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[b]Maine Lawmakers Seek To Trample On Rights Ban High-Fence Hunting
February 17, 2009

Americans are guaranteed under the United States Constitution to be able to work hard and make a living. As this country spirals deeper and deeper into a form of European-style socialism, individual rights, including the right to prosper, are being yanked out from under American citizens for no good reason.

The state of Maine has become the target of animal rights groups for years. Maine, once a staunchly independent state, continues to morph into a land very attractive to secular progressives bent on the destruction of the liberties fought and died for in this country.

Maine has several deer, elk and bison ranches scattered across the state. A handful of those ranches offer anyone who has the interest, a chance to shoot one of these critters. This action has been dubbed the name of high-fence hunting. Once again a group of Maine lawmakers has put together a bill proposal that would repeal Chapter 202-A of Maine law, effectively banning the shooting of any of these animals on private land.


More.............

What a warm and fuzzy feelings ..............................


126 members looked at my topic and not one comment.....You guys must be secure that the antis won't tread on your rights. The thing is they are after us all and will look to the most controversial first. As they gain support it becomes easier to ban all kinds of hunting and trapping opportunity's.


Trust me when I say, they have a far bigger agenda than just putting a few hunt preserves out of business!

Mark, if I had the bones, I would be doing it. See if the site owner over at Michigan Sportsmans Forum will let you post this up over there. His name is Steve. You might get some hits from there. Les

You wanted comments, so here you go - what you do isn't hunting by a long shot, it's farming. I have no problem with farming, but call it what it is. The reason people aren't jumping to your defense it that a lot of hunters don't like to be lumped in with guys that fence in a hundred acres and call it a hunting preserve. It's bad for the sport and gives the anti's a huge bullseye to go after.

HS!

jds, thats an ass thing to say, and with the Acreage that he has it is hunting, pathetic. Lets not go down this road again. It is his way of earning a living, don't be a dick! Personally I really think most of you guys that bash hunts like this are just pissy cause you can't afford it! Les

I figured it would not take long for some pompous dip scheit to chime in with the "it ain't hunting (in MY opinion) so yeah, ban it."

Now what wil be said by jds when they want to ban HIS favorite pass time?

I agree Les, I could never travel to the far ends of the world to hunt the critters he has to offer, he's made it possible for the average Joe to be able to shoot an exotic animal he would never otherwise be able to. its not like they are saying its the only way to hunt, so why are you? ever want to shoot a buffalo? try doing it without a ranch, not easy (unless you live by denver, then shoot all you want).
don't discard support for our sport because its not the way you do it. we all need to support each other. no wonder we lost in november with that attitude

I see you believe the propaganda fed to you by the antis........... They must be doing something right when fellow hunters condemn the "harvesting" of animals that were raised for the freezer. Do you think it's more ethical to capture this stressed animal and ship it to a slaughter house.....or.....dispatch the animal as it walks a game trail, unaware of it's fate.

Side with them if you like , you will be next.

Before you know it, they won't allow you to shoot cows on your own pasture, either.

Good luck to you hindsite. You have a battle on your hands for sure.

Thank you for your input.

I certainly don't expect full support but this issue will likely impact all hunters in the future. They picked Maine to start with this year because we have the fewest preserves of any state that allows them. They believe a win in Maine will give them the clout to attack states with larger number of preserves. We have successfully fought and beat these fanatics three times, so we have some experience.

What they have is a war chest of money this time, we don't!


So post away, good or bad..........................It's a topic about a bill that could effect us all in a negative way if it pass's!

Real hunting depends on HOW your hunt, not whether there is a fence around 300 acres or 3,000, or 30,000 acres.

The original red stag and wild boar from Europe were stocked in a 17,000 acres of fenced mountain land outside Asheville, NC in the 1880s. Do you think hunting them on foot, or even with dogs (not against the fence) would be unsporting? I don't think so.

I see a lot of hunting styles on TV on unfenced, wide-open land that I would not get any enjoyment from, like most of the treestand hunting, or having some guide take me to a 350 B&C elk on a 10,000 acre ranch, for $10,000, then back in the truck and lodge, and private jet back to the big city. No, thank you!

Let's say you go on a cull hunt in a small fenced area, a few hundred acres, and have to not shoot the big ones, nor the young ones, but only a few old or inferior bull deer? And you hunt on the ground, not over a food plot. Better yet, no scopes, or maybe a muzzleloader. How about archery, and maybe no compound bows with sights? Tell me at what point it would be too easy for you.

I'm as anti - anti-hunting as you can get. I have absolutely no problem with you, or anyone that wishes to come to your farm, harvesting your farm animals any way you see fit. Same goes for the pigs and cattle on the farms here, all around me, the farmers have the right to do with them as they please. I also have no problem with how you choose to earn a living. Just don't lump it in under the hunting banner.

Funny that your idea of the members here fighting the bill and those behind it is to put some money in your pocket.

Also seems ironic somehow that the Photo Hunts are advertised so prominently, given the context of the thread.

gotta agree that "game farm (preserve?) shooting" is a better fit than game farm hunting. to each his own though.

Mark, I really feel for you. The great State of Maine must feel like an island right now.

Whiner! ... I see enough panhandlers driving down the road without having to see them on this forum. Folks aren't obligated to respond just because you want them to. Grow up.

Not all hunters and shooters agree with high-fenced operations. It's a tired argument of those who support it to say "fall in line" to those who don't, or to accuse them of helping anti-hunters if they don't support high-fencing. BS!

Some people just don't get the Anti's agenda. They pick on the easy targets first, and will work there way up the hunting food chain, so to speak.

High fence hunting might not be your cup of tea. Hunting with no fences over deer feeders might not be for you. Shooting from vehicles in Africa might not be your idea of sporting. Running deer with dogs in Macintosh, Alabama or bongo in the Sanga River basin in Cameroon might not be your thing. Sitting in a cold wind tree stand over a buck scrape might not be fair chase enough for you.

Nonetheless, as a hunter you should stand with people like Mark who have put their money, time, and sweat into a hunting enterprise. Yes, you could call it farming. You could also call ALL hunting the wanton slaughter of poor defenseless creatures with high powered weapons that often leave them wounded to suffer a horrifying death. Where do you want to draw the line on semantics?

Mark provides a unique hunting opportunity that is good for some, but not attractive to others. The high fence allows herd management, and will produce better stags. No different from a big deer lease that has an 8 point rule or has a doe quote. It is just more sophisticated. The high fence keeps poachers out. I have a 7 year old boy. This might be a place that is great to introduce him to hunting. As a suburbinite, I have no land of my own to hunt. Why not take my boy to a place such as Hindsight?

Instead of climbing on this guy's back, you should be climbing on his band wagon. Each time the Anti's succeed, the are embolden to attack hunting and guns rights more. Their agenda is the total elimination of each. Want good conservation? Shoot one, breed two. Cut down a tree, plant two. That's what at work here.

hatari, the guys that are harping on this don't get it, it is idiots like them that caused us to get Obammy for Chancellor. They do not understand banded together is much stronger that spread apart. I actually feel sorry for them. Les

So if we don't book a hunt upon your request it's because we're sitting on our azzes when it comes to supporting hunting?? Nice....thanks for your confidence.

I whole heartedly agree. We must quit bitching about others and join together against those who would oppress us.

Jim

I believe a man has a right to make his money any legal way he chooses. High fence hunting is legal in Maine and should be legal anywhere in the union. It's more of a question of freedom than anything else in my opinion, and I am fully in favor of freedom. I wish you well, sir.

Someone gets it...

No, I think Mark's initial reaction was one of surprise that this Legislative Initiative didn't elicit outrage on the bold infringement of hunting rights. I'll cut him some slack for that 126 remark. It's his livelihood that has a political target on it's back. Some topics do't lend themselves to comment easily.

+1

Hey..Doesnt the meat taste the same whether it comes from a fenced in yard or one of my beloved mountain ranges of Colorado?

What's that got to do with the price of rice in China?

obviously not, he's not saying book a hunt or I'll go under. he's bringing to light legislation that puts the liberal foot in our door to go after more rights. you sit back and whine all you want about how you don't think its hunting or whatever, but you're sounding like a kid whining and kicking and you don't even have a dog in this fight. join the liberals if you're so far against it. maybe you should reread the whole thread and get a better understanding.

Do you hear the chipping sound? Its the anti's chipping away at OUR rights. Like high fence? dont like high fence? Like Black Rifles? don't like them? Basically the same thing isn't it. The antis will take what they can and it is our mission to not let them. Rest assured they will take it all if they can one piece at a time, hunting and firearms. If we don't stop arguing like a pack of dogs we will all surely loose in the end. Best of luck Mark. Bear

It's not the high fence hunting itself that bugs me. It's the dipsticks who think I'm supposed to be impressed that they shot a 180 class buck on a feedlot somewhere without wetting themselves.

wasn't going to book a hunt before this, and unfortunately while I sympathize with Mark on this issue, I can't see the stupidity of legislators making me do something I wasn't going to do anyway.

they did that once, I bought an AR-15, finally got rid of it.


wishing you the best in your efforts to preserve your livelihood Mark, I truly do. but moral support is about all I can offer you.

good luck

It's funny how a lot of western states that don't allow high fence hunting do so because hunters didn't want the operations there, but if we don't jump on Mark's bandwagon we're PETA loving, tree-hugging, anti-hunters? Give me a break.

While we're on the subject, can we stop the endless bumping of Hindsite adds to the top in the classifieds by Mark trying to sell us on what a great hunting experiences he's offering?

Yeah, he basically is in big bold letters...

I do believe that we should all recognize that whether or not we, individually, like or dislike high fence the ultimate objective of those who wish to ban this form of taking game animals is to ban all hunting.
To side with them strengthen them period.
I wish you folks well in your battle Mark.


BCR

I donno we have elk ranches near here where for a few bucks you can go shoot a cow. If you want to pay enough you can shoot a trophy bull. I have been tempted to buy a cow at times for the meat as it could be cheaper sometimes than beef at the market if I process it myself.

Then again, I am not so sure that in the long run fenced animal shooting is good for hunting or hunters rights.

This ISN"T hunting, more like harvesting a domestic animal.

Then again it is no doubt used by PETA and anithunting/gun organizations to damage our hunting gun rights any way they can . so this is a hard one for sure.

Amen. Can anyone say Chronic Wasting Disease?

You read much into what I wrote. I made 3 simple observations in two posts. I didn't pass any judgement on his type of hunting. I didn't say I was against it. A kid whining and kicking? If any re-reading is necessary, I believe the burden is on you, considering your comments to me are foolish in light of what I posted...and what Nebraska posted as well.

I understand the divide/conquer issue. I also understand what it's like to have your business targeted by BS regulations that will shut down or severely limit your operations. I can sympathize.

A classic Lib tactic is to twist people's words and refute arguments the other party didn't make or falsely suggest they said things which they didn't. You seem to have that well in hand...

Yes, someone does get it!

Chronic Wasting Disease?
_____________________________

CWD is just as prevalent, if not moreso,on the free range.

Good luck, Mark. While it's not something I'd really want to do, by God it's your land and you should be able to do it.

Wasn't there something similar happening in NY lately?

The antis have already lumped us together , whether you like it or not


Mike

It wasn't before the high fence operations. I believe there's evidence that it did exist in the wild, but it didn't became the major problem it is today before the high fence operations became so popular.

Wow, do tell, as I am pretty sure Colorado has one of the Highest rates of CWD and we haven't by my recollection allowed High Fence hunting. Please, I would like to see your scientific data to back it up, pretty sure there is not a lot of CWD down in Texas and there are a boatload of High Fence ranches there.

The Virginias have CWD and it certainly didn't originate from High Fence operations.

Hindsite, good luck with your fight.

It's not hunting, so as a hunter I feel no need to defend it.

Re-name it non-traditional ranching and call it a "harvest" instead of advertising it as a "hunt" and I'll stand behind you 100% because it will then be a landowner/land use issue I can defend.

Of course it'll be harder to sell as a harvest instead of a hunt or you'd all have made that change already.

Michigan just got its first hit on CWD, and am pretty sure they have quite a few high fences areas. They also banned baiting throughout the Lower Peninsula because of it. Les

I have always considered �hunting� to be a secondary benefit to what I was actually doing in the field. I don�t like being called just a �hunter�

The purpose is many fold. My license fee helps buy land, fund wildlife projects. My participation helps Fish and Game manage wildlife.

The equipment and goods I purchase helps out the economy.

The object of hunting is to manage lands and manage species. Hunting doesn�t exist simply for my enjoyment. It has a purpose and a function.

If Marks land were closed to hunting would the land be sold? Taxes in Maine are very high. Not sure how condos would look but I�m pretty sure woods beats suburbia any day.

I believe Maine has slipped deeper and deeper to the left so make no mistake that anti-hunting is behind this bill. Didn�t Maine go after using dogs to hunt bear??

The purpose of hunting bear is to control populations and again manage the land they are on. If it takes dogs and or baiting to effectively manage bear populations then so be it.

The minute you try to play �ethics� with the antis you might as well put a gun to your own head.

If fenced in areas are managed to protect land that would be otherwise lost, manage a species of animal, provide meat for the table, etc, then so be it.

Maybe we should manage cows in a more sporting manner instead of fencing them then bring them up a gate to be slaughtered at close range. Maybe we should give them a running start..you know..give them a sporting chance.

Me, I don�t care how I kill em and will hardly feel guilty when slicing into my venison chops this evening.

It could be that alot of members are at work and havent had a chance yet.

I wish you the best. It's your land and you can do what you want as far as I'm concerned. What can we do to help apart from booking a hunt?

There's research out there and you can look it up just as easily as I can. We both know it's pretty easy to make statistics say anything you want them to say, so there's no use posting them back and forth all day.

Contrary to what Stick says, Field & Stream do run the occasional good article.
High Fence

Ya Les, CWD is a problem for Elk ranchers in CO.

The ranchers that we hunt with has a friend who is a lawyer for the state of Colorado. Legal Dick represents the state of CO in lawsuits against ranchers, he's told us of more than one case where ranchers were swapping a sick bull that was used for mating purposes.

The first case of CWD in Michigan occured at a high fence facility, Bovine TB also has been an issue with high fence operations.

Amen Brother Dave ... classical knee-jerk reactionists. They classify any with a dissenting opinion. Then they extrapolate and apply, without any justification, a whole other set of assumed opinions on the dissenter. I.E., one stated opinion, and they think they've got you all figured out. And naturally, these knee-jerkers also assume they have divine vision and intelligence the likes of which us poor dissenters could only hope to one day achieve.

Okay, your right, I remember that, but How Long has Deer Forest over on the western side of the sate been open without CWD. It had to come from somewhere, I don't think it is something that just springs up AJ. CWD is transmitted thru the saliva of cervids, not where Bovine TB is transmitted the same way. They could always do like ranchers and farmers do, slaughter off the the herd and start from scratch. Les

I find true *canned hunts* despicable, and believe I should be able to vote on that matter with my $$$. I don't need any state to tell me how to vote. I foster high-fence no ill will, but I won't spend my hard earned dollar there either. YES, I see the slippery slope at play. I'd love to tell the legislators in the State of Maine to go stick their anatomy where it's impossible to place it. Let the sportsmen and trophy buyers work it out with greenbacks. Some pigs are more equal than others.

No one knows how long the pions that cause CWD will survive in the soil so the concept of killin the heard and starting over won't work. The old guidelines for Bovine TB was to kill the deer herd, never allow the land to be used as a deer farm again. I believe that process is still in place.

They haven't enforced it as of yet, last I knew that game farm in Michigan was still in operation, they just put that one deer down. Les

In 2000, the people of the State of Montana voted against hunting farmed elk, one can raise elk but it is against the law to allow hunting. All land is subject to police power which comes from the voter referendums or legislative actions. An example is the farming of marijuana, it is against the law to grow marijuana on your own land.

I am against hunting farmed animals and if all hunters would think this way are perception with non hunters would improve. Shooting an animal is an enclosure is not hunting and it should not be called hunting nor should the shooter be called a hunter. A hunter is person who pursues high fence animals is dishonest with himself.

Those are your thoughts, I have never hunted High Fence, but I have no problems with those that do, it's just their way, and sometimes for folks that are wheelchair bound it is the only way, so I suppose that the guy in the wheelchair isn't a hunter either. Sorry, can't agree. Les

So, are you against island hunting as well?? You really sound like a liberal Democrap. I think you should wake up and smell the coffee. They're after you, your gun rights, AND your hunting license.

Oh but LBK, the critters on the island can just swim off. Not a barb at you, but that will be one of the arguments that you hear.

You guys that are saying High Fence isn't hunting, boy, by your definition of hunting, I sure hope you don't sit anywhere near an alfalfa field in season, as thats just a giant food plot.

I have never hunted at Marks and have only hunted or shot or whatever you want to call in a fenced area once, and it wasn't a high fence. Whatever you want to call it, it was work and not a gimme by a long shot. I enjoyed the experience and would do it again.

I can't get to Maine but good luck!

Mark Luce, I can offer only moral support. That I do.
As a fellow hunter, as a fellow professional.

I do that to all americans by being a member of NRA - for NRA fights to uphold the second ammendment that acknowledges the right of all americans to keep and bear arms. Some lost sight of the value of this right. Still, NRA fights, for these too.
I was born and I live in socialist europe.

Put aside petty differences. Unite once more. Hunters, gunowners, people who understand the difference between "freedom" and "liberty". Unite and uphold "liberty".

We are free in Europe, but could stand some liberation.
Let it not come so far in the US of A.

Later, when all that is done, lets get back to nit picking about fenced / non fenced, black or wood.

Just a thought. I do what I can from here.

Aside from the all the bickering and the fact that there is money tied up in this arguement, I simply don't want to see any more regulation on anything having to do with hunting. In the same way, I'll likely never own an AK or SKS rifle, but I don't want to hear that I can't.

I agree, Les. Everyone draws the 'sportsmanship' line in a different place. The same guys that rant against high-fence hunts don't give a second thought to guided hunts, special seasons in parks, or even charter boat fishing. Stick bow hunters think the compound guys are gay.

If there's a biological reason in Maine that justifies the end of high-fence hunting then so be it. "Just because" some azz clown doesn't like it isn't good enough.

Agreed

You couldn't be farther from the truth, but thanks for playing.

I never said I was against shooting critters, behind a fence or not. I think I have the right to shoot my dog, my cat, my horse, my pig, my angus, or my pet deer if I'm of a mind to. But I'll never call any of that hunting. If I want to sell you an angus, let you come shoot it and butcher it on the ground, I think that's perfectly within my rights. Same with what Mark's doing - he can charge people to come collect meat from his farms critters all he wants -, but call it farming like it is and not hunting. Don't lump the two together and don't pretend he's fighting for hunting rights.

Whether one agrees with high fence hunting or not, I don't agree with lawmakers telling folks what they can and cannot do on their own private land. Mark, not sure if there is anything I could do to help but, if there is I'd be glad to do so.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall stance, but there's always money tied up in the argument.

Tell me how game management in TN isn't like farming.

I apologize for the blurb about hunting with us. I realize that support comes in all forms. Thanks go's out to those that do.

Tell me how it is? There's not any high fences anywhere where I hunt. There are some high fences operations out in East TN that have hogs and whatnot, but I certainly didn't put them there or agree with them.

Do you use food plots to lure game in, if so, your just as wrong as High fence by your definition of a hunter.

NO, and I hunt public land or private land that the general public can access through individual state gov't programs.

Hindsite,

Just out of curiousity, how big is the fenced area the hunted deer are confined too?

Regards,

Peter

Game management is farming. The state of TN trying to produce the best 'crop' it can. The implements are buck and antlerless tags, management areas, population and harvest goals, and the revenue from taxpayers and licenses.

Regardless what some peoples definition of hunting is people like Mark are running a business and that is free enterprise...I fully support his right to do so and so should all hunters. The anti's are just eating the whale one bite at a time and in attacking these business owners in Maine they are just taking the easiest bite they can...If this passes what will they put their sights on next?

Don't lump the two together and don't pretend he's fighting for hunting rights. [/quote]

Even if you don't define what Mark does as hunting that IS what this is all about...That and running a legit business...but to the anti's it's ALL about hunting and OUR freedom to do so...

This is a tough topic for me too because I hate fenced hunts and I knew eventauly we would be called to support them under the name of hunting. If they would use the term farming and not hunting it would make more sense. I hate PETA and I know what they are going to try to do to devide us and this is another example. I agree you should be able to do what ever you want to do with your land and if you can get some people to pay you to shoot a farm animal so be it but. I am torn because as a hunter I have to support your business because it is thrown in the hunters we need to stand together or we lose devided catagory. I would love to lose the canned hunts but I hate to give in into PETA and HUSA. I wish you luck and hope that you win because your right this will become the test ground and after they win this they will go after bowhunters. But to be honest is leaves a bad taste in my mouth where do we send comments?

Nope, no food plots and no feeders. Even those don't equate to high fences.

Just to be clear again, I fully support Mark's right to do whatever he wants on his land. It's the lumping it under the hunting banner (and using the plea to drum up business) that I have a problem with.

I agree with you. We have enough govt regulation in our lives. They are getting worse than King George III.

Jim

100%..................one bite at a time....It's that simple!

The loss of our rights are like the Domino Principal. One little one falls, then another, then another, then another. Before long there are none left standing. If we don't stand together and be heard then slowly but surely our rights will be eroded into nothing and we can only blame ourselves. Divide and conquer. That's what they are (and we are allowing) doing.

Jim

Much appreciated.....You can start by letting these fanatics at Maine Friends of Animals know how you feel. There site is jammed packed with propaganda. http://www.mfoa.net/legislation_campaigns.html


If anyone is interested I can supply contact info regarding the State Reps. that sponsored the bill.

Who gets to define hunting?

I've got friends (hunters) that don't think that hunting bear over bait is "hunting". To them, it's like shooting ducks in barrel. They're wrong, but you're never going to convince them.

I know of hunters who disagree with running bear with hounds. It's too easy (yeah, let's see some of them follow a pack). They're wrong, but you're never going to convince them.

Traditional blackpowder vs. in-line, recurve vs. compound bow, yadda yadda yadda. You and I shouldn't define hunting for someone else. Take a weapon (bow, spear, knife, gun, whatever) and get out into the woods.

I didn't even look at the area where the 24 Hr. hog hunt is happening. I went to the website long enough to get contact info. I'm going because I want to hunt with a bunch of good guys.

Rant off, sorry. I just think we need to stick together or we're all [bleep] enventually.

George

Marc,

You seem to have missed my earlier question:

"Just out of curiousity, how big is the fenced area the hunted deer are confined too?"

I did have a quick look around your web site, but could see any information pertaining to the size of the fenced hunting area?

Regards,

Peter

Just in case you missed it the first time jds

Mike

I have several thoughts on this. First of all, I have not been in favor of most kinds of canned hunts. I don't like Texas hunting either. That is where you must buy into a lease and hunt out of stands. But I have been to Texas and know that if you are going to hunt that is about the only way it is going to happen. It works there so I cannot condemn it just because it isn't the way I hunt.

I have seen canned hunts that are not hunts. A man I know spent a lot to shoot a buffalo in a small corral. That is not hunting but is is no different than what we do when we kill our spring lambs.

There are canned hunts that require you to actually hunt. I do not have a problem with this kind of hunting. Having interacted here at the campfire with Mark for a couple of years leads be to believe he is the kind of man that would have nothing to do with the corralled type of hunt. He is an upstanding man and an outdoorsmen. I have no problem supporting what he does. It works for where he lives just like the Texas hunters have a system that works for where they live. No better than my kind of hunting, no worse, just different. If you look at the way some big Oregon ranches sell their land owners preference tags there is darned little difference at all.

Finally, I stand with him in the battle to stop the crumbling of out rights to hunt at all. One piece at a time the antis are taking away our rights. If we give up willingly then we will loose all.


Wish you well in your fight Mark. Would love to take one of tour photo hunts but time and distance make that possibility look a mite small.

Peter,

Sorry ,I missed it the first time. Our heavily wooded preserve is 100 acres.

+1 for asking again. It has no bearing on the principal component of this issue, yet is interesting in its own right.

Les, wasn't it you that jumped my a$$ for having no idea how big an area we were talking about?

A hundred acre wood under a high fence ain't hunting any way you slice it and doesn't belong under the hunting rights bandwagon.

Actually 100acres is a decent size, hell my Dad has 40 acres that we hunt, mind you it's not fenced, but there are a lot fo folks with 10 acres in michigan that plant food plots ad then they hunt over it. Seems to be the same thing in my book. It's all hunting if you have to go find it after you shoot it, much different than walking up to a bull or hog with a bang stick. But hey, thats just my opinion, I look at this topic just like I do the Black Rifles versus Traditional Rifles. Too much infighting, we need to be concerned with the Anti's be they anti hunting or anti gun and quit raking fellow sportsman over the coals. Easier to defeat a split force than one that has a solid front. Les

already answered...

The difference with your dad's 40 acres is that the game can leave. Once you get to the size of a game animals typical home range, say 600-1000 acres for a whitetail, then the high fence aurgument becomes a grey area. At 100 acres it most certianly is not. Anybody know what a wild red stag's typical home range size is?

30 to 40 Miles

Kinda put's things in perspective, don't it?

We do gps - telemetry on red deer north east of Berlin.
Home range size of male red deer free ranging in our data:

15000 acres to 25000 acres

Always with individual and seasonal variance.

I don't think much of high fence hunting farms and think even less of hunters who use them but that all pails in comparison to the idea that one man can tell another what they can or cannot do.

Nuff said in my book...

I don't see it as chipping away at the rights of hunters just as I don't see banning late term abortions as an effort or strategy to ban abortion all together. Though it might be for some.

Fencing-in a few hundred acres is the equivalent to shooting fish in a barrel. No sympathy from me. In fact, I see this sort of practice as something that fuels the anti gun/hunting fire. Never heard it referred to as "farming", but that's a pretty good analogy for me. I see high fence hunting and those that participate in it as weak links to the very sensible hunting rights that I have.

Commence with the insults.

No, because the criticism directed toward this guy is solely because his operation isn't big enough, or the operation pure enought to suit your personal tastes.

You can't defend the indefensible. Shooting red stag on 100 acres is not defensible under the hunting banner.

Again, if that how he wants to use his land, fine by me, but it's not a hunting rights issue.

What..Gringo.. you buy your rice from China! bet it was grown in a high fenced area!

Well, here's my .02 worth. I do not like Mark's operation or any H F operation. That being said I can and do see a place for them.I can see a chance for a handicapped person getting a chance to hunt/shoot a game animal that may not be able to on public land.

I would support Mark as a business man,gun owner and hunter, as the rest of us must do if we what to save what we have of gun and hunting rights

+1

Old Center Church,

1) I support the moral unity of hunters, shooter and everyone that knows liberty from freedom.

2) I give data, when applicable to base discussion in facts.

3) I do not insult.

4) I respect the responsibility that comes with liberty, not to exercise ones persuit of happiness to infringe others.

I answer to you, as you answered my post with the bottom line " Commence with the insults", to witch I take exemption.

Just because your post was the last in line when I used the "Quick Reply" box at the bottom doesn't make my comments directed at you!

1. As do I.

2. As do I.

3. I don't either.

4. As do I.

OK. My mistake. Believe it or not, I have a habit of direct replys. Never figured, somebody might not.

It's legal to farm and ranch (i.e., raise animals to eat). It's legal to run a feed lot. It's legal to hunt (within the game regulations). It's legal to shoot animals raised for food (at least in most locales). As long as we keep all those things legal, it seems to me that Hindsite should be able to continue with his animal harvesting operation in a legal manner. May not be the way I spend my precious vacation days, but others seem to like it, and it's legal as long as he follows the regulations, so I'm not going to bash it at this point.

I didn't have anyone that I wanted to directly reply to. My reply was a general one pertaining to the subject matter.

jds44,

It's obvious that you have never attempted to spot and stalk an animal as elusive as a trophy sized red stag on 100 acres of heavily wooded land in Maine.

If you had, you'd probably realize how utterly stupid your remarks sound to those of us that have.

It amazes me how some people think 100 acres is small. If a hunter in our preserve wants a difficult hunt(harvest), try still hunting a herd of animals that is hunted from August to February. They may only have 100 acres to disappear into, but you will do a lot of walking and the stag will likely not be taken!


This is not 100 acres of open land!



You know not my land, you know not my deer,you know not what you speak of........that's clear.



CWD and red deer, do your homework.....There has never been a reported case of CWD in red deer or fallow deer...in the world!

Those are the deer in my preserve.

Is there reason to be concerned, yes and we test for CWD here in Maine just to be on the safe side.

____________________

Some folks have expressed displeasure at our treestand style of hunting,jds!

I'll go out on a limb and say that it has to be EXPONENTIALLY easier than it would be if the animal was allowed to range freely!

You are mistaken.

I bet me an OldCenter together could kill every deer in that preserve in a day and a half...

Now I know I can't take you seriously.

Scott,

The type of hunting you described as "Texas hunting" does occur in Texas, but you are painting with an overly broad brush. There are a wide variety hunting methods used in Texas. Apparently you didn't hunt in West Texas.

Also, I have hunted both in the east and in the west and hope I can clear up a common misconception. When someone hunts from a treestand, the hunting occurred PRIOR to getting up in the stand. If you put your stand where the deer aren't, you aren't going to get a deer, so you have to do your hunting (looking and finding) before you place your stand. Now, just being dropped off at a stand that somebody set up overlooking a feeder is a different story, but there are a lot of people who use tree stands who actually hunt.

As a side note, this idea about what is hunting and what is not is kind of interesting. After reading about hunting African buffalo (e.g., Cape buffalo) on this site for a while, I started getting interested in hunting buffalo on safari in Africa. However, over the course of a couple years, it occurred to me that African buffalo hunting is basically just hunting mean free-range cattle. There are a lot of Brahman cattle that are mean enough and big enough to probably give about the same type of hunt as Cape buffalo if you were to let the Brahman go feral. Hunting cattle, even large and ill-tempered wild ones, has never interested me, so I decided I didn't really need to buy a .375 H&H after all.

I hunt on 140 wooded acres of family land from time to time. That piece of land is surrounded by several other tracts of similar size and larger. I'd say that there is a mass of a little over 1000 acres in the area that are hunted by 3 guys. We see a lot of the same deer. 100 acres is a fishbowl!

If it's not challenge enough use a bow. Gee, I thought you were hunting, anyone can shoot a critter with a gun. Get close enough for a bow shot. Les

LOL!

Exactly what I did when I read your post!

100 acres is to small for a bow. Just courious Kamerad, do you have an interest in this place?

http://savagela.org/

I know what 100 acres looks like and I know what 100 acres that's heavily wooded looks like. I've read cases where they've done similar with whitetail. They didn't get them all, but they got most and a red stag's a bit harder to hide than a whitetail.

Yep, thats mine. I don't make any money on the site, I did it cause the 99 is the BEST lever-action ever produced. The link was put up there for free. I have run the site since about mid 2005, costs me about 30 bucks every 3 months. I do it to help newbies to the 99 identify what models they have. Les

does anyone here support the Gov't telling Hindsite what he can do with his critters on his land?

thats the issue he raised, I doubt anyone of us here supports more BS legislation that tells us what we can and can't do.

it doesn't matter if you agree, or would hunt on his place, thats irrelevant. I would like to shoot a stag one day, it will probably be at his place, I just can't afford it right now. I don't hunt HF areas normally, never have before. I hunt on the ground, stalking my prey in the mountains of colorado, thats real hunting. chasing deer though patches of woods in farm country is like shooting cows in a pasture if you ask me......

actually I don't believe that, just making a point. hunting is different all over, same with fishing. whats the point?

by bickering amongst ourselves we make our groups smaller. by supporting something thats similar to what we do, we make our numbers larger and stronger. I don't know how else to put it.
by picking small topics to make your base on, you limit yourselves. we all need to stick together.

I've hunted elk in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, British Columbia, and Mongolia. I've hunted on private land--with low fences or no fences--but high fence hunting ain't hunting........

Having said that, the real issue is private property rights. Having said THAT, if the Rocky Mountain states are any example, the biggest source of disease is captive wildlife "ranches".

From Whirling Disease to CWD, the biggest pools of disease has been from private "wildlife" ranches--and that affects MY hunting and fishing.


Casey

This internal squabbling, and "mine is bigger than yours" crap among the hunting fraternity is exactly what PETA and the Brady bunch want.

Whether you like "high fence" preserve hunting or not isn't the issue.....the issue is the freedom to hunt as you choose and where you choose on your own land. Obviously, some high fence hunts don't offer fair chase conditions....and you can oppose those by not supporting them. They are bad publicity for the sport.

But if you start throwing one or another sub-group of our sport off the sled, trying to appease the wolves....all you get is well-fed wolves when they come back for your particular sport.

This is a Animal farm for people to shoot animals at, not a hunting "preserve". A Maine License is not even required, much less a tag. Who do you support besides yourself?
All those nice bucks off 100 acres?
Hunting?
Get real!

And you want support from hunters.

You guys with the "Handicapped" crapo, gimmie a break.
At least in this state permits are available to accommodate the handicapped to hunt from vehicles.

Man, tell ya what, lets support the guy that wanted to have you control the gun with a cam on the net, then control the trigger from you PC. They would take care of the critter and send you the meat or mount. Is that hunting too?

This is a game FARM and I could care what they do, killing critters doesn't bother me, even warm fuzzy ones, but it is NOT a hunting experience.
"Guided hunts on 100 acres", FENCED? hogwash!


What a joke to even discuss it as "hunting".

There ya go now blast me, flame away! I am a jerk sometimes but I get enough sometimes too, and this thread has done it.

I see you beat me to it......


Casey

Lemme guess, you don't think AR's should be used for hunting either. Yep, I love folks that bash others because they feel it ain't right. Dude, relax, your gonna have an anyuerism. It ain't your bag, don't bash it, I understand that. This has been my biggest friggin problem. Shoot, I suppose you call Cape Buffalo hunting, hunting too then, hell the PH walks ya up to the critter your gonna shoot, tells ya which one to shoot, bang, you go take your picture. Show me Afican Cape Buffalo hunts where you can spot and stalk on your own. Yes, I do feel that is hunting too though. Les

Casey, you have lived here a helluva lot longer than I, how many Game ranches are here? CWD popped up in the wild, but if I remember correctly it is just a mutated form of mad cow or encephilitis, right.

I agree with you for the most part Steve_NO - we must all hang together or we'll all hang seperately.

But how do you get past this?


If we don't police our own a bit and call BS when we see it, the Anti's will do it for us. Once they do it, their won't be any going back.

Again, I fully support Mark and his right to do what ever he wants with his land. I just don't agree that his fight is a hunting rights fight.

Guess you will never spend the money to go harvest a Cape Buffalo then right? Just going by your definition of Hunting jds. Les

Steve,

Don't confuse them with facts. Their minds are made up. They don't like that type of "Hunting" so it can't possibly be hunting. There is no way their minds can understand the fact that the Govt is going to tell a man what he can and can not do privetly on his land. It also doesn't matter to them that some of our countrymen are going to lose these rights. It doesn't affect them in any way they can see so it must not be a problem. They will not wake up until the govt decides to take away some of their freedoms. Then they will be up in arms. Can't bowhunt on my own land? Can't fish on my own property? Can't have property? The Kings Deer?? We all need to wake up to what is really happening. Our heads have been buried in the sand too long.

Jim

I don't live there and don't know how many there are, but I do know I drove past one on the way from Eagle to Toponas to hunt. They're there.

There are several different issues on this thread--opposing anti-hunters (and it appears there is an assumption this proposed ban in Maine is being promoted by anti-hunters), the ethical question of high fence hunting (and our ethics will effect our hunting "rights"), and disease (which affects the PUBLIC's hunting).

Just for everybody's edification, Wyoming banned wildlife ranching a couple decades ago--at the behest of Wyoming outfitters and Wyoming Game & Fish --who were primarily concerned about disease--with good cause in my opinion.....


Casey

They are game ranches in name only here, they can't fence critters in if I am reading the state laws correctly. Les

I don't recall defining hunting Les, except to say high fence on 100 acres most certainly ain't it.

Cape buffalo in Africa free range is 100% hunting. Importing Cape Buff to Maine and putting them on 100 acres, ain't.

How do you call it free range, hell the PH's know where they are, they guide you right to them, whats the difference? They tell you which on to shoot generally. Thats the only point I am trying to make, seriously.

I know it ain't your bag, but for some folks that is the only thing they can do that qualifies as hunting. Les

The critters weren't crossing the fences I saw. I even saw bulls in a little pen together with their antlers sawed off. This was '01 and '02.

Whirling disease, CWD, and TB was first discovered in Colorado in captive wildlife. More importantly, wildlife ranches and private fish farms are still the biggest source of TB and Whirling Disease--precisely because it is kind've difficult to regulate and enforce against these diseases. Don't get me wrong, those private owners who can afford to be absolutely militant about disease can control/stop it. But that's not generally the case. It becomes pretty difficult for the average guy who decides to get into wildlife ranching to destroy animals--usually because it's dicovered only after the diseases have progressed to the point where most of the other critters on the place have been exposed.

Casey

My understanding of the Game laws out here was to be able to hunt an area, it couldn't be a fenced in enclosure, but hey, i have been known to be wrong before. I do know there are Elk farms here that raise Elk to butcher just like cattle. Whole Foods actually carries some of the meat. Les

What I saw definately could have been an elk farm. Can't say whether it was hunted, but sounds like it wasn't.

I'm curious, if CO law doesn't allow hunting in an enclosure, who pushed for that law - hunters and the game department or anti's? If you're so supportive of fence hunting, are you actively trying to get CO's law overturned?

Cause I like hunting Colorado as it is. Now for critters like Red Deer which are not native to the states, I have no problem with hunting them in an enclosure. They are not a native species and should not be allowed to interact with Native species, all ya gotta do is look at wild russian boars as to why. Les

There are game ranches here in Colorado, Les--I live a few miles from one of the biggest elk/Red Deer ranches in Colorado. He doesn't high fence hunt (high fence hunting of elk doesn't sell real well here in Colorado ), but if you got the bucks, you can walk out and shoot one of his big bulls--they're practically tame, but nonetheless.......

And the owner is one of the militant ones who can afford the absolute best care--but all of his mature bulls walked out through an open gate about 15 years ago. He spent 3 days with two hired helos chasing them back in--and never found three of the bulls.......including a 6-point that was blind in one eye ....

.....three years later, an elk hunter was crossing the state line into Kansas with his elk where a DOW checkpoint was set up. A young hotrod biologist was helping the DWM's that day when he noticed some characteristics of the bull that didn't seem quite right.....it was a 2 year old raghorn. The raghorn came from from my neck of the woods--the DOW confiscated it. Turns out it was half Red Deer--almost certainly sired from one of the escaped Red Deer bulls........

That's just one reason why I have difficulty supporting wildlife ranching--despite the property rights argument--it's a dilemma for me.........

Casey

I do think all Non-Native species hunting MUST be done behind High Fences. That is one thing I do feel very strongly about. Les

LOL, thanks for the humor I enjoyed it.

As for th AR's, never hunted with one but I sure would in a heartbeat. I have a bobcat mount I shot with a Mini 14 kndasorta the same thing.

Comparing hunts in Africa to 100 acres in Maine? Ya'll Serious?

Definitely agree on the exotics behind fences, in fact Iam not so sure exotics should be introduced. They always seem to get loose and can cause real havoc.

Yep.

I'll be dammed if I want an agent of the govt in a 3 piece suit dictating our rights to us(not that the little weasels don't already).

Again, I don't think much of what Hindsight is doing but that's his business and I'll keep my nose out of it just as I want everyone else to keep their nose out of my business.

How do you guareentee they never get out?

Just certain aspects from my eyes. Thats all.

High fences is one of the only methods, depending on how many you plan on keeping you need to ensure you have the land for it too. I think 100 Acres could safely support a small herd. But when you get to the large herds that some folks want to run, ya need at least 1 to 5000 acres, and yep, it should all be fenced in. Les

Like in Casey's example above, gates get left open, trees fall on fences, etc, etc. When those foriegn or genetically altered genes mix with the native wildlife, then it effects all our wildlife.

Ever tried to maintain even a simple 3 strand bard wire fence on a farm? It ain't easy and critters get out.

I have had only limited hunting experience in Texas. I know you folks do not have the advantage of hundreds of thousands of public land I have. So, obviously I am spoiled.

Again, leases and stands over feeders is what is available to those friends I have in Normangee, TX. It works for them is it not for me to condemn.

Then the owners need to be fined, seriously. If you are gonna run an operation like that, you gotta make sure your stuff is in order, and if you screw up, well, ya pay the price, thats what Ranch hands are for, check the fence line, if you are too lazy to do it, then guess your op gets shut down. I agree with you on the Non-natives getting mixed into the herd. Les

Yeah, I know a bit about fencing and what it takes to maintain it. I'm not a city boy if thats where your going.

Les, there was a Elk ranch down by penrose where the guy raised the elk down there, then took them by trailer to a fenced in enclosure, turned them loose, and a guy would go in and kill it.
they found CWD on one of his critters a few years ago and they killed the whole herd because of it.

funny how this thread has drifted around and avoided the issue that started it.

it pisses me off when people say, well I don't agree with that so I'm going to tell everyone what a crock I think it is. do you do it to make yourselves feel good?

Then the DNR did the right thing in that case. They just don't like it cause it isn't their way. Ain't gonna change their minds. Les

PM coming les, I got my Game regs book I'll let you know the season code for our elk hunt this fall

Mark's the one that asked for feedback - he got it.

Maybe I am just to libertarian, but I figure if its not hurting anyone its hard to justify a law against it.

This is a proverbial can of worms that tend to divide us......the brotherhood of outdoorsman....regardless of weapons, methods, tactics, etc.

We will ALL never agree on fair chase, no fence/low fence vs high fence, mechanical vs. fixed broadheads, bow hunting vs. rifle, baiting, feeders, the definition of a trophy, and many more issues that cause us to get emotionally involved and take sides.....but, we must agree to disagree on some of these issues and respect others rights.

This kind of talk simply divides us all as hunters. We get enough grief and backlash from the anti's. No need to divide ourselves and aid in their efforts.

Nobody says you must hunt inside a fence, from a stand or blind, use a feeder, scents, camo, grunt calls, rattle antlers, use a scoped rifle, muzzle loader, bow, spear or rock. Choose whatever legal method floats your boat.

Stalk naked through the mesquite and prickly pear and use your bare hands if that's how you want to hunt. I won't belittle anyone for their chosen legal methods. We should all give each other the same courtesy.

Well said!

pretty much what I said on page one, but you said it more politely.
After that, about 7 pages of bull scheit.

That's right and I appreciate all the input. The good, the bad and the uneducated to the reality of a harvest in our preserve........It's all good!

Thanks for the answer....I'm guessing you must provide quite a bit of extra feed to maintain two herds in a 100 acres of wood land...I went to a deer farming seminar a few years ago that focused on red deer, and it was interesting to hear just how much their metabolism slows over winter as an adaption to dealing with poor food supplies.

I'm not sure if Fallow are the same though, as they originally came from the more arid regions of the world.

The problem is how each of us choose to hunt DOES affect all of our hunting. The general, non-hunting, public determines whether we hunt or not. Hunting ain't a right. And how the general, non-hunting, public perceives the ethics of hunting in any form, will determine if the the public supports hunting. I can't recall ever running across a non-hunter who supports high fence hunting.

Nor have I ever seen any form of hunting survive if the public perceives it as unethical, or unfair.......

Casey

This guy sez you're a pansified-ATV-driving-range-findering-scope-using-long-range-shooting-hunter-wannabe:

I go through $680 worth of high quality second crop balage every 10 days during the winter......That equates to 16-1300 lb. wrapped round bales every 10 days. Balage is hay that is cut and baled the same day. It is then wrapped in white plastic and for the next 30 days it cooks. After 30 days of cooking it can be used and is sweet tender feed. Deer normally pick through hay when they eat it, not so with balage, they wolf it down by the mouthful and leave very little waste.

Figured I'd add, the fact that the animals are imported and not found naturally wild in the USA, makes me feel even more strongly that Mark should be able to do what he pleases with the stags.

Mark, I'm curious, how did you first get your stags?

Of course it is. That's the whole point of the debate. You're allowing the anti's to create the definitions - just like "assault rifle", "sniper rifle", and "need".

How many guns do you need, Casey?

If I understand the process correctly, the "30 day cooking" increases the nutritional value considerably...The deer park not far from me puts out winter turnips and I think sugarbeet for their Fallow, probably choosen for its cheapness and availablity as much as anything else...The owner explained they have to be careful how much they feed though, as the deer can get a kind of bloat which is often fatal..

Owning private property, including livestock is a right. Included in that right is the ability to choose when and if to breed them and when and if to kill them for food or any use at all.

I may never shoot an animal on a game preserve but I'll defend the rights of those who own and operate them just like I do any other property owner.

When they erode the rights of ONE of us they're doing it to ALL of us.

There's a good chance I rank high in the all time shooting game on a preserve rolls - pheasants.

We started with five bred females in 1997 that we purchased from a huge deer farm in Northern Maine. We then brought in a breed stag whose sire's semen came from Yugoslavia. The Northern Maine deer farm I speak of has brought in semen from all around the world. This year they brought in semen from a stag in New Zealand ,that stag scored over 600 SCI.

Actually, Casey is correct. Hunting is not a right, it's a privilege and a tradition. The 2nd Amendment gives us the right to keep and bear any arms that we may choose. There is nothing in the Bill of Rights about hunting, unfortunately.

Just because it's not listed in the Constitution does not mean it's not a right. Some of our Founding Fathers were against a Bill of Rights for that very reason.

The constitution does not provide one single right. The constitution's intent is to limit the government's power to infringe.

The 2nd Amendment doesn't give you the right to own firearms - you were born with that right. You were also born with the right to hunt.

Hey jdss44,

Just for the hell of it, why don't you tell us what experience you have spot and stalk hunting trophy red stags on a 100 acres of heavily wooded land in Maine that qualifies you to make a statement like the foregoing?

Hindsite - Good Luck with your fight! Is that farm in Northern Maine around Houlton? If it is I got a tour of it from by the owner several years ago, it was a fine operation! Friend's of mine used to have a red deer farm in Linneus but got out of it a while ago. I go past your town at least 3 times a year on my way up to camp. Maine has certainly changed for the worse in the 30+ years I've been going there!

When I was a teenager, I went with my best friend to Chestnut Hunting Lodge in North Carolina. Jerry Rushing the guy who wrote the Dukes of Hazard owns the place. I went through the Jurassic Park size gate into his property, a high fence operation two miles long. There were deer on the lawn he bought from Canada. One was a tame doe called "Doodles" who would pose with you for pics and wore an orange collar to distinguish her from the dead deer walking. I stalked up to a Russian boar with a metal tag in it's ear and shot it with my bow at 10 yards pawing the ground and looking very mean and angry towards me for being there. My friend shot his with my 54 caliber Renegade. We then proceeded to help the older out of shape hunters locate, shoot, and drag their pigs and one sheep to the trailhead. I had a good time.

It took me 11 years to kill my first deer on public land in RI with a bow (and I have a degree in wildlife biology). This year, I took 3 with the bow and for the first time in my life decided to forgo the gun and stuck with the bow all season long. I blew a shot at a nice eight point and killed another whose teeth were worn down to his gums. 23 years of bow hunting. I've spent thousands of hours in the woods scouting, stand sitting, and yes, taking the occasional deer. My first buck (a six) is on my wall. I've taken better but none was as great a trophy. At my club, there are maybe 4 or 5 of us that sit together and talk strategy. Go over what we did right and wrong, and how we are going to do it all again next year. I enjoy both versions of taking animals, but I would never equate taking an animal from a preserve with hunting.

By the way, here's an exert from a 2007 review of Jerry's place because it has CWD info....

"Due to CWD the state of North Carolina has banned the import of deer species into the state which reduces Chestnuts huntable species to rams, sheep, goat and hogs."

The anti's have been useing this as a point of attack since the 1970's and before I just remember that CBS special "The Guns of Autum." In it, it predicted that by now all "hunting" would be like this. I have no problem with it, I have never tried it and doubt I ever will. But for some it is what works and is needed.

Thank you.

The NRA tried that argument in the 70's and 80's, and it kind've backfired on them--it is dangerous to confuse the 2nd Amendment with hunting--two entirely different subjects.

Private property rights on the other hand......are as about as fundemental as it gets.....


Casey

I look at this subject from a few different angles. Some folks just plain think hunting inside a fence is unethical, or not sporting or easy , or whatever. I have a hard time with this subject because its a double edged sword. For example, I hunt black bears over bait, and know that in the country I live in , thats about the only effective way of killing em and they need killed, theres lots of em. Many folks think bear baiting isn't sporting and dont really understand the circumstances of how we bait em and the fact that we need to bait em in order to kill em. So me not supprting high fence hunting, is kinda like guys not supporting bear baiting. But to me high fence hunting, hunting preserves, game management ranches, whatever you want to call em, IMO have hurt hunting in a different way than just ethically. My view of these high $$$ ranches, preserves, etc is that they are causing most American hunters to lose tons of precious land that they once shared with their fellow statesmen to hunt on, in the name of free enterprise. I will never spend thousands of dollars to hunt on any of the above described places, whether I can afford it or not, thats just me. But while I dont neccessarily support high fence hunting/farming, I am more concerned with this free enterprise ideology and its affect on the average American hunter and the generations of young hunters to come, that will one day not be able to hunt, because they will be outpriced in the name of Free Enterprise hunting. Dont know if I explained this as well as I could in person, but its a sore subject with me on many fronts. The free enterprise, commercial hunting industry, IMO is what is destroying hunting in many places in this nation, not the anti's.

I understand what the Bill Of Rights does. But I also understand that the Constitution does not provide for the "right" to hunt. One could make an argument that hunting is a vested interest that carries a liberty to hunt, but one would have to undo about a hundred years of legislation to make it work.

The problem is, that there is an ethical question by most standards and values in America. And there is the risk question of disease to the public's wildlife.

Either one of those questions can be part of the public domain/debate.

Casey

I have killed blackies over bait and with hounds, and would consider doing it again.....but Colorado prohibited baiting for bears in 1992--at the same time hound hunting and spring bear hunting were prohibited--by citizens ballot initiative--and that's part of my point.....

When this balllot iniative passed, it passed by the widest margin ever for a citizen's ballot initiative ever in any state! 80% plus voted in favor of banning spring bear hunting, and bear hunting with bait or hounds. In order for this ballot to pass by that wide of a margin, it required a lot of hunters and anglers to vote FOR the initiative. Afterwards, I was a bit surprised by the number of "good 'ol boys" who voted for it--they considered that form of hunting unethical--along with a majority of non-hunters.

And the best way to lose most/all hunting rights is to be seen as defending unethical behavior, or opposing certian species of wildlife (wolves comes to mind).

As an aside note, us folks here in Colorado thought the only way to hunt blackies was with hounds, bait, or by accident during fall rifle seasons--turns out that wasn't true at all--spot and stalk hunting during the September hunt (created by the CDOW after the spring hunting ban ) kills as many bears as the spring hunt did......

Now I find spot and stalk black bear hunting to be a great way to hunt bears--but they already know that in Montana where they've been doing it for decades.

Casey

Some think health care is a right too....

Hunters have had a voice in most hunting legislation ie. limits, times of day etc..

To say there are no qualifications is silly.

I DO feel that the guy doing a high fence operation IS different. That being said, if he paid for the fence and the animals inside he should LEGALLY do as he wishes, period.

If they are animals just trapped in his fence he owes other citizens some money.

Now that I know about the hay bale thing, I think we could do it in half a day.

I'm curious Mark - how many stags do y'all take per year?

jds44,

By your obvious attempt to avoid answering my question, I can only assume that you have NEVER hunted on a game preserve, especially one located in a heavily wooded area in Maine.

Therefore one can only conclude that you don't have the slightest idea of what the [bleep] you're talking about.

I knew you were phony as soon as I read your initial post, but in the interest of fairness (something that you have neglected to show Hindsite) I thought I would give you the opportunity to explain what qualifications you had for making such an unfair and inaccurate assessment of his hunting operation.

Enough said...............I think the Campfire members can make up there own minds about what has transpired here.

The whole point is that the Bill of Rights in no way was meant to list all of our rights yet nearly every day I hear or read things like what you just wrote. Since rights don't stem from the Constitution whether they are listed in it or not is immaterial to their existance.

Looks like some professional buckmaster-baiter came in hear wanting everybody to get all foaming at the mouth to save his pretend hunting business. And everyone was too polite to way in on his ridiculous request....so he gets all crappy. WTF!?? Only a moron would term that sort of disgrace hunting. I could piss across your whole place. Get your shady faux hunting flabby hindsiteparts off this board. YOU SUCK.

Whether it's "real hunting" or not where does the government get off telling a guy what he can do on his own property with animals he owns? It's no different than if you had trout or bass in your own farm pond they told you that it was illegal to catch any.

Property rights aren't contingent on whether you like what the other guy has or not. It would be really cool, and probably a bit unusual if we could keep this conversation on an ADULT level. A lot to hope for I know.

Opinion(s) and belief(s), as strong as they may or may not be toward the issue of fenced harvests, is not an excuse to legistlate morality and ethics on private land.

Slippery slope, I suspect.

JMHO.

100 acres is not even a "fenced harvest". It's a caged whack job. Anybody that supports shooting fish in a barrel in the name of hunting rights makes all hunters look like idiots. No hunter should tolerate these sorts of sham "hunts". It's a disgrace to handicapped people to even drag them through the mud by associating them with this sort of charade. Anybody that patronizes these sorts of slaughter farms needs their ass kicked in public. I can walk across 100 acres in about a half an hour. The sooner we get rid of these pathetic parasites the better. They make a mockery of what is real and true and honorable about hunting just to turn a dollar.

Slippery as greased pig crap.

The hunting part doesn't get me too fired up. When folks think they can tell other folks what to do on their private property, that jerks my chain.

So it's all about calling it hunting then?

What about their rights to own property and use it as they see fit? Are you willing to turn over your rights to people that disagree with what you do in your home?

Yeah, if you want to raise [bleep] as pets on your own property, that should be ok too!

Yes in this case it is all about hunting as far as i'm concerned. This is a hunting board. You can own a home but you can't run a brothel out of it. These cretins aren't running a hunting operation, they are pimping wildlife out to feckless johns under the name of sport. Get them off this board and I'll be glad to go too.

The people down the road from me have bison, people in another direction have alpacas and their neighbors have fallow deer. They're all just livestock. The fallow deer guy will kill one and sell it to you for a price. I suppose he'd let you shoot it if he had more room to do it safely. It's not hunting but why should that be illegal?

They aren't wildlife. They're privately owned animals.

If the chit is advertised as farming that would be one thing, but these outfits dont advertise it like cabrito meat off a goat farm. They are calling this stuff hunting, hence why its being discussed here on a hunting forum. And me thinks theres a picture somehwere of some rich azz dumb [bleep] posing with one of these farmed critters! Lets keep it apples and apples.

So it should be banned because they call it hunting or they shouldn't be allowed to call it hunting and then let them do as they wish with their property?

I've seen ranches in Montana that advertise "harvest bison", which is pretty much shooting a bison in a field. Are they evil too even though they don't call it hunting?

We've got the same chit up here in Alaska.


Personally I am not suited to determine whats legal or not legal in Maine, never been there and I dont know what the circumstances are. I will tell you that IMO these kinds of outfits (yes I have seen them, they line the entire state of Texas from border ot border) dont help the cause for hunting nationally, instead IMO they hurt it. We can argue the habitat and herd population justifications of annual harvest of deer, elk, moose, bear, wolves, etc, all day long. But animals not native to the U.S. being bought, bread, fed and penned up and then whacked commercially for someones personal pleasure aint a pretty site for the anti's, leaving the sporting aspect aside.

100 acres is pretty small ime. have 100 acres and have walked it I don't know how many times, hunting, getting cows up, and just rambling or fixing fence. the fence keeps the cows in but not always rogue bulls and deer just sail over it.

no what Mark has to offer isn't my cup of tea, but I can choose to partake of it or not. and just because I don't care to participate in that activity doesn't mean I look down my nose at those that do or offer it up to folks. there's plenty of stuff on TV that has good ratings that I don't care to watch, newspapers that I don't want to read and threads on the 'fire that don't interest me.


I'm not much for the gov't banning any of it, just cause it doesn't suit me.

conversely, I'd be a mite pizzed if the powers that be said free range hunting is too disruptive on wild game populations and if you want to hunt go to a farm/ranch where you can.


no what Mark has to sell I'm not buying (and I mean no offense by that Mark) but he has a product that folks want, an experience they must enjoy to pay for it and so I say more power to them.

I'm not overly concerned what the anti's think about it, I know what they think about hunting of all kinds. I'm not concerned what a bunch of dumbazzes think about anything, but I am concerned when gov't is going to take a legal activity whether I approve of it or not and then ban it.

I truly wish you the best Mark, I'm not interested in buying a hunt, but if you guys start a legal defense fund, I'd be happy to throw a couple of bones in it.

So how many of you 'supporters' booked a hunt? After all, that's what the original post was advertising, in big bold letters.

Colorado1135?

Anyone?

You certainly have a way with words and I can see that you are a real people person.

He's a short term plant,Mark.

Certainly, you've been around long enough to know mindless drivel when you read it!

lol

I didn't want to be to hard on Buster, as he might have a disability...............I'm betting he will let us know today.

How many of you self-righteous high fence haters have ever fished in a stocked pond?
Is it not "real" fishing just because it is stocked?

A well run high fence operation can be quite challenging. I went to one a few years ago that had about 400 acres behind fence. Rode in a open "safari" car to spot critters. Then got out and stalked which was way harder than I figured it would be. Steep hill country, rocky ground, extremly thick brush and oak trees.
From what little I know it sure was similar to African style hunting. The only difference is that you know the critters are in there somewhere. Kind of like the stocked fish in the pond.
(Here in Texas a pond can be 100 acres or more).
It was great fun for those of us without the time or funds to actually go to Africa, etc.

Of course, what do I know? Everybody knows that there is no "real" hunting in Texas.

Live and let live. Hunt and let hunt!
We really gotta stick together people!

When I was a kid I had a real hankering to Trout fish. There was no place close to do that. One weekend we went up to the mountains and there was a place that was a fishery. I got a fish as soon as I threw a hook in. Was I fishing? Darn right. Was I having fun? Darn right. Did I care that it was a small concrete enclosed tank that held hundreds of trout? Heck no.

Marks business is his business. The animals are his. The land is his. He should be able to do as he wants with it.

I live in Texas and I see some high fence operations. However, the vast majority of land is not high fenced. My land is not high fenced.

The bottom line is this: "Do you want any more Govt strangulation in your life?" I think we have way too much already. Put yourselves in Marks shoes. The Govt now wants to make it illegal for you to run your personal business on your land. It has been legal all these years and now some activists don't want you doing it anymore. Kinda sucks!!!

Jim

Thanks Jim,


We have run a licensed business for 10 years. We are inspected yearly and we've never had a violation in all those years. We pay $1,000 to the State of Maine for our licence yearly. We pay $25 per animal harvested each year to the state. We purchase feed from a former dairy farmer who now only sells feed. We pay our tax's , we have liability insurance, farm insurance and business vehicle insurance...........It truly is a business on my land with my animals and I will fight to retain the right to do so, just like most people would if your rights were being challenged to restrict a legal business on your property.

Dead on--I entirely agree, and have said the same thing many times--but that doesn't change what I have said about "hunting rights".



Casey

Hey Mark. Off the wall but did you have any kinfolk named Margaret?

Jim

You sir are a first rate idiot. Are you tied up financially with this operation? It's the only thing that would explain why you're still trying to sell how difficult this "hunt" is.

Let's logically step through a few things. If they take just 5 mature stags per year (I'm guessing they take a lot more), let's run the numbers. That's 5 6+ year old stags (assuming they kill them all), 5 5 years olds, 5 4 year olds, 5 3 year olds, 5 2 year old, and 5 1 year olds. That's 30 stags on 100 acres all year long. You can't produce stags without females. Assuming the does produce a 50% male/female ratio on offspring, you need at least 10-20 does to produce at least 5 stags every year and allow for mortality, etc. and you have to have young does to replace the old that die every year. So now we've got 40-50+ animals inside this 100 acre enclosure.

100 acres can not even come close to supporting that number of animals, so they're fed all year long. I.E., they're tame and used to humans. Now what do you think is going to happen during the rut when there's 10-20 does to go around for 30 horny stags inside a 100 enclosure? The stags are going to kill each other. That ain't exactly profitable. Oh, and there's Fallow Deer too, so double all those numbers.

So here's what I think is happening - the does, offspring, and young stags are kept seperately and raised like livestock, with a few mature stags in the 100 acre enclosure at any one time. As stags as killed, a few more are released into the 100 enclosure from the breeding stock. It's a put and take operation with domestic animals. That's the only way it could work.

Educate me Mark, am I off base. If I am, please explain exactly how your operation works. Y'all keep saying we don't have a clue, enlighten us.

Good luck to you Mark on defending what you want to do with your land. It's obvious you've put a lot of time and money into it, and if there's guys that want to partake of what you offer, more power to them and you.

Me? Shooting farmed animals in a small enclosure doesn't float my boat and isn't fair chase hunting by any means. The most serious reservation I have about the whole game farm thing is the fact that non native animals have the potential to escape and change the genetics of native species. Then there's the disease thing. Mistakes happen. That's why I was one of the Montana residents that voted out game farms in our state and I'm glad they're gone. As far as I'm concerned, it's up to the people of Maine and what they want in their state. What they want is their business.

You can raise an animal to be a pet or you can raise them to be wary of strangers..........I raise them to be wary.


Here's what I do.....I maintain at least 20 animals in the preserve at any one time. Do I have a farm, why of coarse I do. Are they tame, no. They tolerate one person, the person that feeds them. Do they approach strangers, absolutely not. Why , because I don't allow my farm animals to come into close contact with anyone but myself or my neighbor.If I have my neighbor feed them which is seldom, they stay at a distance until he's gone. It takes them several days of seeing my neighbor with feed to begin to approach the feed while he is present..Even then they remain out of bow range...Could they be tamed , of coarse, but not on my farm.

Do I release farm animals into the preserve, absolutely. I release these wary farm deer into the preserve . They quickly join up with the even more wary preserve deer and learn the trails and escape routes that the PD have used to avoid my hunters. The preserve deer are supplemental fed and will start to filter in as I leave, with the females always last. The females are extremely wary when raised as I do. When the rut is on these wary females make it even more difficult to take a breed stag.I've had a few stags that were stocked that it took several years to harvest them. Last year we harvested 22 animals of all ages, females included. You have to manage their numbers as well as younger management stags with less then trophy potential(6 to 10 points)

I only keep 4 or 5 older breeders in the preserve at any one time and enough females to form two or three breeding mobs. This distributes the stags as they will take their mob of females and go hide them. Do they fight, absolutely and yes over the years I have lost a couple big ones.....But over the years I've learned what works as far as managing these animals so the loss's are minimal.


Is this the ammunition you were looking for? If you lived nearby I would invite you over. It wouldn't be the first time I've had to prove my point and I've yet to see anyone that visited approach my deer without them headed for cover.

I'm sure you go to every measure possible to make what you offer a good experience, but the bottom line is there's no way to make this look legit in the eyes of a lot of hunters, to the casual observer, or especially to those oppossed to our sport. These kind of operations are a black mark on us and fuel for the fire for the anti's to shut us all down.

Like I've said several times, from a land use perspective, I completely agree with you. You should be able to do what you want with your land and your property. From a hunting perspective, things like this aren't good for any of us.

Just kinda pondering the opinion of some that high-fence hunting is bad for the sport. In my view, it doesn't hold a candle to ATVs, snowmobiles, road hunters, and slob hunters.

Real hunters are incapable of asking permission, closing a gate, picking up their garbage, keeping a vehicle on a farm road, and following-up wounded game. The only thing they are capable of is acting like azz clowns while 'camping' at the local bar.

High-fences are the least of our problems.

Mark's respone bore out exactly what I was speculating - it's a put and take operation with domestic animals. You're still an idiot and that still ain't a hunt no matter how you spin it.

Mark, while I have never been to your facility, from the communications we've had here at the 'fire, I can tell you're nothing short of a good upstanding guy, and I'm sure you run a first class operation. It grieves me to see this asshat ripping you when he obviously knows nothing about you or your business. And to think that all this time, we've been ganging up on Maser, for no other reason than he's young, when we had this pompous idiot here to direct our ire towards. JDS, or whatever you call yourself, do us all a favor and take your bullschit elsewhere. I all most feel like we should organize a 'Fire hunt at Mark's place as a show of support.

Put this post down in the Big Game section, rather than up here in the Politics and Jokes section, and see what the for and against vote is on canned hunting.

Indeed, yes. I find it interesting how many members on this forum will turn to insults and ridicule of those who don't fall into the "knee-jerk reaction" that they deem proper for hunters and firearm owners. Really guys, you shouldn't try to alienate others who probably agree with you on 90+% of issues as it relates to firearms and hunting. You may disagree with jd ... fine. But having read through this thread, his responses have been reasonable and measured. Can't say the same about many who have responded to his posts. The high-fence issue is a tough one. A healthy debate amongst hunters won't kill anyone.

Of course, the way hindsite opened the thread as a blatant advertisement with a guilt trip plea for money and lecture for not enough responses didn't really help matters. In fact, it guaranteed a negative response and totally obscured the nobler aspect of pointing out government regulation creep and property rights, etc. However, he did later apologize and that is something.

A list of some of the asinine posts:

... name calling and insulting poorer hunters. Got news for you, when you eliminate the common guy from hunting, hunters won't be so common. Then you really do lose at the polls.

... more insults. Yep, that's the way to win their hearts and minds.

... yet more insults and condescension. Yes, the idiots could only wish they were so intelligent.

... dragging in a non-relevant issue... if they can hunt high-fenced, they can hunt without it ... what is magical to the wheelchair about the fence?

... now agreeing govt regulation ok

... end post calling jd more names ... of course, since that's how he started, so consistent to end it that way

Thanks ,the feeling of respect is mutual......Maser needed a break anyway and my skin is 57 years tough!..................Masers skin is only 19 years tough!

If he can take it, I can take it.

Legit question: Can a customer arrange to have a buck grown to world record B&C condition, then get the opportunity to kill that buck? I do not know if B&C recognizes game farm bucks for the record book. Any one know?

B&C will not recognize high fence animals, and that is as it should be. Les

B&C has a Fair Chase doctrine and does not except trophies from high fence operations.

B&C Fair Chase Doctrine

Thanks

Les is right, as it should be.....We can control feed and minerals that give these animals an unfair advantage as far as antler growth over their counterparts outside of the preserve.


Someone earlier was concerned with escaped animals and cross breeding with whitetail.........It is genetically impossible for a red stag or fallow buck and a whitetail to cross breed. In Maine you are not allowed to raise any deer species that could cross with whitetail.

Where are these stories, ads, and whatnot that are using private hunting preserves, ranches, or whatever to make hunting look bad? Maybe I don't read enough magazines like Gay Men's Monthly or whatever but I haven't seen one nor have I seen anyone post a story or link about one. Are they like the bigfoot or what?

Don't see anything in AlaskaCub's post which indicated he was a [bleep].

From what I've seen hunters are their own worst enemy. There are vast farms and ranches full of deer in our state that are posted no hunting. I've talked to people in those areas and the reason they are posted are because "hunters" come over and trespass, cut fences, leave gates open, and some have even shot domestic livestock.

I know a guy that has 27 sections that he farms and ranches. The only people he allows to hunt his land are his kids. He's actually been told by a guy he caught hunting his place that HE was the one trespassing. Another time five trespassing hunters stole one of the deer his son had shot on their own land. I know for a fact if Bill wasn't a hunter himself his opinion of the whole activity would be pretty negative based on his interactions with those few men.

It doesn't take many experiences like that in a small community and all of the land gets posted and the attitude about hunters to change. People that could be supportive of us are no longer and it doesn't take PETA to pull that off.

Noting in mine indicated he might be. I'm just speculating where they might hide these mythical attack ads.

Sadly this is true. The few rotten apples ...

those of you who are against high fence hunting, how should it be done then?

how do you hunt?
do you use scents? bait perhaps? feeders? treestands? rifles with scopes? anything?

I hunt on the ground on public land in the mountains, no scents, no nothing but my own senses and a rifle and binoculars.

I aint about to tell anyone how to hunt. tie it to a tree if you see fit.

the point made several times is for those who wish to shoot exatic game, their options are limited. this is the best way to shoot a stag or fallow deer in America. and as far as I know its the only way to do it, maybe besides when some escape in texas or something.
Get off Marks back, maybe open your minds a little to accept something other than what you agree with 100% that falls into he hunting category. you're using a gun or bow, to kill an animal that has area to run and get away from you. its not tied up, drugged or in any other way debilitated so it can't move.
get over yourselves and show a little support for a fellow member, or STFU and get off his back

Got a better idea ... why don't you STFU

GL, You need to atke you meds again

Hate taking the meds ... just can't do it.

it was an option I gave, not an order.

this thread has gotten a few crotchety guy riled up so I won't post anymore on it. narrow mindedness isn't a good thing.
you have my sympathy.

I'm an OTC, DIY, wilderness bowhunter. I hunt elk on the ground in same area Cameron Haynes does it. It's not uncommon for me to go into the woods in good shape and still lose a pound of bodyweight a day chasing bulls around that steep ground.

That's real hunting to me. Sitting over a bait, or in a box, or up a tree just doesn't do it for me but I'm not about to tell anyone else what kind of things they can do to scratch their hunting itch. If they like taking field mice with a blowdart, shooting deer at 500 yards with a super custom rifle with a Mount Palomar Observatory size scope on it, or hunting retarded pheasant on some guy's bird farm that's fine with me.

I've talked to a lot of nonhunters about hunting. The biggest thing that tips them one way or the other is if we are hunting to get meat or not. Most nonhunters don't like "trophy" hunting whether it's fair chase or shooting them in a barrel. Most of them have no clue what the physical differences between the two are and many don't seem to really care.

... which was unnecessary.



Only get crotchety when folks get rude, not when they simply disagree. I need no sympathy. I simply made a point as I don't normally engage in endless online disputes as it just clutters up bandwidth. For the record, I think hindsite should be able to use his property as he sees fit, even if I wouldn't be one of his clients. And I'd rather see Antis, PETA, Big Govt and Regulating Happy supporters thwarted at every turn. I'm a life member of the NRA and the GOA. Now I'll quit posting too.

I dont know WTF your referring to in regards to stories, ads, or what not. What I was referring to was "Perspective". Many non-hunters, or anti-hunters dont understand what we do. (trust me , I have a few in my family that are cityfied). All we as hunters can do is educate those that wholeheartedly want to take away from us , that which we love most, being in the woods and hunting chit. That is very hard to do in regards to pen hunting non-native trophies. And yes 100 acres high fenced is a [bleep] pen, I dont care how you describe it. I have hunted 100 acres, and I have lived on 80 acres. That is a pen no matter how its drawn up. The perspective of folks paying thousands of dollars to shoot these non-native penned critters is not a good one for our fight to keep the right to hunt and especially for our kids and their kids to do the same. The problem with folks is that when you define the words freedom, private property, rights, someone always takes the chit too far and causes a stink. Hey I dont live in Maine, and dont plan on going there anytime soon. I am assuming that the people of said state will eventually vote on this stuff and the results will be what they will be.

Interesting dilemma. At least it would be, if the antagonists of Hindsite were truly only against high fence hunting. As an aside, New England is a tough place to make a living nowadays, and whether I agree or disagree with the principle of high fences, I support an honest guy making an honest living. The truth is, these people pick a part of our sport that CAN divide us. If there is waffling support in our community, it's an easy tweak on their part to come after the part of hunting that YOU do. I gave up being an elitist years ago. Not everybody has the time, energy, and/or conditioning to hunt hard and long. They may have money, and they can trade it for an opportunity to harvest an animal legally, and under their own parameters. I probably wouldn't do it, but if I really wanted a Red Stag, and didn't have the bucks for Europe, this would be an alternative. The point is, they wish to stop all hunting. They are just picking on what they perceive to be a chink to start the wedge. The rule of thumb to defeat this whole liberal crap, is to not give ONE INCH. Incrementalism is their tool, and time is their friend.

Excellent post and dead on target.

Jim

Don't know how this fits in but:




Today I took a Poop that would make most farm animals proud

So we can take freedom too far? Interesting.

Again, you claim that the existance of these farms is harming the image of hunting and yet in my 49 years on the planet and 36 years of big game hunting I've yet to meet one non hunting person that's even mentioned one to me....ever. I talk to a lot of people and pretty much all of them know I'm a hunter. I'm open to discuss it with anyone I meet and have done so many many times and yet not one person has brought up private farms, canned hunts, or anything of the sort as a real concern of theirs in regards to hunting.

That makes it difficult to believe that these operations are having any impact at all on the image of hunting.

I've seen footage of PETA demonstrating against fur farms and the wearing of fur. I've seen chicken farms with slurs painted on the sides of the buildings by PETA and ELF type pinheads. The lab one of my friends does veterinary research in was broken into and vandalized by those folks too. I haven't seen any demonstrations, vandalism, arson, or anything directed at hunting preserves, high fenced places, or whatever you choose to call them.

So where is this negative image you're selling me? From what I can see it's like the UFOs and bigfoot....rumored to exist but as yet not proven.

I'm all about Mark's rights to be able to do what he wants on his land. I would not support a ban. That said:

If some Dr. with a shiney new Weatherby wants to come along and pay a few grand to shoot his first game animal, mount it on his wall, and show everyone what a great "hunter" he is, so be it.

Let's just not confuse it with real hunting. It's harvesting, plain and simple.

The only way to acquire a steak any faster would be to walk into a Ponderosa, and that's only if the service was good.....

your post needs a picture sir.

With a name like that, we don't expect anything less.

Blindfold and tie yourself up--then go hunt inside a high fence.......




I just kinda' wander around, looking for a critter caught in a barbwire fence..........





I once went 3 weeks in Alaska without taking a bath--does that count?





Well, there's been a few alfalfa fields........





Well, I've defended a few haystacks against wild herbivores.....





Does the rim of a canyon count?




One word--Leupold.





I've alway wanted to try a leather jockstrap and a sharp rock--but not behind high fences.





Me too......sometimes a bow--a traditional bow





I bet if I flew around in my dad's Cessna dropping dynamite on elk and called it hunting, you would be opposed to it--especially if you were on the ground nearby.......





Exotic is the key word--want to hunt exotic game?--go to exotic lands and hunt them where they are indigenous--it's an important part of the hunt.





How much wiggle room should the critter have? An inch? Or a hundred acres?





Hindsite put it out, and he puts his advertisements out there--that's kind've like saying everybody should shutup and not criticize Obama......I mean, just because you don't agree with some of the posts and all.......


Casey

Put it back--then I'll be impressed........

If you oppose Obama you'll end up in Gitmo...unless he closes it.

Bare with me here guys. I'm a little confused.

Is this a hunting rights issue or property rights issue? It seems to me that it is a property rights issue but I'm basing this on some assumptions that may be incorrect. Please correct me where I am wrong.

1. You do not need a hunting license/tag to kill the animals in question.
2. They are legally livestock or exotic species NOT native animals like whitetail, moose and the like
3. You could kill them any time of the year because there is no official season.
4. You could kill them by any means that the owner of the operation allows. Whoever manages the native wildlife does not put restictions on type of weapon. (This assumes you are not doing anything that can be considered torturing the animals)

If the above are true then I really don't see how this is a hunting issue. It's a simple property rights issue. And the owner of the property (land and animals) can do anything they want with them. So what is the case PETA, or whoever the anit-hunters are, are trying to make? And why should hunters get involved in a non-hunting issue (other than they care about property rights)?

You right bud, these types of operations are viewed positively, even by lifelong hunters, thats easily seen by reading the 5 pages of responses in this thread! Have fun with this one jackazz, maybe you can find someone else to call a [bleep] that doesn't agree with you!

They can't swim that far!

If true, Rick Santelli will be there shortly.

Bingo - you nailed it squarely. It's a property rights issues (in which I fully support Mark). It's not a hunting rights issue in the least and Mark's asking hunters to charge into battle with him is what I've been taking exception to.

+2 for you.
PETA is against the killing of any animal*



*unless they do the killing.

Reading comprehension isn't your best skill I hope. I didn't call you anything.

The image we should be worried about, you know the one that will actually impact whether we can keep hunting or not, isn't the one other hunters have of each other...it's what the other 85+% of the population sees us as.

We're about 14% of the population and on top of that our numbers are dwindling every year. What we do need to do is stick together but clearly that's never going to happen. We've lost hunting opportunities in my state twice now because of a lack of solidarity in our ranks.....and that was against an actual threat unlike this mythological one you keep bringing up.

All I asked you was where this negative image was impacting us and you failed to provide one single instance. Instead you get your feelers all hurt over something that wasn't even said.

That right there is the best thing posted in this entire thread

Hey Mr. Issac, check the register date of this short term plant and compare it to yours.

I've had my say and this ignorant (of stalking red stag in heavily wooded 100 acre pens LOL) hillbilly thanks you all for listening.

You folks are so correct. This is not about hunting at all and we should just drop it as hunters and let the chips fall where they will. While we are at it I think all the hunters should not support the right to own assault weapons. After all it has nothing to do with hunting either.

You can twist and turn the facts any which way to fit your mold of how hunting should be but you can't change the fact that what Mark does is in fact hunting. It may not be hunting to you but it is to him and all his clients. Play all the BS games you want but we had darn sure better start taking each others backs or we will be hunting with rocks and sticks in years to come.......that is if the King lets us hunt at all.

Jim

As I stated earlier, no way I would support the ban. Just don't ask me to call it "hunting"......

I also do not support the ban in any way, shape or form. I just fail to see how it is a hunting issue. People are trying to infringe on his rights to do what he wishes with his property. I think that is total and complete B.S. And we should support him. But it's not a hunting issue.

It was originally Life, Liberty and Property before it was Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I prefer the original.

Correctomundo!
No hunting is involved, therefore it is a non issue.

I wish this thread would die so this outfit would stop receiving all the free publicity.

I completely agree.

Free............

I advertise on this site to the tune of $250 every three months. You may not like what I do, but I support this site with real money.

Without advertisers who help pay the bills associated with this site, the Campfire would vanish................................ If you don't believe me ask Rick!



What have you done to support this site?

Assault rifles have nothing to do with hunting either. I don't care for them nor do I own one but I be darned if I will stand idly by and let the govt take them away without some defensive action. Nor will I stand up and thump my chest because I don't agree with them. Doesn't matter what "you" call it. It is in fact hunting. To say otherwise is burying your head in the sand or elsewhere.

According to the dictionary:

Hunting is the practice of pursuing animals for food, recreation, or trade. In modern use, the term refers to regulated and legal hunting, as distinguished from poaching, which is the killing, trapping or capture of animals contrary to law. Hunted animals are referred to as game animals, and are usually large or small mammals, migratory gamebirds, or non-migratory gamebirds.

Looks like Marks operation fits the accepted definition of hunting whether ya'll like it or not. Personally, I hunt free roaming game. That's my choice. I will support others choices to hunt as they will. I am not such an arrogant a$$ as to think my way is the only right way.

I will venture that in my lifetime (20 years left at best) that I will see the end to hunting because we, the hunters, can not mount a united front. We will continue to bicker and bitch among ourselves and all will be lost. Who will we blame for this. We'll find someone because we will be too arrogant to accept the blame ourselves but the blame will be squarely on our own shoulders. Enjoy the time we have left.

Jim

Well said.

Penny

In a single word............ Nothing

Jim

'Bout covers it.

Well said, texasbatman.

This definition apparently only applies to people with an open mind .

Good luck Hindsite, even though high fences aren't my cup of tea either. What you do with you own stock on your own land, is your right. My dad was in this same kind of business years ago, but with bison. Why should he have had to load one, take it to a sale barn or a slaughterhouse, where the fencing and containment may not of been adequate, when it should of just been harvested in it's tracks at the ranch? Working at a custom meat shop years ago, I shot thousands of cattle, sheep, and hogs, like this, then hauled them back to town in a winch truck. I never called it hunting, but I saw nothing wrong with it either. The animal rights activists, in my opinion, should push for harvesting cattle in the pasture as well. Our fences weren't high, and these bison roamed several thousand acres, but we'd feed the bulls just before the person that purchased one would pop it--you didn't have to hunt very hard lol.

I'm with you a 100% buddy good luck.

BTW, I always got a chuckle out of the "hunters" that would change into several sets of clothes, safari, mountain man, blaze orange, etc, for all the photos they could get. But heck it was their dime, and I'm sure I would of seen it differently if I would of been from someplace like Philadelphia, instead of from a bison ranch in Wyoming.

Jacques,


Thank you for your support. I haven't seen you on the board lately. Have you been busy with your masonry business?


How big a herd of Bison did your father keep? The meat is excellent and I'm toying with having a couple just to produce my own bison meat. What little I've had was some of the best red meat going!

I hope all is well in your neck of the woods....Take care.

I'm just a bit tired of hunters bashing hunters. That's exactly what is becoming the demise of out sport. If you don't like hunting on a game farm, then so be it. But don't try to shove your point of view down the throats of others. Mark's operation is a farming/hunting business. Let's move on.

The only real hunting is winter in the far north, hunter is naked, he has a sling and two rocks or small spear with handmade point. The rest is just plain spoiled rotten city idiots with big dollar cheating tools like guns with scopes and bullets. Do it this way or you aren't a hunter!!!








BTW, I do not qualify as a hunter either.

Scott,

FIRST, you had to have lain waiting in ambush, naked, freezing, for the first mammal you could kill with your bare hands. You need the mammal's hide to fashion your sling from! Cutting and scraping the hide with a sharp rock would be a bitch, but we are talking about true hunting.

PS. I'm not a true hunter either; if there's technology available to aid me I use it.

I stand corrected.

Now how about fishing. No hooks or modern equipment for a real fisherman. It has to be bare handed, your week hand, with at least three broken fingers. Anything else is cheating.

Mark I wish you well and support you 100% in your battle. The outcome certainly will affect "Hunting" and hunters rights in the future.

I was born in Old Town and started hunting about age 6 following my dad in the woods. Back then you could walk for 300 miles in a direction and never cross a road. I like to think of it as learning woodsmanship while hunting. A couple of my cousins are registered Maine Guides for Deer, Moose and Black Bear.

After moving from Maine I still returned when I could even using my 30 days leave from the military just to hunt with my dad Definitely some tough whitetail hunting but hunting I really enjoyed. I am now retired (1989) in Texas and for the past 11-12 years have taken 3-4 weeks a year to chase Elk in Colorado with arrows.

I did work for some 7 years guiding on the biggest Exotic Game Ranch here in Texas and in the US with over 50 species of Exotics. Though not my kind of hunting it was right for the people who chose to do it. For some it was the only hunting they knew, some it was a hunt of a lifetime and others it was a business trip with customers. They were called clients not hunters. I could go on and on about that experience but need to make my point.

For the self proclaimed true hunters-
Would you rather have these clients in the same woods with you with a gun in their hands or hunting behind a high fence? Some clients were excellent to guide and others were a pain in the butt. I think that applies to some of us hunters also.

Is sight fishing for a big female bass on the bed in shallow water really bass fishing? Is calling in Bull Elk during the rut really Elk hunting. How knit picky are you going to get? Believe me once this snowball starts it won't slow down. We have to think long term and look to the past and see what these politicians and PETA folks are really up to. Oh by the way Mark, wasn't it Maine that tried 3 times to reintroduce Caribou to the state before they realized Caribou migrate.

A real hunter can call for elk as long as he is naked and using a sling and he walks through the woods yelling at the top of his voice "HERE ELK", then it is OK.

I was hunting in Wyoming in the late 70's and actually saw a group of hunters with megaphones yelling just that. Of course they were out of staters so go figure. Tom

Would have been fun to watch.

My wife was sitting in a canoe on our honeymoon. She started calling "Here fish" and I about fell out of the canoe laughing. Then she caught a fish... then she caught another... then it got ugly. Since then she usually out fishes me by two to one. But, she make up for it by catching bigger fish than I do. She tells me I have to think fish and transmit those thoughts down the rod into the water. Ridiculous! Dumbest thing I ever heard! Wish I knew how she did it!

I was actually quite amazed as they were trying to drive Elk to waiting hunters up the draw. Ruined my hunting and against the law too. Tom

Mark,

We usually ran from 400-600 bison. At one time, late 60s, we had the only bison feedlot in the world. That's where we fed up the young bulls and a few heifers. The retired bull herd (the old tough big ones that hunters like best ) usually numbered from 20-30.

Once the byproduct was worth more than the meat--we also worked with a taxidermist who sold mounts, black powder horns, leg lamps, and pizzle stick canes, etc. etc. but mostly tanned robes. As well as a nearby meat packer that specialized in selling gourmet restaurants and also produced salami by the ton.

As more and more people found this market, prices went down. We used to get $1500 - $2000 for a hair on robe with 1970 dollars. You can buy one on-line now for around $500. The meat isn't hard to come buy like it once was either -- hunting I guess would be about the only good market left and you're gonna want big old bulls for that.

Naked preserve hunts, now there's something my clients could get behind!

Bow hunters could wear camo body paint !

I know you do photo hunts but PLEASE do not send pictures!

That's right,it went something like this...........




Predators Kill Maine's Caribou Restoration Effort

Published: November 4, 1990

The organizer of a private effort to restore caribou to the wilds of Maine, where that deer species has been largely extinct for about 80 years, says the project has failed, a victim of predators.

The organizer, the Maine Caribou Project Inc., announced Wednesday that it was abandoning the four-year-old effort. Project officials said they doubted that they could raise the money needed to transplant enough caribou to create a self-sustaining herd.

Of the 32 caribou released in Maine, 25 are confirmed dead -- 12 killed by bears or coyotes. The remaining seven are unaccounted for, but biologists believe that only two or three are alive and that the caribou have apparently lost the radio collars used to keep track of them.

Four caribou calves were born in the wild. Two died of unknown causes; the others were killed by a bear and a bobcat. Excessive Hunting and Disease

Caribou once were so abundant in Maine's north woods that a city was named after the animal. But excessive hunting and disease left them extinct in Maine more than 80 years ago.

The restoration effort, which began with a caribou roundup in a remote corner of Newfoundland, was the second since 1963.

When the latest caribou releases were planned, the project leaders' principal concern was the brainworm, a deadly parasite.

Richard B. Anderson, a project spokesman, said none of the biologists had anticipated how critical the threat of bears threat would be.

"I think it's possible to restore the caribou to its former range," he added. "But you need a lot of animals."

But that would take more money than project leaders believe they can raise in a weakening economy.

Biologists believe they would need 50 to 100 more caribou to succeed, but it would cost $300,000 to capture, transport and monitor that many animals. The project officially ends Dec. 31. Need Is Seen for Wide Support

"We have come to realize that only under an extraordinary set of circumstances would it have been possible to complete a project of this magnitude without organizational and financial support of Federal or state wildlife agencies," project leaders said.

The project's failure shows that money "is far better spent to conserve Maine's endangered species today, while they still exist," they said.

The leaders said they would share information with officials in Minnesota, Wisconsin and Idaho, where similar projects are proposed or under way.

The last caribou from a native Maine herd was sighted on mile-high Mount Katahdin in 1908.

In 1963 two dozen caribou were released in Baxter State Park in northern Maine. All of them disappeared because of poaching, disease, predators and natural dispersal, biologists believe.

In 1986 more than two dozen caribou in Newfoundland were shot with tranquilizer darts and transferred by helicopter and in trucks to enclosures at the University of Maine in Orono, 1,200 miles away.

Biologists kept this "nursery herd" in Orono to breed young caribou to be released in the state. Of the dozen released in Baxter park in April 1989, only one was known to have survived by the end of that year.

I'll just PM them to Les!

Some guys would shoot fish in a barrel and call it fishing I guess.
I have not one thing against farming or ranching or killing the animals, but to post here that killing animals on 100 high fenced acres seeded with hand fed critters is hunting is akin to what we hear they are teaching in the school system or for little kids soccer games. Where no one loses and all are equal no matter the score or grade.

I'd personally be ashamed to have my picture with a animal posted on a web site like that. Nor would I pay to hunt in a lot of what I read about some, but not all, of Texas, some there is truly hunting for sure.
But again like you guys say "to each his own". Some of us accept some things and others don't. You have your standards and I have mine.
I guess some of this is like alot of this PC crazy world we live in, where everyone is AOK no matter what they do or how it affects their fellow man's standards, and if we fail to accept you, we are intolerant heathens.

Gosh we can even wear dresses and still proclaim we are men.
Barf!

Hey 700LH,

You sound like a smart guy, so take a minute and explain to all here the difference between sitting in a tree stand on 100 acres of open land and waiting for a deer to approach or sitting in a treestand on 100 acres of fenced in land and waiting for red stag to approach.

And while you are at it, you might want to tell us all how sitting in a heated box blind over a green field with a high powered rifle waiting for deer that you KNOW come into the field every evening is so different than a tree stand sit at Marks place?

How about sitting over a water tank with a gun or bow waiting for antelope that you KNOW come there each day for water?

Or maybe how sitting over a barrel of jelly donuts waiting for bear that you KNOW hit the bait every evening differs from a hunt from a tree stand at Marks?

I could go on and on with the scenerios, but the point here is can YOU describe to everyone here what YOU beleive is so drastically different about the "hunting experience" that Mark's operation has to offer versus the various examples that I have provided?

The sanctimony is thick enough to cut with a fork.

Getting laid at the Bunny Ranch does not a playboy make.....

You can wear dresses and still be a man. The Scots and Samoans, and others have been doing it for generations. They have different names for them but they're the same basic article of clothing.

What you wear doesn't make you anything different than what you are. What a silly idea.

Having a different opinion doesn't make someone intolerant. Intolerance is when you take action or expect someone else to take action to change behaviors in others that you disagree with.

I have worn a kilt. you have to watch how you sit but other than that is is fine.

You only need to make yourself happy and that I do in spades!

Amen Brother!!!!!

Jim

He can't my friend. Stoneage hunters were the last true hunters.

Have a good weekend.

Jim

Maybe not, but you're still using your "gun" just the same.

Steelhead,

TFF!

Mark,
Best of luck in your fight against the antis and the people on
this forum that can't see that it is a step in the door for
the antis.
In Colorado they first got their foot in by banning baiting and
Dogs on bear.
They did this thru petition, got enough names on it to put it
in the general election as a constitutional amendment
The people of boulder got it passed.
That worked well so they went after spring bear hunting the
same way, that worked too.
Next they went after trapping and got that banned too.
These were ballot initiatives and by state law the CDOW
could not take a position on any of these.
Case in point: The CDOW studies and statistics, after the
antis used the facts that tremendous numbers of spring
bears where females with cubs. The facts were, 1. the
CDOW scheduled the hunts while the female was still in the
den and 2 the amount of females killed during spring
season amounted to 1-one.
So you allow them in the door with legislated bans they
will go after the voters next.
Charlie

Well, not only should they ban fences, they should ban shooting them with guns. Real men use bows and arrows.

That is tongue in cheek, of course. Mackman is exactly correct.

...and for the guys who think YOU are a "real" hunter, watch this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo

and thus, why I got the hell outa there, no longer suitable for habitation.

They quickly set the hearing dates to give us little time to prepare.

LD 316 An Act To Create a Large Game Shooting Area in Piscataquis County............. Mar 4, 2009, 0930AM Room 206, Cross Building


LD 438 An Act To Promote Small Business in Rural Maine by Expanding Game Hunting Opportunities................. Mar 4, 2009, 0930AM Room 206, Cross Building


LD 560 An Act To Ban the Hunting of Animals in Enclosed Areas................... Mar 4, 2009, 0930AM Room 206, Cross Building





A local TV station wants to do a news piece on our preserve.They want to know how this bill would impact us and others that we buy feed from etc........ Maine has over 5000 deer being farmed with a yearly feed bill exceeding 1 Million dollars. That is just hay, then there is grain, minerals, vet bills, insurances, licences and numerous other supplies.

Question:

Would you allow this interview that gives us a chance to defuse a lot of the propaganda that the antis will spew or would you decline?


I personally think that defusing their claims would benefit us. Two claims in particular:

#1....They claim we waste the meat and that the clients just want the head and hide........Truth, never happen on my watch, If a client decides to take only a portion of the meat because of travel restrictions we donate the remaining meat to our local food bank....They love those donations.


#2....They claim we intentionally wound animals to avoid damaging the cape.........Does this even make sense , who in hell wants to pursue a wounded animal on purpose. This is absolutely a ludicrous statement. We take every step to insure a clean kill, starting by qualifying the clients weapon and his ability to use it at our range before they ever enter the preserve.

That is a tough question MArk. I think I would go for it but be aware they may try to make you look bad.
Good luck.

Jim

The reporter is a personal friend of my daughter Skye......so.....I think we will gamble and roll the dice!

yeah but who does the reporter work for? and do they have any agenda other than reporting facts?


if unsure about any of those questions I'd want it writing that you have permission to approve or NOT of any editing or the piece doesn't run at all.


getting your facts out would be good for your cause, but just cause you talk into a camera ain't a guarantee the public will see your side of the story.


just points to consider, luck to you

Great advice ............Thanks!



Here is a letter I sent the Governor of Maine:


Dear Governor Baldacci,

My name is Mark Luce. My wife Joanne and I run Hindsite Red Deer Farm and Hindsite Hunt Preserve in Newport Maine.

If Bill L.D. 560 pass's , deer farming in Maine will disappear. Business's that supply over $1 million in feed annually will be impacted if not put out of business as well. So I ask you to please read the facts and figures below and allow the Department of Agriculture to stand in support of our business and all those we do business with.

The clients we bring to Maine are economic engines in their own right. They rent camps while they are here, they eat out and enjoy Maine lobster like it was candy. They visit our coast, our mountains, they do far more than harvest a stag in our preserve and many return every year. A high percentage of these folks had never been to Maine before their preserve hunt. How can we see fit to kill these little economic engines.

Thank you for your time and you have a standing invitation to visit our farm and preserve.


Sincerely,
Mark Luce
www.hindsite-deer.com





Mark Drew from Shakaree Red Deer Farm in Houlton compiled some numbers that I think you need to see.


There are 63deer farms in Maine with 5000 deer.
For the average winter we feed for 220 days. We feed 24,640 round bales of silage or dry hay each winter. This equates to $985,600. There are several farms that feed year round which would increase this cost to well over $1,000,000. Deer farmers are feeding 1368 tons of grain at a yearly cost of $273,600. A large majority of us do not produce our own hay crops, and rely on other farmers. If the hunting ban was to pass several other non- deer farms would be lost as well. This states deer farms rely on the hunting preserves to purchase their animals. With a home grown market the deer farmers did not have any reason to tb test and become a cert. cwd herd. With no hunting market to sell their animal to the industry is dead.. People can say we could turn to venison but we have all seen what has happened to the farms that went down that road,they are out of business. We can not compete with the heavily subsidized New Zealand venison companies.


Mark Drew
Skakaree Red Deer Farm
Houlton, Maine

I hope the cost of feed and the revenue lost isn't your best shot.

When a whitetail was found (on a deer farm) in Michigan last year with CWD the state placed a outright ban on deer feeding in the lower peninsula. The growers and retailers easily lost over 10 times the amount your claiming. Lawsuits were filed against the ban by those who supply deer feed, the state won the right to regulate supplemental feeding. Growers and retailers lost their azes because the had a season's worth of feed ready to sell...........................................

There's a difference...........................They reacted to CWD which is something Maine has been testing for as well . We have been testing for CWD for nearly 10 years with no CWD found.

As I mentioned before , there has not been a single recorded case of CWD in either Red Deer of Fallow deer in the world. They are the two most prominent deer farmed in Maine.






We can not farm whitetail in Maine..........Only species that can not cross breed with WT are allowed to be farmed.

Mark I understand the differences. My point is that if your basing your point on the economic loss to the feed growers your argument might not fly.

Have a figure available that shows how much money is pumped into the local and state economy by your (and all game farms) clients, also the tax revenues generated by the operations. Show it as a total loss......................... has more impact.

We are compiling all of those figures which spell a much greater economic engine than mentioned when you look at the big picture.

The reason for the initial focus on feed producers is that they are struggling to stay a float as the hobby horse's are being sold because of the times we are in, dairy farms are disappearing, so as their traditional market places dry up, we the alternatives are a welcomed and needed part of their business..........The average Mainer who cares about his or her land rights and farming in Maine, support us. Most of the anti sentiment comes from the Liberal rich southern Maine area....The other Maine!


So far this morning I have received three emails of support from members of the Agriculture Committee, the committee that will hear our bill...That is a good start!


We have the executive director of the "Sportsmans Alliance of Maine" George Smith , he will give his support.SAM has supported us in the past and continues to do so.

We have the Farm Bureau of Maine supporting us as they see the big picture.


......................and the obvious is the feed producers.....................They support us, we support them!



Support continues to grow..............We can and will send these antis packing, we have done it before we shall do it again!

A comprehensive impact statement would go a long ways that's for sure. I'll bet the total impact to the state's economy and tax base from feed, farming, and hunting operations is considerable.