They seem like the finest quality, best performing, but year after year lead the list in the most unreliable from Consumer's Report and Edmonds.

BMW, Mercedes, Audi, all far below the Japanese and even GM cars in reliability. Are they pushing technology to hard, too fast, or is it poor workmanship?

Unreliable in the sense that they leave you stranded, or in the sense that you have to go to the shop for some annoyance?

My guess would be they globalized and are sourcing parts and labor from Eastern Europe and Asia.

My wife's Mercedes has 170k on the odo, and has been fairly reliable, but the catalytic converters going out at 130k was a major expense. Its replacement will most likely be another mercedes.

OP, i'm not so sure i believe that.

Having been with both German & Japanese auto manufacturing, IMO, the basic answer lies in that the Germans focus on "high tech" gadgetry in many cases while the Nipponese focus much more on reliability across the board.

Simple answer to a complicated situation & many exceptions in both cases.

MM

I use a ford van and have looked at a few ford forums mostly pickups forums and not many complaints.

Got interested in the Sprinter van made by mercedes but the sprinter forum is filled or over run with complaints of poor cheap build quality.

But the sprinter is priced twice the price of an econoline.

Here is the Consumer's report, Edmond mirror it.

Consumer's Report.

VW has been last or close, on JD Power for years.

Mercedes was near the bottom of that list for a few years as well.

I never relied on Consumer reports. Just to prove them wrong, I put 175,000 trouble free miles on a 1984 Chevy Citation X-11, 378,000 miles on a 1990 Pontiac 6000STE, and currently, 72,000 miles on a 2005 Pontiac GTO. Consumables -brakes, clutches, etc, are serviced and replaced as needed, but no catastrophic failures. Ya just gotta take care of whatever you have. They are all pretty good nowadays.

CR is a joke for cars. Their data pool is a small fraction of that which JD Power uses.

Can't say that's been the case for us. Have had an Audi of some sort in the garage for 30 years. First one was a Fox...now have a TT.

Why opinions vary so much. There is a difference between a car that needs service "all the time" when actually just needed replacement wear-out components and stringent manufacturers standards, vs. an always down for electrical gremlins, trans issues, sundry design flaws. Surely are european examples of both. People's perception.

It's crazy how much shear neglect gf's toyota has absorbed. But, have had three european cars that proved bomb proof with regular maintenance. Who knows; i can tell CR which one I'd rather drive in any event.

My Jetta TDI was absolutely flawless, and got nearly 50 mpg. One thing about a German car, you can drive it for 8 hours and actually get out of it without complaining about your back, and that's coming from a guy with a VERY bad back. Ergonomics abound in the German cars....... the US mfg's will never get it.

Well let's try something different, can anyone supply any documentation, surveys or reports that contradict these ratings?

That plant they opened in Alabama drove down their reliabilty rating something fierce.

Had to close it and re-train employees....

BUBBA,,,"What is this here metrac system?"

BROTHER,,,"Why should I build these cars right fer dem rich azz honkies..."

JM

Consumer reports and JD powers are both jokes. Both of them focus on issues within the first year or so of ownership. The real test of quality is how long the thing lasts, and there are quite a few million mile mercedes diesels running around. When's the last time you saw a Ford or Chevy with a million miles? I'm guessing never.

CR and JD powers give similar weight in their ratings if the seat heater quits working or the transmission goes out. Of course, in the real world one's a very minor annoyance and the other will render the vehicle unusable. German vehicles also tend to require more expensive scheduled maintenance and any unscheduled maintenance is more expensive also. That blown transmission at 20K miles on a chevy might cost $1200 to fix, but that german car's seat heater might cost the same thing. There are also a lot more gadgets on german cars, they like all the electronic gadgets and those things go out more often, on the chevy they don't exist so they can't break.

The problem with CR and JD powers in my mind is that what they call reliability isn't what I consider reliability. I don't care if the radio goes out after two months, I'll take it in and get it fixed under warranty. I care if the vehicle holds together over 200,000 miles and I trust the germans to build a vehicle that will do that better than GM or Ford. Jap cars are another matter which is why there are two toyotas and one honda in my driveway. Two of those three jap cars were built in america by americans. However, they were designed with a philosophy of quality instead of the cost centered philosophy of U.S. car companies.

we had a 535 and a 318 that were both very reliable cars....we quit buying them because the dealership here was run by a-holes and we didn't want to deal with them. never had a problem with the cars.

Woulda figured you for a M5 guy..........

wouldn't mind one...they were wife's cars. I drive Suburbans, always have.

Well show me a study to contradict them, I'd be interested. Here is a ten year study that mirrors Japanese dominance in reliability.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/5657/

I mean I hear what you are saying, but then you tell me you have two Japanese cars in the driveway.

I was toying with the idea of buying a used BMW or Audi someday, when I looked into it I was discouraged. My friend has an expensive BMW, big heavy car with a V-12, he told me that when his brakes need replacing he just can't change the pads, the pads and rotors come as one now, very expensive brake jobs. Parts and service very expensive. Unreliable translating to expensive trips to the dealer.

If I were to buy a Certified German car someday, all of this has taught me to pony up for the extended warranty.

BMW is sourcing parts from their Chinese manufacturing plants.

Suspension components are a major problem area.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2007-06/23/content_900809.htm

American BMW 3 series are now made in South Africa.

Nothing screams quality like Africa....

I was taking issue with the CR and JD powers position that claims german cars are as unreliable as american cars, they aren't. Germans typically sell only their luxury models in the U.S. I'd buy them if they weren't so danged expensive but my wife and I put a lot of miles on vehicles and I can't afford to wear out a $50K car every five years. I've also been around long enough to know that I come out better financially if I buy a toyota camry and drive it for 300,000 miles than if I buy a chevy that dies after 150,000 miles, hence the japanese cars in the driveway.

Your friends BMW is a perfect example of what I was saying about expensive maintenance on german cars. Brakes are a wear item, sooner or later they're going to have to be replaced. That expensive brake job is another reason I don't have a german car, I can replace the brake pads on a camry for $12. If your friend bought a $70K V12 BMW then it would seem intuitive that maintenance on it was going to be expensive.

Yes, replacement parts and service for German cars is very expensive. I've generally stopped going to the dealer for servicing and have been doing repairs after having dropped $4k for two new catalytic convertors, 4 O2 sensors and labor to install it all.

Your best bet on getting a German car is to get one that is 3-5 years old, with 20-40k on the Odo. It's taken a big hit in depriciation, the new car gremlins have been worked out, and you shouldn't have any major repair items or uber expensive 100k services to worry about. When the odo hits 99k, sell it.

I just sold a 2004 325I sedan that was bought new, driven easy and regularly serviced.

It became a lawn ornament. I refused to take it on road trips because of it's history of problems.

Went to Florida in the Spring and Michigan in September. I drove my 12 year old Mazda Millenia instead of the BMW both times because it's been totally trustworthy since new.

The BMW was replaced with an Acura.

BMW=hype

Acura=quality

I think some of the compaints with Mercedes and BMW are due to fussy owners. I've known some owners for whom every little thing was a big deal, a major inconvenience, and they whine about little things that most of us take in stride.

BMW has been building cars in South Africa since the 70's.

One of my customers has a 2003 X5 4.4l that has over 410k miles on it. Engine is original, never had a valve job. Replaced the trans at 260k miles, and replaced the oil pump at 400k. Its been pretty bulletproof for him so far. Japanese car tend to nickel & dime you less, German cars just feel so much better on the road. For those that drive them, and are prepared for the extra maintenance, its worth it. (Great job security for me too ).

I'm not particularly fussy,...but when I buy a vehicle that's touts itself as being premium quality, I don't expect the ball joints and control arm to be completely trashed at 56,000 miles and I also don't expect them to have been made in China.

You will enjoy that Acura... Wife has a TL and it has been flawless.

ML

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/11/benz-and-beemer-start-food-co-op-for-chinese-parts/

Daimler AG plans to increase its sourcing of automotive components from China nearly eight-fold within four years. The luxury car maker will buy $3.25b worth of car components per year in China. Now, BMW is itching to get in on the act. Not that BMW is new to buying parts in China, they have done that for years, mostly unbeknown to their well-heeled customers.

But I doubt that X5 was built in South Africa. more likely SC, right?

Yep. The SA built cars are good, though, equal to the US built one in quality.

badger, were you going to soon, which BMW would you buy? Looking at an X5 for the wife, one that has been returned from lease. Any thoughts on beemers that were previously leased? Thanks.

I can't speak for their reliability, but it's a known fact that German cars, or any european cars for that matter, are expensive to service because of limited parts and service technicians knowledgeable enough to work on them. Fortunately, they don't appeal to me.

I have a 1989 560SEL (garaged and Sunday driven) that's built like a tank. She only has 89K miles on her and will likely run for another 400K miles. I can confirm that in 1989 Mercedes was light years ahead of any car maker in technology and safety.

If SHTF and the zombies come out this car will be my zombie killer.

I have a BMW Z4 with 50K on it, store it 5 months through the winter. It's been trouble free and one of the nicest cars I've every owed. We've had Hondas and Toyotas along the way and they were great cars but non compaired to the Z4.
Very worst car I've ever owned was a Chevy Monti Carlo, total POS, something that the union back in the mid 70's would be proud to produce.
One of the best running vehicles I've owned were a Ford F150 165K on it and a Chevy Suburban 155K. They ran great even after most of the body rusted away.

Beemers and Acuras? Aw hell, there goes my image of you rocking and rolling down a dusty road in some Kentucky backwater in a beat up pickup, mason jar in one hand and sumptin' else in t'other, Waylon what's his face blaring some Godawful noise out the busted window ...

Damn it.

The above is probably the reason.

The Germans focus on technology (e.g., BMW's iDrive control system that no one could figure out) while the Japanese focus on statistical quality control (W. Edwards Deming system - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming). Deming first offered the techniques to US automakers, but was rebuffed; he was invited to Japan and they adopted statistical quality control - the rest is history. The highest industrial award is Japan is the J. Edwards Deming Award.

Also, the German cars are not so unreliable, but when they break down, they are expensive to fix.

I think Lexus is a Japanese car that can rival the big three German makers, but seems to be a little more reliable...however I'm not sure if you can get 300K out of a Lexus.

I've owned one. A 528i. Never again.

Hillbillies are more eclectic than you would imagine.

And actually,..the Bimmers and Acuras are my wife's toys. (Realtor badges,..yanno?)

I drive a 2004 Nissan pick-up and a Burgman. (weird ass Mick badges)

300K out of a Lexus is very possible. When folks start talking cars everybody gets their hackles up. You can have good luck or bad with any of them. I had a 97 GMC that was a total POS. Fortunately warranty covered everything.I got rid of it when the warranty expired. I have a 2002 GMC with 260,000+ miles and it has been supurb. Water pump, alternator and just put on rear brakes. My next one might be another POS.
byc, the mileage you are quoting on yours indicate that you won't live long enough to see it hit 200K which will be 2040AD at the rate you are driving it.
Unless you are under 50yrs old.
Butch

The biggest problem over here with German cars is that they are rarer and mechanics are not as familiar with them.

As far as the overall build quality of the bodywork German cars are FAR superior to American made cars and most Japanese cars. I've worked on them all (bodywork not mechanical). I was astounded the other day when working on a higher end Caddilac as to how cheap the body panels were constructed. For example the decklid had simple folded metal edges, not even seam sealed. A $20,000 VW has far better body construction than a $80,000 Cadillac.

Having worked on them before and after I am strongly of the opinion that Chryslers influence and a quite adverse effect on Mercedes Benz' quality. They are just now recovering from them.

Most Japanese cars are made well. Lexus' are excellent. I've been surprised at how much Hyundai's have improved.

Again my POV is from a bodywork and construction standpoint not mechanical but having taken apart hundreds of cars from dozens of manufacturers you do start to develop opinions. And I am maybe a little favorably prejudiced towards Mercedes since the people at the factory were so nice to work with.................................DJ

Hm. I have a Ford Bronco, a Toyota Tacoma in the driveway, and the wife an Audi TT in the garage.

The Toyota will never quit -- 328,000 miles, original clutch. No repairs. I'd take that truck across country tomorrow, if needed.

The Bronco is basic transportation, but it's hanging by a thread. I wouldn't take it out of the county on a dare.

The Audi TT keeps the wife happy, and if she takes it to the dealer, I don't look at the bank statement that month. Electronic crap is starting to wig out -- and that stuff is stupid expensive. But did I mention it keeps the wife happy? FWIW, Dutch.

I have a 1997 Toyota 4-Runner with just over 200K miles on it. I have replaced brake rotors once (they are ready again), a battery and a starter.

Have skimmed this thread partly because I considered buying a used Jetta recently. Nice car in many ways, but it had a quirky glitch of some kind in the fan and AC, plus one of the power windows would not work, all of this on our test drive! If I turned off the engine, it fixed the fan/AC problem, sort of like rebooting a computer.

I asked two friends who own Jettas about them. Both of them said the engine drive train were excellent but they both had chronic "small" problems like power windows not working, door locks, interior lights, etc.

Try changing your own oil on a new VW. I fuggin' dare you....

Yup,

I wouldn't buy an off lease BMW simply because the driver of a leased BMW is going to change the oil when the car tells him to and not when common sense dictates. The Service Indicator will allow oil change intervals of up to 15k miles (BMW's have a 4 year 50k mile "free maintenance" package with the purchase). Funny how those oil change intervals doubled when the free maintenance was introduced. BMW knows the cars will probably go 100k miles with that kind of maintenance, but I know they won't go much further than that........

Exactly. They are really screwing people with that crap. Took my wife's in last week because the engine light came on and asked if they'd go ahead do the first oil change since it had been 10K and almost a year.

They smugly said no, not until 1 year or 15K miles. So now I have to waste my time again in a few weeks to drive 25 miles back to the dealership.

A$$holes. There is nothing magic about BMW filters and Castrol oil. They just figure the problems will be well after the warranty ends.

That you didn't correct me on the other details of my mental image is noted, and is good for a grin. There still is hope!

A bud had a 95 540i that had gotten the full Dinan 5 treatment. The thing was a damn rocket, but the maintenance broke his heart, and he finally dumped it.

Except for 40,000 miles or so in a Miata, the last two decades have been spent in Ford trucks of one type or another. The 04 F150 is paid for, and I'm not planning on buying anything new for a long time.

I grew up working on cars in Dad's garage, and love a responsive car, but I'd also like to retire, eventually...

I have Chevy's the wife has a Diesel Beetle. The bug gets 45mpg on the road, but has had a lot of little nuisance problems. My 2000 S-10 has had none.

If looking at a Jetta, get a wagon, and get the diesel. The Germans are very possessive about their wagons, and to the best of my knowledge they still assemble the wagons only in Wolfsburg. The rest of the line is US or Mexico. My Jetta TDI wagon was absolutely incredible. I would buy another one in a heartbeat.

I put 140K on the same make and model with zero issues over just over three years. Any guesses on what I traded it in for? 2005 Runner. Put over 70K on the clock on that one so far. 210K and every one of them trouble free miles? Legendary reliability is right. In another 70K I'll go back with the '05 and do it again.

Having seen the problem all too often with German cars over the years (a lot of "Hangar Queens") and having helped friends fix them themselves has revealed frequent very high cost of parts, I arrived at a hunch. The Germans always have placed a high priority (and invested egos) on sophisticated design work - innovations, slick ideas, seamless designs, tight tolerances, etc. But, those minds do not seem to meld with the attitudes of guys who run production and quality control, Given the socialist bent of their society/economy, the worker bees may not invest the same pride and care when they are making/assembling vehicles and parts. Just a hunch.

Must have been a lot wrong if it was in at the garage for 30 years, must have been slow getting parts.

Why are German cars so trouble prone? Because they aren't Japanese.

Even my lowly GMC Sierra is less trouble prone than a Mercedes. But then the Duramax diesel engine is assembled in Moraine, Ohio with domestic and Japanese parts, with every engine hot run on a test stand for 8 minutes before being installed in a truck. That's something no one else does, not even for the costly diesel option, not Ford or Ram. The Duramax engine is an Isuzu/GM design with both GM and Isuzu being co-owners. Why my old Honda CIVIC is still running after 31 years, rather well I might add, with no breakdowns.

I'd be replacing the rear brakes a lot if I had a GTO.

My 92 4Runner is still going strong, though the Ohio salt is taking it's toll.
I may need to look for a "new " one.
Maybe splurge and get a ...1998-99?

My BIL is a BMW nut. Always has been. He has about 12-15 at any one time.
Maybe 3-4 that run.
I've never seen any car that requires SO many special tools to do a routine repair.

The electronics are nightmares.
He told me last night, he is buying yet another electronic diagnostic laptop for aboy $800
His step daughter's 325 won't start!
Fun cars to drive. I raced them on and off over the years.

Great tourque but I would NEVER recomend them one unless you are prepared to spend big $$$ for service, often.

All those reports IMHO are to be treated dubiously..

We have 130K on my wife's Jetta TDI and other than standard maintenance, it purrs right along and I can't feel any degration in handling. I figure it can go another 125K easy..

This man would know.

As a friend of mine said just recently, "I finally got me a Buick -- my last chance at being cool." I've had a couple now, and like them.

Part of the problem is how they calculate the reliability. Basically, any trip back to the dealer can count as a mark against your brand's reliability.

That means the guy who claimed there was a spot in the headliner of his brand new Dodge Nitro, after he got an oil change, is a reliability issue.

The lady who would come back to the dealership every month, claiming she heard a squeak that we could never reproduce, was several reliability claims.

The other lady who claimed that her A/C got "warm" on long trips -- also a non-reproducible problem, despite numerous test drives and letting the vehicle idle for hours in the parking lot taking temp readings every 15 minutes, was also multiple reliability claims.

Also, people who have spent $70k+ on a car, expect everything to work right and be perfect, and when they don't understand something, they come screaming back. Most of this is the sales rep's fault for not explaining it -- like the lady who had to come back to figure out how to turn her dome light off when she accidentally turned it on. He had never gone over the vehicle with her.

Why not? My dad has 330K on an F150. I think Lexus is the best built vehicle on the road.

I just purchased a New 2011 Buick Lacrosse and it now has 300 miles and still going strong now that is hard to beat.

so don't buy a beemer

I'm wondering if the Toyota owners who had unintended accelaration issues still think that Japanese cars are always more reliable than German ones?......................dj

I'm betting there's a very close correlation between the types of individuals that experienced unintended acceleration in the Toyota/Lexus cars, and those that experienced unintended acceleration in German (Audi) cars years ago.

You mean Bimmer?

Thanks for the advice, but the wife gets what she wants.

I've drank with the vice president of Volkswagen, who happens to also own Rolls Royce. He can have any car he wants on earth.

He drives a Cadillac. V8, NorthStar system...........

I've got a VW Passat and I've changed the oil myself 3 times since I bought it. It is a real bear to remove the spalash guard and get to the oil filter; the drain plug is only accessable after the splash guard is removed.

I pay the dealer to change the oil now and will remember this when I buy a new car (hint - I'll check how difficult it is to change the oil BEFORE I sign!).

Thanks, badger.