I gave permission to a young distant relative to bow hunt one of our Kansas farms. Land owners are allowed to transfer an 'any deer' tag to an out of stater if related for a minor fee-$30.00. I tightly control access to this place with locked gates. We have a nice heated elevated little house in the middle of the section. It can be used as a looong range shooting platform, video blind, or nice warm place to eat lunch or change clothes or retreat from the weather. In it is kept a key to the common locks on the gates. Our rules are that you walk in to hunt and walk out. If you get a deer down you go to the house, get the key and walk out to the gate to then drive in and load up. The key goes back in the house. The gate is locked again when you leave. Wednesday morning this young man took a nice 150 class buck. He dragged the deer out of the timber to the edge of a field about 200 yards south of the little house, walked right by it out to the road, got in his truck and remembered he had forgotten the key. So he just locked it in 4wd, drove around the end of a fence, and drove up thru a newly planted wheat field to get his deer. Even then he didn't stop and get the key, but simply followed his tracks back out, not using the farm path or gate. I went nuts when I found out and banned him from the place forever. Who is the bigger ass? mike

Mike,

I'm not Ann Landers, but common sense tells me that a guest has an obligation to follow the rules of the landowner. The guest in this case did not. Hopefully he learned a valuable lesson. If he didn't, you don't want him back at any price. You may have over-reacted a bit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (forever is a long time) But I suppose he is a "city" kid. Because a country boy would have known better than to drive across a newly planted field. IMHO you did the right thing.

He messed up.

From what I've read you overreacted a tad.

Bet he's clear on the rules next time (if there is one).

From what you've written, I'd be inclined to CONSIDER giving him another chance, providing you both have a clear understanding of what is what.

Rick

Y'know Mike, my first thought was "I probably wouldn't have said much - but I would never invite him back". But on second thought, I like your approach better (assuming you weren't abusive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). The kid knows why he can't come back. He has no question that it upset you. He should understand that he broke a cardinal rule, and maybe, just maybe, he'll be more thoughtful in the future. You were direct and to the point. He was wrong. You can always change your mind (much) later, if he proves himself. Doing it the way I first thought of would have taught him nothing.

-FreeMe

Lots of people nowadays don't understand (or accept) the concept of consequences. Now one more does. You own the place; you set the rules. He not only violated the rules, the flauted them out of sheer laziness and lack of consideration. He deserves the consequences he received; I just hope he's big enough to understand that he and he alone made the decisions and took the actions that led you to ban him from the farm. If later in life it appears that he has learned and grown, and you forgive and relent, then that will be a second valuable lesson in proper behavior. And if you don't feel the need to relent, then that is also a valuable life lesson.

But you have nothing to feel bad about...

How did he take the news about being banned? If he shruged it off than good riddens.

On the other hand, if he was really taken back by it, sounds like he just volunteered for some chores... work the land a bit and learn respect for it and its owner.

Let him know that his tracks may get others to think about going around the fence too. Tell him about the loss of crop and money you payed out to work that land that spot of crop he trashed.

Sounds reasonable to me, as long as he was specifically told the rules. I think you were pretty damn generous to let him hunt at all. I'm somewhat surprised a bow hunter would be so dumb, since they spend so much time and effort normally in getting a chance.

I've got a somewhat similar situation, I let a young friend of my son hunt on my place, he's 9 so naturally I included his Dad both for the kid and allowed him to bow (his preference) hunt. First time they come out, they bring older brother, 15, who I know slightly. Well, Oooookay, but I tell them specifically in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that the hunting invitation is for them and NO ONE else. Young kid kills his first deer, a 3 point (which I wanted taken out). Now older, older brother, whom I've never met is home on leave from the Army. They ask permission, I say no, I'm the villain. This is for a place that I turned down a $1000 a gun for 5 people to hunt. Geesh, no wonder I like staying out on my ranch away from people, or....maybe its me.

CAT take a look at my post in Big Game under the Wyo rancher complains thread and tell me if it don't ring a bell?


BCR

It bothers me that I am the one feeling quilty here!! This guy is a 35 year old second cousin. An avid bow hunter. Altho I won't sell hunting priveleges, preferring to share a plentifull resource with like minded folks, the going rate in Kansas for exclusive rights on a perfect place to take a big deer is in 4 figures. I expected some reverence for the place and the opportunity. The damage to the wheat will be minimal but the pissed off factor went off the scale. The kid seemed to think his actions were justified because he 'drove out the same way he drove in'!

I remain dissapointed that common courtesy seems to be an old fashioned ideal. I'll bet his 80 year old grandmother, my wife's aunt, will apologize for him and would tan his hide if she could. Thanks to all for responses. mike

Muledeer,
Well spoken. I demanded courtesy from my children when they were at home. If any one of them had pulled this there would be heavy consequences. I suppose they have spoiled me into expecting like behaviour from all. Your thoughts about life's lessons are spot on.
mike

MLLEWIS, I suspect you are having second thoughts and feel a little regret because you over-reacted a bit. Maybe you owe the kid an apology for what and how you said what you did. Maybe not, it's just a thought, but it sounds like your conscience is working on you a bit. Even after an aplogy though, you don't have to let the kid back on the property. It's your land and you can do with it as you want. He should respect that.

I'm inclined to agree with Rickster and Kevin, depending, of course, on his reaction when you'd layed down the law. If he was apologetic, I'd consider lifting the ban, provided he'd help out with some labor, and a promise to follow the rules from now on.

If he got "smart" with me, or seemed unrepentant, the ban would stick.

I've been known to over-react a little, and there's been a couple times when I felt I owed someone an apology, and did so. But after that, it's been up to them where we went from there. Sometimes a little time for both sides to cool off, is the best course of action.

Bottom line, it's your ground, and therefor, your decision.
7mm

I disagree with those that think you overre-acted. if he is indeed 35 he should know better. He knew the rules when you allowed him on. IMHO he is the a**. tom

I'm wid you,,, IMAHO you didn't over react, if anything you under reacted. I'd probably had him in the wheat field with a spade, rake and some seed with instructions to repair the damage, then when he had it perfect, I'd have issued the ban. This case points out the problem of 4WD in todays society. I was taught that 4WD was to get you unstuck on a muddy or snowy road, but nowadays, its considered whats needed to go off the roadway and blaze new trails. You shouldn't have to explain to people that they are not allowed to drive off the roadway no matter how big their tires are. You done the right thing.

I thought of the Wyoming rancher thread as soon as I stared reading. You did'nt over react at all. The key words are, "drove through a newly planted wheat field" Actually he deserved to have his ass kicked.
This is another reason landowners are usually short with permission requests. We heard it all before and have a hard time letting people get out their whole sell before we say no.

Mike,

Don't take me wrong here, but it seems like anytime I done about the samething you did. Once it got around to the family I would be the a-hole and was removed from all the Christmas list. Well I'm still around and would do the same things again and would do the same in your case. You aren't the bad guy, he only brought the bad out of you and on to him. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hang in there and stand tough! Sounded like a simple rule to me and appears all other were able to follow it.

MLEWIS,

You done good, Boy.

Even Jesus told the lady, "Go and don't sin anymore." He did not let her slide. At 35, the guy should have volenteered to work out the loss in the field.

I think what you did is a great thing for this hunter. It will hopefully teach him how important it is to follow the rules. The way I look at it is, He only lost his privilage to hunt on your land, Not somewhere else. He could have broken some state hunting laws and got caught by wardens, and possiably lost his rights to a hunting licance alltogeather ! By keeping your thoughts of how you reacted to this person, Hopefully he has learnd a valuable lesson, and will respect landowners requests in the future, If he doesnt, eventualy he will not have a place to hunt at all.

My further thoughts are that if this person does realize his screwup, He will feel uncomfortable about asking permission to hunt on your property again anyway.

I do recon that if he were to come to me on his own and offer to pay for any damages, Put up some new No Tresspassing signs, Till the fields and pick some rocks, That would give me good indication that he has learned a valuable lesson and will likely respect your simple rules, Just maybe then I would reconcider, and even then your not obligated to let him hunt there again.

MLEWIS,
You did the right thing. YOU are the one that owns the land, and have your blood, sweat, tears, worry, and years invested in it, besides money. You explained the rules to him. YOU spent the time on the tractor planting the field (or spent YOUR money to pay someone to do it). YOU bought the seed and fertilizer, and possibly also herbicide. YOU are gambling your land and lifestyle on the vicissitudes of weather, market, and government, every time you put in a crop, and the LAST thing you need is some dipstick driving across your crop. I would have blown a gasket too.

To the non-farmers in here: What this guy did is the equivalent of letting him use your office, or whatever you have that you make your living with, and you tell him how you want it used and the condition to leave it in, but then he trashes it and takes a dump in the middle of your desk.

After 4 or 5 years or so, and IF he's willing to spend some of his time and sweat to make things right, you MIGHT consider letting him make ammends, but only if you really feel like he needs a second chance, and only if he is truly sorry for what he did.

At 35 years of age, I think you did the right thing. I suspect you will take a yield reduction where he drove, especially since he traveled over the field twice in the same place. The bigger issue is he had no respect for your property or crop. By the way, I spent 7 years in Manhattan KS, great duck hunting area on the Kaw river.

You got to keep focused on why you gave permission for your son's friend to hunt on your land. He is your son's friend of and they wanted to hunt together. The rest of the family did not have permission and should not have expected to hunt on your land.

It might be better if you talk to your son a bit about this issue. Tell him that every person who hunts on your land must have permission from you. That when you give permission for his friend to hunt you did not want his brother and father to think that they could hunt also. Next time that happens you won't let anyone hunt. Your son must make sure that his hunting buddies understand this.

I would write a permission slip to give to all guests before they hunt on your property. Something like the following:

I give permission for Bob Smith to hunt on my property on 10/20/03 from 6am - 6pm under the supervision of my son Little If It Flies It Dies. No one other than the invited guest has permission to hunt or tresspass on my property.

The permission will be withdraw and hunt cancelled if uninvited guests show up, the guest is careless, causes damage or fails to follow instructions of my family members or employees. The guest is responsible for all damage and injuries that he causes.

This probably could use some refinement and a review by a lawyer, but it should make your life easier.

Conrad