Home
The ultimate Mormon male
Mitt Romney doesn't want to talk specifics about his Mormon faith, but it has defined his image, style and campaign
By Naomi Zeveloff

[Linked Image]

If there is one single impediment to Mitt Romney�s campaign, it is his utter inscrutability, his perplexing failure to schmooze with voters. Romney is seen by many as hollow, robotic, as stiff as his hair-sprayed coiffure.

But to me, Mitt Romney isn�t stiff. He�s just a Mormon.

I know, because I grew up in Ogden, Utah, a city of about 83,000 people, 60 percent of whom are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (I�m not one.) Though Romney was raised in suburban Detroit, he seems a product of Ogden�s Mormon milieu � a town lodged firmly in the 1950s, where homeowners leave their doors unlocked at night, teenagers cruise the boulevard, or �vard,� on weekends and packs of Mormon men comb the neighborhoods after windstorms to clear away fallen branches.

Like Romney, with his habit of saying �gosh,� the Mormons in my high school subbed their curse words � hell was �heck,� anything stronger was �fudge� or �freak.� Romney speaks with the classical Mormon accent, dropping his t�s and g�s, turning �Washington� into �Washinton� and �enterprise� into �enerprise.� He even dresses like a Mormon, wearing the dark suit, white button-down shirt and red or blue tie of the return missionary, or �RM� in Utah parlance. And while Romney may not stand out from the Republican pack for his sartorial taste, to any Mormon he is riffing on the missionary motif.

Romney vacillates when it comes to talking about Mormonism on the campaign trail, alternately playing it down as a private matter and emphasizing his devotion to his �faith� like he did in a recent advertisement, without specifying which faith that is. But make no mistake, Romney is a man steeped in Mormonism � a religion that is not so much a belief system as a lifestyle, urging its adherents to be �in the world but not of the world.� Romney, in fact, is the archetypal Mormon male.

In Mormonism, gender roles are highly prescribed. Mormon men define themselves in contrast to women but also against other men in the secular world. While the �natural man� is prone to anger and sexual urges, the Mormon man is a picture of loving restraint � LDS homes are filled with paintings of Jesus surrounded by lambs, women and children. Any Mormon man worth his salt knows by heart the following line from �Doctrine and Covenants,� the tract written by Mormon prophet Joseph Smith while he was a prisoner in Liberty, Mo., in 1839: �No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by the virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned.� For Mormon men, wrote David Knowlton in his seminal 1992 article on LDS masculinity in the Mormon Sunstone Magazine, �a measure of spirituality also becomes a measure of manhood.�

The very qualities that make a good Mormon man, however, make for a poor campaigner. Up until mid-January, Romney was widely seen as too timid to respond to Newt Gingrich�s barbs, letting his super PAC do it on his behalf. Romney�s reluctance may have something to do with his faith � Mormon men are taught to be specific in their criticisms and to follow them up with �an increase of love of him whom thou has reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy� as written in �Doctrine and Covenants.� Romney�s transformation into a political assailant won him Florida, but it might have cost him spiritually. Even the new Romney seems a bit squeamish on the attack, ending each swipe in the Republican primary debates with a tight-lipped smile.

�I don�t think politics is a natural place for Mormon men,� said Richard Bushman, a prominent Mormon historian. �To go into a political scene, where you have to have a hard edge and knock heads and attack, that is going against the Mormon grain. I cringe when I hear Mitt talking that way. That is not the way he ought to be as a Latter-day Saint living this other ideal.�

Central to Mormon masculinity is the priesthood, a role given to all worthy, church-going Mormon boys at the age of 12. Because the LDS church is both a patriarchal church and a lay church, it invests deeply in training boys to remain devoted Mormons in adulthood, endowing them with prepubescent responsibilities like speaking in front of their congregations and collecting donations on behalf of the poor. Mormon boys at the ages of 12, 14 and 16 are called, respectively, deacons, teachers and priests � titles that in other religions belong to adults. When a Mormon embarks on a mission, he becomes an elder, like Romney did, at the tender age of 18.

Because of the priesthood, Mormon men exude a kind of humble authority that might strike other people as disingenuous. When Newt Gingrich told Romney to �drop the pious baloney� at a New Hampshire debate in January, he might have been responding to what one skeptical Mormon I spoke with called the �pseudo unction� of the Mormon male personality, the gentle hubris that comes with being raised without a shred of spiritual self-doubt.

This might explain why Romney has a certain Teflon quality. Romney has made U-turns on abortion policy, global warming and the nationwide application of his Massachusetts healthcare plan. But in contrast to Sen. John Kerry�s 2004 campaign for president, criticism of Romney as a flip-flopper hasn�t seemed to stick. Romney might be pandering to the Republican hard right, but it�s not always easy to detect � he speaks with that preternatural self-assuredness common to LDS men.

�He makes no big mistakes in the way he says something,� said Becky Johns, a professor of communications and women�s studies at Weber State University in Ogden. �He may make a lot of mistakes in the content of what he says. But he will never do the big dramatic display of any kind. Even his smiles are measured to be quite moderate.�

Throughout Romney�s campaign, he has been dogged by the perception that as president he would answer to the Mormon leadership � an assertion he denied in his 2007 speech �Faith in America.� But, according to University of Utah Mormon historian W. Paul Reeve, questions over Romney�s spiritual obligations to Salt Lake City overlook the fact that Mormonism is not solely authoritarian in nature. Mormons adhere to church law, but they also have a say in their spiritual fate through the concept of �revelation.�

�This notion that Mormons are sort of one-dimensional automatons waiting for the signal from Salt Lake City is ridiculous,� Reeve said. �It is the balance between the heart and the mind that can govern the notion of seeking guidance from God.�

Both Mormon men and women are capable of receiving godly revelation for themselves or on behalf of their families � said to come in the form of a �still, small voice� or a burning feeling in the chest. But only Mormon men in leadership positions can receive revelation on behalf of other people. In the �80s, Romney served as a bishop over a Belmont, Mass., congregation, and later as stake president over a group of congregations in the Boston area. In both of these roles, he was capable of revelation for his laity.

Romney�s spiritual leadership, however, was challenged at times. As bishop of the Belmont ward, he clashed with a group of Mormon feminists; one of them wrote an essay in the LDS women�s journal Exponent II saying that a local leader � later revealed to be Romney � counseled her against terminating her pregnancy, even while she had developed a dangerous blood clot. Though Romney said he did not remember such an incident, he conceded that as bishop he advised women against abortions except in rare cases � following the church�s official policy.

As president of the United States, Romney has promised not to hew to church policy like he did as a Mormon lay leader. �Let me assure that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions,� he said in 2007. �Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin.�

Taking Romney at his word, there are still questions about the way that Mormonism has shaped him as a leader. Namely, what does it mean to be president if you believe you are in this world but not of it?

link
Well, I just got home from LDS church services, about 5 miles from Ogden, and the author's description of the LDS male doesn't fit anybody that I saw there.

If I were in Mitt's shoes, I think my statement would be, "My faith teaches me to be honest in my dealings, faithful to my wife, and to treat all people fairly. Anything beyond that is a personal matter."
I don't care if he is a Mormon, most I have met are considerate, deliberate and honest.

ALL I am interested in is the issues and am damned tired of all the character assassination crap from all sides.

as he becomes more clearly the likely nominee, expect a whole lot of hostile coverage from the oh-so-tolerant liberal press about those weird old Mormons and how we just really shouldn't be electing some cultist. it's coming.
I didn't think the article above exhibited any attacks, did you?

Sycamore
No attacks, just a whole lot of fairly absurd stereotyping.

Yes, I think that the liberal press will exhibit a large amount of bigotry during the coming campaign. And it is out of place. The only issue is how well/not well he will do at the job. A syphilitic camel is better than what we've got, and Romney is vastly better than that.
Originally Posted by Sycamore
I didn't think the article above exhibited any attacks, did you?

Sycamore



condescension and cliches....no overt attacks. give it a while.
No doubt in my mind Steve, the ads & OP-ED pieces are probably already in the "can".
and not just because he's a Mormon. if he were a Baptist or Catholic it would be the same thing as long he was the leading contender.
Originally Posted by Sycamore
I didn't think the article above exhibited any attacks, did you?

Sycamore


LOL you're taking yourself seriously on that [bleep]
Originally Posted by Steve_NO
as he becomes more clearly the likely nominee, expect a whole lot of hostile coverage from the oh-so-tolerant liberal press about those weird old Mormons and how we just really shouldn't be electing some cultist. it's coming.



You bet its coming, and be certain they'll dig up an abused female polygamist out of mesico.



Harry Reid is also a Mormon.

If I were Romney, and someone asked about my religion I'd point out the above, and ask how come it's not an issue for Mr. Reid?

The Mormons I have known are all nice people, not difficult to get along with. If he is the nominee I hope Romney has the brass to do serious cutting on the budget.
Does Harry Reid have ties to the mesican compound? I have heard there are two sects of Mormons, polygamists, and those that condemn polygamy. Which one is Romney, which one is Reid? That mesican compound weren't built for a time share.
I live in a heavy Mormon community. I tried for years to get a job at NAS Fallon and got nowhere.

Just a little while ago I found out why. The guy in charge of all civilian hiring was a Mormon bishop. I'm not Mormon...

You figure it out. whistle
Originally Posted by luv2safari
I live in a heavy Mormon community. I tried for years to get a job at NAS Fallon and got nowhere.

Just a little while ago I found out why. The guy in charge of all civilian hiring was a Mormon bishop. I'm not Mormon...

You figure it out. whistle


Maybe he is clairvoyant and knew you weren't worth hiring...
Originally Posted by denton
Well, I just got home from LDS church services, about 5 miles from Ogden, and the author's description of the LDS male doesn't fit anybody that I saw there.


Described my Mormon boss to a "T".

Sample size of one, of course.

Paul
I didnt feel like there were any real attacks in that article and I am a Mormon. Maybe a little condescension, but nothing too serious. I'm actually a Ron Paul fan, but a Romney presidency would at least get me a little excited. Not because there would be a Mormon president (although I think that is cool) but I think he would do a fairly good job. He isn't the most conservative, but given a conservative house and senate, he isn't going to get in the way. I believe he is a good, honest man who has great leadership experience. I also think he loves this country.

Actually, the real reason I like him...he will convert everyone to our cult. laugh
Originally Posted by shrapnel
Originally Posted by luv2safari
I live in a heavy Mormon community. I tried for years to get a job at NAS Fallon and got nowhere.

Just a little while ago I found out why. The guy in charge of all civilian hiring was a Mormon bishop. I'm not Mormon...

You figure it out. whistle


Maybe he is clairvoyant and knew you weren't worth hiring...


It turns out he got into some trouble over his hiring practices. Maybe you should stick to what you know about. smirk
Originally Posted by Sycamore
The ultimate Mormon male
Mitt Romney doesn't want to talk specifics about his Mormon faith, but it has defined his image, style and campaign
By Naomi Zeveloff

[Linked Image]

If there is one single impediment to Mitt Romney�s campaign, it is his utter inscrutability, his perplexing failure to schmooze with voters. Romney is seen by many as hollow, robotic, as stiff as his hair-sprayed coiffure.

link


Lack of political convictions, a monster bankroll, and playing a lame prevent defense will have that as a consequence...
Any idea who is sponsoring the "and I'm a Morman" adds that have shown up on TV in the last few months?
I haven't seen any of those, and I'm not anti-Morman. There are some realities to living in heavily Morman communities, however.

Some of the fringe offshoots of the Morman community are spooky. I was watched and followed when I spent an afternoon in Colorado City, AZ a few years ago while returning from an elk hunt in Chama NM. My wife was terrified, but that place is extreme and cult-run.

What do these ads say?

Actually, I want someone with Morman values to turn things around in this country.
Quote
Actually, I want someone with Morman values to turn things around in this country.



I'm not sure that's Romney; he's flipped on abortion and gay rights several times. I could see him pro gay marriage.
Originally Posted by 1minute
Any idea who is sponsoring the "and I'm a Morman" adds that have shown up on TV in the last few months?


Those are sponsored by the church itself. In fact, I have a cousin who produces some of those commercials.
Originally Posted by watch4bear
Quote
Actually, I want someone with Morman values to turn things around in this country.

I'm not sure that's Romney; he's flipped on abortion and gay rights several times.


Nope, I believe on those he flopped... ?

Chit, can't seem to keep em' all straight.
Originally Posted by c86man3
Originally Posted by 1minute
Any idea who is sponsoring the "and I'm a Morman" adds that have shown up on TV in the last few months?


Those are sponsored by the church itself. In fact, I have a cousin who produces some of those commercials.


Which the Romney donated $ $4 million$ $ to last year alone...
Originally Posted by add
Originally Posted by c86man3
Originally Posted by 1minute
Any idea who is sponsoring the "and I'm a Morman" adds that have shown up on TV in the last few months?


Those are sponsored by the church itself. In fact, I have a cousin who produces some of those commercials.


Which the Romney donated $ $4 million$ $ to last year alone...


Donated? Actually if you had said that most of what Romney paid was his "tithing", THEN you would begin to make a 'correct' statement!

Got something against "tithing?" smirk wink
Mitt is pretty high up in the ranks of Mormonism.
I grew up in Mentor Ohio and studied the beginings of LDS
And why they were driven from Ohio and eleswhere.
And some of the nuts they left behind!
Like Lungren and his followers.

Romney?

Being a Mormon does't bother me.
Being a liberal from Mass. does!

If he gets in the White House the 2nd Amendment needs to be gaurded even closer!
Originally Posted by T LEE
I don't care if he is a Mormon, most I have met are considerate, deliberate and honest.

I'm guessing you've never met Harry Reid. smirk
Originally Posted by watch4bear
Does Harry Reid have ties to the mesican compound? I have heard there are two sects of Mormons, polygamists, and those that condemn polygamy. Which one is Romney, which one is Reid? That mesican compound weren't built for a time share.


The main sect of Mormons abolished polygamy back in 1890 after pressure from the federal government, and by decree, in 1912 the church officially no longer recognized previous plural marriages they had performed......both Romney and Harry Reid currently belong to this sect. However, there were some in the church back then that fled to both Mexico and Canada to avoid prosecution for bigamy in the U.S. Mitt Romney decended from one of those families that had fled around the turn of the century.

Now, there never was a single compound either, though most of the families that fled bought ranches in the same general area to maintain a sense of community, but they never walled themselves off from the rest of the world as the post suggests.

As far as modern polygamy, there are some small off shoot branches of Mormonism that maintain the church was wrong to abandon polygamy back in 1890 so they continue to practice it today. They don't recognize main stream Mormonism of which Romney and Reid are members and main stream Mormons don't recognize them.......each veiw the other as apostate organizations and there is no connection official or otherwise.

As far as Harry Reid's ties to the Mexican Mormons I can't really say, I don't know his family history. But since it was only a small minority of families that left the U.S. for Mexico or Canada I would think it is unlikely.



There are quite a few mainstream Mormons who practice polygamy in spite of the church's ban on it. I've known a few personally over the years. Back in high school, one of my best friends was from one of those families. They kept a pretty tight reign on things to avoid legal problems. In the years we were friends, I never, even once, was at their house. They didn't welcome outside eyes seeing what was going on. I knew 2 of his sisters, too, but I never found out whether they were from his mother or a different one.
My wife's a hairdresser. She has a client who's one of several wives. Elaine asked her how they handled the legal part of it. She said that when it's time for an additional wife, the husband 'divorces' the current one, then remarries. However, the previous wives don't move out. They continue being his wives although the state doesn't recognize them.

That said, I don't think Romney's Mormanism would affect his service as president. He is what he is which isn't who I'd like but he's still 1000x better than Obama.
Originally Posted by Steve_NO
Originally Posted by Sycamore
I didn't think the article above exhibited any attacks, did you?

Sycamore



condescension and cliches....no overt attacks. give it a while.


I'd go this plus as far as heavily veiled negative.
Being Mormon, I have issue w/ Romney's political actions as MA gov being contrary to his religious beliefs. But yeah, he's way better than Obummer.

And Reid doesn't even rate a dignified 'mormon' label. The guy's just evil.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
There are quite a few mainstream Mormons who practice polygamy in spite of the church's ban on it.


I would take issue with that statement. I can pretty much guarantee that anyone practicing polygamy today within the mainstream LDS church is going to be ex-communicated. I'm not a practicing Mormon so I don't speak for them, but I did grow up in the church and am familiar with their teachings and values. If your aquaintences are indeed polygamists as you say, either 1), local church leaders are unaware of it......or 2), they belong to one of those small off shoot branches of fundementalist Mormons that believe that the mainstream church is an apostate organization.
They follow Brigham Young who had 50+ wives. He said that no man can become a god unless he's a polygamist. While the church banned it, they still kept Young as a primary prophet. It's no secret that it was banned because Utah wanted to become a state and congress wouldn't allow it because of their polygamy. Many Mormons, both past and present, believe that the ban was just to placate the government.
Rock Chuck, you've got your history a bit twisted.

Brigham Young had 27 wives. He died in 1877. The church renounced polygamy in 1890.
from Wikipedia:
Quote
Young was a polygamist, marrying a total of 55 wives, 54 of them after he converted to become a Latter Day Saint.[31] The policy was difficult for many in the church. Young stated that upon being taught about plural marriage, "It was the first time in my life that I desired the grave."[32] By the time of his death, Young had 56 children by 16 of his wives; 46 of his children reached adulthood.[26]

Yes he did die well before statehood, but that doesn't change the fact that he stated that no Mormon man who wasn't a polygamist could become a god. The present day polygamists follow Young's teachings. It's not a dead issue by any means. Some years ago, Life magazine ran an extensive article on it. The author spent a great deal of time with polygamist families gathering his info, and much of it was here in Idaho. It was the mainstream church he wrote about, not one of the renegade sects.
Oh, well, if it was in Life, and on Wikipedia it must be accurate.

Just about the quickest way to become an ex-Mormon is to tell your Bishop that you've got more than one wife.
I didn't say the church condoned it. I'm saying that there is a lot of it going on and the church knows it.
I don't know Romney's stance on it. Publicly, he'll be strongly against it no matter what his real stance.
Romney has served as both a Bishop and as a Stake President. In either of those positions, if he were aware of a specific instance of someone practicing polygamy and turned a blind eye to it, he could have lost his own membership. Your implicit assumption that he could secretly support the practice is absurd.

Since you obviously have no access to the official membership rolls, and since Life didn't either, how would you or Life know who is a member and who isn't? Kind of hard to draw a conclusion without that information. Yet you seem to feel free to do exactly that.

When we arrived at our winter home in Arizona we started seeing the Momon adds on TV, I was quite shocked to see them. There is so much misinformation about the LDS church that I guess its time to show the rest of the world that we are just normal, hardworking, honest people like everyone else, no better, no worse. Yes I'm Mormon & yes Mitt Romney scares the "heck" out of me at times. Not because of his religion but because of his political views on certain issues.
One thing for sure, you won't have to worry about him from a moral stand point. Many people keep bringing up the illegal practice of having more than one wife, Mitt has one, Newt....well you can decide for yourself.
I know I cringe everytime I see Harry Reid speak, I have no idea how he can claim to be Mormon, he seems very hard & mean spirited. Strong moral values is a good start but our country is in big trouble & what we need is a strong, smart leader. I think both Mitt & Newt are capable of leading our country, I sure hope so. If its Newt I can live with that, I haven't decided who I'll vote for, for sure it won't be because of religion.

Dick
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I didn't say the church condoned it. I'm saying that there is a lot of it going on and the church knows it.
I don't know Romney's stance on it. Publicly, he'll be strongly against it no matter what his real stance.


You are just plain wrong on that point. If the church knew about it, those people would be excommunicated. I don't even believe that there are "active" mormons who practice polygamy that are able to hide that aspect of their lives from the church. If they are "active" they are going to church with their kids, their kids are going to activities, people from the church are coming over and visiting them. Something like an extra wife or two would not go unnoticed.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I'm saying that there is a lot of it going on and the church knows it.


Rock Chuck,

That is untrue. If members of the LDS Church are known to be practicing polygamy they are excommunicated.

There may be folks who claim to be members and there are several off shoots of the LDS church that practice it, but please do not confuse them with us.

I realize you have differences with the LDS faith, but please don't spread untruths about it.


I'm not a big Romney fan, but I will vote for him.
I trust most everything the mormon folks on this site say about Mormon's, especially rNr, having met him, he is one stand up guy, and he and his wife are good honest folk. If Mitt is the GOP candidate, that's where my vote for President will go, his religion is not effecting that in any way shape of form.
I believe Mitt Romney is a "high priest" of the Mormon church; do you think he would be able to choose country over religion? I ask, because I think it's relevant. After all this is a church whose former prophet, Joseph Smith, declared himself King, and ordered the destruction of a private printing enterprise that was about to publish revelations about his personal indiscretions.
I know what I see.
Originally Posted by watch4bear
I believe Mitt Romney is a "high priest" of the Mormon church; do you think he would be able to choose country over religion? I ask, because I think it's relevant. After all this is a church whose former prophet, Joseph Smith, declared himself King, and ordered the destruction of a private printing enterprise that was about to publish revelations about his personal indiscretions.


Pretty much everyone over the age of 40 or so is a High Priest in the LDS church.

First of all, you are distorting the facts in regards to Joseph Smith. BUT, let's assume that what you say is totally accurate, let me ask this.

Can we trust a devout Catholic? After all, Catholic popes ordered the murder and torture of thousands of people during the inquisition.

I say that to make a point, I don't actually believe that way. Somehow, you think that slandering someone who died (murdered actually) 2 centuries ago is somehow relevant to Mitt Romney? I'm not a Romney fan, but his faith should not be an issue.
i agree, faith should not be an issue. but, there's lot's of folks who believe differently than you and i.

on sister wives the tv show, they were really against child abuse, etc. the Protestants diaagree amongst themselves. i suspect the Catholics also have disagreements amongst themselves.

and likely, the Baptists also disagree amongst themselves.

if the bigamy laws in Utah are successfully brought down, then the world changes again.

just how many Mormon groups are there? we know there's at least three, according to sister wives TV program, right?
Quote
Joseph Smith, declared himself King, and ordered the destruction of a private printing enterprise that was about to publish revelations about his personal indiscretions.


Made up, silly nonsense again.
Originally Posted by Gus
i agree, faith should not be an issue. but, there's lot's of folks who believe differently than you and i.

on sister wives the tv show, they were really against child abuse, etc. the Protestants diaagree amongst themselves. i suspect the Catholics also have disagreements amongst themselves.

and likely, the Baptists also disagree amongst themselves.

if the bigamy laws in Utah are successfully brought down, then the world changes again.

just how many Mormon groups are there? we know there's at least three, according to sister wives TV program, right?


It would be hard to say how many "Mormon" groups there are. There is the main group: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (The right one ;)). They are the ones that send out missionaries with black name tags and they number about 14 million.

Then there are several more (All break offs occurred shortly after Joseph Smith's death). There are the FLDS (fundamental LDS) who practice polygamy and dress in pioneer clothes and live in compounds (think Warren Jeffs).

Then there are other ones that practice polygamy but live otherwise normal lives. Think Sister Wives.

Then there are the RLDS (reorganized LDS) and who are more recently called the Community of Christ. They don't practice polygamy.

I would guess the combined membership of all off-shoots to be around 250,000-300,000. There is no intermingling of the churches though. We (mainstream mormons)think of them just as different (if not more different in the case of FLDS) as any other religion. Again, any member practicing polygamy is excommunicated.

Edit to add- These are not "disagreements between themselves". It's not like "well I believe the creation literally happened in 7 days and they don't" type thing. It's more of a "They follow Muhammed and we follow Christ" difference.
Originally Posted by denton
Quote
Joseph Smith, declared himself King, and ordered the destruction of a private printing enterprise that was about to publish revelations about his personal indiscretions.


Made up, silly nonsense again.


heh, friend, just to further clarify, for the readership, you have attributed a post to me that i didn't make. sorry, off-topic.

i've been illegally mis-quoted before, by the masses, so no problem there. grin

so, what difference does it make, if we're of the Native American Spirituality, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, follwers of Ganesh, etc, etc?

what are the requirements for a President of the USA in 2012?
Quote
Somehow, you think that slandering someone who died (murdered actually) 2 centuries ago is somehow relevant to Mitt Romney? I'm not a Romney fan, but his faith should not be an issue.


Of course his faith is an issue. Where exactly is he on capitol punishment, and abortion? Could he order the launch of nuclear weapons if needed? Don't question his faith indeedgrin

Where is his loyalty to church or country? What does the mormon church teach on these subjects?

I only have history to go by...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_raid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nauvoo,_Illinois#The_.22Mormon_War_in_Illinois.22_and_the_Mormon_Exodus









Originally Posted by Gus
Originally Posted by denton
Quote
Joseph Smith, declared himself King, and ordered the destruction of a private printing enterprise that was about to publish revelations about his personal indiscretions.


Made up, silly nonsense again.


heh, friend, just to further clarify, for the readership, you have attributed a post to me that i didn't make. sorry, off-topic.

i've been illegally mis-quoted before, by the masses, so no problem there. grin

so, what difference does it make, if we're of the Native American Spirituality, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, follwers of Ganesh, etc, etc?

what are the requirements for a President of the USA in 2012?


My only requirement is strict adherence to the constitution. Which Romney fails at. So I understand not liking him for that, but people are bigots for not liking Romney for his religion. I would take a Muslim over a Mormon (I am mormon) if he/she followed the constitution.
Quote
My only requirement is strict adherence to the constitution. Which Romney fails at.



Is that to say, Mormons put country and constitution before their religous beliefes, but Mitt Romney does not? Is he another sect of mormonism?
Originally Posted by watch4bear
Quote
Somehow, you think that slandering someone who died (murdered actually) 2 centuries ago is somehow relevant to Mitt Romney? I'm not a Romney fan, but his faith should not be an issue.


Of course his faith is an issue. Where exactly is he on capitol punishment, and abortion? Could he order the launch of nuclear weapons if needed? Don't question his faith indeedgrin

Where is his loyalty to church or country? What does the mormon church teach on these subjects?



You act like there is going to be some horrendous event where Romney will have to choose between church and country. "Ok, Romney, we have to kill the U.S. or the Mormon church, which one are we gonna kill?"
Quote
Some of the fringe offshoots of the Morman community are spooky.


There are some seriously spooky "offshoots" of the Christian faith as well. No "macro" religious group is without its faults.

As to the statements (not yours luv2) that "it may not be condoned, but it's common knowledge" in regards to polygamy, what about kiddy-touching priests in several major Christian faiths (not simply isolated to Catholics). It was damn sure common knowledge, but not condoned.

There's enough reasons to dislike Romney, IMHO. I'm not concerned in the least with his Mormon faith.

George
Quote
You act like there is going to be some horrendous event where Romney will have to choose between church and country.


Get a clue, he's already waffled on abortion. Is Mittsy a mormon or not?
Originally Posted by watch4bear
Quote
My only requirement is strict adherence to the constitution. Which Romney fails at.



Is that to say, Mormons put country and constitution before their religous beliefes, but Mitt Romney does not? Is he another sect of mormonism?


If you have any doubt about how the Mormon church feels about the U.S.A. please read this: Proper role of government

Now, I know it is hard for you to grasp, but the Church doesn't control the views and actions of it's members (see Harry Reid). So there are strict constitutionalists and there are liberals and everything in between in the church.
Originally Posted by watch4bear
Quote
You act like there is going to be some horrendous event where Romney will have to choose between church and country.


Get a clue, he's already waffled on abortion. Is Mittsy a mormon or not?


What are you trying to get at? If I say he is, you will say "Well then he isn't a good mormon then." In which case your worries about him choosing mormonism over country should be dissolved.

If I say he isn't a mormon then the same outcome occurs.


I believe he is a mormon though...So make whatever conclusion you wish.
Quote
the Church doesn't control the views and actions of it's members (see Harry Reid).



Isn't that what excommunication is about?
Quote
Isn't that what excommunication is about?


No.

With the exception of actively working against the church, members are pretty much free to follow whatever course of action they choose, especially in politics.
You can be excommunicated for polygamy, how about abortion?
Originally Posted by watch4bear
You can be excommunicated for polygamy, how about abortion?


you've been willing to engage a serious subject.

just how many souls should be able to incarnate down here on the Earth at one time, and still manage to escape starvation?

if the Chinese love German vehicles, while the rest of us love Japanese, American, and .etc vehicles, who is more right? anyone know for sure?

polgamy, bigamy, abortion, birth control, & hot unprotected sex. how does it all fall out, anyone know for sure?? grin
[quote=watch4bear]You can be excommunicated for polygamy, how about abortion? [/quote

Romney had an abortion? That's impressive......

George
Originally Posted by watch4bear
You can be excommunicated for polygamy, how about abortion?


Having an abortion, yes.

Let me do the work for you here:

"Well then why hasn't Romney been excommunicated for not pushing harder for laws against abortion?"

My answer (not official church doctrine):

The church's stance is that abortion is allowable in cases of rape. So, how would you go about legislating that? You would have to prove that every girl who wanted an abortion was raped. Which would only grow government even more. Legislating morality is a lot harder and more evil than encouraging people to have morals.

My defense for abortion in case of rape:

I am "pro-choice", meaning that women should have the choice to have sex with whomever they want. Then, they have to deal with the consequences of their actions (ie std's, pregnancies). So, in a case where consensual sex leads to a pregnancy, the woman has already made her choice. In the case of rape, the woman was not given a choice in the matter.
Originally Posted by NH K9
[quote=watch4bear]You can be excommunicated for polygamy, how about abortion? [/quote

Romney had an abortion? That's impressive......

George


"Retroactive abortion for politicians"?
grin
The "I'm a Mormon" adds are just about 20 second bits that feature someone that mentions a few of their hobbies or profession that might be just a little unique. Usually with a some sort of original twist, and then ends with the "and I'm a Mormon" line.

One lady might be an artist and run a small business. Some other guy might be a weekend biker and run a motorcycle shop. Seems like mostly just a push to protray themselves as regular folks. I did think it odd though that they surfaced with Mit and wondered if his group or the church was sponsoring the effort. One can bet though that Mit will harvest that block of votes.

I find the LDS focus on family admirable, and church youngsters seem to have better work and behavior ethics than other kids in our community. When holding positions of authority, however, a disproportionate amount of hiring seems to come from within the church. I.e. There is an effort to take care of and reward their own, sometimes even passing over superior but pagan talent.

On the downside, I have found it sad when some kid of less than stellar history is forced to hold their wedding in the church parking lot. Doesn't seem like the kind of behavior that would encourage them to stay within the ward. Along those likes, the real goal is to have sufficient standing for a wedding in one of the central Utah temples.
1minute,

Nobody is forced to have their wedding in the parking lot. I've been to weddings in the ward houses where one of the couple wasn't even a member of the church.

There are standards to be married in the Temple. The standards are well known. And by the way it isn't as if once you make a mistake you can never come back. If that was the case none of us would be in the church. A less than stellar past does not preclude anything. Bringing your life back to church standards opens up every opportunity within the church. Repentance/forgiveness are basic doctrines in the church. Even ex-communicated members are invited to return to full church membership.
off topic i know, but i like the idea that the Baptists, are allowed to have their hometown in the USA. the Catholics finds their home in Rome, Italy. the Jews finds their home in Jeruselem, Israel.

der Muslims, well, they like Mecca, right?

but, the Mormons, they found a central home in Utah. what a concept.
now, how should we best integrate the various groups, in order to face the coming of the Christos? grin
Quote
but, the Mormons, they found a central home in Utah.


and in mesico, don't forget mesico.
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wAkKl3Y8xmQ[/video]
Originally Posted by denton
Oh, well, if it was in Life, and on Wikipedia it must be accurate.

Just about the quickest way to become an ex-Mormon is to tell your Bishop that you've got more than one wife.


denton,

I guess my friends long ago in the Pahrump Valley didn't worry about this. I once asked a young man whether I could hunt quail on his land, and he said he needed to ask. An older gentleman was summoned to meet me. He said I would be welcome, as long as the young man accompanied me.

I asked the young man if he would hunt with me, and he said he had no shotgun. I handed him my Savage 24 in 20ga/30-03 to use, and he beamed. He wasn't much of a shot, but he got some birds; I shot a limit of 10.

When it came time to leave I thanked him and asked that I be able to thank the older gentleman, also. I shook hands with both, handed back the Savage 24 to the young man and all but two quail I had shot. I said I only needed two for a meal. The older gentleman gave a small wry smile and extended to me an open invitation to hunt the family property and most other property in the Valley any time. They also ran into the edge of the alfalfa field and got a big watermelon for me.

In later trips back I learned the older man had "several wives", and that he pretty much was law there among his people. I have never been treated better in my life, and I bet the family all used that Savage for many years.

The community was for the most part pretty closed, and I felt honored to be so welcomed, not being Mormon.
Sycamore,

Interesting article. I am LDS but not offended nor am I suprised by it's content.

I was raised in a "split" religion family with my mother LDS and my father Presbyterian. I grew up listening to (and still do!) all of my dad's assessments, judgements, criticisms, and even praises of the Church, it's history, it's teachings, it's leaders, and it's modern day members. He has never been able to agree with all of the Church tenets and beliefs... obviously he is not a member! But, he married a very "active" LDS woman, calls many LDS people his closest and most reliable friends and professional associates, supported his children being raised in an LDS environment, and even moved us all to Utah in the 1970's to escape what he perceived to be a "decaying" environment in which to raise kids in Southern California. We agree to disagree a lot but still love and respect each other.

"Faithful" Church members are expected to live to pretty high standards. Last time I checked, no perfect man has walked the face of the earth other than Christ himself... the rest of us all fall short, including LDS members ie. Mitt Romney. The timeline of mortality along with repetition, repentance, forgiveness, knowledge, and wisdom all give us a chance to shed some of our imperfections and become more like Christ which is our goal. The principle of "free agency" makes it MY choice to choose and only I will be held accountable for MY choices. My "challenge" has always been to focus on my own life and imperfections rather than those of others. I struggle with the hippocracy of those who adhere to LDS principles on Sunday and then live by others during the week to their convenience because this is not what we adhere to believe. I concede that it is a challenge for all of us to be "in the world" but not "of the world". Most fall short! What you see in most faithful LDS members is "good" people trying to get "better".

I will add that this is not the exclusive realm of LDS members!My Presbyterian and Lutheran relatives were/are some of the most solid, "good" people I have ever come in contact with. While I have many wonderful LDS friends, three of my closest are Catholic and Greek Orthodox. They would give me the shirts off their backs and I would do the same for them. Many others who I have come in contact with during my education and with my employment who have made me a "better" person are not LDS nor do they have any interest in becoming LDS. They are just "good" people and that is what it is really all about, being "good" and trying to become "better" or inspiring those around you to be "better".

To address watchforbear's question, I think Mitt Romney can choose country along with religion and not cheat either or alienate his charge to separate church from state.

1. He can satisfy his LDS faith by living by it's tenets in his personal life, setting an "example" for all to see, perhaps inspiring others to agree with some of his beliefs, but not forcing them on anyone. This is consistent with our belief in the principle of "free agency" to choose.

2. He can satisfy the expectations of the people as POTUS by upholding the principles of the Constitution and adhering to the "law of the land" which is required of all faithful Church members as spelled out in the "Articles of Faith". They represent the will of the people, not necessarily the will of the "Church"... any church!!! How else do we uphold that sacred right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Tolerance and respect within the law are the answer.

If elected, it is Mitt's choice to make and I think he has the wisdom to make good choices. Is he perfect, no! You could say the same for Jon Huntsman, another "Mormon". Harry Reid is LDS... some of his "core" values should be the same as Romney's and Huntsman's yet it would appear that his "life experiences" have led him to the other end of the spectrum wrt his views and political philosophies. I would love to sit in a room with him and ask him some questions. Most LDS tend to be a pretty conservative bunch but it is not a "reqirement" leaving room for personal "revelation"/interpretation/free agency/accountability.

I personally could be happy with Mitt or Newt. There are things I like about both. I'd rather somebody who is not prostituted to any one group of Americans. I'd rather someone other than an attorney... already overepresented and enjoy gridlock too much (inefficient). Given our "divided" population, I would prefer someone who presided from near the "middle" on the consrvative side given my Republican bias to try to create a more healthy "bell shaped curve" wrt views, socioeconomic status, etc. rather than the "barbell shaped curve" that seems to exist today.

The old adage that "together we stand, divided we fall" seems to be applicable more than ever before. There are many right now who would love to see us fall because we got distracted internally.

Say what you will, but if Mitt gets elected and leads with integrity, honesty, uses his leadership skills to bring people together, extracts a little sacrafice from ALL Americans in different ways to make America stronger, alienates none completely, instills trust among all Americans, and puts a realistic "American Dream" (not defined by reality TV) within the reach of the majority of Americans I think he will be looked upon favorably. It will likely take more than one leader... bouncing between far right and far left every 4-8 years ain't going to get it done anymore and the clock is ticking.

Through hard work, education, good parents, others who have cared about me along the way, and a little "luck" I have fallen into that upper "5%" of Americans. I am grateful but not content. It does me no good in the long term big picture if the other 95% of Americans are struggling. This includes my customers, my relatives, friends, hunting buddies, etc. I want everyone to have some success... makes the big wheel go 'round.

Disparity, while inevitable, is not a good thing in the extreme.
Originally Posted by watch4bear


Hey man, I agree with you on that video. Rommey is not the best man for the job. But it isn't because of his faith.

Quote
if Mitt gets elected and leads with integrity, honesty, uses his leadership skills to bring people together, extracts a little sacrafice from ALL Americans in different ways to make America stronger, alienates none completely, instills trust among all Americans, and puts a realistic "American Dream" (not defined by reality TV) within the reach of the majority of Americans I think he will be looked upon favorably.



I'm not so sure. Christ was crucified for less grin
luv2safari...

What a cool story. Good for you!

Your new friends probably called themselves Mormon, and may belong to one of the break-offs. It's very unlikely they were members of the mainstream LDS Church. Even in the hinterlands, the church does not turn a blind eye.

All that said, my guess is that I would have enjoyed those folks as much as you did. We can all enjoy one another, and have good friendships, and still disagree about a lot of things.
True!!!

I still have faith that the "American" on average is inherently good and smiled upon accordingly.

The alternative in the extreme, reality for some, is "kill or be killed". On a large scale, I see no "winners" there.
Denton, why is the mormon church so dead set against multiple wives? Is it written somewhere? A scriptural passage maybe?
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I know what I see.


Every time this subject comes up, you have the most off the wall perspectives. Most of the chit you say couldnt be further from the truth.

Who ever wrote that article obviously hasnt been to Ogden since 1950.
Originally Posted by luv2safari
Originally Posted by denton
Oh, well, if it was in Life, and on Wikipedia it must be accurate.

Just about the quickest way to become an ex-Mormon is to tell your Bishop that you've got more than one wife.


denton,

I guess my friends long ago in the Pahrump Valley didn't worry about this. I once asked a young man whether I could hunt quail on his land, and he said he needed to ask. An older gentleman was summoned to meet me. He said I would be welcome, as long as the young man accompanied me.

I asked the young man if he would hunt with me, and he said he had no shotgun. I handed him my Savage 24 in 20ga/30-03 to use, and he beamed. He wasn't much of a shot, but he got some birds; I shot a limit of 10.

When it came time to leave I thanked him and asked that I be able to thank the older gentleman, also. I shook hands with both, handed back the Savage 24 to the young man and all but two quail I had shot. I said I only needed two for a meal. The older gentleman gave a small wry smile and extended to me an open invitation to hunt the family property and most other property in the Valley any time. They also ran into the edge of the alfalfa field and got a big watermelon for me.

In later trips back I learned the older man had "several wives", and that he pretty much was law there among his people. I have never been treated better in my life, and I bet the family all used that Savage for many years.

The community was for the most part pretty closed, and I felt honored to be so welcomed, not being Mormon.


And they weren't mormon..FLDS
This was about 40 years ago. I don't know what the church structure was then, but I do know I always felt welcomed when I returned.

There wasn't all the hoopla about plural marriages back then, I know that.
They are all over the deserts of the west, keep to themselves mostly. Friendly,but a strange bunch no doubt.
Originally Posted by watch4bear
Denton, why is the mormon church so dead set against multiple wives? Is it written somewhere? A scriptural passage maybe?


It is written, the 1890 proclamtion disavowing polygamy is now part of the standard works of Mormon scripture...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_Manifesto#The_Manifesto
Quote
There wasn't all the hoopla about plural marriages back then, I know that.



Are mormons for more wives and the government says no, or do they side with the government, that one is enough?
© 24hourcampfire