Why the 358 Win never took off? Do you think if rifle and ammo manufactures tried to market this caliber again it would take off? With the push on the short action magnums from manufactures why not try and push this one again?

Few people wanted it the first time around, despite how good a round it is.

No, the "in" thing now is fast twist and high BC bullets.

One would think that it was a Remington introduction.

^

This pretty much.

Last I read the actual numbers of hunters is declining. I've also heard that a lot of the rifle & scopes purchased or used more for target shooting, with a secondary use in hunting. IF that's true, then really a cartridge like the .358 Win isn't ideal in a dual purpose role.

I put one together last year (Rem 7600), and I also own a .350 Rem Mag, but neither one is something I grab when heading out back to punch paper or ring steel.

Coton,
That is good question.

The .358 is a very good cartridge , however , without comparing it here to the counterparts, which if one studies that aspect , one would find an excellent choice.

I put a lot of blame on gun writers for the unpopularity of the .358.

I have little respect for them, and or their opinions.

I think gun writers by and large have not been able to see the potential of the .358. There reasons for omitting it is part of the mystery.

Most of them are too myopic to look beyond the 45/70.

Of course I still shoot a .348.

The mild little 35 Rem was quite popular as a "woods" deer round. The 350 RemMag was just silly. The 35 Whelen was a bit much for a lot of shooters. The 358 fell right in the middle, kinda like Goldilock's "just right" porridge. That might seem to have made it perfect, but it had the opposite effect. The old 35 Rem guys stuck with their little blammer, macho Whelen shooters sneered at anything weaker, and there weren't enough hunters left to venture into unfamiliar territory.

The owner of the pawn shop where I worked for a while had a gorgeous little Sako (Vixen?) in 358. I loaded up a box of "Punkin Poppers" for it using 125-gr JHP pistol bullets. I tried some first. Talk about orange mist! Reduced loads using jacketed pistol bullets are a hoot in the 358.

What makes ANY caliber become popular?

As an "in-between" caliber goes, what about the .41 Rem Mag?
More power than the .357 Mag, yet less recoil and easier to handle than the .44 Rem Mag.
I have a S&W M57 w/8 3/8" bbl. It's built on the N frame.
The only difference between it and a M29 is that a little less metal was removed during production. The M57 is just a touch heavier. With a bit milder cartridge, recoil is more manageable.
I find the .41 Rem Mag to be a perfect 👌 compromise.
Initially, LEO's loved it, but as the wheel gun gave way to the semi auto in law enforcement, the .41 Rem Mag has pretty much died.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of perfectly good cartridges that are languishing just because of "popularity"!
Who knew?

I always wanted to have a stainless synthetic Win 70 built in 358 with a Leupy 2.5-8x36.

Would make a nice woods gun.

Always seems like other stuff gets priority though

I always wanted a savage 99 in 358 if I find the right deal I may buy one. I'm afraid missing several fingers the recoil may either send the gun flying or smack me in the face.

A 358 Win fan here.

An odd combination of things.

Designed as a light, handy rifle cartridge, its premiere 250 gr. bullet was a kicker in those rifles.

And the .308 in the lighter weight bullet had better sectional density.

Heavier rifles to shoot the heavy bullets had the .35 Whelen/9.3x62mm.

All the while competing against the tried and true 200-220 gr. .30-06.

Like the modern .338 Federal, it was a niche cartridge from the start.




GR

In the past I used to favor the 25-06, 30-06, 35 Whelen platform. The last few years I have become more a fan of the 243, 308, 358 platform. I have also become more interested in rifle/pistol caliber lever action guns. I have a 41 Magnum revolver. A lever rifle in the same caliber would fit nicely. But then I like the 45-70 on the upper end.

Have some good experience with the cartridge and rifle, but not knowledgeable enough to assess why it never "took off". After such success/enjoyment with the easy to load/use .35 Whelen and the plethora of stuff flooded onto the scene these days, have doubts that the .358 Win could be successfully pushed.

Would have been a much better cartridge as a rimed 35 with Semi-Flat Point bullets intended for tube fed lever-actions, falling in between the 30-30 and the 38-55.

Phil

Well that sounds like the 356 Winchester. Another great cartridge that few seem to want.

Except that the 356 Win. came along 80 some odd years later and people were already into AR's.

Phil

My first centerfire rifle was a Win 94 AE in .356. Had a Leupold 1.5-5

My Ruger American is the first gun I got to shoot sub-moa at 100 yds with cast bullets.

Having every caliber in the .308 case based cartridges, the one that was missing was a .358. Also having every cartridge in the.35 again the .358 was missing. I picked up a Remington 700 short action from on of our members a few years ago, I thought the one caliber I wanted to build off of was the .358 win. So the Remington 700 was mated with a stainless medium contour .358 win barrel. I scored a Leupold vari xIII LPS 1.5-6x 42 from a local guy. Perfect short -medium range thumper. Maybe one day Ill find something to shoot with it.

I have four rifles chambered to the .358. I did have five. It was a 98 Mauser made by Kodiak. They took milsurp Mausers, put them in cheap maple stocks and rebarreled them. Probably as cheaply as possible. I had the one in .358 which never shot worth a damn and a matching gun in .243 Win. which was a tackdriver. I also shot one belonging to a friend chambered to the .308 Norma magnum. For a cartridge that was so unpopular, when I put it on a table at a gun show with a $300 price tag there were several guys that wanted it like right now.

The keepers were two Ruger M77 tangers, an early Browning BLR and a Savage M99. Funny thing is the two lever guns outshot the two Rugers by a wide margin. The lever guns had 1 in 12" twists and the Rugers are 1 in 16" twist. I never could get decent groups from those two Rugers.

Like Rocky, I place a lot of the blame on some gun writers that considered the .358 just to be another short range woods cartridge. I just happen to think it's quite a bit better than that. I also admit when I got a .35 Whelen the .358s went into semi-retirement.
PJ

Myself, I've got a really nice NH model 70 Featherweight in 358 Win. and a Classic Stainless in 358 STA. Have always liked the 35's...

Phil

Mine above is built on a pre-64 M70 action. It shoots the 200 gr TTSX pretty well. Years ago I had a "fake" pre-64 M70 in 358 Win that was a pretty good remake.

The 358 Winchester is a very under rated cartridge. It is deadly as a woods gun with the 180s and 200s. And is a real killer out to 300 yards, without a single premium bullets. Standard Win or Rem bullets work just great.

A M-96 conversion to a 358 Win I am currently working on. This is the after fitting it to feed, photo of the brass, dummy ammo, action, bolt, scope base and bolt shroud mods.


This is the insetted and glass bedded anction annd bottom metal with metal cerakoted stage, muzzle is threaded and with an AR brake on as a thread protector.

One of my "holy Grail" guns would be a Browning BLR in .358 Win. I can't think of a better combo for Eastern Woodlands deer and black bear.

The deer hunting rules have changed in several States. I would think anything .357 and bigger would be a hit. Unfortunately, the demand for anything but .350 legend is small. It's a great round but it would be competing with the plentiful .350.

kwg

I have two.
Bottom is a 358 Savage 99
The lone picture is a Custom left hand Montana Rifle Co. in a Serengeti laminated Stock.
The Winchester Model 88 is a close mate to a 358, I had it re-barreled to a 338/308
All of them work great in the deer woods.

Marketing. Anything Old sucks. Gotta be new so it can be hyped. Hype drives sales Sales bring that sweet vaginal nectar called money. Money makes. the world go round


No one NEEDS a new caliber. Its want and money.

Where is the demand for the .350 ? It had a year jimp on the Buckhammer, and even with the Remington curse, Buckhammer sales have surpassed because of bullet selection.

Going 9mm was a HUGE mistake. That"s why the .400 Legend is getting all the hype. The .350 is dead. Keep an eye out for bargains.

I have at least four Savage 99's in 358 from 16" to 24" barrels. I like the 16" carbine the best. They are deadly accurate and hell on bears with the 180 Barnes ttsx. Piles them right the hell up.

It is a great round, and remarkably effective. Mine was a Ruger 77 that shot factory 250 grain loads sub MOA out of the box. It went down the block some time ago, mostly 'cause I didn't get to do any tracking, each and every time I pulled the trigger.

The .358 win. Is NOT a heavy kicker. The .358 Norma Magnum which was grabbing press at the same time is.

Ignorance by J.O. Public thinking the two were the same , helped doom the round.

Murphy's law 2.0 , if "stoopdity" can screw up a good thing. It will. (Ref: C19)

Gee! It's always been astonishing to me that so many hunters apparently think all "gun writers" think alike--perhaps because they have only read a few "gun writers," or haven't read any for years.

My experience with the .358 goes back over half a century, when one of my hunting mentors had a Savage 99 Featherweight .358. He was born and raised in New York and started hunting whitetails in the Catskills. Back then the common wisdom was that heavy, medium-caliber bullets were needed to "shoot through" brush--which has been since proven wrong.

But he still much preferred using the original 250-grain Winchester factory load, for two reasons: It killed deer just as well as the 200-grain load, with less meat damage. That opinion continued after he moved to Montana after high school, and he started hunting elk as well.

There was a reason for this back then: The 250-grain factory load held together and penetrated deeper than the thin-jacketed 200-grain bullets--especially in the thick timber many elk were found back then.

But eventually Winchester discontinued the 250-grain factory load, apparently because too many hunters thought it kicked too much. I started handloading 250-grain round-nose Hornadys for him at that time, which worked perfectly for him on game from close-up timber deer to a big 6x6 bull elk at around 250 yards.

I eventually inherited his rifle when he passed away, too young, and have used it considerably since then. But have also owned two other .358s, both bolt-action Ruger 77s, the second one a stainless/synthetic Mark II, which I used to work up a bunch of "modern" loads for an article in Handloader magazine a while back. It worked great with newer powders, and bullets from 180-250 grains. This article eventually was re-published in 2018 as a chapter in The Big Book of Gun Gack II, which is available through www.riflesandrecipes.com.

Eventually I sold the bolt rifles, and have only hunted with the 99 since then--often with a batch of older 250-grain Hornadys, which still work just fine.

I’d buy one in a sav 99 out of curiosity

Marlin built a lever gun in .41 Rem Mag.
They are rare as hen's teeth!
You can find them on-line, but you best have DEEP pockets!

I would love to have a Ruger M77RS carbine in 358 WIN, but not for the prices they have on GUNBROKER

I've owned 3 rifles in 358 Win, Savage 99A, Savage 99F and a custom 98 Mauser...killed deer with factory 200gr Winchester Silver Tips they hammered deer , but eventually they all went down the road

I have a bobbed barrel (24" down to 22") Savage 99EG in .358 Wn, and it's one of my favorite Whitetail guns. I also hunt the Catskills of NY (not far from Oneonta), the thing is a Deer hammer. I use 200GR Nosler ballistic tip handloads, don't remember the powder charge without consulting notes, but I'm pretty sure i'm using IMR4064. -Tom

In many ways the .308 Winchester was a nearly perfect rifle cartridge. Lots of effort went into necking it up and down for various diameter bullets. the most successful offerings were smaller bullets pushed faster.

What would anyone hunt with a .358 Win, that he wouldn't hunt with the .308 Win? The .358 is, for most porpoises, a chubby, slow .308...

And that is one reason I don’t own one. But thank you for pointing it out. I don’t know if Ruger has plans to make one or not.

Your point is well taken. My interest in the 358 would be cast bullets. I like shooting bullets I have cast myself. I don’t consider cast bullets appropriate for the 243 or 308 due to velocity. The 358 would shoot heavier cast bullets at slower velocities.

One shot kills both with a 358 last fall

I've always wanted one, and I had a Savage 99A brush gun for awhile. I'm just not a lever action guy, and I sold the 99 on here to build my SS M70 .338-06. I have a 24" Shaw Savage magnum contour barrel chambered in .358 Win in the closet, I may use one day. I just know I probably won't hunt with the rifle as it would be way heavier than I like to carry. I don't like to carry rifles that over 8.5 lbs, and the parts I have would put me closer to 10 with optics.

I've often thought of having WTO build a switch lug rifle in .358 Win, 6mm Creedmoor, and maybe toss in a .308 Win barrel for good measure. I'm kind of to the point where I don't want to add a lot more rifles to my collection. However, there are still things I want to try.

I'm surprised there wasn't a resurgance of the cartridge when MS went to break action rifles, with exposed hammers, and .35 cal or larger for primitive season. I have never read the regs, so maybe it requires a longer cartridge and why the .35 Whelen got the nod. I just can't imagine the .358 Win not working just as well as the Whelen in a break action rifle.

I like the mid-bores for woods hunting for still hunting and doing drives. Often under those conditions I can't guarantee a double lung shot. I find the .35 caliber kills well at moderate velocity while not screwing up too much meat. I put this together last year just for our annual late season doe drives, but it works on pigs too:





Rem 7600 in .243Win that I had bored out to .358Win and the barrel shortened to 19"

I came to the 358 Win late, had two but now just one. The reason I’ve one at all is because of Iowa’s eminently logical deer rifle regulations.

Previously, I had 350 Rem mag’s, a 35 Whelen, and a 35 Whelen Improved. “Improved” if you can count star dust and moon beams. Had a yearning a bit for the Norma but already had a 340 Wby.

I liked the 35’s including the 358. Hope to take an Iowa deer with it yet. Also may be doing a NE Sandhills hunt this fall and will probably take three rifles — a 284 Win, a 243 Win (backup and for calling coyotes if I fill my deer tag early) and the 358.

If I happen to be sitting in a shelter belt during that whitetail rut hunt, I may just choose the 358.

I believe it was in the NAHC series of books probably in the ‘80’s that there was one with different essays by different gun writers on different cartridges. I remember the 358 being written up by Clay Harvey whose shenanigans later came to light here I believe.

Anyway, the 358 Win always intrigued me a little and Clay Harvey mildly amused me with his pontifical style and his use of the word “ambient”.

Great caliber...

Wanted the caliber for a while just haven't found the right rifle yet.

Went and shot mine this morning with RCBS 200gr GC powder coated, 1.67g (17.1 gr) AA5744.


I'm rusty so the best were about 2" 3 shot 100yd groups after too much coffee and a walk through the blowdowns to the range.

Time to cast some more of these for the 358, 357max, and 35 Remington. I thik I will try them soft this time instead of adding hard shot for theAs and quenching after baking powder coat.

You go turkey hunting this morning?

I have seen nothing .400 or Buckhammer in my neighborhood. I think I would prefer the Buckhammer but the .400 only takes a barrel change to convert your AR. There are tons of .350's in my area now. It's going to be tough dislodging them to go to the Buckhammer or the .400.

kwg

My favorite Marlin. Now that I got new glasses I will go see if I can see the sights again next.

enjoy hunting with the .356 & .358 Winchesters.

I like the 200 grain RCBS bullet in the Winchester's. Its fits like it was designed for the the Big Bore Model 94.

As to why the .358 Win Hester cartridge failed in the market place my Father and three Hunting Uncles all thought it was because the rifles were stocked poorly and recoil was noticable.

I was always told to Hunt Close. As a young man everyone I knew hunted as close as they could - this was New Mexico in th 1960's. My Father often said that modern hunters had trouble seeing game in the brush and shadows of the forest.


Many good gun writers stumped for the .358 Winchester including Francis Sell, Ken and Edmund Waters, R. Chatworth-Taylor and Rick Jamison. Jack O'Connor wrote good words on page 156 of The Hunting Rifle. 

All my life I have read and listened to a lot of talk about shooting at long range. We are able to set up for long shots but they dont give the same thrill of getting in close.

O'Connor wrote about long shots  on page 261 of The Hunting Rifle.

I don't care one way or the other how far you shoot. The desire for shots over 200 yards certainly had a bit to do with the lack of popularity.


Austrailian gunwriter Nick Harvey died recently. Nick had a gift for communicating.  I enjoyed reading his articles.

Here is a pretty fair Nick Harvey quote:

I started my .358 journey with a BLR but gladly dumped it in favor of a Savage 99. The 99 has taken many deer with both factory WW Silvertips and my handloads. I never felt the need for 250 grain bullets for whitetails, I've only had one 200 grain fail to exit. A couple years ago I turned a rusty M70 .243 into a "proper" deer rifle with the help of JES. I've only hunted it once and put a 200 grain Hornady through an 8pt ghosting through the tamaracks.

I enjoyed all the posts. Mine is a Ruger M77 Carbine. I have yet to take a deer with it. I got 68 pieces of fired brass Friday at my local shop for it. Last week I got some 35 Rem fired brass from the same shop. The 358 win is an awesome cartridge!!!

Never saw a need for one, until I shot one that had been owned by Ken Howell down at the New Mexico/ Arizona Campfire gatherings. Wish I'd know about one of those say 40 years ago.

I like a 30/30, and its a big step up from a 30/30 without much recoil. I thought the one that had belonged to Ken Howell, recoiled like a 243.

If I was a younger guy, I'd have one in a model 70 Featherweight... even if I had to rebarrel the rifle to have a 358.

That sure is one useful little round.

I always thought I’d have JES rebore a SA 700 into 338 Fed. The more I read about the 358 , I’m leaning that way now.

I always wondered why the 358 was a short range cartridge but the 308 was a sniper's cartridge ? ¿ ?

Where would someone get a hat like that?

i didn't have anything that shot .357-.358" calibers, now i do. JES Reboring did a wonderful job on my Winchester m94 in 35/30-30. it shoots 200gr RCBS FN GC with 2400/tuft Dacron that goes 1726fps, it's great for close cover deer.

then i bought a 10" Contender barrel in 357 Herrett. it is still sitting there in my safe, i have to blood the 30 Herrett (10" barrel) a couple of times, before the 357 Herrett comes out.

I have a JES .35 bore rifle, and you can use any .357 handgun bullet as well as .35 rifle bullets if you roll your own. You just have to slow down the handgun bullets.

Thanks, brother. That’s what I’ve gathered.

Shaw seems to be the least expensive way to have a bolt action 358 WIN built

Some serious coin for curiosity.

I know that you are new here. We do have a rifle sub-forum for rifle discussions.

Indeed. I think the more practical route by far is a JES rebore. Been awhile since I last checked, but my recollection is that Savage 99's weren't cheap even in popular chamberings.

Love em, got 3 of em. Got a dandy RAR I’d part with if anyone is lookin. Shoot me a message 👊🏻

Coton, it's true that guys often have talked about rifles and cartridges when sitting around the campfire, and still do. But Mr.Barnard seems to be trying to clue you in on the more recent metamorphosis - focus on fat girls, bikers in spandex and LEOs.

Fear not Eggy is a poser. Speaks w/o thinking. Generally is on the wrong side of every topic, and if truth be known , is a shut in internet loser, and the only reason he hasn't already put a gun in his mouth is because he doesn't own one, either because he can't pass a BGC, or is to ignorant to rent one at a range.

Yep! Started using what were then E.R. Shaw barrels in the late 1980s, which while pretty rough inside usually grouped OK. But they completely retooled around 2000, and since then my experience is they're equal to Douglas barrels--and the barrel-fitting they offer is a bargain. The last one I got was a 6mm-06 medium-weight on a 700, and Shaw did what's called "blue-printing" on the action. It groups very well....

Seems like you have mentioned that rifle before.


In an article? Maybe about several 6.5's?

Funny anecdote:

The .358 Win in a REM Model 7 is JeffO’s most productive deer slayer.

Lots of pics posted on the fire with that combo.

BMT

Nice

Was not a major problem with the 41 mag was that as designed, it’s power level was much closer to the power level of the 44 mag than the power level of the 357 mag? The execution of the design was not what the law enforcement community expected or wanted. They wanted a cartridge that exactly split the difference in power and caliber between the 357 and the 44. The 41 was too powerful for LEO work. IIRC, the lead bullet load was closer to what they wanted, but the jacketed bullet load was too much.

Another example of the clients needs being ignored by the designers and the company producing a different product.

It was literally designed to fail.

Jim

Actually, my fingers screwed up. It's a 6mm-06, not a 6.5-06--though did have a Shaw "custom" rifle on a Savage action in 6.5-06 years ago--which was also very accurate, as in 3" 3-shot groups at 600 yards. I wrote it up for the defunct Varmint Hunter magazine, comparing it to an identical rifle except for chambering owned by the editor, John Anderson, who passed away around a decade or so.

John

That seems plenty accurate!

Wherever your skin cancer doctor tells you to get one.

35s have never really been popular in the US with the exception of NE hunters and their lever 35 Remingtons, bolt actions aren't as popular with big woods hunters either. I do like the 35, had a really nice 350 Rem mag build on a SA Model 70, FWT, 24" stainless barrel. Another great rifle that sat in my safe and was rarely used, sold to a Camfire member who intended to use it for elk, hope he had success with it!

No. Season doesn't open until 4-16, tomorrow.
Did go to my hunting area though.
Got about 100 feet from the vehicle and had to turn back.
A little flustered, but I'm going to try again later.
Thanks for asking.

Never heard that, but it's almost a standard Remington SOP.
The .244 Rem, the 6.8mm Rem SPC, the 8mm Rem Mag and the .41 Rem Mag.
I'm not a LEO, so never used my .41 RM as anything more that to hunt with. Filled all my needs for that.

Probably hard to top the 358win for use as an cast and modern bullet tosser. Thought seriously over time about owning an 358 win but reminded myself that I've already got 4 of the model 71 348winchester rifles and 348 Ackley. Those are basically the same just in another form.

You know, you have a legit point. We should get rid of sub forums altogether since anything goes around the campfire.

I don't know about any legit in that regard, but at times a perusal of this place can be be boggling. And, the difference between the topics/chatter on here vs. the talk we experience sitting around the fire at our SW "get to-gethers" is striking. You should try that - you would be welcomed.

Ive been hunting with my Ruger Hawkeye for over ten years and love it. I wouldn’t think twice about shooting it at 300 yards. People refer to it as a woods rifle and that is a bad title for a caliber these days. Everyone wants a rifle to shoot a thousand yards but probably won’t get close to that. It’s a good caliber that leaves a blood trail if needed and doesn’t tear up a bunch meat. I like it.

I have found the 358 Win easy to load for. It gets the job done without any fuss. It's a humble cartridge that works on bears at 265yds and beyond.

Got it in a righty and a lefty?


Nice.

A switch-hitting M-70 !!!