May have to do some hard yankin' with the 4Runner. Going off-roading end of March. Weighs about 5500#'s. I have a receiver hitch-skid that doubles as a recovery point. Should I use a hitch pin or can I safely use a grade 8 bolt? I like the bolt so the skid plate is less likely to be stolen.
You're gonna get into a lot of metallurgical advice so I'll throw mine in. Save the cost of a grade 8, the cheaper grade 5 will serve you better. There are reasons you don't want to use grade 8's as some times they act like a shear pin. Grade 5's are more malleable. YMMV>
This has been discussed here before but I don’t think I could find the thread.
It seems most feel that a grade 8 bolt is designed for its strength to be in tension and not in shear like a hitch pin is made for. The thoughts were a G8 would shear and the hitch pin being softer, for lack of a better term, would bend slightly therefore absorbing the shock better.
There is a YouTube channel called Matt’s Off-road Recovery where this guy jerks vehicles out with recovery ropes every day in a commercial recovery operation and he appears to use hitch pins.
as a farmer that's yanked heavy loads with big tractors since he was tall enough to push the clutch in. Stay away from bolts is exactly right. use a hitch pin that's what it's made for. don't ask me why or how because of how they're made that's just the way it is
gunchamp; Top of the morning from the snow bound south Okanagan, I hope you're having a better start to March than we are and you're well.
You are, in my experience sir, absolutely correct.
My experience has been farming, 40 plus years of 4x4ing in 4 western provinces and construction, all of which gave us lots and lots of opportunity to test out theories..... Too many actually.
Personally I carry extra hitch pins c/w retainer in the door pocket, then another spare on the front QD winch receiver along with the one holding the back extraction shackle in the rear receiver - putting money where mouth is as a belt and suspenders sort of geezer.
Interesting question. As a structural engineer I figured it's something I should know, but didn't. Looked it up. Looks like most hitch pins are in the grade 5 spectrum. Grade 5 is a SAE grade (Society of Automotive Engineers) that is about 90,000-120,000psi in terms of strength. There is an equivalent ASTM grade 325 that is used in construction, e.g. buildings, bridges, etc. Same strength just different grading agency.
Grade 8 (SAE) or ASTM 354/490 is about 150,000psi. A decent increase.
A cheap lag bolt, or hardware store bolt (from China) is good for about 30,000-45,000psi to give you some reference.
Two caveats, bolt strength can vary slightly based on bolt diameter due to heat treating processes. Second, threads reduce a bolt's strength, so a 5/8" pin without threads, is stronger (more cross sectional area) than a 5/8" threaded bolt and good design practice requires no threads in the shear plane - i.e. where the bolt touches the steel of the hitch receiver.
Im using a 1/2” grade 8 to hold the receiver onto the back of my Farm Only nissan pathfinder.
I’m skidding logs, dragging trees and snatching /jerking stumps with it. Been in there about 15 years 💀
As for other moron references, our Druncle Larry dropped a grade 8 - 7/16” into the kubota 6ft bush hog sheer slot because he is a knucklehead. It just about detonated the gear box when he a guy anchor. lol
5/8 is a big piece of meat in grade 8. I’d do it. But I got balls and dgaf
Mountain10mm; Top of the morning to you sir, I trust the first day of March in your section of Colorado is behaving and you're well.
Thanks for giving us the math and engineering answer, I appreciate it. One of the cool things about the 'Fire is the breadth of experience and knowledge we've got here.
As I've admitted numerous times I'm not certified in anything - well that's been kept current for sure - and as mentioned my answer was coming from a background of repeated machinery abuse.
It's interesting when you mentioned the threads as I can't recall ever seeing a bolt shear off anywhere other than in the threads. Makes sense though I suppose?
My layman's take on the shear pins is that they're likely made of soft and tough enough material to bend and not shear in most cases.
I know we've bent a few pins and bolts playing silly games and hoping not to win silly prizes, but there's been some instances where bolts sheared too, though for the life of me I can't recall exactly what happened to cause it or the size of the bolts. Sorry that detail is gone.
Thanks again though, its interesting to see the numbers.
Hitch pin, I probably have at least 4 of various sizes rolling around in the pickup right now. If you’re worried about someone swiping it get one that locks.
If you do decide on a bolt, grade 2, 5 or 8 will be fine. Just be sure it's long enough so that you're not pulling off the side of the threads. Threads are stress risers & in this application they would be the shear point..
I ordered up the stuff to make two of these setups.
Pin, shackle and shackle block all made in the USA.
The block says 13k, the pin is 20k+. Is that a 1/2" shackle? If so, it's probably near 20k breaking strength. So, the block is the weak link. If that isn't enough, you likely need a heavier hitch. It's certainly more than the OP's 4Runner can handle.
Either bolt is plenty strong. I found long ago, a grade 8 bolt with a lock but is very cheap anti theft device. In Kodiak the key lock quotes working after a year. You can always house the nut off.
They make winches for removal of stuck vehicles. I would worry more about the recovery strap or what ever you use, than the hitch pin. Hard sudden yanking as you put it, calls for removal straps and or rope. The pin will be fine.
As someone who has used and tried to break about every setup out there, I say it won't matter. If it's the proper sized bolt, you'll break everything else before it goes. We have used Grade 8 Bolts and a lock washer on all our permanent applications around the farm forever. We've broken about everything possible at one point or another. NEVER has the bolt broken or even shown signs of being close.
My main concern is the hitch skid flying out of the receiver during a jerk and snatch recovery, and then hitting a vehicle or a person. That thing weighs about 8 lbs. and would really put the hurt on anything it hits. I'm gonna go with a Grade 8 bolt.
Your toyota doesn't have the weight or power to break the pin. Actually very few vehicles, if any have the power to break the pin. It would have to shear both sides at the same time to go flying out. Your over thinking this considerably!
That Toyota has more than enough power to easily wreck just about any part of the hitch assembly. Getting a 50' running start and something is going to break, guaranteed. In a more static situation, I agree, the Toyota is the weak link.
Matt's Off Road recovery discusses this on several of his videos- especially after the guy was killed about a year ago when somebody used their drop hitch to try to pull somebody out of a mud hole... it broke, flew through the guy's windshield and killed him on the spot . There are several videos now on this subject and it might be wise to check them out if you intend to do this. Matt also sells some kinetic pulling straps that help with pulling people out of bad situations when brute pulling power won't do it...
There is another site on line and I can't remember their name that refutes some of Matt's advice in recovery by showing extreme destructive testing on towing straps, shackles, and other equipment. I can't seem to find the video at the moment...
I've done the recovery thing many times over the years when buds were stuck while we were four wheeling or got into bad situations one way or another when out in the pucky brush and never gave it much thought- but something to think about...
Also, everyone is posting the listed strength of given bolts and pins but that is in stress- not in shear. Shear numbers are a whole different story
I will just leave this here You can make your own decisions
A Grade 8 bolt is very hard and under a shock can slap. A Grade 5 bolt it kinda hard but has more ductility and will bend. It can take Shocks and still be structurally sound.
I have been a Structural Steel Welding and Bolting inspector for 34 years and in Commyfornia with all of the Earth Quake crap they frown very heavily of the use of a Grade 8 bolt for Structural use. I have seen Engineers spec out Grade 8 bolts but not very often. They do not like brittle bots for Structural use due to the Shock values.
Just my opinion but pulling a trailer with the bumps and humps in the road. That may create Shock on the Hitch pins
A hitch pin is made to handle over 20,000 lb. You'll tear your hitch off before it breaks. If you're worried about theft, get a locking pin.
Re: locking pins... I had one once... A good one... And within a year it froze up and the lock was as worthless as a screen door on a submarine.. It took a saws-all with a special blade to get rid of that pos... I don't need a lock now - just remove the hitch and put it in the storage compartment in the truck..
Overall, and coming from someone who's farmed, helped uncles who farmed, (and now work for a farmer with serious equipment) and who has pulled everything from soup to nuts, I'm with those above; get a hitch pin and call it good.. JMVHO...
I have been a Structural Steel Welding and Bolting inspector for 34 years and in Commyfornia with all of the Earth Quake crap they frown very heavily of the use of a Grade 8 bolt for Structural use. I have seen Engineers spec out Grade 8 bolts but not very often. They do not like brittle bots for Structural use due to the Shock values.
Just my opinion but pulling a trailer with the bumps and humps in the road. That may create Shock on the Hitch pins
Structural bolts are almost exclusively used in shear. The shear strength of a grade 8 is higher than grade 5, and provides a higher shear strength value for the connection. Period. That being said, the bolt may not be the weak link - so using a stronger bolt might not gain any overall connection strength. There is no "bending" of a bolt in structural shear connection. Failure modes in steel are almost all catastrophic. The bolt shears, or the steel tears out in chunks (block shear). Seismic design requires the steel members not the connections, to yield and absorb the seismic energy. When a contractor complains about grade 8 bolts, it's because of the expense and availability, or lack there of.
Here’s the simple engineering perspective. Unless you are using a real long bolt and washers so you are only loading the shank, a bolt used in that application is loading across the threads. The threads themselves act as stress risers and will fail at a much lower load than otherwise determined by its strength and cross-sectional area.
gunchamp; Top of the morning from the snow bound south Okanagan, I hope you're having a better start to March than we are and you're well.
You are, in my experience sir, absolutely correct.
My experience has been farming, 40 plus years of 4x4ing in 4 western provinces and construction, all of which gave us lots and lots of opportunity to test out theories..... Too many actually.
Personally I carry extra hitch pins c/w retainer in the door pocket, then another spare on the front QD winch receiver along with the one holding the back extraction shackle in the rear receiver - putting money where mouth is as a belt and suspenders sort of geezer.
All the best.
Dwayne
Good afternoon kind sir. You are correct in using the proper tool for the job. Can a bolt work? Sure, it can also fail in dramatic fashion. Bolts are not designed around side shearing force. Hitch pins are. Im a service manager in a large RV dealership and have worked in this industry for over 25 years, most of which was spent as a technician. I've seen anything you can possibly imagine. Ive seen bolts fail. It can happen I'm sure, but to this day ive never seen a hitch pin shear off.
I have been a Structural Steel Welding and Bolting inspector for 34 years and in Commyfornia with all of the Earth Quake crap they frown very heavily of the use of a Grade 8 bolt for Structural use. I have seen Engineers spec out Grade 8 bolts but not very often. They do not like brittle bots for Structural use due to the Shock values.
Just my opinion but pulling a trailer with the bumps and humps in the road. That may create Shock on the Hitch pins
Structural bolts are almost exclusively used in shear. The shear strength of a grade 8 is higher than grade 5, and provides a higher shear strength value for the connection. Period. That being said, the bolt may not be the weak link - so using a stronger bolt might not gain any overall connection strength. There is no "bending" of a bolt in structural shear connection. Failure modes in steel are almost all catastrophic. The bolt shears, or the steel tears out in chunks (block shear). Seismic design requires the steel members not the connections, to yield and absorb the seismic energy. When a contractor complains about grade 8 bolts, it's because of the expense and availability, or lack there of.
Structural bolts like A325 and A490 are used as a clamp in most cases anymore Yes they have shear values but it is the Tension (Clamping Forces) that Engineers Calculate over the shear values That is why they Tension bolts in buildings instead of just having wrench tight bolts Think of a C Clamp holding something together. An Structural Bolt just does it from the inside instead of the out side.
i have used A325 bolts as a Hitch pin in a pinch when I could not find a hitch pin in the moment.
I have been a Structural Steel Welding and Bolting inspector for 34 years and in Commyfornia with all of the Earth Quake crap they frown very heavily of the use of a Grade 8 bolt for Structural use. I have seen Engineers spec out Grade 8 bolts but not very often. They do not like brittle bots for Structural use due to the Shock values.
Just my opinion but pulling a trailer with the bumps and humps in the road. That may create Shock on the Hitch pins
Structural bolts are almost exclusively used in shear. The shear strength of a grade 8 is higher than grade 5, and provides a higher shear strength value for the connection. Period. That being said, the bolt may not be the weak link - so using a stronger bolt might not gain any overall connection strength. There is no "bending" of a bolt in structural shear connection. Failure modes in steel are almost all catastrophic. The bolt shears, or the steel tears out in chunks (block shear). Seismic design requires the steel members not the connections, to yield and absorb the seismic energy. When a contractor complains about grade 8 bolts, it's because of the expense and availability, or lack there of.
Structural bolts like A325 and A490 are used as a clamp in most cases anymore Yes they have shear values but it is the Tension (Clamping Forces) that Engineers Calculate over the shear values That is why they Tension bolts in buildings instead of just having wrench tight bolts Think of a C Clamp holding something together. An Structural Bolt just does it from the inside instead of the out side.
i have used A325 bolts as a Hitch pin in a pinch when I could not find a hitch pin in the moment.
You are correct. That's called a slip critical connection. And the strength value of the connection is directly proportional to the "tightness" of the bolt. The tightness is about 70% of the bolts tensile strength with is based on the same psi strength value of the metal as the shear strength (oversimplification but good enough). Higher strength bolt = more tightness = stronger connection.
gunchamp; Good afternoon to you sir, thanks for the reply.
My goodness I'll just imagine you've "seen some things" then in the RV service business.
For a couple years I managed a fair sized indoor and outdoor storage facility where we stored boats, RV's, classic and exotic autos.
Here in BC up until a couple years ago one could waddle into an auto dealership, buy a new pickup and get a 5th wheel hitch installed and then buy the biggest RV on the market and legally terrorize the highways with a regular Class V driver's license. A couple years back the powers that be decided that if the trailer exceeded 4600kg then the driver needed an upgraded license which includes some training.
Yes indeed though, the "average" person out west here who retires having never driven anything bigger than a Camry, then deciding to become a snowbird... well sir when you say "anything you can possibly imagine"... I can imagine a wee bit!!!
There were a couple local RV dealers who I had a really good working relationship with their service departments since more than a handful needed their services.
Thanks for the information, the chuckle and the memories.
All the best.
Dwayne
Edit to add; After the storage business shut down, I worked a year for a Big 3 auto dealer and was somewhat perplexed how often they'd sell a customer a pickup that was not going to be able to pull what they wanted to.
For that matter, some of the RV dealerships sold trailers to people that were too big for their little SUV to pull safely on our mountain roads, but we saw far too much of that as well.
I have been a Structural Steel Welding and Bolting inspector for 34 years and in Commyfornia with all of the Earth Quake crap they frown very heavily of the use of a Grade 8 bolt for Structural use. I have seen Engineers spec out Grade 8 bolts but not very often. They do not like brittle bots for Structural use due to the Shock values.
Just my opinion but pulling a trailer with the bumps and humps in the road. That may create Shock on the Hitch pins
Structural bolts are almost exclusively used in shear. The shear strength of a grade 8 is higher than grade 5, and provides a higher shear strength value for the connection. Period. That being said, the bolt may not be the weak link - so using a stronger bolt might not gain any overall connection strength. There is no "bending" of a bolt in structural shear connection. Failure modes in steel are almost all catastrophic. The bolt shears, or the steel tears out in chunks (block shear). Seismic design requires the steel members not the connections, to yield and absorb the seismic energy. When a contractor complains about grade 8 bolts, it's because of the expense and availability, or lack there of.
Structural bolts like A325 and A490 are used as a clamp in most cases anymore Yes they have shear values but it is the Tension (Clamping Forces) that Engineers Calculate over the shear values That is why they Tension bolts in buildings instead of just having wrench tight bolts Think of a C Clamp holding something together. An Structural Bolt just does it from the inside instead of the out side.
i have used A325 bolts as a Hitch pin in a pinch when I could not find a hitch pin in the moment.
You are correct. That's called a slip critical connection. And the strength value of the connection is directly proportional to the "tightness" of the bolt. The tightness is about 70% of the bolts tensile strength with is based on the same psi strength value of the metal as the shear strength (oversimplification but good enough). Higher strength bolt = more tightness = stronger connection.
Yes But the original Poster was asking about hitch pins.
I was trying to explain about Brittle verses Malleable steels for Hitch pins.
Not Tension type Connections.
Shear shock a grade 8 bolt then Shear shock a grade 5 bolt. You may be surprised on the result. I have witnessed both.
Edit to add; After the storage business shut down, I worked a year for a Big 3 auto dealer and was somewhat perplexed how often they'd sell a customer a pickup that was not going to be able to pull what they wanted to.
For that matter, some of the RV dealerships sold trailers to people that were too big for their little SUV to pull safely on our mountain roads, but we saw far too much of that as well.
Dwayne, I feel your pain. I don't think concern about undersized tow vehicles is limited to BC. The US is cursed with the same people who think their F150 and 4Runner is appropriate for towing a 30' toy-hauler into the mountains. I know this personally because I routinely get stuck behind them, I'm usually car number 82 or more in that line of backed-up vehicles. It's a rare sighting to see any tow vehicle outside of agriculture and construction that is properly sized by the owner for the toys they are pulling.
Edit to add; After the storage business shut down, I worked a year for a Big 3 auto dealer and was somewhat perplexed how often they'd sell a customer a pickup that was not going to be able to pull what they wanted to.
For that matter, some of the RV dealerships sold trailers to people that were too big for their little SUV to pull safely on our mountain roads, but we saw far too much of that as well.
Dwayne, I feel your pain. I don't think concern about undersized tow vehicles is limited to BC. The US is cursed with the same people who think their F150 and 4Runner is appropriate for towing a 30' toy-hauler into the mountains. I know this personally because I routinely get stuck behind them, I'm usually car number 82 or more in that line of backed-up vehicles. It's a rare sighting to see any tow vehicle outside of agriculture and construction that is properly sized by the owner for the toys they are pulling.
The same as selling Hitch's designed to Fail. The Aluminum Hitch's can get Cyclic fatigue and crack. Make no sense to me to put people on the road at risk higher than already with people that do not pay attention while driving. Add a trailer to the equation and faulty products and the stage is set.
Pulled a loaded semi out with the excavator twice on Friday.
Pulled out the 3/4 ton Dodge and the skid steer yesterday. The half ton and the skid steer twice this morning.
I also have no advice. A 1” rope and a 3/8” logging chain both worked just fine. The front receiver for the semi, fwiw, has a standard pin. At 80K gross everything held as I moved the front end around and got her out of the snow bank.
I reckon a 4 runner would hold, as well. But, I guess those Toyotas are extra tough…..
gunchamp; Good afternoon to you sir, thanks for the reply.
My goodness I'll just imagine you've "seen some things" then in the RV service business.
For a couple years I managed a fair sized indoor and outdoor storage facility where we stored boats, RV's, classic and exotic autos.
Here in BC up until a couple years ago one could waddle into an auto dealership, buy a new pickup and get a 5th wheel hitch installed and then buy the biggest RV on the market and legally terrorize the highways with a regular Class V driver's license. A couple years back the powers that be decided that if the trailer exceeded 4600kg then the driver needed an upgraded license which includes some training.
Yes indeed though, the "average" person out west here who retires having never driven anything bigger than a Camry, then deciding to become a snowbird... well sir when you say "anything you can possibly imagine"... I can imagine a wee bit!!!
There were a couple local RV dealers who I had a really good working relationship with their service departments since more than a handful needed their services.
Thanks for the information, the chuckle and the memories.
All the best.
Dwayne
Edit to add; After the storage business shut down, I worked a year for a Big 3 auto dealer and was somewhat perplexed how often they'd sell a customer a pickup that was not going to be able to pull what they wanted to.
For that matter, some of the RV dealerships sold trailers to people that were too big for their little SUV to pull safely on our mountain roads, but we saw far too much of that as well.
We have a body shop and we are normally scheduled out 3 months+ due to mostly first timers haha. Not always their fault though. I had a couple come through with a fleetwood motorhome that blew a tire. We supposed to be a simple estimate, until they told me that they didnt have power inside. I got under the mh and found that when the tire blew, the tread beat a hole through the floor and grabbed the main wiring run for all the interior coach wiring. Ripped all the wiring out of the walls and ceiling and had it wrapped up around the axle. My tech loved me for bringing that one in to the shop lol
Rub the receiver in a slurry of road salt, sand, and water. Slide it in and let the chemical reaction take place. They can be quite miserable to remove.
That was tongue-in-cheek that anyone in the rustbelt will understand.
Rub the receiver in a slurry of road salt, sand, and water. Slide it in and let the chemical reaction take place. They can be quite miserable to remove.
That was tongue-in-cheek that anyone in the rustbelt will understand.
Yeah, seen that a few times. Nephew's hitch wouldn't budge with a good yank with the chain wrapped around a 16" box elder.
Broke a pin hooking the cylinder to the fold down stabilizer leg on a Prentice loader, the boss ran to the hardware and bought a couple grade 8 bolts. Getting the right pins was a couple hour deal.
Broke them quick. At lunch he got their last grade 8, and a couple 5s. The 8 broke, a 5 stayed in the rest of the week.
An earlier poster hit the nail on the head. The 8s just snapped, too hard in shear. The 5 deformed, it had to be hammered out, but it didn't snap.
PS. I was glad to get a real pin. Loading on the downhill side, reaching out for a heavy log....your Sitting on Top of The Loader Ass will pull seat stuffings when the lower stabilizer let's go. A truck suspension isn't very strong under those conditions.
You could go with a grade 12.9 5/8" SHCS. (socket head cap screw) such as is used in machine shop assemblies.
My gut feeling is, you'll spin the tires bald on a 4Runner before you shear a 5/8" grade 12.9 SHCS.
A 4 runner ain’t snapping no 5/8 grade 8 bolt.
We move campers with forklifts. We have a 1", thick steel plated bolted to the forks with 4 large grade 8 bolts. They have sheared in the past when a side load was forcefully applied. I promise you a 4 runner can break them in the correct situation
I ordered up the stuff to make two of these setups.
Pin, shackle and shackle block all made in the USA.
The block says 13k, the pin is 20k+. Is that a 1/2" shackle? If so, it's probably near 20k breaking strength. So, the block is the weak link. If that isn't enough, you likely need a heavier hitch. It's certainly more than the OP's 4Runner can handle.
It's a 3/4" shackle.
Our feed pickups weigh about 13,000lbs loaded so I tried to find the strongest setup. No mud yet so haven't tested them out.
I make my own Hitch Pins out of Cold Rolled Round rod. They do not break at least I have not had one break yet. I have bent several but not to bad to be able to tap them out of the receiver with a hammer. They rust up a bit when sitting in the Weather
I am to Cheep to pay the price for store bought Hitch Pins.
Cut the length you want them. Drill a hole in each end Spin a taper on one end and put a large Key Ring for pulling on the other end.
Amazing how many idiots there are. " Bolts are not designed around shearing forces" they absolutely are, in fact many bolts are designed ONLY in shearing forces (think clevis bolt) A grade 8 bolt is stronger, better and safer than any hitch pin. Period. They are less convenient. You want the best bolt go to caterpillar and get over their grade 10s. Go to Fastenal and a Holo chrome grade 8. Their SHEAR strength is going to be higher then any hitch pin. All this said, the pin is not your weak link so use whatever you want.
Matt's Off Road recovery discusses this on several of his videos- especially after the guy was killed about a year ago when somebody used their drop hitch to try to pull somebody out of a mud hole... it broke, flew through the guy's windshield and killed him on the spot . There are several videos now on this subject and it might be wise to check them out if you intend to do this. Matt also sells some kinetic pulling straps that help with pulling people out of bad situations when brute pulling power won't do it...
There is another site on line and I can't remember their name that refutes some of Matt's advice in recovery by showing extreme destructive testing on towing straps, shackles, and other equipment. I can't seem to find the video at the moment...
I've done the recovery thing many times over the years when buds were stuck while we were four wheeling or got into bad situations one way or another when out in the pucky brush and never gave it much thought- but something to think about...
Also, everyone is posting the listed strength of given bolts and pins but that is in stress- not in shear. Shear numbers are a whole different story
Back when I was a youngin, shear was typically calculated at 50% tensile. But that applies for both hitch pins and bolts - so kind of a push. But using a hitch pin means that if it does shear, your victim's family would go after the hitch pin manufacturer, and hopefully not you. Especially since you've now put this out onto the interwebs.
And yes, I'd make dang sure I was using attachment points designed for recovery, especially in light of what happened to that poor dude in AZ. Sam posted what he uses, and its similar to what I use as well. So do as Sheister says, and do a little video watching.
I make my own Hitch Pins out of Cold Rolled Round rod. They do not break at least I have not had one break yet. I have bent several but not to bad to be able to tap them out of the receiver with a hammer. They rust up a bit when sitting in the Weather
I am to Cheep to pay the price for store bought Hitch Pins.
Cut the length you want them. Drill a hole in each end Spin a taper on one end and put a large Key Ring for pulling on the other end.
We sell equalizer pins for $8. Too cheap for that lol?
Fer chrissakes. You guys could overthink a paper clip. Get the equipment that was designed for the job. Thank me later when you don’t have to wire wheel the threads of your “#8” to get the damn nut off or worse, have to cut that sum bitch off.
You do know they got's pins that can be locked to thwart stinger theft?
In the current world of cordless tools (angle grinder?), NOTHING is totally safe from theft, no matter how well "locked"! Bolt "grade" or "tensile strength" be damned!
Broke a pin hooking the cylinder to the fold down stabilizer leg on a Prentice loader, the boss ran to the hardware and bought a couple grade 8 bolts. Getting the right pins was a couple hour deal.
Broke them quick. At lunch he got their last grade 8, and a couple 5s. The 8 broke, a 5 stayed in the rest of the week.
An earlier poster hit the nail on the head. The 8s just snapped, too hard in shear. The 5 deformed, it had to be hammered out, but it didn't snap.
PS. I was glad to get a real pin. Loading on the downhill side, reaching out for a heavy log....your Sitting on Top of The Loader Ass will pull seat stuffings when the lower stabilizer let's go. A truck suspension isn't very strong under those conditions.
Boy, this brings back memories.
We had one of these on a Diamond Rio when I first started working for my father. The first load I ever took out when I first got my truck license, I thought I was going to die. I pulled up on the job with a full load of flagstone and climbed up on the crane like Billy Badass and forgot to put the stabilizers down. Picked up the first pallet and swung it off and the truck proceeded to roll over. I let go of the controls because I was going to jump, and the boom swung out and kept it from rolling over. I let the boom down which put the truck back on all of it's wheels. I climbed down and had to clean my shorts out. If I didn't die from it, my old man would have killed me.
This is a good thread. Thanks for all of the info, it's educational. We had this same discussion on Monday and it's good to hear different opinions on this and it clarifies what we were talking about.
I have a handful of flatbeds with truck mounted forklifts. In case you're not familiar with how they're mounted, here a brief explanation. You pull up to the back of the truck and slide the forks into a pocket in the forklift kit. You lift up the machine to the ride height and suck it in so that the front tires are under the truck and over the tire pads. On each side of the machine there is a chain. It's heavy, maybe 1/2". At the end of each chain is a shackle. You then hook the chains to the forklift kit by putting a 3/4" hitch pin through the shackle. Then you relax the hydraulics on the machine and the tires sit down on the tire pads and the rest of the weight hangs on the chains. The machine only weighs 6000 lbs., but it's hanging on the back of the truck and they have a tendency to bounce a little when you hit bumps.
On Monday, one of my drivers rolls into the yard and he's dragging one of the chains. The shackles are held onto the chains by a 5/8" pin with no head and they're held in with a couple of roll pins. The roll pins didn't hold and he lost the 5/8" pin. My first thought was to put a grade 8 bolt through it, or a hitch pin. The discussion started and everyone had a different opinion. My driver didn't like the grade 8 idea and thought there was something stronger. So I went to Tractor Supply and looked at the hardware. They had grade 5 and grade 8. I wasn't sure which one was stronger so I looked at the hitch pins. They had the regular silver hitch pins for $4.00 and they had the fancy black ones with a handle for $9.00. I went with the $9.00 hitch pin. So far, so good. But I told him to keep an eye on it. The last thing I need is to lose a $70K forklift and kill somebody.
As far as the Toyota 4 Runner goes, anything will work.
We had a local mechanic who has been gone for many years now. He would overhaul engines and throw the old valves into a pile outside. You wouldn't believe how many of those old valves ended up in tractor hitches. I have no idea what kind of steel the 1940's 50's and 60's valves were made of but they never went to waste. I have never heard of one breaking but I did see several that were bent. My thought is they were along the lines of grade 5 steel maybe a bit better and maybe a bit worse if the valves were older steel.
It's been said that that whatever bolts you use make sure the shank is through the work and the threads are not holding the load. I find it hard to believe that whatever your Toyota is pulling will break even if it's cold rolled steel, but I agree it needs to be safe. I don't see grade 5 as a problem but it's not my hitch. If you want to spend the money for a grade 8 bolt, it's your hitch and it's your money. The diameter and the design is probably more important.
This is a good thread. Thanks for all of the info, it's educational. We had this same discussion on Monday and it's good to hear different opinions on this and it clarifies what we were talking about.
I have a handful of flatbeds with truck mounted forklifts. In case you're not familiar with how they're mounted, here a brief explanation. You pull up to the back of the truck and slide the forks into a pocket in the forklift kit. You lift up the machine to the ride height and suck it in so that the front tires are under the truck and over the tire pads. On each side of the machine there is a chain. It's heavy, maybe 1/2". At the end of each chain is a shackle. You then hook the chains to the forklift kit by putting a 3/4" hitch pin through the shackle. Then you relax the hydraulics on the machine and the tires sit down on the tire pads and the rest of the weight hangs on the chains. The machine only weighs 6000 lbs., but it's hanging on the back of the truck and they have a tendency to bounce a little when you hit bumps.
On Monday, one of my drivers rolls into the yard and he's dragging one of the chains. The shackles are held onto the chains by a 5/8" pin with no head and they're held in with a couple of roll pins. The roll pins didn't hold and he lost the 5/8" pin. My first thought was to put a grade 8 bolt through it, or a hitch pin. The discussion started and everyone had a different opinion. My driver didn't like the grade 8 idea and thought there was something stronger. So I went to Tractor Supply and looked at the hardware. They had grade 5 and grade 8. I wasn't sure which one was stronger so I looked at the hitch pins. They had the regular silver hitch pins for $4.00 and they had the fancy black ones with a handle for $9.00. I went with the $9.00 hitch pin. So far, so good. But I told him to keep an eye on it. The last thing I need is to lose a $70K forklift and kill somebody.
As far as the Toyota 4 Runner goes, anything will work.
I'm wondering why they go with a 5/8" pin on that, and not a 1 inch pin?
Seems like insurance to me. Obviously, the 5/8 can and will break. I'm guessing the pin sheared, is why they lost it.
Bolts today are typically Chinese junk. We have a huge list of counterfeit bolts that we cannot use. Not all are the same.
With that said, anyone who can shear a 5/8" bolt in a mild steel tube receiver should get some national recognition.
The reference to the man killed by the flying receiver failed to mention it was a drop hitch that broke at the weld....not the pin.
To put a receiver in perfect shear would require dead even tongue height. Most hitches are some level of drop and that acts much like the sliding side of a pony or bessey clamp.....you're not likely to break even a diamond hard or butter soft one.
This is a good thread. Thanks for all of the info, it's educational. We had this same discussion on Monday and it's good to hear different opinions on this and it clarifies what we were talking about.
I have a handful of flatbeds with truck mounted forklifts. In case you're not familiar with how they're mounted, here a brief explanation. You pull up to the back of the truck and slide the forks into a pocket in the forklift kit. You lift up the machine to the ride height and suck it in so that the front tires are under the truck and over the tire pads. On each side of the machine there is a chain. It's heavy, maybe 1/2". At the end of each chain is a shackle. You then hook the chains to the forklift kit by putting a 3/4" hitch pin through the shackle. Then you relax the hydraulics on the machine and the tires sit down on the tire pads and the rest of the weight hangs on the chains. The machine only weighs 6000 lbs., but it's hanging on the back of the truck and they have a tendency to bounce a little when you hit bumps.
On Monday, one of my drivers rolls into the yard and he's dragging one of the chains. The shackles are held onto the chains by a 5/8" pin with no head and they're held in with a couple of roll pins. The roll pins didn't hold and he lost the 5/8" pin. My first thought was to put a grade 8 bolt through it, or a hitch pin. The discussion started and everyone had a different opinion. My driver didn't like the grade 8 idea and thought there was something stronger. So I went to Tractor Supply and looked at the hardware. They had grade 5 and grade 8. I wasn't sure which one was stronger so I looked at the hitch pins. They had the regular silver hitch pins for $4.00 and they had the fancy black ones with a handle for $9.00. I went with the $9.00 hitch pin. So far, so good. But I told him to keep an eye on it. The last thing I need is to lose a $70K forklift and kill somebody.
As far as the Toyota 4 Runner goes, anything will work.
I'm wondering why they go with a 5/8" pin on that, and not a 1 inch pin?
Seems like insurance to me. Obviously, the 5/8 can and will break. I'm guessing the pin sheared, is why they lost it.
Yeah, not sure. He just rolled back in the yard, so I looked at it again. The pin that goes through the shackle is actually 1 1/8". The chain is 1/2". But the pin in the shackle is 5/8". The forklift is a Moffett made by Hiab. Not sure about the pin, you could be right about it shearing off, but the hole in the shackle wasn't screwed up or anything. If it just fell out, not sure how that could happen with all of that weight on it unless it came out when it bounced or something.
I make my own Hitch Pins out of Cold Rolled Round rod. They do not break at least I have not had one break yet. I have bent several but not to bad to be able to tap them out of the receiver with a hammer. They rust up a bit when sitting in the Weather
I am to Cheep to pay the price for store bought Hitch Pins.
Cut the length you want them. Drill a hole in each end Spin a taper on one end and put a large Key Ring for pulling on the other end.
We sell equalizer pins for $8. Too cheap for that lol?
It costs me a couple bucks to make my own pins (Large ones). And i get to work in the Garage on my own projects I make pins from 1/4"' all the way up to 1" so far for various uses (Custom Pins)
What does welding the handle on that pin do to the temper and strength?
Hopefully the pin is re-heat treated after the weld.
kwg
The handle is held on by a roll pin that goes through the 5/8" pin. The handle actually makes it easier to handle the chain. It seems to do the trick as long as the hitch pin holds up. We'll see, it's only been on there for 3 days.
I can see what the handle is for but welding messes with the temper. If not properly heat treated, it could greatly weaken the pin. I'm not enough of a welder to know how to do it right.
Bolts today are typically Chinese junk. We have a huge list of counterfeit bolts that we cannot use. Not all are the same.
With that said, anyone who can shear a 5/8" bolt in a mild steel tube receiver should get some national recognition.
The reference to the man killed by the flying receiver failed to mention it was a drop hitch that broke at the weld....not the pin.
To put a receiver in perfect shear would require dead even tongue height. Most hitches are some level of drop and that acts much like the sliding side of a pony or bessey clamp.....you're not likely to break even a diamond hard or butter soft one.
Actually, if you see the pics the hitch didn't break at the weld- the drop tube broke in the middle of the tube - complete metal failure. The point is you need to know how to calculate the actual pulling stress- Matt did a quick calculation that the mud suction the Ram was stuck in was causing the 7000 lb truck to create approximately a 13000 lb pulling load. Without proper equipment this is beyond most equipment being discussed here. Whether a proper hitch pin would have handled this I couldn't guess, but it seems they use hitch pins to hold the proper stinger for connecting their pulling straps and kinetic ropes....
Here is one video among many that explains some of this...
Bolts today are typically Chinese junk. We have a huge list of counterfeit bolts that we cannot use. Not all are the same.
With that said, anyone who can shear a 5/8" bolt in a mild steel tube receiver should get some national recognition.
The reference to the man killed by the flying receiver failed to mention it was a drop hitch that broke at the weld....not the pin.
To put a receiver in perfect shear would require dead even tongue height. Most hitches are some level of drop and that acts much like the sliding side of a pony or bessey clamp.....you're not likely to break even a diamond hard or butter soft one.
Actually, if you see the pics the hitch didn't break at the weld- the drop tube broke in the middle of the tube - complete metal failure. The point is you need to know how to calculate the actual pulling stress- Matt did a quick calculation that the mud suction the Ram was stuck in was causing the 7000 lb truck to create approximately a 13000 lb pulling load. Without proper equipment this is beyond most equipment being discussed here. Whether a proper hitch pin would have handled this I couldn't guess, but it seems they use hitch pins to hold the proper stinger for connecting their pulling straps and kinetic ropes....
The article just says "a long drop hitch". I’ve seen some dickwads around here with 18"+ drop on their 1/4" x 2" sq tubing hitches on lifted trucks. They have no clue.
Hitch pins are designed to take the shock loads that are dealt out when towing. Most are rated north of 20k lbs, some a good bit more. Once again, use the proper tool for the job.
Back in the early 70's, I was standing in the bathroom shaving when I heard a not thunder rumbling. I opened the back door and there was an upside down flatbed trailer sitting on top of an upside down back hoe. A 1/2 ton Ford pick up, right side up with the cab looking like the Jolly Green Giant had hammered it! At the wreck, nobody was hurt other than some dirty underwear.
When I walked by the trailer, the ball was still in the grips of the Bulldog hitch. The bolt for the ball had been sheared off!
I can't believe this went as many posts as it has. I'll say again, if you are wheeling and relying on yanking your vehicles around with straps ,ropes and cables. Get a winch, and save yourselves lots of headaches, vehicle damage and possible injury. It's not rocket science! Winches are good investments, and if setup properly can be moved from front to back, and moved from vehicle to vehicle! My opinion YMMV.
Field testing a recovery loop here. Receiver failure before pin failure.
Bruce
This is a testament on Mig Welding
99% of Manufacturers choose MIG welding over any other process because it dues not take the skill level as other processes and the clean up is almost nonexistent so it speeds up production time.
MIG is a more Brittle weld than others.
I will get a lot of back lash for my comment but I have been involved with welding for 49 Years and have been an Welding Inspector for 34 years in 2 days. And have tested welds my self. I know what is Brittle and what is Ductile.
Broke a pin hooking the cylinder to the fold down stabilizer leg on a Prentice loader, the boss ran to the hardware and bought a couple grade 8 bolts. Getting the right pins was a couple hour deal.
Broke them quick. At lunch he got their last grade 8, and a couple 5s. The 8 broke, a 5 stayed in the rest of the week.
An earlier poster hit the nail on the head. The 8s just snapped, too hard in shear. The 5 deformed, it had to be hammered out, but it didn't snap.
PS. I was glad to get a real pin. Loading on the downhill side, reaching out for a heavy log....your Sitting on Top of The Loader Ass will pull seat stuffings when the lower stabilizer let's go. A truck suspension isn't very strong under those conditions.
Boy, this brings back memories.
We had one of these on a Diamond Rio when I first started working for my father. The first load I ever took out when I first got my truck license, I thought I was going to die. I pulled up on the job with a full load of flagstone and climbed up on the crane like Billy Badass and forgot to put the stabilizers down. Picked up the first pallet and swung it off and the truck proceeded to roll over. I let go of the controls because I was going to jump, and the boom swung out and kept it from rolling over. I let the boom down which put the truck back on all of it's wheels. I climbed down and had to clean my shorts out. If I didn't die from it, my old man would have killed me.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You ought to run one on a mountainside! First time I did, everything I swung the boom uphill these seat fell down as it pivoted. That high up, it feels like you are falling. I'd let go of the controls, pull me feet from the swing pedals, and brace myself. Of course the loader quit moving and the log started driving, the gyrations were impressive but only enhanced the WTF! Factor!
Very best job I ever had was logging, It's in my blood, didn't pay for Chitt, no future, had to chase money.
Broke a pin hooking the cylinder to the fold down stabilizer leg on a Prentice loader, the boss ran to the hardware and bought a couple grade 8 bolts. Getting the right pins was a couple hour deal.
Broke them quick. At lunch he got their last grade 8, and a couple 5s. The 8 broke, a 5 stayed in the rest of the week.
An earlier poster hit the nail on the head. The 8s just snapped, too hard in shear. The 5 deformed, it had to be hammered out, but it didn't snap.
PS. I was glad to get a real pin. Loading on the downhill side, reaching out for a heavy log....your Sitting on Top of The Loader Ass will pull seat stuffings when the lower stabilizer let's go. A truck suspension isn't very strong under those conditions.
Boy, this brings back memories.
We had one of these on a Diamond Rio when I first started working for my father. The first load I ever took out when I first got my truck license, I thought I was going to die. I pulled up on the job with a full load of flagstone and climbed up on the crane like Billy Badass and forgot to put the stabilizers down. Picked up the first pallet and swung it off and the truck proceeded to roll over. I let go of the controls because I was going to jump, and the boom swung out and kept it from rolling over. I let the boom down which put the truck back on all of it's wheels. I climbed down and had to clean my shorts out. If I didn't die from it, my old man would have killed me.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You ought to run one on a mountainside! First time I did, everything I swung the boom uphill these seat fell down as it pivoted. That high up, it feels like you are falling. I'd let go of the controls, pull me feet from the swing pedals, and brace myself. Of course the loader quit moving and the log started driving, the gyrations were impressive but only enhanced the WTF! Factor!
Very best job I ever had was logging, It's in my blood, didn't pay for Chitt, no future, had to chase money.
Yeah, they were pretty easy to operate. That old Prentice that was on the Diamond Rio, in addition to pallet forks, had a grapple attachment. We used to go up to the mountain and dig fieldstone and boulders with it, so I know where you're coming from. That was back in the early 80's. About 20 years ago I bought a old used Mack Superliner that had a Prentice Drywall crane on it. Pretty much the same gig, but that one had a telescoping stick and power forks. The biggest problem with them was that a lot of times when you were unloading, you'd be sitting up in the tree limbs. Knuckle booms are a bit better with our type of applications.
I'd love, love, to have a nice Superliner! Don't have anything to do with one, no where covered to park it.
Rarely buy a ticket, but if I got PowerBall money I would have some old Mack's. Didn't love them when I drove them, and just like cars new ones are much better in almost every way.
But they are just cool.
Anything with 2 cycle Detroit? No thank you! Can only take so much abuse!
I can't believe this went as many posts as it has. I'll say again, if you are wheeling and relying on yanking your vehicles around with straps ,ropes and cables. Get a winch, and save yourselves lots of headaches, vehicle damage and possible injury. It's not rocket science! Winches are good investments, and if setup properly can be moved from front to back, and moved from vehicle to vehicle! My opinion YMMV.
I hear ya....OP said 2 days ago he was going with a grade 8 bolt
Buy a lockable hitch pin keep it lubed and carry on
I have been a Structural Steel Welding and Bolting inspector for 34 years and in Commyfornia with all of the Earth Quake crap they frown very heavily of the use of a Grade 8 bolt for Structural use. I have seen Engineers spec out Grade 8 bolts but not very often. They do not like brittle bots for Structural use due to the Shock values.
Just my opinion but pulling a trailer with the bumps and humps in the road. That may create Shock on the Hitch pins
Structural bolts are almost exclusively used in shear. The shear strength of a grade 8 is higher than grade 5, and provides a higher shear strength value for the connection. Period. That being said, the bolt may not be the weak link - so using a stronger bolt might not gain any overall connection strength. There is no "bending" of a bolt in structural shear connection. Failure modes in steel are almost all catastrophic. The bolt shears, or the steel tears out in chunks (block shear). Seismic design requires the steel members not the connections, to yield and absorb the seismic energy. When a contractor complains about grade 8 bolts, it's because of the expense and availability, or lack there of.
Structural bolts like A325 and A490 are used as a clamp in most cases anymore Yes they have shear values but it is the Tension (Clamping Forces) that Engineers Calculate over the shear values That is why they Tension bolts in buildings instead of just having wrench tight bolts Think of a C Clamp holding something together. An Structural Bolt just does it from the inside instead of the out side.
i have used A325 bolts as a Hitch pin in a pinch when I could not find a hitch pin in the moment.
You are correct. That's called a slip critical connection. And the strength value of the connection is directly proportional to the "tightness" of the bolt. The tightness is about 70% of the bolts tensile strength with is based on the same psi strength value of the metal as the shear strength (oversimplification but good enough). Higher strength bolt = more tightness = stronger connection.
Yes But the original Poster was asking about hitch pins.
I was trying to explain about Brittle verses Malleable steels for Hitch pins.
Not Tension type Connections.
Shear shock a grade 8 bolt then Shear shock a grade 5 bolt. You may be surprised on the result. I have witnessed both.
A four runner at max speed strap and bolt is hold my beer
I almost puked reading the comments on this thread. There are a very few good ones, but anyone that believes the other 90% of the replies is a little dumber for doing so. Pull off the warning labels and let Darwin take over.
[quote=Jim_Conrad][/quote Some years ago, there was a similar incident here. Someone in a car with a trailer was up cutting firewood and got stuck in a creek. A guy in a pickup tried to put them out. There was no front hitch on the car so they wrapped the snatch strap around the front bumper and hooked it to a tow hook on the front of the pickup. The strap ripped the entire bumper off the car and it went through the windshield of the pickup, killing the driver.
I ran a grade 8 bolt in my receiver hitch to deter theft for 15 years across two trucks. Never had a hitch disappear. Only reason I went back to the pin was that the bolt threads finally got so rusty that I had to really work with get the nut off.
I ran a grade 8 bolt in my receiver hitch to deter theft for 15 years across two trucks. Never had a hitch disappear. Only reason I went back to the pin was that the bolt threads finally got so rusty that I had to really work with get the nut off.
I ran a grade 8 bolt in my receiver hitch to deter theft for 15 years across two trucks. Never had a hitch disappear. Only reason I went back to the pin was that the bolt threads finally got so rusty that I had to really work with get the nut off.
I ran a grade 8 bolt in my receiver hitch to deter theft for 15 years across two trucks. Never had a hitch disappear. Only reason I went back to the pin was that the bolt threads finally got so rusty that I had to really work with get the nut off.
I swear just taking the lid off of it makes you look like the Tin Man with all that stuff getting on you.... and the more you wipe it off, the more it spreads!
I can't believe this went as many posts as it has. I'll say again, if you are wheeling and relying on yanking your vehicles around with straps ,ropes and cables. Get a winch, and save yourselves lots of headaches, vehicle damage and possible injury. It's not rocket science! Winches are good investments, and if setup properly can be moved from front to back, and moved from vehicle to vehicle! My opinion YMMV.
That's the way mine was set up.If I had to yank some think.I put an old tire in the middle. Never had a tire fail either.
I ran a grade 8 bolt in my receiver hitch to deter theft for 15 years across two trucks. Never had a hitch disappear. Only reason I went back to the pin was that the bolt threads finally got so rusty that I had to really work with get the nut off.
Neverseize
How does a bolt, deter theft ?
Duh, it takes 2 wrenches and a good bit of time to remove the bolt. A pin can be removed and stolen in mere seconds
Thieves normally aren't walking around with 2 wrenches to remove bolts
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