I posted this in the European forum but haven't got a reply yet. I tried to delete it there but the system wouldn't let me so this is a duplicate post - but I hope it gets more action here.

It was my first day out with the Cape gun with the new rear site installed. 12 gauge side worked just dandy with low pressure 2 � inch shells. The rifle side held a surprise for me.

I had bought the piece with the understanding that the rifle barrel was 38-55. It even came with two boxes of 38-55. 38-55 cartridges chamber. Pieper made a 12 and 38-55 combo that looks just like my gun. In short, I had every reason to believe it was 38-55 except for a stamp saying so.

My first shot was with a very low pressure load. Just 6 � grains of Red Dot powder behind a 250 grain .375 projectile. The first shot did not clear the barrel.

I tapped it out with a rod and noticed that the rifling had left deep imprints from the lands. The grooves did not leave any marks on the projectile. So it was touching the lands but not filling the full bore. This is a good thing since when I put a caliper on the projectile at home (by default I had �slugged� the bore) I found that it had been reduced from .375 to .365 (actually 364.5)!

I do NOT have a 38-55. I have a rimmed, straight walled 9.xx Chambering of .365 diameter. In addition to the .365 bore I found that a loaded 38-55 cartridge is still � inch short of the rifling. Hmmm�.. What the heck is it? I don�t know yet.

The underside of the rifle barrel has numerous proof marks including �Express� but nothing to indicate the chambering. Except possibly an 8.8 stamped some distance away from all other marks.

What does 8.8 mm convert to in caliber? 364 or 365?

Could it be the old 360 Nitro Express? Does anyone have information on that cartridge (especially projectile diameter?). My gun has a patent date of 1881 so the timing would be about right....

Any other guesses? Advice?

photos attached

Do you still have my fone number??? If ya do gimme a ring

I suspect it is the same-same caliber as this:

9.3 x 57R ?????

9,3x72R.

Thanks for the help!
looking forward to seeing you and your toys tomorrow

Nice of the previous owner to pass on the wrong ammo! I wonder if he ever shot it, or shot it and realized something was wrong?

Old/Unusual guns are cool but I also had to learn the hard way that chamber casts, and/or headspace gauges are your friend

You need to do a chamber cast. It could be a 9,3x57 R 360.

Also can you post some photos of the proof marks on the barrels?

I'll get some photos of the proof marks up hopefully this evening. Here are some photos of the general exterior (I know - they aren't much help for this discussion).

meanwhile - Thanks for all the input!
I really appreciate the information.

I�m linking up with EvilTwin tonight and we will check specs against his 9.3x72R cartridges. More to follow�.

Touch one off in ET backyard, I wanna know how it goes.

diameter looked good but the 9.3x72R was about a half inch too long....I'm thinking 9.3x57R might be just the ticket....

The rifle is in pretty nice shape. It has the "doll's head" lock-up. Not off the face though. A BP cartridge almost definitely. Mike is a Helluva nice fella. Hopefully soon I can drag him over to the Darkside!!

It aint that far from where I is
ET isn't nearly as evil as he makes out to be. I appreciate the help too.

Messgn,
Keep us posted as to what caliber it turns out to be. I live in the country and could use a cape gun. When I go outside at night ,to sort out a problem, I never know if I need a shotgun or a rifle. It looks like a really handy tool.

Slim1

Will do. I figure it will be perfect for deer hunting in partridge country....

I took a dozen or so photos of the proofs but need a better camera or better light to make them clear. So far I have identified 4 Belgian proofs. I see now where the prior owner got 38-55 from there are two stamps on the water table � one is a 38 and slightly to the right is 55. He assures me that he fired 38-55 through the gun. I see no evidence of damage and the action locks up tight, so this old girl was well built.

Here are the best pics I have so far. Found a fellow selling 9.3 projectiles and bought them. Now we just need to confirm the chamber length.

FYI, Buffalo Arms 9.3x57R cases (based off 30-40 Krag brass)are too long, BUT 38-55 cases with a .365 bullet (jacketed or cast) works just dandy with 8 grains of Red Dot. Now for hunting load developement!

Well, that'd mean that .30-30 cases should work, too. Not like there's a shortage of those...

Sounds like what you may have a .360 Express (2"), or a 9.3x52(53?)R

Humm... Really hard to see the marks in the photos. If you get better photos I can look them up in my proof marks book. I may have missed this but, is it an English gun or one from the continent?

A chamber cast (and measurement) is the only sure wayy to know.

It's a Belgian Gun (Henry Pieper) and I have matched half a dozen proofs. It has everything marked except what cartridge.
Two inches sounds about right for the length. And fire formed brass is straight walled.

Took lots of pics - these are teh best of them. Thanks for any help!

I am now convinced that the rifle side of my cape gun is 9.3X57R aka 360 Nitro Express. When I initially rec�d the 9.3x57R cases of virgin brass from Buffalo Arms and found that they would not chamber, I assumed that it was because they were too long. I was wrong. The reason that they would not chamber is because the base of the case was too wide. After attempting to trim one of the cases to a length that would fit (and finding that it never would fit no matter how short) � I ran the virgin brass in my 38-55 sizing die. This reduced the width at the base of the cartridge from .421 to .420 � not much change, but enough. They all work beautifully now. The 2 � inch cartridge length chambers just fine, even with a bullet seated.

Now, on to load development! I�m starting with 17 grains of 2400 and working my way up�.

Drop tube the case FULL of FFG Express,jam a card wad ove it and seat your bullet. Huntington has 9,3 cast for .364 diameter.

Confirmation - proof marks confirm it as a 360 Express aka 9.3x57R aka 360 Express:

"I can see only the usual Liege, Belgium blackpowder proofmarks! On the action flat there is the "Perron", the symbol of the City of Liege, and a "V under star", a Belgian inspectors personal stamp. Under the rifle barrel there is the "EL" blackpowder proofmark, The "ELG in oval under crown", the Liege proofhouse acceptance mark in use from 1893, and the "R under crown" which in Liege marks proof of a rifled barrel. "8.8"mm is the correct bore (not rifling or bullet!)diameter for both the 9.3x72R and it's forerunner, the 9.3x57R aka .360 BPExpress."

And cases and bullets from Buffalo arms produce VERY satisfactory results with mild smokeless powder loads

very cool. looking at one of those now.

Very cool. I hope to hunt with mine this fall