun calibers with a checkbox yes or no next to each so we can be done with these silly questions?

If the attacker has a 9mm they have to shoot you 4 times to kill you, you only have to shoot them twice with the 38...

Kent

Chronographed some Winchester .38 158 LRN recently that clocked around 620fps out of my 4” Model 15.
My loads run right at 850 with a 158 Lee FN cast out of wheel weights.
To my mind, that’s two different animals. Though admittedly I’ve never shot anything living with a .38.

Only works if you have ammo for it.

The early 38's were loaded with black powder. When smokeless powder got popular, many of the existing 38 pistols couldn't handle the pressure. Newer guns made for higher pressure are considerably more powerful. They tend to be slower than a 9mm but with a much heavier bullet which makes them better stoppers.

Bill Jordan wrote that it's the most powerful round that the average man can master.

And that was back when the average man was way more manly than today.

17 y.o. kid under bad influence of older man were going through a neighborhood with several empty homes at the time. Breaking in, taking stuff. Friend in bed with wife, had two young daughters asleep in other room, all lights off when he hears something. Looks out window and sees two men peaking in and around his house. Grabbed his 22 and kept an eye on them till one went around the back. He swapped his 22 for his 9mm and went to the basement. Sees a large shape then the door handle rocks. My friend fired one shot through the glass. and hears a moan. Kid made it to the street where he collapsed and died. Other perp's wallet was found on scene. Police think the two collided running towards each other after the shot. Parent of the kid tried to sue my friend . This was in Utah. Cops told them, 2am, trying doors with known felon I believe, multiple break-ins reported in area, wife and two baby girls asleep....forget it!

Have known James for years but he just up and told me this story when we went turkey hunting. Such a carefree type guy one would never guess he had been traumatized. He headed to sleep with ear plugs in and I joked about my snoring. He told me he now sleeps with ear plugs every night because he does not want to hear anyone breaking in. They can have whatever they want. He said the kid looked like a nice young kid. Can't imagine how many what-if scenarios have played through his head.
Single shot of 9mm ball through a glass window.

What if they are in a tank?

I tell people to get a Ruger .380 for home protection. It might not kill them outright but it's small and easy to point in a rush. They'll know they entered the wrong house.

So what’s the max for a fat tranny in pink slippers? Asking for a friend……

Pot meet kettle.

Yes.

Only if one uses these.

Pragmatically speaking, the .38 Special is simply a rimmed version of the 9mm.

Anyone that says either one is not suitable for combat, gunfighting, or self-defense, is a fugking moron.

My carry is a .380 Colt Mustang . God forbid it’s ever called on it will likely be close range and in vitals.

And we have an esteemed Fire member who saved a bunch of folks in AK when he used one on a big brown bear and ended its day.

Are you referring to Phil Shoemaker?

I shoot 158 LRN’s out of mine at 650-750 fps. That’s plenty.

Saw them guys last night in Baton Rouge. Pretty sure they ain’t defending nobody from nothing.

Nearly spit/spilled my coffee

These :





are Polymer coated 158 grain SWCs. Thanks to modern advancements in powders (don't ask me for the load) as well as bullet coatings they run around what the old 38-44 loads did back in the day, but are safe for K Frame and J Frames with steel cylinders.



In testing velocity numbers are as follows:

Ruger Security 6" 1200 FPS
S&W Model 15 4" 1115 FPS
S&W Model 442 1&7/8ths" 1020 FPS


Inserting shameless link here:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/17745764#Post17745764



When doing the chronograph work I tested some American Eagle 158 grain .357 Magnum jacketed soft point.

The American Eagle Jacketed Soft Point .357 Magnum was 10-12 FPS slower on average (I tested a couple times) than this Poly Coated SWC .+P 38 Special ammo.

The fact is that with proper loading techniques, and modern components, the .38 Special is far more capable than the old days of round nose lead at 750 -850 FPS.

The only thing holding it back is that there are quite a few older .38 Specials out there, some of which can be over 100 years old, so some of the larger ammo companies put out rather watered down ammo, similar in fashion to the 30-06. Most of the factory 30-06 is not even close to being loaded to its potential due to concerns of it being fired in a rifle that is not in proper working order.

The .38 Special load shown above was far from the max load found during development and T&E. However, it was a good point where excellent velocity and accuracy came together in a fine tuned load.

It turns the 4" K Frame .38 Combate Masterpiece into a whole other animal.

IMO, Humans are the weakest species in animal kingdom.
If a 22 can kill you.
I’m sure 38 special can do it as well.

Good stuff. I've been doing a fair bit of loading & shooting with 38's & 357's lately. Saw your velocity results and my first thought was "Yup, those are about 357 magnum level."

I do enjoy shooting a good 38/357 revolver and carry one often.

Regards, Guy

To turn a phrase, "it'll blow a lung out!"

Seriously, a modern .38 special load is just as effective as any other well placed round.

Yup, they're the same thing, only different. The difference being the round capacity of the firearm.

Confrontations aren't settled by calibers or hardware. They are settled by skill and resolve.

I’ve checked out the +P thread in the handgun section and it’s been interesting.

I’m running R-P brass and CCI-500’s. Have used Unique and switching over to Tru-Blue. Would likely pick up another 100fps with Starline Brass and Win. Primers like the Ramshot Data calls for (a switch I’ll likely make at some point).
I’ll run these loads in both my 15 and Grandads old Det. Special, so 950fps (with different brass and primers out of the 15) is likely as stout as I’ll go.

While I certainly see the utility, if I think I’ll need something more potent, either a .45ACP or .45 Colt will get the call.

Only if you have at least a 4" barrel so after shooing them with all rounds you can beat them with it.

Better off with a slingshot.

One of the internet ballistics geeks will prove you wrong!

It just depends on what you feed it. Most people know I'm a fan of S&W Model 10s. I like 158 grain swaged SWCHP's over 7 grains of AA#5. It's pretty much a duplicate of the old FBI load. I'm not biased against 9mm, however. I've got a hi cap 9mm that stays close.

The difference I see is, a 9mm has to be loaded to high velocity with fairly hi tech bullets to get good expansion where a the old .38 swaged SWCHP made out of a lump of plumbers lead will flatten out the size of a nickel if you push it to about 975 fps. They're old school, low pressure loads that perform. 9mm needs high pressure and high tech bullets to be as effective as those old school, soft, .38 loads.

.38 special's suck, so send me any you have and I'll trash them for you.

38 is a 357 short.

Launcher of big lumps of properly shaped soft plumber's lead at mach .9. It'll punch six nickel sized holes plumb through a fat man.

If the fat man has his Adreline mojo in gear, he might fug you up anyway. But if that's the case, nothing you can hold in one hand is going to fix it,....maybe a baseball bat,....I dunno.

38 special has been around for over 100 years and has been primary arm of law enforcement for a century. We used it in the 1980's shooting +P ammo in law enforcement and it did the job. Just like anything else shot placement is the key. So yes 38 Special is an excellent home defense caliber. They key with any caliber is practice.

My 38 Special is a S&W 586 so chambered. I picked it up years ago, new, for a very good price at a Jumbo Sports. I mostly shoot mild fun loads in it, and in this revolver "standard +P" (if that makes sense) still fit into that category. I used to shoot a lot of the 90's vintage Hornady swaged SWC HP bullets. One of those in the center of the chest probably wouldn't do a perp much good.

It wasn't all that long ago when most people simply did not have the large amount of disposable income that so many do today. They simply could not afford to shoot ANYWHERE NEAR as much as many people do today. Many people could not, and did not, practice shooting all that much, even if they wanted to, and it takes practice to get used to heavier recoiling guns.

This is why it was common to describe the kick of a .45acp as being "like a mule!" .357 magnum was considered brutal (hey, it still ain't all that pleasant...). Gun people today do a LOT more shooting, and get used to much more powerful guns.

I casted up a bunch of 148g tl Lee soup cans that I'm getting ready to load up. I'd like to find a load that will get me 850 from a 1&7/8 lcr and 360pd without pushing the pressure up too high. Any ideas what powders will do that. I'll probably start with 5g of universal.

Bb

I just got some Ramshot Silhouette powder (haven't done anything with it yet) that is supposed to give good velocities with pretty low pressure (within a certain window), and looks to be just right for .38 Special. Might want to take a look at it.

craigster: YOU.... being the "expert" I will advise (NO promise!) YOU that YOU do NOT want ME shooting at YOU with any of my 38 Special revolvers!
PERIOD!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I come from a different school of thought. I keep 12 gauge pumps with extended magazines around. Magazine loaded, chamber empty, safety off and dry fired. All I need to do is stroke the slide once and I am ready to go to work. Everyone knows that sound so that is the "warning shot". Middle of the night, dark, no glasses (likely slightly intoxicated) A 12 gauge is my "go to", not a handgun.

Agree with 160 here.

There is no reason to deliberately handicap yourself by intentionally choosing a marginal cartridge/platform over something that would be considered optimal. A person generally does not get to choose the circumstances of a lethal force incident, but in the context of home protection, as stated above, I would choose a shotgun or rifle/carbine over a handgun. If the long gun was not an option I would choose a semi auto handgun with a significant on board capacity that allowed me to deal with situations and not worry about reloading initially, as my hands may be occupied doing other tasks.

Ive investigated a fair number of shootings. One thing I have noted is that in the distances where most fights take place, people who get hit with shotguns and rifles, I end up examining those people at an autopsy. People shot with handguns usually go to the hospital. A good part of that reason is that many of the people who get shot with handguns get shot with cheap FMJ type ammunition and their wounds are less than impressive. Many get treated and released withing hours. People who get shot with other types of ammo, often do not do as well.

Shotguns, when loaded with traditional buck and slug, simply are devastating. Same can be said for some heavy field loads. One case I worked was a triple. A double murder, then suicide where the scumbag used a shotgun. He shot the mom and young daughter with goose loads at less than 10 feet, before he put the barrel under his chin and painted the ceiling and surrounding area with bone, brain and blood matter.

Long story short. Shotguns at very close range are completely devastating.

These are mostly for fun, taking the wife, daughter, grandkids out to the desert tomorrow morning. They have their place...

but in the house it gets serious...

Never said I was an expert. But judging from your self proclamation, you must be. Am I supposed to be impressed ?

For all these /\ /\ /\ reasons, I chose the 20GA.

Youth Model Mossberg. Short barrel, short stock, 6 rounds 2 3/4” #3 Buck. No doubt in my mind about across a room damage.

Not to say handguns aren’t available.

I hunt deer with a 9mm Glock 17. No pig or deer I"ve shot at has ever gone more than 30 or 40 steps..

It depends on how determined a defender the particular member of the band happens to be.

I fall into this school of thought...

being a high level trained military corpsman, and trained to treat all sorts of wounds on the battle field...

its easily to learn, that just by reverse engineering a wound in your head.... you can figure out shot placement location and what kind of bullet to use.
easy to do if you are taught about A & P....

I like XTPs... a LOT... if disabling the attacker is what you need to do to defend yourself or your family and loved ones.

I hope so, I have one by the door and one in the nightstand

Thousands would tell you “yes, it’s effective”, but they be dead.

Jim Cirrillo was a NYPD stakeout squad cop back in the 60s. Was involved in more than 250 shootouts and survived, killed more people than any other cop.

His main weapon was a Smith Model 10, 38 Special. Not sure what loads but back then issue ammo was pretty anemic. I think he rolled his own but not sure.

Are the 158 polymer coated bullets homemade or factory stuff?

Interesting read.

https://supervelammunition.com/our-story/

The next stupidest question is about shooting deer with a .223…

250 shootouts? Come on man, Joe Biden tell you that story?

I'm no handgunner, but we seem to ignore a lot of history. I think it was called the Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904. Anyway I'll spare you the details...but only one cartridge tested exceeded the .45 ACP...it fired a 265 gr lead round nose at 650 fps...it was called the .455 Eley/Webley. Accounts of British officers serving in trouble spots around the world verified it's effectiveness on the bloody wogs. Many of whom were on drugs. So I suppose you could say that velocity is a small factor in lethality.

250 shootouts ????? Come on man, Joe Biden tell you that story?

I just did a little looking around and the figures run 20 +/- which seems much more realistic.

I have never shot anything living with any of my 38s except for a couple of armadillos. That said, my model 10 with 158 grain hollow point +P loads sure does a number on milk jugs, watermelons and pumpkins etc. I would not want to be hit with one.

my brother went on the job, NYPD 1978. He knew Jim Cirillo, never worked with him but met him quite a few times. i’m not sure how many shoot outs he had But I think 250 he would’ve been rubber gunned permanently :-) I think he took a couple of guys with a 12 gauge double barrel Stevens. My brother had 8 shoot outs as a New York City police Officer,six on the books two never reported :-) that’s the way it was back then. The majority of his time was spent in the 77 Precinct Utica Ave., Brooklyn, NY. One of the worst precinct's if not the worst precinct New York City, look it up. In his career he was narcotics/stakeout squad, Street crime and gun squad. His last few years he was homicide. he retired as a first grade detective. He retired in 2006.When he was in the gun squad he had 125 guns off the street in one year, They were his collars he told me he gave a half a dozen away to the new guys to give them a gun collar make them look good. my brother always carried two revolvers, a model 10, and numerous different snubnose revolvers over the years. He felt the 38 special was A good caliber it got the job done. he’s got some crazy stories, loved every minute of it until the last couple years in a homicide sounds crazy but that’s what got to him. Sorry for the long post, those guys back then we’re some of the best cops in the world, if not the best. they didn’t have their hands tied, they ran the streets!

My nephew has only been a cop for five or six years, and has had two shootouts (just him vs the armed perp, i.e., no help). Both times, though, he was toting his AR, and that's what he won the shootouts with. Easy to outrange someone, I guess, who shoots at you with a handgun when your gun is a red-dot-equipped AR. His Glock has never left its holster "in anger."

In a 25 year career - that's only 10 a year or one every 5 weeks....

I commercially load this ammunition.

It does not perform like 1980s era anemic typical big box store stuff. Newer powders and modern coatings have allowed the .38 special performance to be significantly improved.

a 22 to the eye ball or knee will generally put some stop to a 2 legged animal

thanks for that Hawkeye , good video answers my questions 6" ruger Blackhawk.

norm

I loaded some “hard cast” poly coated DEWC at what I SWAG-ed to be a little quicker than DEWC bare lead loads. Have not chronoed them. They seem to be well in standard pressure range in a late model Airweight and a Model 15. Next loads will be the 158 SWC coated w/o grooves at either 12 or 18 BH with Power Pistol.

Without digging into actual load data, how do you, with your testing, see pressures of coated lead in the 12 to 18 BH range compare to pressures in bare lead of the same hardness? Or poly coated compared to jacketed/plated. Will probably have to SWAG charges again without published data.

My old man was (is retired) a surgeon who specialized in trauma. He served in action in Vietnam, worked in Dallas when it was a rougher town, and Detroit when it was the same as it ever was, and quite a few other places.

When I shot a deer with a load of 20 gauge buckshot for the first time, the deer dropped on the spot and we butchered it. Butchering in this case meant a thorough anatomy lesson and dissection for me to learn from. His assessment was that the wound channels looked like someone shot it with a bunch of .38 special bullets. I took it from what he said that he thought a .38 could get the job done, but he always had a handgun handy and never owned a .38 as far as I know.

I looked too.

Might have been 252 total for the entire Stake Out Unit.

25 for Cirillo, 10 fatalities.

that seems like plenty of experience

Yes, older folks love .38 Special. You can buy excellent ammo in this caliber. The Federal Premium Micro HST +P which was designed for light weight snubs is prime example of that. The HST JHP bullet is completely enclosed in case just like wadcutter target ammo. This prevents bullets from coming out of case under recoil.

The English gentlemen officers could not cope with large revolvers so the .38/200 was invented. Today it is commonly known as .38 S&W although bullets are lighter in weight.
Going back to beloved round of retirees, life was simpler years ago where there were .38 Special police loads (famed FBI thumper) and target loads. That was when candy bar was 35c. Today when candy bar is about $2 to separate rubes from 💵 the +p concept was invented (from what I see that is the original police load). The modern 9milli honchos have even more complex choices: subsonic, standard, +P, +P+.😱 I freed myself of that BS by choosing .40 S&W.

Nugget thinks you are a idiot..

🖕Nugget, I like simple life. Gun sighted in at factory with 180gr loads. I buy those, shoot four cylinders worth to make sure the gun functions and shoots to point of aim, finito.🤸🕺

You write weird nugget thinks you are a fake.. my 3rd foster home they were slavek and they did not sound like that..

Thanky you. Do you also cast or press the bullets and then coat them with polymer or are the projectiles factory made?