From RealClearHistory.com….
Westmoreland was right
If Kennedy was not murdered , the US would never had gone further than advisory roll.
Kennedy was murdered , so that the US would go further than advisory roll.
I took liberties to clean up your post a little.
We are talking about LBJ. How right was he on his War on Poverty and his Great Society ?? It appears he got as much wrong as does Joe Biden.
kwg
Kennedy
Nixon
Regan
Trump
Over the past 60 plus years they were the only POTUS that somewhat thought for themselves. I’m not a fan of Nixon but he was more of an outsider than a political puppet. Two of them were shot one killed. The other two were taken down with the FBI working with the media/propaganda wing in ways that never would have happened if it had been a puppet establishment President.
The war was won in 1968.
North Vietnam would never have been able to take over South Vietnam if not for the rollback of American support.
Real Clear History? Not so much. Diem was a crook supported by the CIA (rigged election), who eventually murdered him...a few more crooks ran S. Vietnam for short periods, by the time I got there in '65 it was Ky...according to all the locals...the most hated man in Vietnamese history.
We lost not so much from tactics...we lost because we endlessly propped up crooked leaders hated and despised by their own citizens. The Vietnamese are a tough and resilient people...if they had good leaders, they would have done well with American financial support...but they hated their govt and would not fight for it. They had already been at war for 25 years before we got there...and they kicked Michelin Rubber Corp, (France) out the door. Teaching the ballyhooed French Foreign Legion a thing or two by the way.
LBJ was too busy getting filthy rich- - - -he owned a huge chunk of Sea Land- - - -the shipping container outfit that transported everything to southeast Asia. You might ask some of us who were actually there about how phugged up the war effort was- - - - -launching three B-52s loaded with 30,000 pounds of bombs each every 4 hours 24/7 like I was involved in, or finding targets for us to hit like Rocky did- - - -or being on the tip of the spear like Dan was, along with a lot of other guys who survived that hell hole! With efficient leadership, and a LOT less emphasis on McNamara's "body count", we could have wrapped up the whole mess in less than a year. The whole mess was a money laundry for corrupt politicians- - - -a lot like Afghanistan was, and Ukraine is these days!
What is rarely mentioned about the history of the Vietnam war, the Administration was deathly afraid of China entering the war.
The sight of 3 million Chinese swarming over the border from the north gave them nightmares. Remember, this was only 10-15 years after the Korean War.
It limited some of their war strategy.
The Whizz Kids were Pussy’s ..
What would that be, lying through his teeth?
Phil
What would that be, lying through his teeth?
Phil
Your tiny pecker?
LBJ deserved a public hanging for what he led us into. Millions died and he made money from it. Westmoreland could have brought it to a quick end if given the reins.
That's a bunch of BS... LBJ nor his wife had anything to do with SeaLand Shipping. They didn't even start shipping to Vietnam until his last year in office. As to the Radio station, Lady Bird bought that fair and square with her inheritance, no matter what you all believe... a first-term congressman wouldn't have had any pull at all with the FCC... which is what Johnson was in 1943 when they bought the station. If you want to blame someone for Vietnam, blame Nixon and Eisenhower... if you want to blame someone for the escalation, blame Westmorland... for all his lying as to what was happening.
Phil
That's a bunch of BS... LBJ nor his wife had anything to do with SeaLand Shipping. They didn't even start shipping to Vietnam until his last year in office. As to the Radio station, Lady Bird bought that fair and square with her inheritance, no matter what you all believe... a first-term congressman wouldn't have had any pull at all with the FCC... which is what Johnson was in 1943 when they bought the station. If you want to blame someone for Vietnam, blame Nixon and Eisenhower... if you want to blame someone for the escalation, blame Westmorland... for all his lying as to what was happening.
Phil
Any thoughts on Brown and Root’s presence and who profited from that?
.
General Westmoreland then focused on a third strategy: cutting the Ho Chi Minh trail running from North Vietnam south through Laos into South Vietnam.
Good example of "talk is cheap" (and a feeble attempt to re-write history)
Look at a map of Southeast Asia.
How are you going to cut all the infiltration points into South Vietnam ?
Westmoreland was a World War II warrior that did not know how to fight a guerrilla war.
A war that we should never have gotten involved in.
It was only a guerrilla war in limited fashion, mostly in the southern reaches of S. Vietnam. Otherwise it was conventional warfare. Guerrilla warfare doesn’t use vehicles, artillery, or tanks, or aircraft.
A very large part of what was known as the Ho Chi Minh Trail was through very mountainous terrain, and thus was confined to a small menu of path alternatives. This made closure an option. Case in point: ~March ‘70: 43 vehicles destroyed by a Specter gunship slightly north of Hamburger Hill. A few days later 3 more were destroyed when the northwestern segment of the A Shau Valley that was burned by a deranged chopper pilot, leaving them no place to conceal vehicles or supplies. There was no significant military action in the valley for at least 2 months.
Maps are useful, but there is no substitute for eyes on the ground.
Ask yourself why did the North sign off on the Paris Peace Accords? Simple fact is that their supply network had been crushed and they had no way to continue waging the war.
I appreciate the perspective of those of you who were actually there, involved in the war.
One thing we never seem to learn, or forget what our parents taught us, is two wrongs don't make a right.
Early example from my own military experience: Chiang Kai-Shek and his Chinese Nationalists. Zalenskyy and Ukraine? Time, and eventually history, will tell.
We weren’t supposed to win. The idea was to drag it out as long as possible and keep the tax dollars flowing throw the military/industrial complex and back into the pockets of the crooked politicians. They kept it up as long as the American people would tolerate it. Same game plan in the Middle East.
I agree.
How did it happen that we kicked Iraq’s ass so quickly in the first round? Simple it was. G. H. Bush ordered his commanders to kick butt. They did so, and the conflict was over within a few months.
Amazing how Gheygagger can be so wrong SO OFTEN.
more disinformation from a non credible source. A total lack of will to win was what caused the waste of American lives in Viet Nam.
Those of us who actually worked the Ho Chi Minh Trail can tell you it was an impossible task. The best analogy is not that of a highway but of your blood system. The HCMT may have started out as a major artery, but it constantly branched out into smaller and smaller paths. I never saw a working truck in Cambodia, but I did see fresh tire tracks, and actually spotted a single guy pushing a bicycle loaded with bags of rice - who we were able to capture.
Each of us has our own stories, but those stories are but the last lower-left pixel of the Big Picture of Vietnam. No one guy's experience or opinion can be definitive. Except to say that it was one effed-up war, muddled and confused, often contradictory within days. And all because of inept or even deliberately obstructive civilian politicians.
We ended up winning, but by default. Vietnam today may be nominally Communist at the top, but it is a thriving capitalist country at street level.
Good point, Rocky- - - - -the next time somebody goes to his favorite local fast food fish place, he's probably going to be eating food that was grown somewhere in the Mekong river- - - - -in water that would make your local sewage treatment plant look clean by comparison!
Had we executed
Operation Pocket Money in 1966 instead of 1972 there would have been no supplies to move down the HMT.
I believe war to be the ultimate vulgarity. I believe we should never have been involved in Vietnam. But IF you are going to go to war, you go to win, with the fewest losses on your own side.
Had we bombed North Vietnam like we bombed Dresden, the north would have capitulated in days not years.
American’s wouldn’t stomach that.
Had we executed
Operation Pocket Money in 1966 instead of 1972 there would have been no supplies to move down the HMT.
THIS.
Real Clear History? Not so much.
All I needed to read was the first few words:
"Three years ago, the United States gave up its defense of freedom and constitutional democracy for the people of Afghanistan."
The people of Afghanistan don't even know what democracy is. Utter and total bullsh*t.
We weren’t supposed to win. The idea was to drag it out as long as possible and keep the tax dollars flowing throw the military/industrial complex and back into the pockets of the crooked politicians. They kept it up as long as the American people would tolerate it. Same game plan in the Middle East.
That is a good description of every war we have been engaged in since World War 2 and probably several prior to that.
The war was won after Tet, General Giap admitted that they had lost and no longer had the manpower or supplies to continue at any level needed to win and were going to push for a cease in hostilities UNTIL an American correspondent said the US had lost, that was Walter Cronkite. His statement created a uptick in demonstrations against the war and the north saw a glimmer of opportunity.
I bse this statement on Giap's book about the war.
Ask yourself why did the North sign off on the Paris Peace Accords? Simple fact is that their supply network had been crushed and they had no way to continue waging the war.
No, how are you going to stop tens of thousands of guys with backpacks and bicycles ?
You can't.
They came back to the peace talks because Hanoi was getting pounded by the B-52's and they couldn't do much about it.
Their strategy became, "Let's sign off on the peace accords, get this bombing turned off and when the Americans leave, we'll defeat the ARVN"
Kennedy was murdered , so that the US would go further than advisory roll role.
I took liberties to clean up your post a little.
Geeze.
And had we won, what would we have won ?
The US hasn't had a war run by generals since WWII. They've all been run by politicians and we've lost them all.
Wars are business ventures and have nothing to do with "winning".
Wars are business ventures and have nothing to do with "winning".
So WWI and WWII were business ventures ?
"Three years ago, the United States gave up its defense of freedom and constitutional democracy for the people of Afghanistan."
His initial sentence is absurd. Sounds like he has been getting advice from Idiot Boy George Bush. Bush thought he could install a constitutional democracy in Afghanistan. George opened schools for girls and let them take off the Burkha.
The problem is, the Afghanis are Muslim savages stuck in the 8th century. Soon after we left, hard core Muslims took back over, closed the girl's schools and reinstated the Burkha. You can't change 1,400 years of history.
George Bush was a fool, and so is the author of this piece.
Ask yourself why did the North sign off on the Paris Peace Accords? Simple fact is that their supply network had been crushed and they had no way to continue waging the war.
No, how are you going to stop tens of thousands of guys with backpacks and bicycles ?
You can't.
They came back to the peace talks because Hanoi was getting pounded by the B-52's and they couldn't do much about it.
Their strategy became, "Let's sign off on the peace accords, get this bombing turned off and when the Americans leave, we'll defeat the ARVN"
Get over the packs and bike theory, it wasn’t the way they operated. They came to the accords because their allies had no path to provide supplies. Not land, sea or air.
Earlier times illustrate how they operated.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lam_Son_719During the spring offensive in ‘72 they used tanks and APC’s, heavy artillery etc. it was NOT a bicycle war. Spring ‘70 they flew Giáp into the general area of the A Shau Valley by chopper for a conference with unit commanders.
"Three years ago, the United States gave up its defense of freedom and constitutional democracy for the people of Afghanistan."
His initial sentence is absurd. Sounds like he has been getting advice from Idiot Boy George Bush. Bush thought he could install a constitutional democracy in Afghanistan. George opened schools for girls and let them take off the Burkha.
The problem is, the Afghanis are Muslim savages stuck in the 8th century. Soon after we left, hard core Muslims took back over, closed the girl's schools and reinstated the Burkha. You can't change 1,400 years of history.
George Bush was a fool, and so is the author of this piece.
Good post ^^^
"A few days later 3 more were destroyed when the northwestern segment of the A Shau Valley that was burned by a deranged chopper pilot, leaving them no place to conceal vehicles or supplies."
DigitalDan do you know who that chopper pilot was?
Yes I do. I love the smell of burning valleys in the afternoon. My gunner did not enjoy flying through a big fireball that lifted up in our face. The USAF FAC that was watching asked me to stop 'cause his Tac Fighters wouldn't be able to see his smoke if he needed to mark a target. Well, we were running low on WP grenades, so we left. After two weeks about 75% of the valley floor was ash. Wish I could tell you how easy it was to track NVA on the trails they left behind.
We are talking about LBJ. How right was he on his War on Poverty and his Great Society ?? It appears he got as much wrong as does Joe Biden.
kwg
I worked with an older man that once said, they ought to dig that old son of a bitch (Johnson) up, and burn what's left of him, and take it to the sewer.
His "200 year" prediction on "voting democrat" seems to be wearing off a little too soon- - - - -like about 150 years' worth! Getting a major population group hooked on "free stuff" and then pulling the plug in favor of a different bunch- - - - - -sounds like a pretty stupid strategy to me!