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Posted By: Beoceorl Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
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McNamara, defense chief during Vietnam War, dies
By PETE YOST and MIKE FEINSILBER, Associated Press Writer Pete Yost And Mike Feinsilber, Associated Press Writer 16 mins ago

WASHINGTON � Robert S. McNamara, the cerebral secretary of defense who was vilified for his role in escalating the Vietnam War, a role he later deeply regretted, died Monday. He was 93.

McNamara died at 5:30 a.m. at his home, his wife Diana told The Associated Press. She said he had been in failing health for some time.

McNamara was fundamentally associated with the Vietnam War, "McNamara's war," the country's most disastrous foreign venture, the only American war to end in abject withdrawal rather than victory.

Known as a policymaker with a fixation for statistical analysis, McNamara was recruited to run the Pentagon by President John F. Kennedy in 1961 from the presidency of the Ford Motor Co. � where he and a group of colleagues had been known as the "whiz kids." He stayed in the defense post for seven years, longer than anyone since the job's creation in 1947.

His association with Vietnam became intensely personal. Even his son, as a Stanford University student, protested against the war while his father was running it. At Harvard, McNamara once had to flee a student mob through underground utility tunnels. Critics mocked McNamara mercilessly; they made much of the fact that his middle name was "Strange."

After leaving the Pentagon on the verge of a nervous breakdown, McNamara became president of the World Bank and devoted evangelical energies to the belief that improving life in rural communities in developing countries was a more promising path to peace than the buildup of arms and armies.

A private person, McNamara for many years declined to write his memoirs, to lay out his view of the war and his side in his quarrels with his generals. In the early 1990s he began to open up. He told Time magazine in 1991 that he did not think the bombing of North Vietnam � the biggest bombing campaign in history up to that time � would work but he went along with it "because we had to try to prove it would not work, number one, and (because) other people thought it would work."

Finally, in 1993, after the Cold War ended, he undertook to write his memoirs because some of the lessons of Vietnam were applicable to the post-Cold War period "odd as though it may seem."

"In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam" appeared in 1995. McNamara disclosed that by 1967 he had deep misgivings about Vietnam � by then he had lost faith in America's capacity to prevail over a guerrilla insurgency that had driven the French from the same jungled countryside.

Despite those doubts, he had continued to express public confidence that the application of enough American firepower would cause the Communists to make peace. In that period, the number of U.S. casualties � dead, missing and wounded � went from 7,466 to over 100,000.

"We of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations acted according to what we thought were the principles and traditions of our country. But we were wrong. We were terribly wrong," McNamara, then 78, told The Associated Press in an interview ahead of the book's release.

The best-selling mea culpa renewed the national debate about the war and prompted bitter criticism against its author. "Where was he when we needed him?" a Boston Globe editorial asked. A New York Times editorial referred to McNamara as offering the war's dead only a "prime-time apology and stale tears, three decades late."

McNamara wrote that he and others had not asked the five most basic questions: "Was it true that the fall of South Vietnam would trigger the fall of all Southeast Asia? Would that constitute a grave threat to the West's security? What kind of war � conventional or guerrilla � might develop? Could we win it with U.S. troops fighting alongside the South Vietnamese? Should we not know the answers to all these questions before deciding whether to commit troops?

He discussed similar themes in the 2003 documentary "The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara." With the U.S. in the first year of the war in Iraq, it became a popular and timely art-house attraction and won the Oscar for best documentary feature.

The Iraq war, with its similarities to Vietnam, at times brought up McNamara's name, in many cases in comparison with another unpopular defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld. McNamara was among former secretaries of defense and state who met twice with President Bush in 2006 to discuss Iraq war policies.

In the Kennedy administration, McNamara was a key figure in both the disastrous Bay of Pigs invasion of April 1961 and the Cuban missile crisis 18 months later. The crisis was the closest the world came to a nuclear confrontation between the Soviet Union and the United States.

McNamara served as the World Bank president for 12 years. He tripled its loans to developing countries and changed its emphasis from grandiose industrial projects to rural development.

After retiring in 1981, he championed the causes of nuclear disarmament and aid by the richest nation for the world's poorest. He became a global elder statesman.

McNamara's trademarks were his rimless glasses and slicked down hair and his reliance on quantitative analysis to reach conclusions, calmly promulgated in a husky voice.

He was born June 9, 1916, in San Francisco, son of the sales manager for a wholesale shoe company. At the University of California at Berkeley, he majored in mathematics, economics and philosophy.

As a professor at the Harvard Business School when World War II started, he helped train Army Air Corps officers in cost-effective statistical control. In 1943, he was commissioned an Army officer and joined a team of young officers who developed a new field of statistical control of supplies.

McNamara and his colleagues sold themselves to the Ford organization as a package and revitalized the company. The group became known as the "whiz kids" and McNamara was named the first Ford president who was not a descendant of Henry Ford.

A month later, the newly elected Kennedy invited McNamara, a registered Republican, him to join his Cabinet. Taking the $25,000-a-year job cost McNamara $3 million in profit from Ford stocks and options.

As defense chief, McNamara reshaped America's armed forces for "flexible response" and away from the nuclear "massive retaliation" doctrine espoused by former Secretary of State John Foster Dulles. He asserted civilian control of the Pentagon and applied cost-accounting techniques and computerized systems analysis to defense spending.

Early on, Kennedy regarded South Vietnam as an area threatened by Communist aggression and a providing ground for his new emphasis on counterinsurgency forces. A believer in the domino theory � that countries could fall to communism like a row of dominoes � Kennedy dispatched U.S. "advisers" to bolster the Saigon government. Their numbers surpassed 16,000 by the time of his assassination.

Following Kennedy's assassination, President Lyndon Johnson retained McNamara as "the best in the lot" of Kennedy Cabinet members and the man to keep Vietnam from falling to the Communists.

When U.S. naval vessels were allegedly attacked off the North Vietnamese coast in 1964, McNamara lobbied Congress to pass the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, which Johnson used as the equivalent of a congressional declaration of war.

McNamara visited Vietnam � the first of many trips � and returned predicting that American intervention would enable the South Vietnamese, despite internal feuds, to stand by themselves "by the end of 1965."

That was an early forerunner of a seemingly endless string of official "light at the end of the tunnel" predictions of American success. Each was followed by more warfare, more American troops, more American casualties, more American bombing, more North Vietnamese infiltration � and more predictions of an early end to America's commitment.


Link to story
About time too. What a total POS.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
About time too. What a total POS.


That's probably one of the nicer things I've heard said about him.
I don't know which one was more contemptible.....his cooking the books in Vietnam, or his later craven knee crawling butt kissing the anti-American left.
Posted By: CEJ1895 Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
Another scum bag on his way to hell.. Way overdue..
may he burn
Posted By: Ivan Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
His shenanigans cost America inordinate hemorrhaging of blood and treasure.

Alive, I was inclined to say eff that guy. But dead, now that he can do no more harm, I wish him well on his journey to the other side.
Posted By: Gus Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
yep, McNamara disappointed a bunch of us; now, he's dead and gone.

Good Riddance might me something that should be placed upon his headstone?
Originally Posted by Ivan
His shenanigans cost America inordinate hemorrhaging Alive, I was inclined to say eff that guy. But dead, now that he can do no more harm, I wish him well on his journey to Hell


Fixed it.
He's probably riding to Hell in an Edsel.

Hmm, sounds like a good working title for another biography.
Posted By: Tod Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
It took the US military 30 years to recover from McNamara and his whiz kids. No tears here.
Hoping he meets just desserts and a warm environment. His stature as a rectal orifice of epic proportions is exceeded only by LBJ....and mebbe B.Obama.
Posted By: Gus Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
yep, the ones that lived through it had a chance at recovery.

those who died, well, they got there before the rest of us, i reckon?
Posted By: MILES58 Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
He is one of very few people on whose firing squad I would have been proud to serve. I would bring my own rifle and buy my own bullets for the job.
Originally Posted by EvilTwin
Originally Posted by Ivan
His shenanigans cost America inordinate hemorrhaging Alive, I was inclined to say eff that guy. But dead, now that he can do no more harm, I wish him well on his journey to Hell


Fixed it.


Much better
The country is on a roll here lately. It just keeps getting better a little at a time.

First Michael Jackson, and now this piece of garbage.
I am not feeling the love for either Jacko or McNamare here. smile
Posted By: djs Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
It is interesting to observe that McNamara was deeply introspective and willing to question his own decisions. It is often forgotten that he was one of the original advocates of the firebombing of Tokyo (in which as many burned to death as were killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - 100,000+). General Curtis LeMay told McNamara prior to the bombing that "If we lose this war, we will be prosecuted as war criminals".

McNamara knew that WW2 was a barbaric as any war and that it needed to be stopped ASAP. The Japanese Kamikaze attacks just solidified the need to end the war quickly so US troops would not need to invade Japan proper - losses would be high. In fact, so many Purple Heart medals were made in preparation for the invasion (and the expected casualties) that ALL the Purple Hearts awarded since 1945 have come from this production.

Unfortunately, Tex Thornton�s "Whiz Kids" (McNamara was one of them) thought that quantitative analysis was the end-all and could solve any problem. In the early 1960's, when the decision was made to replace the M-14 with the M-16 rifle, they ordered the M-16 into production without a developmental process. This led (among other things) to the rifle not having chrome bores and chambers (since Stoner's prototypes lacked the plating) and combat failures when cases failed to eject.

On the other hand, the "Whiz Kids" uses quantitative analysis to optimize ocean search patterns for downed pilots. Many were saved due to this analysis.
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On the other hand, the "Whiz Kids" uses quantitative analysis to optimize ocean search patterns for downed pilots. Many were saved due to this analysis.


djs, thats like saying "after he lit the fire that killed most of the people, he did manage to pull a few to safety"

see what I mean? He gets no kudos for that at all.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
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On the other hand, the "Whiz Kids" uses quantitative analysis to optimize ocean search patterns for downed pilots. Many were saved due to this analysis.


djs, thats like saying "after he lit the fire that killed most of the people, he did manage to pull a few to safety"

see what I mean? He gets no kudos for that at all.


ANYTHING to say something nice about a democrap. djs, if we follow your logic, I guess we can say nice things about Hitler and his hand in the development of the VW. Like someone else said, he costs us tens of thousands of American lives. jorge
Good Riddence. Long overdue. If there were any justice in the world, he'd have done the "Hussein Dangle" for his crimes.
Posted By: djs Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
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On the other hand, the "Whiz Kids" uses quantitative analysis to optimize ocean search patterns for downed pilots. Many were saved due to this analysis.


djs, thats like saying "after he lit the fire that killed most of the people, he did manage to pull a few to safety"

see what I mean? He gets no kudos for that at all.


Even though the "ones he pulled to safety" were US Navy, Marine and Air Corps personnel who ditched as a result of enemy fire or low fuel?

The ones that the firebombing saved were US Marines and soldiers, the invasion force.

Remember, those "extra" Purple Heats that were made for the invasion of Japan have been used for the wounded in Korea, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War (Kuwait and Iraq), Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq and, we still have lots left!

Forget any Japanese he "saved" with the firebombing, I am referring to the US military who WERE NOT killed or wounded. The invasion was estimated to cost the US over 1,000,000 casualties - these are ones I feel he saved.

The US Navy fliers that were rescued (probably numbering in the high hundreds) through this analysis were icing on the cake.
Posted By: djs Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
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On the other hand, the "Whiz Kids" uses quantitative analysis to optimize ocean search patterns for downed pilots. Many were saved due to this analysis.


djs, thats like saying "after he lit the fire that killed most of the people, he did manage to pull a few to safety"

see what I mean? He gets no kudos for that at all.


ANYTHING to say something nice about a democrap. djs, if we follow your logic, I guess we can say nice things about Hitler and his hand in the development of the VW. Like someone else said, he costs us tens of thousands of American lives. jorge


Actually, McNamara was a Republican, a point he made when Kennedy selected him for Secretary of Defense (he had been President of Ford Motor Company).
Posted By: Lee24 Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
40 years too late.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
He didn't do jack djs. Other aviators in airplanes with radar, FLIR, visual, etc saved lives. Mengele was a doctor that saved lies as well. This guy was bad news. jorge
they should bury him under an outhouse so the Viet Vets can pay him tribute properly.
Posted By: T LEE Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/06/09
Originally Posted by MILES58
He is one of very few people on whose firing squad I would have been proud to serve. I would bring my own rifle and buy my own bullets for the job.


As would I!
I have a picture of McMuckup in discussion with a consultant. As usual, they are all knotted up with indecision:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: djs Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
Originally Posted by jorgeI
He didn't do jack djs. Other aviators in airplanes with radar, FLIR, visual, etc saved lives. Mengele was a doctor that saved lies as well. This guy was bad news. jorge


During WW2, FLIR did not exist and radar was rudemetary. Ocean search areas were large and using quantitive analysis and modeling, the area to be searched was reduced. Focusing a limited quantity of eyeballs and search planes on a smaller area led to more aviators being picked up.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
Originally Posted by djs

During WW2, FLIR did not exist and radar was rudemetary.
Duh...

And you continue to miss the point. Just because he allegedly contributed to a search pattern does not even begin to offset the pain and suffering he caused as a result of his idiotic policies during Vietnam. Whatever his alleged theory during WWII saved, he more than negated it by the hundreds of aviators lost, captured and tortured in Vietnam thanks to him. jorge
Posted By: BCBrian Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
So, were the protestors who spoke out against "McNamara's War" in an effort to stop it - the real heroes - or were they the villians?

I'm confused - are you guys pissed that he was the architect of that war - or are you pissed that he eventually came to believe it was one big huge mistake?

Help me understand your hatred of this man.
Thinking neither on the hero issue.
Posted By: wyliec Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
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On the other hand, the "Whiz Kids" uses quantitative analysis to optimize ocean search patterns for downed pilots. Many were saved due to this analysis.


djs, thats like saying "after he lit the fire that killed most of the people, he did manage to pull a few to safety"

see what I mean? He gets no kudos for that at all.


ANYTHING to say something nice about a democrap. djs, if we follow your logic, I guess we can say nice things about Hitler and his hand in the development of the VW. Like someone else said, he costs us tens of thousands of American lives. jorge


Only so much some of can take of your pathetic crap too.......flows both ways.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
Originally Posted by BCBrian
So, were the protestors who spoke out against "McNamara's War" in an effort to stop it - the real heroes - or were they the villians?

I'm confused - are you guys pissed that he was the architect of that war - or are you pissed that he eventually came to believe it was one big huge mistake?

Help me understand your hatred of this man.


Nice try, but I'm afraid if you have to ask, you lack the capability to comprehend. jorge
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
Originally Posted by wyliec

Only so much some of can take of your pathetic crap too.......flows both ways.


It appears we have yet another democrap with grammar issues...jorge
Posted By: BCBrian Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
No lack of capability here - I'm just a Canuck. grin

I don't understand a lot of things pertaining to America and Americans.
Posted By: Lee24 Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
McNamara was a political hack, part of the Havard "brain trust" with which John Kennedy surrounded himself.

As Jorge said, these idiots tried to micromanage the war for political image, not military effectiveness, timing bombing raids to match press events back the the states. They ordered B-52 runs over the tops of SAM missile emplacements, marked off hundreds of targets as untouchable, breaking off campaigns to give the NVA time to resupply, and everything else they could think of to make the war more dangerous for our pilots and crews.

Don't even get me started on the ground war.
Posted By: LouisB Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
Just remember the stench around his grave will be unbelievable where all the Viet Nam era vets go piss on him one last time.

DANG I meant to write him and explain his future while he was still alive, and could contemplate it during his final few years. Hopefully it would weigh heavily on his daily life.

No telling how many good men died or were severely wounded because he and his dufus president thought they could run the war from DC.

A SALUTE to all of you that did your job well, in spite of the quality of the commander in chief and some of his staff.
BCBrian,just an example of McNamarras bean counting.

the F105 thunderchief airplane could carry 8 500 lb bombs,2 tons of bombs,but he thought if we send out more airplanes with less bombs in each plane we'll get higher sortie #'s and look better on paper.
so 4 times the number of airplanes went out and because the f105 wasn't designed to do the job it was doing,it got shot down more than any other airplane in the Vietnam war.

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I'm confused - are you guys pissed that he was the architect of that war - or are you pissed that he eventually came to believe it was one big huge mistake?


You are confused. Architect? ROTF here, you should do stand up.

Mistake? You ever heard of the TFX. Surely you recall the Aardvark? That was his huge mistake.

Being as how you're from Canada it's not clear you have a dog in this race anyway. Sure as hell would not expect you to understand any of this since it wasn't your bag. Best you can do with this is walk away. It's not your wart.
Posted By: pjf Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
McNamara�s strategy of �cost effectiveness� won the Cold War. The Soviets who paid scant attention to costs went bankrupt.

In addition to promoting weapons standardization, McNamara backed submarine-launched ballistic missiles that the Soviets could never counter. Had the military gotten their way, the navy would have built more aircraft carriers for a �Forward Strategy,� the air force would have built more high-flying un-stealthy bombers, and the Soviets would have easily countered us.

McNamara did let the generals get their way in operational planning. Our Vietnam strategy was devised by the brass who predicted a short and easy war. McNamara�s �Whiz Kids� stayed out of operational planning for Vietnam but correctly concluded that the strategy promoted by the generals was a losing one (Enthoven, "How Much is Enough").

A better strategy for Vietnam would have been to cut off the infiltration by holding a line from the DMZ to Thailand. The South Vietnamese proposed that but Westmoreland and the brass ignored it. The senior officers in our military have already accepted blame for Vietnam (Summers, "On Strategy"). Let�s not denigrate McNamara, the real hero of the Cold War.
Posted By: dave09 Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/07/09
Good,way late.
Those who worship the JFK "Camelot" need to be reminded that Kennedy hired the man who thought up the Edsel to "remake" our military.
So McNamara is dead, I'll drink to that! The SOB could have gotten me killed for what he knew was a lost cause. I reported for induction (draft, #58, [bleep] deferments) and they sent us all home because word was out that the draft would end the next day. Was nice, I got to finish school before signing up.
Posted By: Foxbat Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/09/09
Originally Posted by pjf
McNamara�s strategy of �cost effectiveness� won the Cold War. The Soviets who paid scant attention to costs went bankrupt.

In addition to promoting weapons standardization, McNamara backed submarine-launched ballistic missiles that the Soviets could never counter. Had the military gotten their way, the navy would have built more aircraft carriers for a �Forward Strategy,� the air force would have built more high-flying un-stealthy bombers, and the Soviets would have easily countered us.

McNamara did let the generals get their way in operational planning. Our Vietnam strategy was devised by the brass who predicted a short and easy war. McNamara�s �Whiz Kids� stayed out of operational planning for Vietnam but correctly concluded that the strategy promoted by the generals was a losing one (Enthoven, "How Much is Enough").

A better strategy for Vietnam would have been to cut off the infiltration by holding a line from the DMZ to Thailand. The South Vietnamese proposed that but Westmoreland and the brass ignored it. The senior officers in our military have already accepted blame for Vietnam (Summers, "On Strategy"). Let�s not denigrate McNamara, the real hero of the Cold War.


This is a joke right?
Posted By: LouisB Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/11/09
I am pissed that a lot o good men were killed or captured because him and the idiot he worked for decided they could run the war and especially some of the air war issues.


His admission in his later years were his way of think he deserved sympathy.

For all those dead and those who were captured thanks to his and johnson's military expertise i hope he rots in hell.

I could say what I really think, but then I may work myself up to a "Big Huff".
I think a lot of the anger hear should at least be partially directed at McCarthy and the Red Scare in the early 50s. After the fall of China to communism there was many accusations that the government, and particulary the state department, was infiltrated with communists. Because of this many of the experts on the Asian region in the state department left. Later the US fought a defensive war in Vietnam, trying to avoid confrontation with China like with the Korean war. Without the asian experts the significance of the Sino-Soviet split wasn't realized until during the Nixon presidency with reaproachment, which helped lead to a US pullout of Vietnam and ultimaly detente. In fact, during the Vietnam War the Chinese were keeping materials that were shipped through China from the USSR to Vietnam. If the US had realized the significace of the split they might have won.
alot of THUD pilots ended up in the Hanoi Hilton because of this guy.
Posted By: pjf Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/11/09
It was General Westmoreland that outlined the 3-point plan to win the war in Vietnam. He predicted victory by 1967 (U.S. Department of Defense, U.S.-Vietnam Relations vol. 4, pp 117�119. and vol. 5, pp 8�12).

President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara gave General Westmoreland all the men and material he originally asked for. When it was clear that Westmoreland�s strategy had failed, McNamara quit. Clark Clifford, who replaced McNamara, asked the generals what our new strategy should be. The generals had no winning strategy to replace Westmoreland�s failed strategy.

The North Vietnamese strategy was to fight a protracted war and outlast us. Kissinger and Nixon knew that we could not win a protracted war. In an attempt to negotiate �peace with honor,� they prosecuted the war longer than McNamara did and blamed the loss on the South Vietnamese.

In the end, the senior officers of the military accepted blame for the military failure in Vietnam (Summers, �On Strategy�). McNamara�s �Whiz kids� should have questioned the generals more forcefully instead of letting them go forward with their flawed Vietnam strategy. Fortunately, the "Whiz Kids" prevailed with their "cost effectiveness" strategy to bankrupt the Soviets and win the Cold War.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/11/09
Actually the McCarthy "Red Scare" was accurate, sort of. He claimed there were only about 8 or 9 embedded Soviet agents in our administration. in 1992 when the Soviet union collapsed and KGB records revealed, it was closer to 100. McCarthy was right, he was just vilified unfairly. As to Westmoreland, he was given a set of rules that he couldn't deviate. The bombing of the North was strictly a McNamara/LBJ/DoD issue. The "Route Packs" there were six, were all crafted by them and there was NO deviation. So all the gooks had to do was concentrate their AAA & SAMs along those routes and shoot us down at will. We weren't allowed to bomb the railways coming from China, nor the ports dams, etc. I remember reading back then when the Pentagon complained about a Cuban cargo ship, full of sugar left Havana, proceeded through OUR Panama Canal, went all the way to N. Korea and unloaded. Loaded up with ammo, SAMs & other war supplies, then sailed south right under the noses of our 7th Fleet and disgorged it's cargo in Haiphong. McNamara and LBJ FORBADE us to interfere. Piss on his grave. jorge
All this "woulda coulda shoulda" retrospective musing is cute but pointless. To understand Vietnam, you had to have been there long enough for all your clothes to turn pink-orange and rot off your body.

To those of us who were there, McNamara and Johnson were the original Dumb and Dumber, except that their idiocy got lots of our brothers killed or tortured. Nothing can change that, not even their late-in-life realizations and admissions.

And because that fact cannot be changed, neither can the minds of Viet Vets.
Six points for Rocky.

Was kinda used to that laterite blush on my clothes...skin....teeth....still have some socks that look like that.
Posted By: Gene L Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/11/09
McNamara is the guy who came up with his Vietnam "bullets per body count" formula. You fired so many bullets, or rockets, whatever, you were expected to have so many bods dead. He also tried to save money by removing one button from the rear pocket of khaki uniforms.

I used to teach aboard the U.S.S. America, a McNamara ship that was plumbed with construction grade plumbing (among other cost saving steps)rather than ship-grade plumbing. It was constantly leaking and the ship was worn out albeit after 30-something years. This was the story; don't know if it was true.

I think he was a dip in life, but don't wish him ill after his death. I don't think he was evil, he was just a jerk and a number-crunching dickweed.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/11/09
Originally Posted by Gene L


I used to teach aboard the U.S.S. America, a McNamara ship that was plumbed with construction grade plumbing (among other cost saving steps)rather than ship-grade plumbing. It was constantly leaking and the ship was worn out albeit after 30-something years. This was the story; don't know if it was true.


It's true. Both America (CV 66) and JFK (CV 67) were originally supposed to be nukes and McNamara (and under pressure form the Kennedy klan) changed them both to oil burners. Both ships had HUGE piping issues contributing for early retirement of both ships. jorge

PS: Great post Rocky. j
Originally Posted by BCBrian
So, were the protestors who spoke out against "McNamara's War" in an effort to stop it - the real heroes - or were they the villians?

I'm confused - are you guys pissed that he was the architect of that war - or are you pissed that he eventually came to believe it was one big huge mistake?

Help me understand your hatred of this man.


BC

The protestors I encountered were anything but heroes. A bunch of jerk, rebellious, vulgar, hell-raising dopers usually. About as worthless a group of indiviuals as I've ever met. Sadly they have grown up to control the US's education system.

Only a Viet vet (and I'm not one) can completely understand their hatred of McNamara, but it includes things like the micromanaging mentioned above, restraining field commanders efforts and such. IMHO he shares the guilt of Viet Nam with Johnson, Westmoreland (to a lesser extent) and a lot of others whose names we've forgotten.

One of his "successes" was to apply business purchasing practices (standardization) to the DoD - I thought that was a good idea until talking to an Army combat engineer vet. Chuck started out with an M14 and was switched to the early M16 mid-tour; he explained what a comfort it was in the middle of the long dark night to know that his rifle had been supplied by the lowest bidder.
Son, EVERYTHING in the military came from the lowest bidder - even those infamous $600 toilet seats. Ponder THAT a while.

About 99% of the cost of everything the government buys is for the paperwork the government demands from companies, beginning with the reams of documentation just for the privilege of bidding. Consider what your taxes would be if all that "stuff" came from the highest bidder. Not a pretty thought.

Posted By: Gene L Re: Robert S. McNamara is Dead - 07/11/09
I'm a Viet Nam vet who doesn't hate anyone from that period. Less than fond of some, but Hate? Nah.

What's to hate McNamara for? He was a lousy S of D, but so have 90% of the other S o Ds since then, and likely before then.

So much vitriol! It diminishes "hate" if you're willing to squander such an emotion on someone like McNamara.
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