Ok I gotta ask if any of you have ever had to leave a fresh kill overnight in coyote/wolf country?

Does this trick really work in your opinion?

I have never had the circumstances of leaving a deer in the field overnight but I have walked up on deer that looked to be dead for a couple days in coyote country with no signs of feasting.

If one has no other choice it can’t hurt.
Have read that taking a leak in the immediate vicinity of the carcass also works.

I've bloodtrailed South Texas deer shot in the evening and found coyotes on them an hour after the shot.It don't take them long in some areas.

This just now popped up on my Utube.

Yes, I tried it one time and it worked for me. Only time I ever had to leave a deer kill and go get help.

Shot my best and biggest buck ever, had a pack of howling coyotes practically on top of us in literally minutes. Skipped field dressing it to keep the scent of blood and guts to a minimum and started dragging it out of the woods. Got it out of the woods and only about 40 - 50 yards into into a freshly cultivated and plowed field and couldn't drag it any farther as it was simply too heavy. The coyotes followed right behind as far as the edge of the woods stopping there, howling and running back and forth apparently badly wanting me to leave so they could start chewing on my deer. I knew I had to go get help so I hung a well used blaze orange "heater"cushion I always carried in cold weather to sit on in my tree stand on the bucks rack, the wind blowing my scent from the cushion back towards the woods.

Came back about an hour later with help, deer was totally untouched and coyotes were gone.

In case you have to leave, go home and watch Thr Masked Singer….or maybe Wagonmaster, Wagon Train, War Wagon, Paint Your Wagon, or whatever dumb shît Walter Brennan movie for the 23rd time

Always layering in cold weather & that includes a vest. That vest was draped over a Mule deer in the Co. Rockies overnight with a couple of dead limbs holing it down. Another time tied around Elk quarters in Montana.


Maybe dumb luck, but neither showed any signs of being bothered by any critter.

It does not work here. In recent years I know of two instances where people have left things behind by intent or not and wolves took the deer in the night.
Wolves in my area are precious and can’t even be looked at sideways so fear of man isn’t at all what it once was. Tracks on my place during darkness tell the tale up close to the buildings. Peeing near your kill is not worth the bother. I’ve had both coyotes and wolves come in and urinate directly over mine while trapping. Some predator trappers even do it as a draw.
In areas with human pressure human scent may be detriment, not here.

Osky

I've heard that leaving a t-shirt works very well because it's been against your skin and has the most scent. I've left clothing before and never had a problem but I don't know if any wolves or bears were around to take it anyway. I don't know any way to prove that it works without a live predator to test it.

I'm not sure that peeing around it works. I've heard of guys peeing out their tree stands and still having deer come in. A deer isn't a wolf, of course, so I don't know if it works or not. However, if you have to pee before you leave the deer, you might as well do it.

I've had to leave a few overnight in NM, CO back country.

I peed on logs and rocks around them, cut underwear off and into strips, wiped butt, hung on spindly brush around it to move in the breeze.

Never had an animal hit overnight in country with coyotes and bear.

Grizz don't care

According to my trail cam documentation a rough order is birds find it first, bears second, coyotes and wolves show up when the bear is full.

Don’t have the grizzly to contend with but pissing around the carcasses I believe has kept mine from getting hit by black bears and coyotes.

I've had to leave elk out overnight a number of times while I went for my llamas. So far, so good. We don't have griz here but we're not short of wolves and black bears.
For the record, leaving a whole elk in the woods over night makes for the most tender meat. By morning, it'll be largely out of rigor and ready to cut up. I'd rather not have to leave it in the field but it does have a plus side.

Coyote country? I’m pretty sue EVERYWHERE is coyote country. I once left my jacket on a Ontario bear to deter wolves until I could return with help. Did it help? I’ll never know. I kept my underwear, however.

For us in northern MN the bears are for the most part down for the winter when deer season is in progress. At least the rifle season. There is no better olfactory than those on birds, ravens and crows first here eagles come next.
During deer season here the sound of gunfire particularly in the late day hunt has the wolves a step ahead and if interested they work their way in. When I set carcasses on ice in the winter for the few coyotes we still have, according to my cameras and my being on site watching wolves show up in the last half hour of shooting light most often.

Osky

I dumped a big guy way back and could only manage to pack out his head, cape and a front quarter before dark. I carried 50’ of nylon rope and a small two and three wheel pulley set in my pack and that deer went way up out of reach in a white pine.

MPat70;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope that the weekend has been kind to you thus far and you're well.

In our part of south central BC we've got no shortage of coyotes, more wolves than we'd like and also contend with black bears, the occasional grizzly, turkey vultures, ravens, bald eagles and magpies that will come and "share" the carcass with you if given the opportunity.

We've kept coyotes off of carcasses or partial carcasses on 3 occasions wrapping a space blanket around it. On one occasion we were able to observe a coyote at the carcass and it didn't like the crinkly space blanket one bit, jumping nearly every time the wind blew it.

Also we'll hang lots of trail tape at the carcass so we can see it from as far away as possible and be prepared in the event something is there that doesn't want to share.

I want to say we've left a shirt or vest once too, but honestly unless it's something you can easily replace, I'd maybe suggest not leaving it there to get covered with bird feces at minimum.

From talking to friends who've had direct experience with them, I'd agree with Brother Fubar in that grizzly bears don't care about whatever you might leave there. I've also had a black bear climb up a tree to reach over and help itself to a mule deer hanging high enough, but apparently not on a meat pole with enough span to work.

We do whatever we can shy of moving heaven and earth not to leave anything overnight here because we're seeing more black bears than we've ever seen in the 38 years we've lived here and even they tend to be tough to dissuade from sharing - especially under cover of darkness.

Hopefully that made sense and was useful to someone out there.

All the best and good luck on any remaining hunts.

Dwayne

Here's the first I agonized all night about. 2 miles up Graveyard Canyon in SE NM Sacremento Mts.

The day before I had walked the ridges in near freezing rain with waterlogged, heavy wool and had trouble drying my glasses and scope with wet toilet paper and underclothes trying to get the crosshairs on him.

I shot it my 270 wby mag across a canyon with oak brush. Tried to mark it, went down, crossing the steep canyon, climbed the other side and couldn't find him. I left my hat on a bush top and made the hellacious trip back across the canyon. Figured out where the buck went down, cleaned binocs again, found my hat on the bush, made the miserable trip again and found the buck about 40 yds from my hat, got my hat on my wet freezing head, gutted it, peed all over, etc and headed back down Graveyard two miles to my truck and then drove to the Circle Cross Ranch house totally exhausted.


Came back the next day on horses with the ranch Mgr and got my deer loaded. I was very happy to see the varmints had not messed it up.

Damn Jag! You got old!!!!




🤣🤣🤣🤣

I live in the heart of wolf, black bear, cougar, and coyote country and have yet to loose any meat left over night when the tee shirt I wore was left hanging and blowing in the wind. I have always left the tee shirt worn to bear bait site and after a couple days they are use to my smell and even had one climb our stand and smell my boots before going down and back to the grub barrel.

Only by the Grace and Miracles of Almighy GOD and a couple of Guardian Angels.

And that, KW is the Truth. It strained HIM a few times, too.

Retired forest ranger taught me the trick of carrying a small pack of moth balls, sealed air tight twice with vacuum sealer.

Spread the moth balls around the downed carcus, bears, lions will never touch it.

Plenty of times. It’s not like a wolf is around every corner. Throw your hat on it until you come back.

A bit off topic but I do this all the time, mostly now hunting from the ground. No problem - deer simply ignore it, and I've been whitetailin' a long time.

-Ken

Taking a leak doesn't do anything. Try it in front of a trail cam and the coyotes and deer stand there a minute and sniff it. I never had to use a t shirt, however, I do have 2 double block and tackles wit 50 ' of rope . The coyotes wont get it . The crows might pick the eyes but I never had to use the block and tackle.

I've lost deer to both wolves and coyotes, overnight and within a couple hours. It's not 100% but your best chance at keeping them away is leaving a sweaty tshirt or underwear on them.

Na, Jag got that one just last year and photoshopped his own mug....

A bud and I had a moose down. Packed the first load over the ridge to the float-plane lake, stashing the game-bagged pieces on a big root wad in the shade, went back for more. On our final (3rd?) return, some bags were down, torn, toothmarks....

I left my bud in our camp, about 100 yards from the meat, while I hiked the 5 miles out to the truck to arrange for a plane. He cleared a little brush for a good sight-line to the meat, made coffee, and potted the young black bear when it came back less than an hour after I had left. Luckily, it was only a blackie - there was a week-old kill site about 50 yards from where I had dropped my bull, which was why, probably, that the bear was looking and likely trailed us back to camp. I suspect a brown bear had already mostly cleaned up the old gut pile, and moved on, so we got lucky.

Out of Kotzebue a few years ago, I got foolish and shot 5 caribou bulls (my daily bag limit). Don't do that!!!! But damn - that was fun- started at the back of the single-line string of about a dozen and worked my way forward. Ran the string of the 5 rounds in the M98...

My little POS sled behind the Bravo snowmachine would only hold two, with my survival pack, so after gutting, I gathered the rest into one pile, covered them with a poly-tarp, anchored around the edges by snow and brush branches, and retrieved them the next weekend. The tarp had blown off half of one, which had been worked over and copiously shat on by ravens. Apparently a lot of ravens.

Those two are the only incidents of this sort I have incurred. Clothing or piss marking would have made no difference.

Pee is supposedly sterile (I read somewhere - probably in treating snake-spit to the eyes in Africa). I wonder if it carries little or no human scent. Or if it does, it doesn't matter. And yeah, canines, at least, will mark over human pee spots. It's what they do. And they will then trespass on "your" territory.

Farley Mowat ("Never Cry Wolf") was full of scat.

Leaving a clothing article behind for a lost dog works, but I dunno about on a kill. Can't hurt to try, I suppose. I have my doubts tho, considering I've had radio covers, chain-saws. sleeping pads, a hoodie, and have seen a plastic Coleman canoe and other stuff chewed on by bears. Most or all of it had plenty of human scent on it.

Your best bet is to move the meat as far away from the gut pile as possible. I've hung stuff above 10 feet in trees, and found wolf and bear tracks underneath later. A friend protected his elk kill from coyotes and coons by hanging the bagged pieces over the edge of shear rimrock. Another guy I know hung half his caribou kill about 5 or 6 feet off the ground, under a spruce a mile down off the mountain from where he had killed it. By the time he got back a few days later (it was a 10 mile pack out), a wolf had pulled it down- I got there before he did, on my own hunt, and saw the story in the snow. The wolf had cut his trail part-way down, and tracked right down behind him. i don't know when.

Once you’ve been there there’s enough of your scent there that if scent is going to work (which it isn’t) leaving a hat isn’t going to add much.

Set up a trail cam nearby on your kill that you lave the clothing on. Trail cam will record their action, maybe.

Yep a mule deer buck in Northwest Colorado in 84 it was snowing dressed it out then packed it with snow the only thing that fuqked with it overnight were the Magpies

I'm thinking deer in areas people frequent may act different to human smell, urine, etc than deer or elk in back country.

I've climbed trees bowhunting and has deer come bdownwindour later and 10 ft downwind and nearly jump out of their skin and run a short distance away.

I've seen muley does come into a little forest meadow on a trail in the evening and smell where I twisted a tiny sapling away on my side of the trail for me to get a clear shot with an arrow that evening hours later. The hair stood up as she started searching the area until she ratted me out 6 hours after I left my scent there.

A few times I've seen elk turn and haul ass back after smelling my track I took into the waylay spot 2 hours earlier. One cow was com8ng up the trail I had walked down much earlier. If the bull had been on her tail I would have stuck him but he was following her from 60 yards behind when she passed by me and then hit the spot I left as I had come down the trail. She turned tail and went back past him and he turned as he was just in range and left with her. Crap. Big 6x6.

I wouldn't leave a deer in the field. At the very least it would be field dressed, cut in half and hanging in a tree. If I couldn't hang it I'd bone it and pack it out since I always have a packframe with me. More than once I've come out of the woods long after dark by flashlight with a loaded packframe. Coyotes are welcome to the gutpile, skin and bones

What about bobcats?

I’ve never seen it myself,

But hear of folks finding deer they lost, next day..

Covered up in leaves and sticks....

I have had moose trail me. Mostly cows.

The best one ... At daylight I came almost half a mle down a long boggy meadow, got up in my birch tree stand on the point of the ridge overlooking said meadow.

A while later a cow came out and hit my trail and stopped . She stood there for a couple minutes, then dropped her nose down to the game trail and tracked me right down, standing there 15 feet under the tree stand with a puzzled look on her face.

The double tine bull that I killed had come to the stand I was calling from earlier, and had left to take a dump a couple hundred yards away. When I rounded the spruce tree on my return, he had his nose buried in my trail out from the tree-stand.
You ain't gonna do that with an elk or moose- not in one load anyway. I've done it with caribou, but those are generally 100# plus pack-outs, and I've oldened (not smartened) beyond that! Thank God!

Shot a decent buck a few years ago coming home from work on a property we own down the road.Didn’t have a knife in the truck so went home and grabbed supper and the knife.Was gone a hour tops get back to the deer hind quarters are ate to the bone coyotes.

I never said I'd do it with an elk or moose. This thread is about deer which is why I posted what I did. For what it is worth I have taken 25 elk and if I had an elk down 3 quarters would be hanging and one would come out in my packframe. Done that many, many times.

My dad always carried a can of black pepper when he hunted out west. When he killed an elk he poured the pepper all over it. He said it kept other animals from eating it before he could get it out.

It’ll eat the undies as an appetizer.

I've never heard that trick before. I can see why that would work though. This I will remember!

Yes, it works. Coyotes in South Texas are thick. I leave my jacket on them and they don't bother it. Otherwise, it's gone in a flash.

This!

Back when I wed bow hunting the rule to wait a half he after a shot don’t work I had 2 deer eaten by coyotes in the 30 min window
Always evening
The old timers say to leave a coat or hat for sent
Never tryed it as I never really had to leave one

I have left a small radio on overnight beside a deer we had hanging only a few ft off the ground, concerned about the Wolves howling nearby, deer was still there in the morning. I always carry a small radio in my pack, weighs little and can be a good friend if your out all night unexpectedly.

Yep- that's the way.

I've heard of, but never tried the radio and moth-ball methods.

I know the OP was talking about deer but it's the same for larger animals. I don't know how many times I've read about hanging an animal at least 10' high to be out of reach of bears or wolves. Has anyone actually tried to get an elk 10' high? It's going to take some serious rope and pulley work and all that gear is going to be heavy.

Some years ago I shot a buck a ways back. My partner and I boned it and took it all in 1 trip. A few days later, we were back there trying to find a deer for my partner. I went over to my gut pile to see if any bear or wolf tracks were around it. There was no 'it'. Hide, guts, bones, all gone. Even the blood was licked up from the grass. Between the grass and rocks, we couldn't find any tracks. There were both bears and wolves in the area. I assume it was wolves but never found any evidence.

Proof some guys are pussies.

Great idea.

It's luck. Try to get out as much as you can, but sometimes when it's 2 am and you've got several pack outs left, it needs to wait until morning. Thus far, have been lucky.

I have, with one yearling moose and several caribou, solo. A partner would have helped tremendously! it can be done, but...

You ain't wrong!

There are some decent not-too heavy/bulky 3-strand block and tackle pulleys that can, with difficulty, hoist 60-70 pound pieces. The moose was 5 miles in, the caribou about 10, backpacking.

I'm no smarter, just older and less motivated.

You've just about done it all las.

You're blessed.

Never had to leave a game animal. Looks to me like buzzards would be on it purty damned quick.

Not after cold weather hits. Skunks can cause a mess if cold weather hasn't put them up, however. Opossum too.

I guess it depends on geography.... my only problem has been crows, ravens and magpies... luckily

Pee communicates different meanings in different applications. I’ve had wolves and coyotes pee on my pee but my experience makes me think that it also has deterrent uses.

Pile up tree branches with tops together and pee on the tops. Holding the dry butt ends place the branches around the meat or animal you are leaving. IME that has kept predators/scavengers away from meat. It has worked on coyotes, cats and many black bears for 24 to 48 hours, but have no confidence in it keeping away grizzlies and wolverines. Not enough proven wolf experience to opine.

Applied this way I think that it warns predators to keep away from this human’s meat cache or he will kill you. Last year I left a small buck overnight in forest on the Olympic Peninsula. By the next morning, something (probably black bear) had eaten every trace of the entrails a few yards from the low hanging buck, but did not touch the deer. I could be totally wrong but it has worked for decades.

My family has backpack hunted for decades and left many deer and other animals out overnight and up to a week in Washington State, Idaho and Montana, plus south central BC. Only one deer had a small portion eaten and that after being left for several days in Idaho snow. I don’t like to leave meat out in northern BC, and it is risky in the Canadian Rockies.

Several years ago, my partner shot a buck a few miles back. We laid the deer on the hide with the heart and liver next to it and covered it with pine boughs hoping to keep the flies off, then hiked out for my llamas. The next morning the heart and liver were gone but the deer wasn't touched. We figured it was a fox or pine martin.

When I was alot younger, if we shot a deer bow hunting, and it was cold enough, we track it in the morning, about 10-12 years ago if you left it , it would be eaten by bears or coyotes. Now we have coyotes after them as we are tracking, and have run them off

Only one I've had to leave overnight was because I couldn't find it. No coyotes or wolves back then so no worries.

I have had yotes take most of the hindquarters from a young one in the 30 minutes it took me to find it. It's thick where that one was and I know they could hear me. I never saw or heard them.

Yeah I’m sure wolves and grizzly bears are scared schit less of your pee-pee and Seattle Seahawks t-shirt.

Gimme a break.

A guy COULD use a Vikings t-shirt. All critters know only one quarter would be worth bothering with.

Osky

A guy COULD use a Vikings t-shirt. All critters know only one quarter would be worth bothering with.

Osky

Now that is funny right there!

I’m sure it’s mentioned here, if you wound a deer & it runs off, likely eaten by coyotes or whatever overnight. This thread is about an animal you kill & walk up to, field dress.

Some say just field dressing the deer leaves enough scent around. I’ll go with extra insurance.

We shot an elk in CO in the afternoon, plenty of coyotes around, tracks, yipping, Mtn lion tracks also, even saw a bear nearby. We field dressed then I left my T-shirt on the carcass for the night. The next morning, the carcass was untouched, 1 mile from camp.

I just don’t think most predators can enjoy a meal with heavy human scent around. Yes, I’m versed in trapping too, need scent control to catch coyotes.

Had always left a deer in the woods at the Farm if it was cool enough if shot close to sun set....back in 1990 made a shot with a muzzleloader the last minutes light couldn't find blood with a flashlight....came back the next morning at first light still couldn't find blood went and walked the far fence row and found what was left of the deer....had never seen a coyote track ever in the area now you see tracks in every field and never leave a deer in the field with out a coat to keep coyotes off it....

I also hunt the UP there has alway been coyotes since I started hunting there back in 1976 we never had a problem with over a couple hundred deer kills....in 1978 saw my first wolf tracks in the UP trying to run a deer down....we never left a buck from then on for any amount of time with out at least a hat in them until we returned....

Was bow hunting with my Boss at the time in the Northern Lower he wanted some does harvested....his son shot a doe the first morning at first light heard the deer go down with a very good shot with in 2 minutes he could hear growling and yapping the direction the deer went.....2 hours later got out of the tree stand and walk in the thick brush and scare of a couple coyotes off....most of the hind quarters were eaten by coyotes no 50 yards from the tree stand...

Shot a mule deer in Texas where coyotes would easily devour a deer overnight. I wasn't able to get it out till following day, so I left my t-shirt & flavored chapstick on top of deer, next day all good/not been touched.

Never has been a concern down here in Tn to me.
Distances just ain't that great if dropping or retrieving stuff back at the truck before dragging something out.
Never have been in that position anyways.
Just leap frog on my day pack and gun while dragging.

In Maine growing up .
Drop a buck out in the willy whacks of 4x4 mile unincorporated townships like your T series blocks.
And ya got a hour or 2 hump back to camp to round up people to help drag.
It was a worry with yotes.
Leave Day pack on the chest.
Couple ciggerette butts on the chest.
Long john top.
Piss around on a tree.

Think it is more for a peice of mind urban legend old timer passed on thing....
But I would do it in the hope it would work
Dont think any of it would scare off a hungry predator on a easy score.

3 times as a teen in the late 70,s and early 80,s
Once in 2000
Never had yotes raid a Carcass...
But that is more attributed to any yotes being in the down wind scent vector and out and about during the day when they are mostly nocturnal predators anyways

Bears by november are pretty much going into den mode or pretty close to it up their.

Down here in Tn
Not an issue.
Might be on a evening shot deer and have to do a morning recovery.

They ain't gonna eat the antlers anyways....
And meat ain't a concern to me....

But I have never been in the situation to have to go recover a deer in the morning anyways.
I dont do alot of evening hunting .
Maybe two or 3 times a yr with slumlord.
I did sit on a buck he shot for about an hour 1 night.
Cause yotes are a issue around his place.
While he was going to get the pathfinder and Baby huey to help get it out of the woods.
I had gutted it out in the fading light, cause homie ain't cool on working with a blade in the dark with a flashlight only.
Little mistake with a razor sharp 110 =sliced up fingers or hand in deer blood and guts ain't a good thing.


I could see out west in places and in alaska how this would be a real concern with higher up the food chain predators.

I really dont think leaving human scent is gonna deter a hungry grizzly or wolves at all.

Look at how many times you hear stories of Grizzlies raiding a kill while hunters are physically around it.
And the danger of that.
Makes sense to have one guy pulling security and the other working on the kill in big bad attitude bear country.
Someone going out hunting alone in grizzly country is tempting fate when they got a game animal down IMO.
Look at all the dumbazz hikers across the planet that get attacked by predators, smelling like a human sure as heck didnt scare off a predator when that schit goes down.

🥴🥴🥴

Not really related to the OP's query but....I once wounded a large Mule deer and was trying to find where he went, after about an hour I realized there was a Coyote ahead of me doing the same thing. The buck wouldn't stop and lay down because of the Coyote chasing it, buck never recovered.

You saying he can join our club, Bob?

Jag...
Is that pic from like 18 hundred and 06
???

👍😄😄😄🙂🙋‍♂️

JK man...👍

Only seen a deer left overnight once in this area. This is what we found the next morning;

Makes the pack out a cinch.

I've done the same more than once, 3 and four miles from the trailhead, without the t-shirt and it was untouched for 2-3 days. A sample of one with a negative result doesn't really prove anything.

I left out the bown bear on my caribou cow, which I've related several times already.

When I came back the next morning, the bear that had jumped me on my way back to the truck the night before was at the kill site.

It had eaten the liver, bit into the heart, ate some of the brisket meat, crapped all around the carcass, and was laying on the gut pile, which had rolled about 50 yards down the steep slope.

My take-away from that is that they would rather feast on internal organs than muscle meat at first, hence my desire to get meat as far away from the guts as is feasible if meat has to be left.

And that pulley system I used on several caribou? I packed it in and left it there after the first use, for subsequent trips. Twice more used over the next 10-12 years. It's still there, but I haven't been in almost 20 years. Probably inoperable by now, but it was cheap enough, and worth it. Actually, I'd planned to get a lot more use out of it, and the small log shelter I built earlier that summer, off trail and well hidden, so I didn't have to pack an 8 lb tent up there and back.

The next year, F&G changed the permit application regs from allowing just one application per species, to 3 applications, one animal. ($$$$$) My wife and I went from getting at least one caribou permit almost every year, to one every 3 or 4 years, as a whole bunch of clueless idiots then shotgunned applications out, without knowing anything about the rigors of this particular hunt. 250 permits issued annually - the kill was never more than 10, often only 1-3. Only once did I not fill a permit- the year both my wife and I drew. I never went back to fill mine, as our freezer was full of sheep, caribou, moose already. No point....

Bummer.

Excellent real life record of a bear moving in on a hunter kill. Two items jumped out at me, highlighted in the selected quote below.


First, this critter seemed to think that putting his strong scent (crap) around his claim had some value, perhaps in deterring other meat eaters, though that is speculation. This grizzly agreed with our practice of putting our scent around our cache, (and with an animal left till we could come get it with horses, we would crap near it, daily if practical).

Second, from my experience I would agree that grizzlies, wolverines and black bears tend to eat internal organs first. So making internals easy to get while making the meat harder to get is a practical combination if leaving meat in the field.

Or it could have just been the blueberryshitts.

Enough guys have lost animals to predators overnight to say this isn't true. Luckily, I'm not one of them.

Why did the bear poop in the woods?

LOL! Organs have more fat, probably why they like them better than meat.

I use the gutless method, and once I have all the meat off the carcass I slit the belly and let the guts slide out to give any scavengers an option rather than the meat hanging in the tree.

It worked once with a black bear, left the meat alone.

if the hogs find it there wont be hardly even hair or bones left