I was watching ebay and saw some military issue mukluks/bunny boots as well as some fur canadian mukluks etc.. For tall winter boots not hunting boots whats the consensus among you serious cold weather guys?

Tex

Bunny boots ain't mukluks.

� Bunny boots are shaped thick white felt and look like over-sized boots.

� Surplus military mukluks are virtually shapeless � leather soles with canvas uppers � and look like lace-up leisure socks.

� Either one is very, very good cold-weather foot-gear in dry snow but not much good in wet weather or wet snow.

� Real fur mukluks, the Inuit inspiration for the mass-produced military imitations, are unsurpassed for cold-weather wear � oogruk soles, seal-skin uppers, with heavy wool socks inside.

Why aren't bunny boots good in wet weather or wet snow?

I wear Steger Mukluks when its cold enough. I have the Arctic double-wides. If it is at all wet out there are better choices. But if it will be in the 20s or colder there is nothing better.

I was ice fishing once in 20 below and my feet remained toasty standing around for 6 hours.

http://www.mukluks.com/

The bunny boots I'm familiar with are two layers of waterproof rubber, with wool between them. The come in black or white versions. The white version has a lower temp comfort rating.

It's not uncommon for your feet to sweat while wearing them, but they are extremely warm. Even in wet snow.

Probably too warm, for most activities....

dave

I can only wear mine if I am out all day (~8hrs+), standing on ice like ice fishing, or if it is 0 degrees or colder.

A friend who at the time was a graduate student in Volcanology at the Gee Whiz at UAF wore a pair of bunnies on Mt Augustine after the '75 (IIRC) eruption. Feet stayed cool and the boots came back white from the pumice scrub!

--Mike

We knew only the black version in the 1950s and called 'em "Mickey Mouse boots" for obvious reasons. (I thought they were water-proof rubber with foam between the inner and outer layers.)

The white Arctic-issue boots of old were, as I've described 'em already, white felt. I threw my Mickey Mouse boots away after one elk hunt here in western Montana � they'd collected enough foot sweat to measure with a measuring cup when I wrung-out my socks. Meanwhile, my feet were cold if I wasn't moving enough to keep 'em warm. Then they sweated, and the impervious rubber held-in all that moisture.

The felt bunny boots and white-canvas military mukluks no longer keep your feet warm when they get soaked. As long as they're dry, they're great. Wet, they're like sponges.

In 1969 I was wearing the white bunny boots on a caribou hunt at Paxson. It was unbelievably cold!!! Froze the big toe on my right foot. Left it a little shorter than it was. I am not impressed. The sweat that accumulates becomes a huge hazard when the motion stops...
art

I was stationed in Fairbanks in the Army a few years ago and had the green mucklucks and white Bunny Boots issued to me. The Bunny's are vapor barrier boots, so there is no air circulation, they are warm, but you have to change socks and dry your feet to prevent immersion foot, kind of like soaking your feet in warm water all day.
The mucklucks were great if you replaced the white felt with Sorel blue and put a couple of felt pads (insoles) under them.
However, we all used Herman Survivors (sold through clothing sales and authorized to wear in uniform) if we were doing much walking. The mucklucks have no ankle support and no insole support, and the bunny boots were just too heavy to walk in.
The canvas Mucklucks should be treated with a spray to waterproof them (we used CampDry) because it was available. For our own use, most the guys used either Sorel Caribous or similiar boots, oversized, and added felt packs as we saw fit.
Hope this helps.

most folks that do extended outdoor stuff around here use boots not mukluks.... "sorel" is a popular and respected brand in these parts. Removable liners are a must (to allow proper drying), and select the style having the structure/ankle support appropriate for what you will be doing. Personally I try and buy boots made in canada.. not so much because of national pride, but because I know the rubber compound was really designed for -40oC and will not get slippery or stiff when it does get cool. The outer material of cheapo (=imported) boots often changes drastically between room temp and real use temp. I've seen some actually crack. Buy 'em with enough space to allow some air space/wiggle room around your toes, but they shouldn't be so loose fitting that your heel moves around. Fit is important enough that I wouldn't buy boots off ebay.

Anyway that's my $02... our low temps over the weekend are -24oC... "startin' to feel a lot like christmas.." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Brent

"Bunny" boots are those big rubber military surplus boots that look like they belong in a cartoon. They make your feet sweat, they are heavy and they don't fit tightly so you get blisters. They are torture devices that should be agressively avoided.

Pak boots are a two-part boot, usually with a insulating felt liner and a rubber outer boot with leather uppers. The best are made by Sorrel. It's miserable to try to walk any distance in pak boots. But they work OK if you don't plan on walking; just sitting or standing.

Mukluks are insulated boots with an integral knee-high gaiter. Mukluks are more comfortable and there's a military surplus variety that's not a bad solution for cold weather hunting. But they don't really keep your feet warm when it's really cold and you're just standing or sitting.

Modern mountaineering boots are a good compromise. Mountaineering boots are similar to ski boots in that they have an inner insulated boot and an outer plastic shell. The shell has a some flexibility in the ankles so you can walk in them. They will keep your feet warm in the coldest conditions but they are intended for short approach hikes and ice climbing. It's not easy to walk in them.

For passive endeavors in really cold weather, I recommend either pak boots or mountaineering boots. If you are going to use this kind of footwear it better be really cold. Like you will be standing on ice for ice fishing or goose hunting with single digit air temps and some wind chill.

For hunting in snow, I recommend a good pair of insulated hiking boots (with a pair of OR gaiters) or the military surplus variety of mukluks.

KC

I've never used bunny boots. I have two pairs of Sorel pack boots, one pair has leather uppers, and the other pair has cordura uppers. Pack boots are good if you aren't walking long distances. I picked up a pair of mounataineering boots this fall, and they are much better for hiking in, and crampon compatable.

It really depends on what you are doing. If you want to keep your feet tosty in a cold stand or blind, get pack boots. If you want to travel any distance, get some mountaineering boots and gaiters.

I have about three sets of Schnees, made in Bozeman, MT, for various purposes. They are a pack boot, but made for walking. I have covered lots of miles in a day in them, without difficulty. One pair even has pointy toes for riding, and they are the only boot that has ever kept my feet warm on horseback in sub-zero conditions. If I'm going to be moving more than not, thinsulate-insulated Gore-tex lined leather/cordura boots with airbob soles work "the best" for me -- unless I'm in SE Alaska. Pack boots with interchangeable liners are much more likely to keep your feet dry and warm in cool (25-45 Farenheit) and extremely wet conditions.

Fit is CRITICAL, as has been stated. I am extremely reluctant to buy boots over the internet -- though I did order my new Hoffman corks sight unseen. They will get a test this weekend...

I have a pair of "new" black "Mickey Mouse" boots bought from Cabela's some years ago; they are for stand hunting as they keep your feet warm and are scent free, which other boots are not. I have used a variety of pac boots for work and play here in B.C., including Sorels which I detest; they have no ankle support in steep country.

I do buy gear based on Canadian national pride, but, i am not going to suffer for doing so. While there may be equal or better pacboots I am unaware of, Schnee's in Montana are now my exclusive choice for cold weather boots after about 13 yrs. using them.

I use mountaineering boots a lot, but, I have had frostbite from them in really cold weather and find Schnee's with spare liners much more comfy and versatile.

In 1969....I was still in solution. <grin>

dave

But were you frozen... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I work outside most of the winter. Sorel and LaCrosse dominate the really-freakin'-cold weather market here. I would actually be afraid to try something different out of the fear becoming "JOG Nine-toes".

The ultimate test of a cold weather boot is standing in one spot on frozen blacktop or cement all day. Cold radiates up through the bottom of the boot where the lining is compressed by your body weight. Sorel or LaCrosse - tens of thousands of Minnesotans can be wrong about presidential candidates but not about warm feet.

David
And now you find yourself merely insolvent??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I do! oOn't worry about the test tube thing too much though... at least you had a womb with a view!
art

JOG
"Cold radiates up through the bottom of the boot where the lining is compressed by your body weight."

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Wrong answer!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You just struck a pet peeve of this peevish old fool. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Trust your hide is plenty thick to handle the correction... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

No such thing as an entity or state of being known as "cold." There is an absence of heat, and heat might be conducted away through a cold part of the body, such as chilled feet, but Cold does not get radiated anywhere...

Laws of thermodynamics state energy can not move from an engine at a lower temp to an engine at higher temp unless work is done on the engine... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
art

Ken is on target here and you young fellas need to respect our generation gap.

The original "bunny boot" was a WWII felt boot used by ski troopers etc. The leather heel had a ski binding groove. There was no waterproof covering. Soles were slippery as heck!

Along came the Korean War and our guys were freezing in the Frozen Chosin and the Korean Boot came about and was the black rubber vapor barrier boot [micky mouse boot] of felt sandwiched between inner and outer layers of rubber. Then the military came along with the white version which is rated for colder temperatures than the black and was eventually also named "bunny boot" by the younger generation.

Some claim the black version is more petroleum resistant. Both the white and black versions have air valves on the side for equalizing air pressure when flying at high altitudes.

I live near the US Army Cold Weather Test site and I still see the troops wearing the white vapor barrier boot. I wear the Steger Mukluk for daily wear outside and use the vapor barrier boot when riding a snowmobile. I wear sandals for winter fishing on the Baja.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wow, lot's of good replies here. I'm really too late to add anything new. I also wore the white bunny boots while stationed at Ft Wainwright. They DO work, but the 'trench foot' problem is also real. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Didn't care much for the canvas mukluks personally, and rarely wore them.

I can tell you, I always felt colder on the flightline in Kodiak (and here too) that I ever did in Fairbanks. There's some truth to the old 'but it's a dry cold' addage. Like Art, when it gets cold, and my buddies are starting to complain, I like to tell them that there's no such thing as cold, just an absence of heat. Some of those super cold nights in Fairbanks, I'd swear there was no atmosphere to protect me from the pure cold of space iteself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

While working outdoors in severely cold weather( -10 and lower ), I've yet to find a substitute for the vapor barrier boot. But, as mentioned by others, you absolutely must change socks as often as needed to keep your feet dry.

For hunting/snowshoeing when it's above -10 or so( I'm not particularly interested in hunting in temps much lower. If I'm outside when it's colder than that, I prefer to be paid to be doing so! ), I like Schnee pack boots, and always have a spare pair of dry liners in my pack.

The old Air Force "mukluks" I was issued were quite warm, but they wear out quickly, and worse, have absolutely no ankle support, and are useless for any serious activity IMO.

Art,

The cold/less warm thing was my high school Physics teachers pet peeve as well, and I still find myself correcting people(and myself) when the wrong terminology is used.

Jeff

Art,

Yeah, but cold feels like it radiates up...

I guess I shouldn't have taken that particular shortcut. You're right of course, and I bet your pet peeve gets fired up when folks start discussing windchill and its effect on a car starting.

I just checked my hide - not even scratched <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Jog,

Being your from Minnesota I'm sure you understand all about extreme cold. And, your right about wind chill and it's effect on machinery as compared to heat producing mammals. Even some folks in Alaska need to be reminded that wind chill doesn't effect inanimate objects, except maybe to cool them off faster.

I recall the winter of '89 when all then rubber on my lil'Chevy S-10 Blazers serpentine belt decided to part company with the 'kevlar like' backing. Thank goodness the rest of the belt managed to turn the power steering pump, altenator, etc. The CV boot's cracked open nearly every year up there. One trick I remember, if you had a 4 wheel drive tranfer case with a true neutral position, is to leave the tranny in gear, when warming up the engine. That would warm up the tranny as well as the engine. If not. it was darn near impossible to shift a manual tranny when it was that cold. It also worked with automatic trannys. But, if I didn't engage 4 wheel drive, the sealed front wheel bearings would freeze up and the front tires would drag for the first couple hundered feet until friction and heat freed them up. That's because the roads were so frozen with ice, that there wasn't enough traction at first (until you hit a major traffic area) to make the front wheels turn with the stiff bearings.

Reminds me why I moved a bit south! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You northern boys just keep on talking. I am setting here thinking day-um! there ain't a way in this world I could put on enough clothes to stay warm. I ain't ever going to complain about 100 degree days again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


BCR

Boggy: Yeah where I'm at is nothin like those Alaska boys. I've had the temps like 6 degrees in the morning here and the wind chill around zero and I swear it didnt feel that bad and I had just jeans, shirt, sweater and leather jacket and hunting boots on. No long underwear etc.. But man my toes are freezing in cowboy boots up here for sure. (grin) Sheesh.

I have bad circulation and my feet get cold as hell. Seems worse after the accident a couple years back. When I lived in Colorado before I was in the country and I only shoveled snow to get vehicles out of the driveway. Now I'm in a subdivision and they want ya to have the dad gum sidewalk shoveled off every morning. Crap.

I used to wear Sorel snowbears with the tall gaitor things to keep snow out. Thats the tall all black or all white suckers.

Was just curious if there was a better option these days.

Tex

Tex I know what you mean. I remember once I was quail hunting out on the South Plains around Quanah with a bud of mine. Some weather had blown throuh during the night and when we went out next morning it was clear and, wonder of wonders, still. Didn't feel bad at all. Until I looked at the thermometer. It was 4. Durn near all my joints froze up before I could get back to the fire. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BCR

He may have been describing conductivity.

While I am on here I am using Rocky boots with 1000 grams of insulation. So far they seem warmer than the traditional Sorrel pacs. These are a leather-Cordura boot for New England use. It's 23 F right now.

Nice and snowy here this morning, -25c.
The sled heads are jumping for joy as it is snowing up a storm here lately! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We run synthetic oil in our vehicles.
it really makes a difference in the differential and gear boxes.
As far as footwear goes, for extreme cold stuff, Sorrels pretty well rule around here, but in the bush at-35c, Gortex -thinsultae boots work well.
catnthehat

I've never been able to keep my feet warm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.This past sept my feet got cold sitting in a ladder stand,morning temps were low 40's to 50 degrees F.As long as I'm moving I'm alright,but stop for longer than half an hour and my toes start getting cold.

I wear Sorels when there's snow on the ground and like a few have said,there's zero support in those things.They are warm though.The current pair has three layes of felt,a frost pad,the main bootie and then another felt pad inside the bootie,they have rubber bottoms and cordura uppers.I just have to make sure I pull them apart at the end of the day to let the sweat dry,man my feet sweat.Buddy of mine welded up an awesome drying rack that goes over the wood burner in the tent,and a pair of boots and felts dry out in an hour.

Cat,it's a balmy -2 here this morning with just a skiff of snow on the truck.Hope to get some thicker ice on the lakes so we can start fishing.

Only three commercial choices I know of for extreme cold weather (-40)
I hunted and lived for 9 years on baffin island and saw and experienced a lot of suffering:

1) The Canadian Military Mukluck or commercial variant by ACTON. This is a big shapeless synthetic upper with a rubber bottom . The rubber bottom is not high but only on the bottom so the whole upper breathes and body heat drives most moisture/sweat out of the boot.
The insulation is a double wool duffle booty that is extremely warm. they have an incredible double insulation bottom and keep even my wifes feet warm all day at -40.
The only disdavantage of this boot is that the bottom traction nibs wear quickly and they are slippery.

2) Better yet.... Malakhov/Webber boots by Sorel. These are no longer made but were designed as an improvement on the Canadian Mukluk above by two arctic explorers Webber and Malakhov. They used these boots in the first unsupported dash to and back from the pole. They have great traction/insulation and the incredible bottom insulation of above with more comfort and support than #1. I have two pairs left and they are the best.

3) The Steiger double wide mukluk. These look very good with enough room for insulation (good old duffle) and a breathable top and bottom for vapour transmission. Moose hide bottoms have a nifty rubber bottom for traction. These will get the nod when my beloved Webbers wear out.

What won't work at -40 is any design that holds water vapour. Even the Inuit leave the waterproof seal kamiks at home at -40 and take out the caribou mukluks. Rubber bottom designs or worse yet the Mickey Mouse boots are an abomination in really cold weather.

I do wear Mickey Mouse Boots in milder spring weather when I might get wet or go through the ice. NEVER saw ANYONE using these successfully in really cold Baffin weather.

Trust me on this we had lots of southerners from southern Canada come up to the Baffin with a stubborn insistence on the quality their wonder boots or other gear. They were a lot more humble after 12 hours on the trail when they were crying from the pain of the cold.

Don
"He may have been describing conductivity."

HUH? He used two terms with generally known meanings and did not use them technically correctly. You do not conduct cold, and heat lost through the soles of your feet while standing on ice is not radiated... I fail to follow your point.

Boggy
You ought to see real cold... spit freezes in mid-air... Iron pipe wrenches held by the eye cast in the handle and dinged gently together will shatter like glass... diesel gels... And then there is the dreaded Arctic Panic!







Two inches of talleywhacker and four inches of clothes!
art

Secret weapon for real cold sitting... take a niacin tablet when your feet get cold. The veins will dilate and your skin will itch for a brief time, but you will be warm for quite a while. The worse the reaction the more you need to get some in your diet.
art

typos#$%^

Nuthin' beats the natural stuff, for sure!
Catnthehat

"Two inches of talleywhacker and 4 inches of clothes"

I hate those thighsicles.

Not enough hose to clear the clothes.

A nip of 80 proof works too...without the itching... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Guaranteed to bring you back with all your toes from -50F and 29,000'

art my friend, as much as I like you and respect your knowledge and experience, NO I do not need to see real cold. I will take your word for it and its effects on the human body. You would have to drag me kicking and screaming away from the fire and as mighty a man as even you are it would be a full time job for the immediate future.

Long ago I gave up careing about the macho side of outdoor experiences. I been cold (enough) and wet (enough) and dirty (enough) for me to know that I don't particularly enjoy those conditions and certainly not in any combination.

So, you all just go right ahead on imitating Frosty the Snowman and I will hide and watch. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BCR

Boggy,

Here's a mental image for ya - I was working in an open field in the middle of nowhere as a massive cold front was ripping through. The temperature was -40 with wind gusts over 50-mph. Most of the snow literally blew off the field. Although I don't put much stock in "windchill" the resulting -90 is impressive.

My eye lashes were freezing together and my 'reserves' were running out so I decided to head back to my truck for a warm up. The door handle 'clinked' off in my hand with zero effort - it just snapped. I stumbled around to the passenger side and pulled the handle as gentle as diffusing a bomb. The door opened - Praise the Lord. At least I didn't have to bash in a window...

Art, sounds like you have been around the oil field. What happens to Propane when that cold? Any wildlife in the area? How about flashlight batteries? -- no

Sonny
Funny you should mention propane... A co-worker in Prudhoe Bay, circa '84 or so, was on a job out on the sea ice testing a wildcat well (drill-stem testing, Otis Engineering for Conoco) and could not get the propane torch lit. The frosty propane was getting real small down in the bottle there. So he got a mud box, 4' plywood cube for those that do not know what a mud box is, and opened up a side to allow him to direct a salamander heater at the bottle inside the box.

When he returned to check it the fusible plug had melted, filling the mud box with propane, but the combination of very cold air and the salamander using up all the oxygen did not let anything happen until he opened the box to check on it.

It "WOOFED" more than roared, but took his eyebrows, the fur ruff on his parka, most of his beard and allowed the box bottom to settle on the salamander and bottle.

Funny enough, but he still needed a functional propane torch. So here comes another mud box, another bottle, the same heater, the same set-up. But this time he was "smart" enough to put the bottle a little farther away and pointed the fusible away from the open flames of the salamander.

When he came back to check he crawled inside the box and cranked the bottle open. Salamander roaring in his ear did not allow him to hear the propane and because the fusible was not pointing at the fire, the bottle opening was (not that that made a lot of difference) and of course it went off again.

This time he was in the box and flattened by the lid of the mud box. He was lucky he survived with nothing worse than a spotty beard...

Anyway, about 4AM they called me and told me to come pick him up, "Don't worry about the sign that says the ice road is closed, we are SURE you can make it!" He was taking his laundry out of the washer and readying to put it in the drier when I showed up. He just had to go talk to the toolpusher when he found out I was on a retrieval run.

Toolpusher minced no words in his desire to get him off his location. Told him to put his clothes in the back of the truck and let them dry with sublimation on the way back to our camp. We loaded his stuff and drove a couple miles off the pad, hit a big crack in the ice road and the flatbed of the truck fell off. Sheared all the bolts holding it on and fell off to the side.

We could not get it off the truck to move it. We were stuck in the ditch to boot. The company behind did not want to hear from us and no one from the front was answering the radio. We did not have enough fuel to sit there and idle all night and it was very brisk outdoors.

Stuck there in the cab of a truck under less than ideal conditions and wondering just which way to go next was bad enough, and then listening to the idiot trying to defend his propane antics, but the worst part? Man! Did his parka ever stink of burnt hair!

Fortunately the toolpusher had someone monitor our radio and sent a loader out to get us out. That was a whole other circus, but it worked!

Diesel in a bucket takes minutes under a propane torch to ignite and the bucket can and does go out all the time even after you get it going.

Flashlight batteries do all right, though life and light are limited from them. Not a lot of critters running around in the deep cold. The caribou are South, looking for shallower snow on the ridges of the Brooks Range foothills. The white bears come around occasionally, the brown ones are sleeping. Arctic and red foxes are common, wolves and wolverines rare. Muskox make it around every once in a while... but that is about all.
art

For my money the vapor barrier boots are the only way to go. If you have no chance of running into water the felt options may be more comfortable. I like to hunt ptarmigan in the winter. These birds esp. willow ptarmigan will be found around the willows that grow along streams. Regardless of how cold it gets you can always find water along the streams and rivers. I have dropped into water a few times while doing this. Once in the Talkeetna river I was knee deep and another time I was waist deep before I managed to grab a bush. Both times I poured out the water and was able to get back without too much discomfort. The wool between the rubber layers can get wet if the airvalves are not closed. Once wet the boots are worthless. I seal the valves with silicone. My boots fit well and I can walk a long ways in them before I need to change socks. I have both the black and white boots. pak

Most Eskimos up here wear Sorel's, bunny boots, or real mukluks. Sorel's dominate with the younger generations, it seems. Some of the villagers up here use real mukluks, though. Only them G.I. dudes wear the gov't 'mukluks' that I've seen.
I favor Sorel's Glacier boots. I've never gotten cold wearing them.
Some use tennis shoes outside all winter. They stay within town, though. Some folks travel by snow machine wearing tennis shoes, too, but they do take warmer boots, put away, for when they need to change. I trade off between tennis shoes and Sorel's, depending when I'm going and how long I'll be. ~~~Suluuq

Rusty Gunn: I had forgotten you posted here. (I'm old and I been away for a awhile... sorry)

I would be interested in a pair of "real mukluks" even used ones in decent shape. Can you PM or email me pricing? I think I will die when I see the pricing on those babies but as I mentioned even used ones would fit my needs fine.

Tex

Steger Mukluks are "real" mukluks, based on the Cree Indian design. $160 for Arctic double wides.

http://www.mukluks.com/arctic.shtml