https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/9...gon-has-produced-few-discernable-results


Today in "your tax dollars at work" news, the state of Oregon has found out that $9 billion it has doled out to help its salmon population (yes, the fish) has failed to produce any discernable results.

And to think, that's perfectly good money we could have sent to Ukraine!

A new report from NBC affiliate KGW8 this week noted that "hundreds" of projects the Columbia River Basin has undertaken - including "habitat restoration to bounty programs on other fish that prey on salmon" - have all failed to produce results.

The revelation came from a Oregon State University co-authored by Bill Jaeger, an applied economics professor at the university. His research was recently published in the journal PLOS One.

His study looked at 50 years of salmon return data from the lowest dam on the Columbia River. The study found that before the dams went up, 16 million salmonids returned to the basin each year. By the 2010s, that number had fallen to 1.5 million.

“For a long time, there have been questions about the effectiveness of a wide range of activities taken to try to restore salmon and steelhead in the Columbia River Basin. We do not find evidence of an increase in wild fish,” Jaeger said.

The salmon are facing pressure from “hydro, habitat, harvest and hatcheries,” he added, noting there have been "steep declines" in coho, chinook, sockeye and steelhead populations because dams block fish from swimming upriver.

“Many of those species listed since the 1990s under the Endangered Species Act are ones for which the numbers have declined and continue to be of great concern,” Jaeger added.

He railed on the egregious spending's lack of impact: “Cost effectiveness was a term that was occasionally used in a report but was never really undertaken as a serious methodology for determining where to spend money. The operations and the administration of these projects could have done a lot more to do serious cost-effective analysis to determine which of these activities seems to be generating more bang for the buck.”

He concluded: “I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about whether the money was wasted or not. That's behind us. I think what one can do, and what one should do, is look at this evidence and ask 'what should we be doing differently going forward?'”

Surprise,surprise, I'm totally shocked, shocked................... government projects not producing results. Quick we must spend another billion or two studying this.

You ain't seen nothin' yet. Wait until they are done removing the power gen dams on the Klamath River. Advertised as the way to restore Salmon runs...millions and millions being spent. Nobody has answered what is going to happen when there is no ice cold water off the bottom of the lakes to be released when summer water temps start killing smolt. Nobody has answered what is going to happen to a hundred miles of clean gravel streambed for spawning when a 70 year accumulation of silt enters the river.
One thing is very clear without an education...I don't care how salmon friendly you make the river...if there are no wild fish coming upstream to breed...you ain't gonna restore the runs.

It sounds like to me being a neophyte in all things salmon, that is you all don't kill the seals at the mouth of the river, not a single salmon is going to go anywhere into fresh water. Factor in the Indians who have no restrictions and there you have the problems of why there are no salmon in the river.

kwg

Having worked for years on salmonid restoration (in NorCal and Columbia/Snake basins) , the two things you mention (seals and Indian harvest) are pretty low on the totem pole as to the cause of the decline in salmonid populations.

Do they have some effect.............of course. But they are readily visible and easily quantifiable and folks think it would be easy to just solve those issues and the numbers of salmonids would rise again. Nope, not happenin'.

Not 1 word in there about sea lions. I've read that they eat 40,000 lb of fish PER DAY. How can that not affect the fish runs? Our idiots in congress passed the Marine Mammal Act just like they did the wild horse act. They didn't read what they voted on or do any research into what happens after their goals are met. The sea lions and horses keep on reproducing and the law doesn't allow for population control.

And the double indemnity for the farmers: water will be much more limited when this cluster f__gg happens.

From what I read, there is a lot going on. Killing all sea lions would be a good start. Rubber from tires don't seem to help cohos when washed into the rivers from what I hear.

Returning wild runs to former glory probably isn't going to happen. Keep up hatchery programs.

Not much escapes satellite observations in the North Pacific nowadays. All the signatories to the International fishing treaties cheat of course...but the Russians, Koreans don't even try to hide it. The number 436,000 metric tonnes was thrown around a couple years ago. It's overfishing by a wide margin. Kamchatka is the Bermuda triangle in a salmon's life...many go in, few come out.

You can tear out all the damns you want, spend all the Billions too untill you get the nets outta the rivers raking the fish off there spawning beds it will never change.
Then start reducing the sea lions, reduce the commercial fishing and stop the illegal raping of other country's boats

If they want to really be honest about salmon counts, they would us charts of how salmon returns held fairly steady until passage of the marine mammals act.

Those cute little furry sea lions eat far more salmon than man ever caught.

Or the state of Alaska pumping hundreds and hundreds of millions of chums and pinks into the ocean....... critters gotta eat, too.

I didn’t know marines had mammaries.

Today's Marines mostly have screw-ons...

This is a very uncomfortable conundrum for the sustainable energy zealots. The dams generate electricity with miniscule carbon footprints. Do the crazies leave the climate-friendly dams in place, or do they bring back the salmon?

Well??????

Sherm 61 You totally get it! Best post on the thread. I was a boat dealer in OR for 30 years.

Don't hold your breath. Oregon categorizes hydro-power as "dirty".

If you want ZERO carbon, go nuclear. But that fall on deaf ears.

BMT

Actually there are no boats dragging salmon off their spawning beds. By the time salmon start to spawn they are too dark to eat. Unless you are talking dogs and pinks where the processors make lots of money on ripe roe.

You list a lot of issues but there are so many more in so many places, ways, and killing salmon at so many different stages. Last number I heard for the Columbia dams was over 10% of smolts are killed at each dam.

But the real elephant in the room is the proverbial elephant being inspected by blind men. No one man gets the real picture because everyone is looking at different parts. Divide and conquer... this is truly where we are.

Have you watched the tribes drift nets down the rivers in March and April when the big native steelhead are in the rivers, I have first hand. I grew up on the Skagit River in the 70's untill 1992 fishing that river for steelhead and salmon and saw what it was before the tribal netting and after. The dams were on that river when it was the #1 River in the world for Steelhead BEFORE tribal netting started then it went down hill fast in 10 years.
By the mid to late 80's you could see a big difference in the Steelhead and Salmon runs returning.
Today on the Skagit a white guy can't even fish when the tribes are in the river netting.

It seems to me that if you want to restore fisheries anywhere in this country, you need to thin out the indians.

You can't even drill a water well on your own property in the Skagit basin because the tribes say its taking water away from the Skagit water shed hurting the fish runs.
Its B.S.
Its not rocket science Google fish run numbers before tribal netting started and after, just like Elk herds in Yellowstone before the wolves and after.

Pull the nets out of the rivers and mouth and you will see a big difference in fish returns after, but it will never happen.
Go up to the Mouth of the Baker river were it dumps into the Skagit in Concrete and watch the tribal netting when the sockeye are running then you will get it.

You wan to help fish shoot sea lions. I'd do it for $5 a piece. Stack em up like cordwood.

That is a GREAT IDEA...

You should do it.

And post lots and lots of pictures on the Web.

It isn't a conundrum at all, those dams should never have been built in the first place.

As for dams on the Klamath River, only one was built with a good fish ladder. There is no ice cold water rsleased from these dams, because there is no cold water stored in these shallow water, algea infested pools of water. The ability to dump water volumn from the bottom of Copco and Irongate dams does not exist. If the Klamath is to be restored the Trinity River needs to run free. Thats where the water issue is, taking out the other dams might help, without the water from the Trinity forget about saving anything. Removing the Trinity dams will never happen. It's now supplying California's population, which as we all know is more important than fish. This is a complete different situation than the Columbia and Snake River problems. There you have a choice, that effects the west coast. Remove the columbia dams and remove power from most Washington, Oregon and a considerable amount of California, plus some of Idaho.
The lake feeding the river above these dams to be removed on the Klamath River was 69 degrees surface yesterday, with an average depth of 8 ft, not much cold water to release. One problem is hatchery removal, and thinking that the hatchery and native had not cross spawned, prior to trying to segerate them! Goverment at work. The netting, sealions and over fishing the off shore comments are right on!

Yes, but it's Kleeeennn energy.

We don't always agree, but when we do we're usually both right

Again, having worked in the field trying to keep runs going, the statement in bold is something I discovered as a student before even starting to work with salmonid issues. The commercial fishers blamed the loggers, who blamed the Indian netters, who blamed the cattle grazers in the headwaters, who blamed the seal lovers, who blamed the hatchery folks, who blamed the gravel extraction industry (where I lived at the time), who blamed the recreational fishers, who blamed the Fish and Game folks, and on and on and on...............................and no on could (or wanted to) look at their part in the deal.

On the big rivers, there's also dams, irrigation, municipal uses, industry, etc.

Interesting you brought up the Trinity situation.

Some folks don't realize that by some estimates up to 2/3 of the spawning area in that system disappeared when they put in the dams up there to divert water to the Sacramento system. A lot of water that, as you say, not many want to see go back into the Trinity/Klamath system.

Heym, I'm no fish guy by a long shot...and I don't carry a thermometer in my pocket...but the fish ladder you spoke of is on the last dam downstream...Irongate. It goes directly into the hatchery, I have accompanied at least 4 skool kid field trips to the hatchery over the years, it is and has been a hugely successful operation for 60+ years. Copco 1, Copco 2 and Irongate are over 77 feet deep full pool and the water IS ice cold below the surface. Link River dam/Klamath Lake itself is a pool of water and cowschidt, horrible water quality...John Boyle dam is only 12 feet deep...at each succeeding dam downstream the water quality IMPROVES because the temp and silt load go down. Time will tell, but I predict more stress on the Chinook runs. And just as a side note, 2 of the Karuk Tribal hires, paid as full fledged fish biologists and dam removal experts? I know them personally, neither graduated High School. The fix is in...and Warren Buffet's PacifiCorp is smiling.

The 3 biggest concerns for returning runs here are HABITAT, HABITAT and HABITAT! If they can’t spawn no amount of money will increase escapement.

As Calvin mentioned earlier the wash from the roadways after the first heavy fall rains has killed untold numbers of coho here. The oil, rubber and crap from cars all summer long washes into the creeks and rivers during low water of summer and since dilution is the solution to pollution there’s not enough water to dilute it to tolerable levels.

Habitat HAS to be a priority!

A couple kids with .223's shooting seals and pelicans would make a discernable difference.

The salmon are screwed…. they have too many interface points with us, too many ways things can go sideways in the various stages of their life cycle.

I agree that it can be argued in good faith that it’d be throwing good money after bad to keep trying to save the runs. I’d add to that that it’s be a pathetic state of affairs if we don’t at least keep trying.

I catch them in the ocean. Not that that’s better karma or anything like that; but the quality of the meat is off the charts when they haven’t sniffed freshwater yet.

Yes, that calm looking pond is the Pacific. She lays down for us some days.

They cover millions of square miles of "habitat" in a huge variety of circumstances and situations with salmon being either a target or innocent bystanders, but killed just the same.

You are correct about irongate and the hatchery. Copco one and two are pools of frog water from the basin. and Klamath Lake. John C. Boyle is way deeper than 12 feet. Not sure how much, and has the best fish ladder in my opinion. Keno will be left and it is close to the 12 ft depth. As long as the Trinity is diverted iinto the Sacramento it’s game off. Not to mention opening up the the mouth so fish could enter the system, during low water. Lots of man made mistakes on the Klamath River system. The best thing no dams will do , is help with parasites in the river. They can flush and dry.

Heym,

Do you support Jeff O’s outlook on American politics?

What’s the over/under on how many cocks fit in Jeff’s head?

It doesn't matter how much habitat you have if there's nothing to use it.
There were dams on the Skagit for 40+ years with the best runs of Steelhead and Salmon in the lower 48 untill the Bolt decision, its been a steady decline since.
Like I said spend a considerable amount of time on the rivers and witness whats going on instead of believing everthing you read.

Tribes hire biologists to give the opinions they want to hear. There are lots of studies on the klamath supporting both sides of the issue. Money won. Trinity is still the best chance to cure. I wonder why they didn’t start there. I actually would like to see one , tall dam with bottom outlets. That backed water from the California line to Keno. Then we could store cold water and create a great fishery.

Heym, I think all of us in the PNW want healthy runs. I just don’t think it’s gonna happen. Their life cycle is too complex; there’s too many places it can go wrong.

Contrast that to the ling cod, another of my favorite fish. I understand they were in trouble from overfishing in the 70’s. Some limits were put on their catch and BOOM, they rebounded and are THRIVING. But they have a very simple life cycle with minimal human interface. Reducing take and not allowing trawlers to scrape the bottom for them was all it took. We screw salmon in multiple ways, from the spawning beds to the ocean and back again.

I certainly support trying, but I’m not optimistic about saving the salmon runs. Nobody quite knows what human-caused warming is going to do to the northern Pacific, although the snow crab massacre is really spooky…. but it’s likely “something” will be changing and with our luck, it’ll be bad for the salmon.

Your wife needs to apply your enema and buy school supplies. All signs point toward you putting on a wig and going to Portland, Jeff. LOL

Give us a count. You keep trying to get yours there.

While I disagree with Jeff about all the time on politics, he is right about the state of the salmon run.

Nothing to do with fish biology but to give you guys and idea about the economic side, we (us Jefferson State 51 loonies) had a ''save the dams, candidate night'' three years ago. Surprisingly the candidates for fed and state legislature showed up and spoke...almost without interruption. Our US Rep Doug LaMalfa held us spellbound for 20 minutes when he answered, "Why is PacifiCorp not fighting this proposal..after all it's their generating capacity to lose?" It turns out, according to Rep LaMalfa, that the hydro plants and penstocks were at the end of their projected life...erosion, silt wear, electrolysis, vibration had taken their toll. It would have to be replaced (the environmental studies to allow that, exceeded the actual construction estimates) ...OR...dam removal. So Warren Buffet's advisors told him, if we can sell the idea that we can restore the river and the salmon numbers by removing the dams, we qualify to have the taxpayers foot most of the bill...we can't do that if we decide to repair and upgrade the generating facilities, the entire amount will fall on PacifiCorp customers. So Buffet sends his minions out with the checkbook to get the Klamath Tribes on board (that was easy) and drops a few bucks here and there...Trinity Restoration Council, Salmon River Restoration Council and Pacific Fishery Management Council. And oh, did I mention Kiewitt? The rest will be history, whether it works or not will be seen.

You’re a stupid fugking idiot

Just more clams replying to people that are on ignore

GO FUGK YOURSELF

Everybody is making the same old mistake... and that is to believe .gov is actually seeking solutions.... a hint, they aren't seeking a solution to any thing except growing the bureaucracy...
And pensions and .gov power etc....

Same with race relations, poverty and the list goes on. If they were to solve problems they would no longer be needed

I'm sure no crooked politicians got their hands in the pot down the chain.

Conferences and meetings do little to rectify the problem. Put 90% of that money on the ground and one might make some progress.

One of my reasons for living was to spend about 3 weeks per year angling for summer steelhead. Present counts over the Dalles (Columbia River) Dam has the run at about 35% of the last 10-year average. That average value has been progressively declining too. A days worth of fishing might net me one bite, so I'm passing again this year.

I see you have nothing to add, as usual. I'm a FJB, anti communist, phu ccking Constitutional voter. Now go outside, and get some sun dude, your getting pinky pale! GFY

Hmmmnn?

I wonder what Kiewit's total bill will end up being?

And yes, we'll see if it works, hopefully within my lifetime.