...from non-military, non-law enforcement hands anyway. Now, I'm not saying banned. I wouldn't support a ban, confiscation, etc. I'm just saying if they (magically) disappeared, I think we would be better off. I've been around guns over half a century and they have been my main hobby all these years. Let me add, I've had many debates with liberals over the years about, "assault" weapons, logically pointing out the folly of seeing these weapons as more deadly/dangerous because they are painted black, have a plastic stock, etc.

I've shown many my Remington M08 .35 semi-auto circa 1906 and pointed out the main difference between this rifle and the typical "assault" type rifle is that it is not painted black, the .35 is a much more powerful and deadly cartridge than the .223 and my rifle is less likely to jam. True it holds less than most .223's but again, a rifle that jams is not to be coveted.

Again, I don't want to see them banned as of course, it is just one step closer to all of our guns going away. However, I don't like the culture that steadily builds around these weapons. I don't like seeing young people drawn to these weapons vs. hunting weapons. When I was a young boy and teenager in school, my friends and classmates had three topics: cars, guns and the fairer sex. We brought gun catalogs in school and passed them around. If the teacher caught us with one, he would confiscate it but only so he could read it and then would give it back.

The only black rifle that was around back then was the AR-15. I recall the sporting goods store I frequented would often have one on hand (probably the same one - they weren't a good seller). I would pick it up and shoulder it and it was a conversation topic with my friends. The bottom line was even though it had some appeal to all of us, none of us wanted one bad enough to save up for it.

For the past many years I have heard my gun show friends sputter a lot about these rifles. A common comment: "all the young guys seem to be after is those damn black rifles." I was at a bookstore yesterday and it seems the majority of the gun magazines focus on new, "assault" style weapons. This also includes the shotguns such as the Kel-tec bullpup that hold about 14 rounds and now a Sig that holds 16 shells (four tubes that rotate) and can be emptied in less than seven seconds. These are not designed for sporting purposes such as hunting, shooting clay pigeons, target practice.... These weapons have one main purpose - to kill others. And, I don't minimize the need to be prepared to defend oneself. If forced to defend myself, I would use a gun but an "assault" weapon wouldn't be my first choice.

I've existed side by side with "assault type" weapons. For most of that time my attitude had been more neutral. Basically, I don't ask that you like the guns I like; don't ask me to be excited about the guns you like. Again, to summarize, my main issue is the culture that is escalating around them. I would call it a culture of fear that I don't see as healthy. I am feeling more troubled when I see young teenage boys drooling over assault weapons.

So, I don't want to see anyone's black rifles and shotguns taken away, but if they just magically vanished I don't think we as a society would be worse off. I'm showing my age of course, but I would just like to go back to the time when no one had much interest in them.

Let me just close the last zipper on my flame suit....

I don't fish for bass. I think those small boats with huge engines are noisy and dangerous. I've read that kids waterskiing have been run over, hurt and killed by these over powered boats.

I want all bass boats to disappear. There should be laws.

Happy now? Same argument. Nobody "needs" a 16' boat with 240 horsepower.

There are 300,000,000 people in this country. You can have just 1 per month do something horrible and let the media and internet run with it to get everybody in a frenzy.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 was in response to what? It solved what? Nothing is what it solved, but it is this type of incidence that gets the gun grabbers fired up.

1. Your well intended thinking is what the communist leaders called "useful idiots". It is precisely why the Second Ammendment is in danger, precisely why Hitler was able to incrementally eliminate pesky constitutional laws and incrementally move a "civilized" nation into secret police and death camps. You think that you are only giving up a few rifles that don't interest you and that nobody really "needs". You are giving up the Second Ammendment and the whole ball game.

2. They are not assault rifles. They have a handle shaped like assault rifles. Changing the handle on a semi-auto rifle no more makes it an assault rifle than camo painting a VW bug makes it an Abrams tank. You know that, but using the anti-gun choice of words gives up the discussion before it starts.

I'm with you --here in military base heaven, florida -all you see at gun ranges is young soldiers and freak punks tattoed up -tactical this zombie that -double tapping everything blah blah blah .
There's a new range opening up that has rapid fire weekend every couple of weeks -I hear/read it a real ar -ak -black clothes party.
People report going there then leaving due to the unsafe nature of the place and the actions of the people there .
We all know that people kill people but all this tactical -zombie double tap crap need to be curbed -going to a gun range and shooting at people targets just isn't the way it should be !-The GOV't doesn't need to be involved in gun control -period -citizens need to be more involved and try to curb some of this silliness that is going on in the firearms industry -I believe many firearms producers are cutting their own throats.
I have no problem with AR's or any other guns -full auto for that matter -but to none gun people these Rambo wannabee rapid fire types scare them -they scare me too.

That was a completely unfair response, hatari. A better analogy would be how I feel about power boats. I don't want them banned, and I don't campaign against them. But I would like to see a world where there weren't so many people desiring them and selling their freedom (borrowing money) to acquire them. I would like more people to experience the health benefits of human and/or wind powered boats. But I can live with the present condition and even defend the use of powerboats.

I'm not even going to start. Oh, what the heck yes I am!

So take up all the "assault" weapons. Make them disappear. You'd still have M4's and ARs, because they are not "assault" weapons. They are simply high-er capacity semi-autos.

Any crazy could kill just as many 6-year olds with a gallon of gasoline. A Ruger 10-22 would be darned effective, too, with only a few 10-round mags. So would a machete. Two old fashioned wheel guns gives a crazy 12-shots. How many does it take?

God help me I hope I'm not giving any crazy any ideas, but you get the point? There is no limit to the weapons ready at hand if a crazy wants to do crazy things. The answer to crazy's is instant deterent.

Thanks, Hatari. You just saved me a lot of typing.

Boltman, you are misguided. Well intentioned probably, but misguided.

I'd like to go back to television that didn't portray the gay and lesbian lifestyle as perfectly natural.

I'd like to go back to a time when it was nearly scandalous for Loretta Lynn to sing about the pill.

I'd like to see young men keep a haircut that kept their hair off their ears and their collars.

I'd like to go back to carrying pistols that weren't made largely out of plastic.

It seems I was born too late.

Bingo!

It's interesting. I remember when Clinton started his gun control laws people who ordinarily would not have any interest in "black rifles" (though back then it was more about AKs) went out and purchased them in protest. Yes, I remember that well. In fact, people who had no interest in firearms at all went out and purchased AKs and their clones.

I have zero interest in "black rifles", never have and probably never will. I love shooting, hunting and collecting. My greatest passions are probably bolt action rifles and single action handguns. Bird hunting isn't that big of a deal to me but I do enjoy over and under shotguns. Basically, I love hunting guns. So, in the grand scheme of things, my firearms interests lie way outside of this "culture" you are talking about. With that said, give an inch and they will take a mile. Why? It's simple: any laws that they set up will not be effective. When these new laws don't work, they will make more and so on and so forth. And of course there is a more sinister agenda behind gun control. We all know the score.

I do not know what the solution to the problem is with our society with regard to violence. Well, I do. But many here are not receptive to a discussion about God so I will not push that. I'm not interested in arguing. All I know is that we live in an ever-changing society that is OBSESSED with the internet, TV, media in general and instant gratification. How can you fight that? We've lost the minds of a whole generation of children who are so far out of touch with the history of our country that they might as well have been born in the Soviet Union. They want gifts and services from the government. They want protection. They are oblivious to history.

It's not the arms that scare me as much either as it is the conversations in front of the counter on how many folks one can line up and eliminate with a specific bullet or caliber. That line of reasoning just plain bothers me, and I will never hang out with someone who uses that as justification for a purchase.

I own and use a ton of guns for hunting or recreational shooting purposes. None of my acquisitions ever had anything to do with penetration or destruction. Their applications are near always relevant to ballistics. There are places where the 22 LR is great, the 45-70 is just the ticket, and a 30-378 will be just the cat's ass.

For some unknown reason, I'm not a semiauto fanatic, but accuracy is a real turn on regardless of caliber.

You might get your wish.

Dianne Feinstein To Introduce Assault Weapons Ban On First Day Of Congress

For the most part, we aren't allowed to have assault weapons, but I have a semi-auto 223. It would make a poor defense against our peoples most dangerous enemy, which would be tyranny, which seeks to enslave you and me,,OP.

Along with death and taxes, a third certainty is that when someone attempts to express a thought on the Campfire, that thought will be (mis)interpreted by anyone who wants to see it as a threat to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, vilifying the poster, and attributing to him the very things that he attempted to disclaim in the original post.

Maybe another way I could phrase my wish: "I wish there was never any threat to owning a black/assault (pick your term - I do realize the inadequacy/incorrectness of the term) firearm."

Telling people they can't have something or they may not be able to buy something in the future is amazingly powerful. I'll have to talk to a liberal and see if I can't get them to see this. The Clinton ban did more toward creating a thirst (and hence growing culture) for these type weapons than any other event/act. I certainly agree - if you want to understand why there is such a desire for these weapons, look to the liberals and democrats.

I'm sure that boltman will take a lot of heat for his statements here, and I'm also sure that many--like the poster above--will misconstrue his thoughts as support for the banning and confiscation of "black guns" or "assault rifles" call them what you will. But I find myself nodding in agreement with much of what boltman has to say on this issue.

At 54 I have been a lifelong shooter, hunter, and gun collector, but much of what I see on dealer racks and at some gun shows troubles me. Stealth and rate of fire has replaced high quality, accuracy, and aesthetic beauty. Dealer tables look more like people are preparing for war than for hunting season. Like boltman, I find no interest in these guns; I find them boring and sort of pathetic and laughable. I pass them by in search of pre-war Savages and Winchesters.

Whether or not the strong presence of black guns causes an actual shift towards a more dangerous society is debatable (and no doubt we will see this debate unfold in the days and weeks ahead). What is certain however is the fact that the overwhelming presence of black guns on dealer shelves and in the sporting press makes people outside the shooting fraternity damned edgy, and it makes them question ALL guns and shooting sports.

In the year ahead, the shooting community is going to have to thrash this issue out. Are we in the hunting and shooting community willing to unquestioningly support black guns even if that will mean a backlash against the rest of us who have zero interest in their use? I don't know the answer.

Rod

I'd like to see people who want assault weapons to disappear.... disappear!

I would be HAPPIER to see detailed root case analysis/cause mapping of this incident (and other recent mass shootings) performed before any "simple solutions" are selected. No emotion, no opinion. Let's find out what led to what and assign action items.

When I say I don't like the current weapons culture I am seeing, I am also saying: I don't like what the liberals/democrats have done to us. I really don't like that a significant amount of our populace does not support the second amendment and a frightenly large number are opposed to it.

CLICK D LINK

And this is why I am proud to call you a friend.

I'd just be happy to see crybaby liberals who are lost in the delusions of "Disneyland like society" just disappear...

I'd be happy to see the possibility of tyranny disappear. I'd be happy to see the southern border secured so that ranchers, hunters and residents aren't in fear for their lives and need to go armed. I'd be happy if race riots didn't happen in large cities and minority shop owners didn't need to defend their families and businesses.

But even if all of that happened, there'd still be prairie dogs that needed killing.

The weapon of choice ( due only to availability) in Third World countries is the machete.

The ethnic cleansing violence that has swept through many African countries in the past bunch of years was carried out with machetes. Many thousands of "innocent" people have died this way Do you want to see machetes disappear?
It's not the tool it's the brain and the evil that can consume it that are the problem.
I've heard quite a few "gun" folks claim they would be OK with getting rid of assault weapons because they are only for killing people. This, while standing at the trap field holding a shotgun. In their minds it's the gun's fault and they are stupidly thinking that the liberal gun haters will be satisfied with the assault weapons and leave their "good" guns alone.
What dreck! Your post is so full of misguided notions that I really don't hold much hope that mine will even register in your warped perception.

Get your head out of your posterior and understand that we all (gun owners) need to stand up and fight this with much more vocal and personal support (especially money).

If a drunk driver caused the death of 20 children on a school bus, would it be reasonable to ban cars? Or maybe just the kind of car he happened to be driving that day? Cause if there were no more cars we wouldn't have to worry about any more deaths due to drunk driving. Does taking a person's drivers licensee away from them stop them from getting behind the wheel and driving drunk? Has gun legislation ever stopped the bad guys from getting guns?

People that commit these crimes are psychopaths. They don't need an "assault" rifles to carry out these deeds. You cannot legislate intent. We've seen similar crimes committed in other countries without any guns involved.

Boltman: Do you really believe that an all out ban on "assault" weapons would have changed the outcome of what that guy went to do their Friday? If that is the case... that is disappointing.

boltman, none of that makes any damn sense at all. Might as well just wish for a 'my little pony' world, where all is perfect, and folks just love each other, and always do the right thing.

That isn't going to happen either.

You might well wind up needing a nomex suit.

IMO, your root cause is a mental defect looking for weakest to bully with inherit media hype.

Every time I get fed up with you and put you on ignore I let a few months go by and peak only to find you are making good sensible posts.

Mr Bricktop, sometimes you confuse the heck out of me.

Look up the definition of "inherit," [bleep], and decide if that's the word you want to use in your half-assed attempt at insulting me. Ignorant f*ck-ass.

I didn't buy a black rifle when Clinton's AWB was about to be passed and I didn't buy a black rifle when Obama was elected the first time. However, I went over to my local gun shop yesterday and bought one of only four that he had left. This was not a protest against anything. I just figured that if I was ever going to get one, there is probably no time like the present. The shop owner said that he had been through multiple pages of sources on the internet yesterday and all of them were showing "zero availability".

Quite frankly, I blame the entertainment industry. A few years ago, someone surveyed prime time television shows and found that a viewer could conceivably watch literally hundreds of people being "killed" on television each week. Despite Hollywood's supposed horrific aversion to firearms (or perhaps because of it), it has been a long damned time since I watched any kind of drama that didn't include the criminal and or LE use of firearms in the plot line. My wife watches the No. 1 show on television religiously (NCIS). Despite only looking casually, it seems to me that on just about every episode involves a homicide and a justified shooting. Movies are just as bad.

Video games are even worse. They give the player(s) an enormous number of opportunities to obliterate opponents (some good, some bad, some just opponents) in the name of fun. I would love to know how many people the average gamer blows away in a typical week. I'll bet that it ranges from the hundreds to the thousands, depending on the games.

My point is that kids these days grow up with this subliminal belief that the ultimate solution to unhappiness or frustration is to pick up a gun or several guns and go kill someone (or a lot of somebodies). They see it every week on television or in the movies or in their gaming. People die, often horribly, and there are no real world repercussions.

I honestly don't know what to do about it.

"Gun control" is not a popular issue among the majority of Americans, gun owners and NON-gun owners. The right wants to use it as a wedge issue and have done so effectively. The element on the left who want to advance that agenda are morons.

Labeling and banning "assault weapons" and "automatic handguns" is only a means to treat the symptoms of a more complex problem.

I'm not going to come down to hard on what you wrote, Mister. Like you , I find the "Double Tap / Tacticool" culture boring, and certainly not my particular area of firearms enthusiasm.

That said, I'd have to say that you and the demented beotch that wrote the quote above are pretty clueless as to just WHERE some of your fellow Americans live, and WHY they want to have this class of arm handy.

Wait,....you're as far as I can see, still American,...as far as the hosebag goes,....well,.......

Thanks for your views, regardless, and have a wonderful Christmas .

Greg

You are officially partially brainwashed by the libtards; please heal yourself.

You are drinking the liberal kool-aid.

Just stop and really think about it. Think: could these shootings have been done with a 30-30 or revolver? (Yes)

You will then be healed.

The term: "assault rifle" and "automatic" in place of "semi-automatic" need to disappear, along with a lack of reasoning.

To fix things lets ask, "Why is this done?" and "Are they not afraid or bothered of the consequences or results?"

The culture needs a repair.

I can understand the urge to ban high-capacity assault-style weapons... I also know the anti's will never stop there, so despite my own personal opinion, I will never support such a ban. A line has to be drawn somewhere. This is where I draw mine.

OTOH, I can't see why firearms training shouldn't be mandatory for the owning of a firearm... that would go a long way to curing our problems.

Everyone loves to cite Switzerland and Israel, but I guarandamntee you their firearms training is substantial.

I have to agree with you. I hate "assault weapons". I much more prefer to call them "Defense Rifles"!!!

As to the rest of your post, let me remind you that the ORIGINAL "Assault Weapon" was the single shot, muzzle loading, Brown Bess smoothbore musket, privatley owned and used by the civilian militia.
7mm

A good bit of our issue today is probably related to the term "assault" weapon. There are many of the black arms that I would not call assault weapons, but they do convey the image. Likely a cool factor for a lot of wanna be's.

Put a beautifully crafted Holland and Holland double 500 Nitro and one of the AR look alikes with a 30 rd clip on a table and ask which instills the most fear in a non shooting participant. Any guesses.

Truth is wonderful, but perception is what moves the masses.

Very well stated. And further, a ban of any kind will not prevent the irrational behavior of the criminally minded or mentally challenged. It's only service will be to provide "false security" to those who know schitt about firearms.
It was not the firearm that killed those kids the other day. This was very well planned and consciously thought out by this kid. He could have done the same damage with any .45ACP and a few clips.

The easy fix for .Gov is a ban. It's much harder and would cost much more than they are willing to spend to fix the real problem...if that would even be possible.

Now you did it, off ignore. Let's see how long we can make this one last.

I believe labeling some firearms "assault weapons" and "automatic handguns" was done just to get them banned. I have been in conversations with anti gun people who would have filled their pants if they knew I was carrying when they drop the assault weapon bomb. I then stop and tell them I need an exact definition of the term they are either left speechless or define something that sounds like a SAW. They know that assault weapons are bad but they don't know what they are.

May take a while and a few government grants. From yesterday's Houston Chronicle:

The science of rampage violence is, alas, in its infancy
Friday, December 14, 2012

Columbine. Virginia Tech. Gabrielle Giffords. The Batman shooting. And now this. What is going on?

After these terrible tragedies people are quick to look for something beyond the shooter to blame: Guns, video games, poor mental health treatment. Some or all of these may be to blame. But rational policy must be based on evidence. And evidence comes from research.

What motivated the Batman shooter?

So what does the evidence tell us about these kinds of terrible tragedies and the people who commit them?

Science can tell us a little about the psychology of these mass shootings, but we�re far from understanding who is doing these things, and how we can better identify them in advance.

Let�s start with the U.S. murder rate. It�s fallen in half during the last two decades, according to F.B.I. data.

Even as this decline has occurred, there seems to be a rise in what researchers have come to call �rampage violence.� Alas as scientists have only begun studying this phenomenon in recent years, our understanding of it is relatively weak.

An article published in June in the American Journal of Public Health (see abstract), for example, argues that present research approaches to understanding rampage violence are not effective, and that �There are numerous important, unanswered research questions that can inform policies designed to prevent rampage violence.�

Harvard�s Shorenstein Center has posted a nice compendium of recent research in this area. Here�s a summary of what we do (and don�t) know:

PREVALENCE INCREASING: �Our current understanding of the phenomenon indicates these incidents are not peculiar to only western cultures, and appear to be increasing. Methods most prominently used include firearms by males who have experienced challenging setbacks in important social, familial and vocational domains. It is recommended behavioral sciences and mental health researchers increase research efforts on understanding mass killings, as the current socioeconomic climate may increase vulnerability to this phenomenon, and the incidents are not well understood despite their notoriety.� (Journal of Police and Criminal Activity, Oct. 2010).

PSEUDOCOMMANDO MASS MURDER: �The pseudocommando is a type of mass murderer who kills in public during the daytime, plans his offense well in advance, and comes prepared with a powerful arsenal of weapons. He has no escape planned and expects to be killed during the incident. Research suggests that the pseudocommando is driven by strong feelings of anger and resentment, flowing from beliefs about being persecuted or grossly mistreated. He views himself as carrying out a highly personal agenda of payback. It is argued that revenge fantasies become the last refuge for the pseudocommando�s mortally wounded self-esteem and ultimately enable him to commit mass murder-suicide.� (Journal of American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, March 2010)

NOT VIDEO GAMES: �The quest to understanding school shootings has led to several wrong turns, most notably the quixotic desire by politicians, advocates, and some scholars to link both school shootings and less extreme youth violence to playing violent video games, despite considerable and increasing evidence to the contrary.� (Journal of Police Crisis Negotiations, 2011.) (Apparently I am wrong about this.)

SCRIPT NOW ESTABLISHED: �Not only do these massacres follow an almost stereotypical course, but the perpetrators tend to share common social and psychological disabilities. They are isolates, often bullied in childhood, who have rarely established themselves in effective work roles as adults. They have personalities marked by suspiciousness, obsessional traits, and grandiosity. They often harbor persecutory beliefs, which may occasionally verge on the delusional. The autogenic massacre is essentially murder suicide, in which the perpetrators intend first to kill as many people as they can and then kill themselves. The script for this particular form of suicide has established itself in western society and is continuing to spread, and to diversify. (Behavioral Sciences and the Law, 2004)

What to make of all this? It�s time for the research community to step up its game on rampage violence.

I have never owned a tactical weapon and likely never will unless we decay so much as a society that I need one. (At which point they will not be available).

However, despite the MASSIVE increases in the sales of "black guns" their use in violent crime has remained very low -- less than 2%. 9mm, 10mm and .380 handguns areused in about 70% of violent crimes.

Why? Those big bulky angular rifles don't stick in your waistband easily. They don't conceal. They are not practical. But they are lot of fun to go out shoot. Multiple targets, action shooting. They a FUN.

And they are rarely ever used in a crime.

BTW, I do not one a weapon. I own some firearms but refuse to call them weapons just because of the image that comes from the word.

I have started to talk about some of my friend's baseball weapons and assault golf weapons but all my guns are firearms.

I had the exact same experience on the day of the shooting. I'd had my eye on a Mini-14 "Tactical Model" for a few weeks, but was waiting till I was more flush with available cash to buy it (I was thinking February), but that plan changed on the day of the shooting. I went right out to find one that very evening.

The first two gun shops I went to, after checking their suppliers, said that there were literally no Mini-14 "Tactical Models" available from any of them, and both clerks said it was likely due to the shooting and them getting gobbled up immediately. I checked one other store, and they happened to have the exact model I was looking for on the shelf, just one left. I snatched it, along with four extra Ruger-made 30 round mags (it came with one 20 rounder).

11 years of highly publicized war, and movies and video games that are in synch with combat operations doesnt help.....but the truth is that it sells. My son is 15 years old, at age 11 he could identify "Black Rifles" at Sportsmans Warehouse and honestly I had no clue what they were, you can thank Call of Duty video games for that and we didnt even buy him those games when he was that little but a lot of his friends parents would.We are a very war minded society and it has a lot of appeal to the younger generations.I have to admit that it is very concerning, I too have been to gun ranges both here in Texas and in Alaska and when you see these kids in the early 20's dressed like they are preparing for a special operation in Fallujah Iraq with a 1/2 dozen 'Black Rifles" and semi autos' strapped to their thighs blasting away at Human shaped targets it is more than disturbing cuz it seems its always one of these detached young idots that spends all day drooling over the God damm things while playiing call of duty Black ops in a dark room that causes these tragic incidents!

Boltman: Do you really believe that an all out ban on "assault" weapons would have changed the outcome of what that guy went to do their Friday? If that is the case... that is disappointing.

I didn't think I wrote anything close to saying I thought there should be a ban or a ban would accomplish anything. In fact, quite the reverse - I think bans and threats of bans are a big part of the problem - which is the resulting reaction. I will say I wish a lot of the weapons that have been sold in the last 4+ years had not been sold. What I mean here is that I wish the poeple that were motivated to buy from panic - didn't feel panicky and hence made purchases on the basis of panic. The ensuing culture that results from panic is not an optimal one.

I want to see all Boltmans disappear.
There's enough superhero figures out there fighting crime and saving humanity that every time I encounter another Boltman I can't help but think of the redundancy factor and just shake my head.

It has come to the point with all these loathsome lippy libiots crusading in their capes to cage countless others over their own statistically insignificant fears of every little thing on God's green earth that I think the time has come to outlaw any and all comic strip characters for the good of mankind.

That or just tell them to pack their chit and move to a country that better reflects their view of how much little freedom a mommy/daddy government should afford its subjects.

Hell YES!
It would have made ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD in CT!

obviously...

when he went in and shot up all those school kids there would NOT have been an "assault" rifle in the trunk of his car parked out in the lot.

Look at it like this, those folks were concerned enough to get prepared to be responsible for their own well being and not dependent on someone else to take care of them. What's wrong with or bad about that?

hauling ass coyotes just missed buy a youngster with a bolt gun, too.

Huh?????

All the victims at the school were shot with a rifle, at least some of them up close, and all were apparently shot more than once, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said. There were as many as 11 shots on the bodies he examined.

Saw a kid at the local gun store pick up an AR, the look of sheer ectasy that came over his face would have been ok if he was fondling his first boob but I was somewhat disgusted. Maybe I felt something of the same when I picked up the Ithaca 37 Santa left me but I don't think so.

Mudhen,
an interesting article and one which at least seeks to shine a light on real problems. Gun owners also need to be more pro-active rather than just digging into their usual hard line defensive position. I think the NRA should consider helping to fund research programs and do so clearly and publicly.
As far as the assault rifle thing is concerned, I do think they almost reflect the reason for the 2nd Amendment. The Second Amendment isn't about guns, it's about liberty and the defence of liberty. The right to keep and bear arms is a defence against tyranny and oppression.
On the other hand, the misuse of any firearm is a threat to liberty so it is important for the pro-liberty, gun owning, population to make a serious effort to help stop this misuse.
There are times when this might mean supporting a Democratic initiative and, if the initiative makes sense, we need to support it.
I really think that, at some point, society has taken some wrong turns and we have to try and find our way back to the proper path.
Most of the perpetrators of crimes such as the one in Newtown are people who might be classified as "losers". If they could be identified earlier and steered right, they might be saved before they derail entirely. If we could do something to short curcuit the crime, we might not have to worry so much about losing our right to bear arms. GD

Facts are such pesky things.

This school massacre was not committed by a person using a gun. More children died than at Sandy Hook School. Note the date.

Insanity and evil have no bounds, nor time limits.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103186662

L.W.

The unrestricted avaiability of semi-automaitcs capable of accepting 20 and 30rd. magazines is the enabling factor in shooters in Aurora, CO, the Oregon mall and now the Conn. elementary school to do their horiffic deeds. Irresponsible individuals like the Conn. shooter's Mom did not secure her weapons where her menetally disturbed son could not access them.
I may not have thought much of Bill Clinton as man or as our President, but he was spot on when he said "I never saw an AK-47 in a duck blind". Weapons as I have described, call them "assault weapons" or whatever you want simply do not belong in the hands of other than the police and military. It is long past the time when this should be recognized and dealt with. GCA '68 was a knee jerk reaction to the assasination of RFK, it has done nothing that I can see to deny any 2A rights that I am aware of. How would those of you who cling so fervently to your assault weapons and your perceived right to own them feel if one of your loved ones were a victim of the shooters in Aurora, the Oregon Mall or the Connecticut elementary school?????????

here it comes,..

I'm starting to fart Rainbows here...

Holy Shyte.

I own a couple of black rifles. I own a few lever guns. I own some revolvers and some auto loading handguns. I own some shotguns and rimfires.

I have no plans to shoot anybody with any of them.

In that regard, I think I'm typical of all but an extremely tiny minority of gunowners.

I am a bit tired of this schit. Did your mommy cut the fingers off of your gloves for you? I do love the "how do I get the mag outta this thing" look. Not to mention the huge flinch when dropping the hammer on a empty chamber. Have seen a few Rambowannabes at our range. Good news is when the dumbphucks run outta money, you can buy their stuff for cheap.

better ban gasoline too...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokeville_Elementary_School_hostage_crisis

OK..I guess I'll be the first....

The " unrestricted availabilty of...."

Automobiles is the enabling factor for over 40,000 Hiway deaths per year..

Tobacco is the enabling factor in hundreds of thousands of deaths annually....

Alcohol is the enabling factor in an undetermined number of deaths annually...

Little toys in Happy Meals is the enabling factor in childhood choking deaths...

I could go on.....

Yepper. Place is full of Zumbos. I expected better.

There's lots of ways of hunting I don't care for and I have no real interest in shooting an M-4 recreationally (and I own one) but I will support law abiding folks to hunt the way they want and shoot what they want.

+1. Its amazing that some people on here dont get it! Give these antigunner and inch and they will take the whole yard. Think about it people!

1. The 2nd has nothing to do with hunting. 2. Guns haven't changed, society has.
3. What were there, 3 or 4 weapons involved? What if they had all been revolvers. That's 18-24 rounds vs 0 in a gun-free zone. Add speed-loaders and... ah, hell, forget speed-loaders, it's a gun-free zone.

Why should le/military be heavier armed than citizens?
Being former military, a firearms enthusiast, and hunter, my opinion is that its not the type of weapon, but the nut case behind the trigger.
We all strive for accuracy. Now take your super accurate bolt gun and put a nut behind it on a grassy knoll, and see how many casualties can be made in a very populated place.

I am all in favor of everyone being armed, and trained, to deal with scenarios like mass shootings, or suicide bombers, or robbers, or anything else lethal force could be used.
5 people are in a 7/11, an armed robber comes in, pulls a pistol, and demands money. Next thing there are 5 guns pointed at him. No more robbery.

+1 again. You guys are taking the words right out of my mouth

Two points, the guns used were not responsible. The shooting could have been done wit a Ruger #1. The second amendment is not about duck blinds, it's about citizens protecting themselves against criminals and the government.

This is the kind of thing that bothers me as well. I also agree with the statement that guns haven't changed, society has. More plastic in them, but as mentioned earlier, centerfire semi-auto rifles have been around for well over 100 years. Detachable magazine-fed centerfire rifles have been available in this country since 1905. They shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger.

But I have seen young teenage boys drooling over the guns in question - and I walk away feeling very concerned.

People need to quit allowing the gun control nuts define everything. An AR-15 is not an assault weapon/rifle. An assault rifle is either full auto or selective fire and that is already covered by the 1934 National Firearms Act which requires you to get a sign off of a controlling law enforcement agent like a DA, sheriff, police chief etc..and you pay the $200 tax and a background check.

Sometimes gun owners can be their own worst enemy.

AR-15, the AR refers to Armalite Rifle.

The entire purpose of the 2nd amendment is not hunting, sport shooting or even self defense. It's to put the fear of god into anyone wanting to opress citizens of the US including it's own government. How fearful do you think they are going to be of a single citizen and his Remington 700? I want every government employee at the federal, state and local level to have the idea in the back of their head at all times and especially when they are knocking on your door that everyone on the other side is well armed.

Just to point on how retarded the whole talk of "gun control" and some people on a gun site even considering caving in....

How many innocent kids do you think could be killed in a GUN FREE zone where a crimminal knows he will encounter very little if any armed response if he had a 6 pack of 6 shot percussion revolvers on his belt for a total of 36 shots...and you can order that thru the mail and all 6 would have totalled less than the price of a decent semi automatic rifle.

They are, and they will go away. But it won't stop at just "assault weapons" That is already in the works. Im a hunter much like many American's. But, do we honestly think their ONLY going to ban "high capacity mags" for firearms?? We can't stop the up and coming laws no more than we could stop Obama care.

You never control a man until you control his food. Just like you will never control the gun until you control it's food. And if you dont know what that is..... well, you can't fix stupid.

Soon they will be nothing more than conversation pieces.

I agree. So let's make them disappear.

While we're at it though, based on your handle, I'm going to assume you have a thing for bolt action rifles.

Now THOSE are evil I tell ya.

High-powered "sniper rifles", with big magnifying scopes, shooting armor-piercing cop-killer bullets, and capable of head shots at 1000 yards.

THOSE are the ones we REALLY need to get rid of, so that the next fatigue-wearing psycho can't sit on a hill half a mile away and pick off kids on the playground.

Those bolt action sniper rifles only have one main purpose - to kill others from long range.

Just to point out that after every one of these [bleep]' disasters, scores of cops toting M4's MP-5's etc are in eveidence YET NONE EVER GOT CLOSE ENOUGH SOON ENOUGH TO HAVE BUSTED A CAP!!!!!! It truly appears that as far as Poice are doncerned, the rifles are about as useful as tits on a boar hog. Take THEM away as useless.

Go away Lib. The libs are controlling your mind!

Yep.

I'd place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the shooter, where it belongs.

Holy dogschit, no wonder the antis are having their way with things. We can't even get on the same page where our basic rights are concerned.

George

OP reminds me of a PT Barnum comment, and the folks that use his kind

Of course the purpose of a firearm is to kill people. You think the founding fathers wanted the constitution to cover the right to shoot paper targets.....man I've read some idiotic stuff on a gun forum today.

It will be interesting to learn if the shooter was on psychiatric medications. There is another thread discussing this. Given the shooter is reported to have mental illness, it wouldn't surprise me to learn he was on medication. Suicide/homicide is a (rare) side effect of some medications. In the event that this event could be related to a medication side effect, would we still place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the shooter?

And with the support of some of our fellow gun owners, more restrictive and completely useless legislation will undoubtedly be passed

It IS NOT the arrow, it IS the Indian.

Too damn many people have lost sight of this simple truth!

It is the evil that walks among us, not the tools it uses.

Just one of the problems with the "guns were designed to kill people" argument.

If you look at history and anthropology, the original purpose of most sports was preparation for war. The war club became a bat, a sword a fencing foil, etc. Contact sports are mock warfare with all kinds of battle analogies, including coaches acting like little generals planning strategy and directing troops. Polo was originally played with enemies' head, IIRC.

So what is the relevance of the fact that guns were originally designed as weapons, except as a kind of philosophical point? So what? A trap gun can be used as a weapon, but so can a baseball bat or golf club, as can any vehicle.

What difference does it make?

Paul

Well put T

Our nation doesnt fear what it was founded upon, and that is our own doom. I read a letter from my wife's great granpa to her grandpa while he was serving in the pacific during WWII. I couldnt help but wish to live in the days when men feared God and spoke like men.

Uh, yes. He is to blame. Not too hard to figure this one out. I dont care what he is on, he did the shooting. He is responsible.

The trend I see in all of this is that alot of these shooters have had mental issues. I say we gather up anyone with a mental disorder that is prone to violence and lock them up, you know just in case. There is evil people in this world that are willing to do evil things. Stuff is going to happen. its awful but more gun regulation is not the answer. Remember, all it took was some box cutters to kill over 3000 people. Guess we need to get rid of those to.

Let's assume he was on meds:
- Was he taking them?
- Was he taking them as prescribed?
- Was he Dr. shopping for other meds?
- Was he self-medicating with other chemicals?

To damn many "was he" issues to make any difference. He took possession of weapons and he went to a school and killed innocents.

Folks can point the finger at guns, docs, lack of God in the classroom, or the utter schithole that this nation is becoming. The fact is that the individual is to blame. We, as a society, make it far to easy to make excuses.

George

I was making the assumption that IF he was on medications, they were prescribed to him by a physician for his mental illness. Just speculation at this point but it is a very common scenario. The other thread on this had information indicating that 100 million are prescribed psychiatric medications. I don't know if it's that high but it is very high. I know the SSRI's have blackbox warnings for young people where suicide and homicide is a concern. Past mass massacre shooters have been on these medications and many people are examining this as a theme.

The same.

Not sure what classfies as an assault weapon. Bet any firearm disappearing up the behind of an anti-gunnner would qualify as an assault weapon. Under those circumstances I think I might have a couple. GW

Now we are getting to what I suspect is the core of the mass shooting problem.

Those who think guns are the problem are naive and have been drinking the kool aid to long to understand the banning of guns won't solve the problem. If you want to get real about all this crap, then start at home. Start talking about how many young people were not provided with a solid structure in their upbringing, where their parents expected someone else to assume the responsibility of raising the children they had. Can you make the link between the expectations of the current generation of "I should have it now, I am special too, I don't need to work hard like everyone else" and I have the right to do what ever I want, with their upbringing?

Where do you think they obtained that mentality and why would they have it if it wasn't supported? Discipline of children has been on the decline for years and whether the lib-idiot left agree or not, that simple principle alone plays a major role in the lack of structure and values we see blatantly missing in todays young generation. Children don't learn like adults, they don't think like adults, nor do they reason like adults. When they are young and impressionable, what they understand and what is instilled, is reinforced by two opposing outcomes in their young lives. Parental support of their positive actions or Parental discipline for their negative and unacceptable actions.

Here is what is real, we have the mentally ill and mentally unstable in our society that most are not comfortable discussing. However understanding they are here and the risk they present requires they be given more attention than others, is being realistic. But most with the lib-idiot mentality would rather not deal with that issue or want to make it the responsibility of some one else or something else versus dealing with the "real" issue at hand.

That idea is supported by the actions of the unrealistic dependency embracing faction of this country, who continue to perpetuate the decline of morals, values, the importance of family, church, and the realistic eventualities of life. How are they doing that you ask? Some examples would include, lack of self respect and understanding responsibility belongs to the individual, willful lack of the understanding that no one owes anyone anything, and they are not entitled to help just because they made poor decisions in life. Now ask yourself where have I seen that before and who has adopted that same attitude?

Making people more dependent upon the government and implementing more of the same that has failed to deliver any positive improvement to date, is not the answer to the problems we have today. Changing the approach and understanding the failures in our society structure is being realistic. People accepting responsibility for their actions and holding themselves accountable is being realistic. Blaming the problems we see today on inanimate objects that can do nothing with out human intervention is not being realistic, it is being naive and once again shedding the responsibility of dealing with the hard realities we all know exist and that we as a society have created.

FOstelogy -

I agree with all that you have said. I hope that doesn't turn people against you

My bad.
Haven't watched the news since yesterday evening when the report was still saying "2 hand guns, rifle in trunk".

Either way, who gives a CHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The point is I don't need or WANT any [bleep] Caped Crusader cartoon characters, nor the dipshit tyrant asseyes they vote into public office trying to save me or mine from evil black guns or evil drugs or any other God Damned thing.

We live in a country full of puss cakes and wankers and petty tyrants all who think their life's purpose is to "help" everyone else.
The whole lot needs told to get lost, OR ELSE!
Then proceed IMMEDIATELY to the OR ELSE part!

I agree with what he said too. Thats different from what you have been saying. IE the name of your original post!

This is a tough issue, especially with recent emotions involved. As a school teacher of 30 years (presently 8th grade science). The type of students that fit the "next shooter profile" are not that hard to spot. They sit quietly at their table not making much eye contact usually looking down. They are generally not very attractive and socially inept. From time to time students will draw some type of attention to their "oddness". Most of them have mediocre grades; every once in a while some seem brilliant. Generally when you meet their parents one or both do not have very good social skills. Other than my own gut feelings/hunches I will not have any data to back up what I am suspecting. Some form of mental illness. I have no where to go with gut feelings. Every one of these "shooters" have had teachers speak of some kind of social problems with these students. This mental illness has to be diagnosed early.

I agree with Boltman. Black guns were made for the military. I advise anyone who listens to sell them into any market strength. Frankly, they are [bleep] in my book. That kid getting his hands on those guns has cost those people and kids everything.

For those of us over 50 or so, there is a "culture" most of us are very familar with and most of us miss. It is the culture of the past. It was a culture with a lot more respect, values, families with two parents and so on. It was a culture where no only didn't kids spend time playing violent video games, but there were no video games, electronics, cell phones, etc. Kids played outside if for no reason, there was nothing to do inside. I remember not only having respect for my neighbors but had was also afraid to lip off to them. Nowdays, kids will lip off to adult neighbors and then stare you down daring you to do anything about it. Let me add that that world I miss was also nearly devoid of the weapons under discussion in this thread. It wasn't because they were banned, legislated against, etc. There was just little interest in them. And that's what I miss. It's part of a bigger package as I just outlined.

You sell yours, I'll keep mine.

Therein lies the problem. We bicker and argue so much among ourselves that we ought to be easily defeated.
George

They are not my fellow gun owners.

Instead of cherry picking they should turn their schit in & go hide under the bed.

They are not responsible enough to be gun owners.


Mike

All you are yearning for is an era without cell phones, satellite tv, or the internet.

Life without "assault rifles"? WTF do call this?



At one point this was the state of the art battle rifle complete with a high capacity magazine. The wacko could have killed just as many with the Lee Enfield as an AR.

Please note - BOLT ACTION!

Let's review:

The perp, AFTER BEING TURNED AWAY FROM A FIREARMS STORE WHEN HE ATTEMPTED TO BUY A GUN OR GUNS, killed his mother, stole three firearms, used a rifle to break into and enter a school, brought firearms into a school, shot and killed 26 people, attempted to murder a 27th while traveling on stolen identity papers.

Are there new laws that would have prevented this or altered the outcome? Would this perp have obeyed them?

Granted, we should have an appropriate discussion on both mental health and controlling access by inappropriate people to firearms. Bad policy responses taken in haste to the request "Do Something!" will not solve this problem but will allow politicians to claim they did something, however useless, inappropriate, and detrimental to our rights and freedom.

If you painted it black, he would 'get' it....

George -

I think you have hit on a very important point. Unfortunately it has been an important point for me today. I feel a whole lot worse about a lot of members of this site after today (and I've been here since 2003). I am also confident many members of this site feel a whole lot worse about me. How is that important? I think you nailed it - "easily defeated."

The wants of a few should not outweigh the right of the many.

That is probably the dumbest post I've seen yet from someone who is very misinformed. My ar's are not the same as the military is currently using. Alot of states allow these to be used for hunting. If you use the military as a guage to which firearms should be banned, we would be missing practically everything we have. Where did the 1911 come from? Our military uses pump shotguns, guess they should go to. How about bolt action rifles in 308? Guess what, they use them too. 9mm side arm is currently being used by our boys. The list goes on and on. People like you only add to the problems we have with a government trying to disarm the people. Please know that I'm not very political. I never post in these sections. Please know this subject means more to me than anything else besides my family so I felt like I should post here. So I will tell you to go to hell with your anti gun rants!!!!

I agree with both of you. Guess that makes me in double trouble.

Oh well, I can live with it. I was out of trouble once. I will never forget it. It was five years old and it was the worst three minutes of my life.

Turn in that 1911 that you love so dearly then.

From it's inception the 1911 was a military weapon , designed only to kill people.



Mike

I recall my grandfather hunted with a sporterized version of one of these. It's still in the family. I also recall showing it to a few of my friends (nearly 50 years ago). It didn't get any oohs or aahs. Not like the kids of present drooling over the modern commerical versions of military weapons.

In a thread in the handguns section discussing mall shooting in OR, and the school shooting in CT, I made a couple of points that I think are relevant to the topic at hand.

In the wake of the series of shootings committed by these monsters, we cannot legislate evil out of the world, nor can we hope that the LEOs will get there fast enough. We must stand ready to deal with it ourselves when it rears its ugly head.

It is the individual who must stand ready to immediately deal with evil. To face evil's violence with violence. Often when I tell people that in conversation they are taken aback. That I would suggest that they become violent when presented with it.

That a LEO would tell them that, to some is unheard of. As much as I would love to protect those who cannot protect themselves, the world is simply too large to be everywhere at once.

To those who refuse to protect themselves, and think that is for someone else to do, for someone else with a family and kids to risk his life each and every time because they are too cowardly, that is another story.

It does not make one single bit of difference if the evil doer is using an AR-15 or a Glock or a S&W .357. The evil that is in a monster's head and heart does not give a damn if you pass any feel good legislation or not.

If they want to commit mass murder, they will. Period. If they want to cut up bodies and put them in their freezer, or blow up, or shoot up a building full of people, they will. They have murderous intent. The only way to stop them is to physically stop them.


Another LEO note, most have no idea how many LEOs risk their lives just getting to the various shooting scenes. They want to get to the scene so badly to stop the killing that they hang their lives out on the thinnest of threads. Running cars all out and still pressing harder on the gas hoping for just a little more speed, trying to figure out a faster way to get to the scene.

Then when they get there, if they are "lucky" there is a bad guy still left to stop to go up against and lives left to save.

As LEOs mature in their career (and slow down), they realize how dangerous that is and how many close calls they have had, losing control of their cars. Many will know of officers dead who never regained control of their car. It still never stops the deepest of desire to stop the killing of our friends, children and neighbors in our communities.

MS

Would we be better?
Doubt it.
I agree with those who say we are forgetting the history of our nation and the idea it was founded upon, that of self-governance. All the other isms taught in school, all the PC garbage in the media, the unrealities presented by nutty video games -- that wouldn't be a problem if the relationship between citizenship and morality (not necessarily religious, but still Golden Rule) was properly taught at school and home.
Not the instrument, but the user. There's a reason it's good we have A Bombs and the Nazis didn't get them first.

Mackay- as usual, your post is spot on, and reflects the voice of reason.

Can you imagine what all the old Indian Fighters had to say about that "new Fangled 1911" pistol?

Got a strange double tap on that one. Dang'puter

Is anyone stupid enough to believe that if "assault weapons" were given up, "they" would be satisfied with that?

Just caught your sig line..


BLACK DOGS BARK AT NIGHT....

Thank you Sir,



I have not seen the new version yet. My sig line change was in response to the political situation we face. All Enemies, Foriegn and Domestic.

I agree with you that they would not be satisfied with this. And I am not suggesting anyone give anything up. I suspect that will be the outcome however, that the Republicans will have to give some and there will be some sort of passage on an "assault weapon ban." As I argue with liberals, I ask do you want to see increased purchasing and hoarding of "assault weapons?" And they respond, "of course not." That's when I point out that it's real simple: drop the talk of any sort of ban and sales and interest will drop.

To the OP, appeasement has worked so well in the past on all issues.

Especially when going up against those holding an ideaology that includes your destruction. Those who disarm always become the pawns and victims of those who don't.

All I can say to that is "So What?" Who gives a rat's butthole about you drooling, or NOT drooling, over a SMLE, or kids doing that over today's rifles? It matters not a whit. I'm 54, and own NO ARs, AKs or whathaveyou, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to start tossing my rights out the window.
When I was under 20, I didn't think much of the ARs, but I was nuts about the 700BDL I bought. Then I enlisted and got to fool with the M16s for about four years. I fooled with several of the varieties of the stuff available then, HK91s, Mini-14s, M1As, M1 carbines, all that stuff. I don't own any of them now, either, the new wore off and I got interested in other things.

But I'm not going to throw them under the bus, just because some punk azzhole kills someone with them. Bolshevik USSR killed a helluva lot more people with M91s.

It ain't about the guns, it's about the control over our own rights, that we'd give up down the road. That's the end of the line goal for the grabbers, not the damned guns. The grabbing of rights would just make it easier for them.

You don't hear anybody saying that when the First Amendment was drafted Ben Franklin's printing press was high tech and the internet not even imagined.

The Brown Bess musket was the M16 of its day.

The Constitution transcends technology.

Paul

Really?

The title of your thread is: "I'd be happy to see assault weapons disappear." Considering the timing of your post, most presumably so there won't be any more mass killing like we saw yesterday. Because that gun is what killed those little angles. Because the assault rifle is the only way this psychopath could have carried out such a cowardly and heinous action? That kind of thinking is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

How many people have successfully defended their lives and properties with black guns? I have no idea cause that information doesn't make it to the news. I suspect however that it is more than the people murdered with them. I do not own a black gun. I have no interest in owning one. However unlike you, I feel that law abiding citizens have just as much a right to own one as you do any of the guns in your collection. Maybe black gun owners don't like your guns. How'd you like them calling you out and coming after you?

When I read the second amendment to the constitution of the Unites States of America, (the most sacred and important document in human history) I take it literally. I am not just concerned with how it applies to me or my opinions.

Yes there are some on here right now that are that stupid!

Please understand that anti-gun folks don't know a lever action from an AR-15 and nor do they care.

After the 1968 gun ban failure, when they went after most guns, and were beaten badly they fully understand the divide and conquer strategy.

Assault Weapon is the boogie man that they use to start picking off guns one at a time.

This will never end and they will never stop.

Appeasement will only lead to more and more bans.

Strength and money will be our only defense. Join the NRA, donate what you can, stay active and most of all don't cave in.

Very well put sir.

Another very good post

My 78 year old mother even gets it and she doesn't own a gun......

And we will all live in harmony holding hands and the politicians will instruct the military and law enforcement to protect us.............. I think I will just keep my black 870 by my bedside.

A lot more people "get it" than the media and left let on...




Is that the OP at 0:14..?

It ain'tright.You ask them dirty bastards from the radical right; they are always fn right don't matter what we talk about they are right. You can bet your ass on that. Anybody that ain't "right", well they just ain't right.

You been sniffin too much obama


Mike

leave

Mike - I have not suggested anyone turn any of their guns in - of any type. I also don't support a, "ban" on "assault weapons." It seems to me that emotions are getting in the way of seeing the fairly fine point I was trying to make.

Divided we fall....

"Divided we fall". Thats funny. Reread the name you gave this thread. "I'd be happy to see assault weapons disappear". Pretty divisive!

Citizens should be equally armed, with small arms, as the military. Isn't the tyranny in your face as it is?

My wish is this country followed the constitution as written and law enforcement carried night sticks and a whistle.

Divided we fall is right boltman and you & your ilk are dividing us. You are happy to vilify ARs & such. By starting this thread you are throwing AR owners under the bus.


Mike

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9JzyTger0w8[/video]

It's all or nothin boltman. Don't go gettin all smart ass on us now.

Boltman - You knew where this was going when you started the thread, so don't claim you feel bad about the 24 HCF members responses.

There a lot of things I don't really like about youngsters today that include noisy assed "personal watercraft", snowboarding, and the damned 2' long dreadlocks weaves the football players wear these days. Welcome to full maturity. I am a father. It is my prerogative not to like them but......

The Anti gun movement wants ANY excuse to curtail gun ownership. History has shown that tragedies are the opportune moments to grab guns. The public is weak and easy to exploit.

So, you are irritated because youngun's "oh and ah" over black rifles. I recall about 1976 that our neighbor bought a Colt semi SP-1 style "black rifle", and I thought it was pretty damned cool. I don't see that I need to resent a kid in the current era thinking the same. Neither should you. It's no skin off your ass.

You know what the anti gun agenda is, and you know that "assault weapons" and high cap mags are just the beginning. The low hanging fruit. So wanting th,m to disappear is analogous to me wishing for the end of wave runners, snowboards and dreadlocks just because I don't see a use for them in my life, and others seem to have an unnatural attraction for them

If you really zipped up your flame suit, then none of this should bother you because you anticipated the conversation.

This reminds me a bit of the Republican Party trying to unite themselves this fall. Very tough task. Lots of bickering. But we just all aren't going to see things identically. That's not a realistic goal but I was hoping for more reasoned discussion. It's the easiest thing in the world to not see where someone is coming from. Much harder to make the attempt. And, I have not appreciated the innuendo that if I don't agree identically with someone that means I am a liberal. As it turns out the person I voted for this fall was not the winner.

There are a lot of gun enthusiasts, (collectors more than any other group) out there who are not thrilled with modern "assault" firearms. I've received many pm's today and at least of this writing they have been 100% positive. One individual wrote that it is, "not the black rifle" they have issue with but the, "black rifle culture." I don't think owning an AR (or several) automatically makes someone a member of this culture. Mike - I'll bet if we met and got to know each other, I wouldn't view you as part of the "black rifle culture" and likely the minority of members who own AR's on this campfire really fit into what is described as that culture. However, I think most (ok, some) here have an idea of what is being referred to. My largest concern is the number of young people funneling into that culture.

A probable obama voting liberal gun owner.

I live in CT, its all on him and him alone. but to say that would be judgmental and also say there is Right and there is wrong. Well there is Right and there is wrong. there is no gray. Its either or. This germ first killed his mother than a number of others before pulling the pin on himself. Its him and nobody else. I for the life of me don't understand why this should even bother anybody, since we murder children in the country for connivance every day, they sugar coat it and call it something else like unviable tissue mass or some other rot. Its still murder and its killing, but you see there is no right or wrong anymore and to say that there is, is judgmental so we get all this fake outrage. Murder was done and we have laws about that. That other thing is legal because the court said so. And since I have a moral compass, I don't have to like that other thing, but I may not take that dislike of that other thing and convince myself it's ok to murder those that do, that would be wrong. Its to bad that of the adults that also died, didn't at least get the chance to shoot back, I find that to be the most appauling part of this whole mess.

I think whatever you choose to shoot should be banned as well as whatever your choice of vehicle is. They kill people!

You're missing the point. There is no disagree or agree on the gun issue. You are either with us or against us. I'm willing to accept others opinions and have no problem living along side with folks who think differently than me. One of my brothers is pretty liberal and I love him to death. He is not with the libs on the gun control issue though. When it comes to the 2nd, you're either my friend or my enemy. If you have half a brain, you would know that getting Ar's out of the public hands would not have stopped this attack. When are you people going to see that there are evil people in this world and they are willing to do what it takes to cause death and destuction. Its the person, not the tool.

Better to have them out shooting and starting in "that culture" than never leaving the sanctity of their computer screens, IMHO.

I don't care if it's "Zombie" crap, mutant monkeys, or rabid possums....I want to see "our" base extended. I remember lusting over a USP 9mm my junior year of high school. I'm sure my dad/grandfather would have considered it "drooling". I worked my azz off that summer so my dad would pick it up. I won't take that same feeling away from a "kid" and his AR.

George

Hatari - you called me out and you are right - I didn't quite get that last zipper on the flame suit closed. But seriously, I read your post and we agree on a whole lot more than we disagree on. Yes, absolutely, assault weapons are the low hanging fruit. And there is no way the democratic/liberal agenda wants to stop with them. I recall several years ago, there was a liberal politician who was against assault weapons but was willing to hear out the explanation of how these weapons may be a different color and have more plastic than other standard hunting type guns but they really weren't all that different. And he got it - he could see how many typical hunting rifles were more deadly or could shoot further etc. than the typical assault weapon. It sunk in fully and he had a change of thought. His response was, "I see now - they ALL need to go." And of course, the time will come where a mass murderer will use some conventional weapon and that be used as an impetus to broaden the scope of what is on the ban list.

I would like to see people who think like you to just disappear and no longer exist.

People like you are the worst kind. You want to take my gun because of this horrible crime. You pretend to care for those children. Your abviously a lib so you vote that way. You dont have a problem with the people you vote for allowing abortions to take place on a daily basis. Thats murder and turns my stomach You are a living and breathing hypocrite.

You're right. So what was the point of the original post other than outing yourself as a closet lib?

Ooh touchy, you weren't the mental defect I was typing about and there isn't anything in my post to prompt your response. But if it bothers you, good.

Please note, the reason I never said I was in favor of a ban is because I'm not. I am not in favor of, "getting" them out of the public hands. Like you, I am proactively out there arguing against a ban. I have actively argued against a ban for years and will continue to do so. I do know many collectors and hunters who really wouldn't mind seeing a ban go through. At that point we have the low hanging fruit discussion.

Cain killed Able with a Rock , so i guess we would be better off if the first Assault Weapon disappeared and there were no more rocks on the Earth. Stupid Liberals. My AR's are for hunting and nothing else

[/quote]You're right. So what was the point of the original post other than outing yourself as a closet lib? [/quote]

Seems to me, the time to be a closet lib was this past November in a voting booth where there was no one in there but me and a ballot. I know what I did in that situation and my effort that day was not successful.

Our group of gun owners is a broad one and includes a diverse group. The smaller you define, "us" the less our chances. For me, the challenge is setting aside my feelings about the black rifle culture for our common good.

Boltman , you've been flip flopping throughout this thread , from your 1st post even.
The very title vilifies a class of firearms.

Some of your comments vilify the new generation of firearms enthusiasts.

If gunowner wants to wear a ring in their nose , grow dredlocks out their azz & shoot an AR/AK (or any other firearm) , that is fine with me as long as they are not bent on mischief. It's not for me to exclude any responsible person from the "firearms fraternity"


Mike

This is what is called a "Clue".



This LEO will continue to stongly support my neighbors, as well as my nations right to own whatever kind of firearm they damn well please. Don't do stupid or violent things with them and there will never be a problem.

For all I know it might be one of those privately owned black rifles ( that causes liberals to sanctimoniously wring their hands, have fits of the vapors and assume the moral high road, by requiring other men to risk their lives for them) owned and used by a farmer that someday bails me out of a tight spot.

Cheers!

I am 54 years old & I never owned an AR until Jim Zumbo stirred up that big schitstorm. At that time I figured I could do 2 things by buying an AR , I could see for myself what all the bruhaha was about & I could show a certain "solidarity" with AR owners. I still have that AR (with modifications) today.

I would encourage you boltman to go out & buy yourself an AR if you don't own one , anything else is contempt prior to investigation.


Mike

Amen

I actually do get the point you are making, and understand what you are trying to say. I'm not so much calling you out individually but rather preemptively blunting any argument about "reasonable" gun control or any thought that only hunting arms are worthy.

I refuse to entertain any of that in the slightest. There will be an onslaught against our gun rights in the coming months, and we are very likely to lose some gun rights. That is what happens after these incidents. Feel good knee jerk legislation that solves nothing but makes people feel good as if the problem of wackos in society is solved.

Since you are against firearms that other people legally own, here's a suggestion for you and your ilk. You, and all of Your anti-gun buddies should immediately put all of YOUR firearms up for sale so as not to offend any of the rest of your anti-gun friends. Hypocrite.

Low hanging fruit would aptly describe this Post and it's intentions

Boys, now is not the time to bicker. As gun owners we need to stand together, now more than ever. This fight should not catch us by surprise. We have all known that the potential for a Waterloo could come at any time. We have too much to loose to not fight our best fight. I believe that most Americans feel like we do, that last weeks tragedy was a people/mental health issue, and not a gun issue. If I am right, your average Joe would not be in favor of irrational and unwarranted gun legislation. Lets get our crap together and fiercly defend the 2nd Amendment, and our current freedoms.

+1

+1

Yep:

OP is concerned about his rights but is more than willing to throw some of the people on his side under the bus to protect his definition of the second ammendment. That is lousy politics, but yet he points out how the republican party lost the election cause they couldn't build a coalition. Anybody else picking up on the irony?

So you don't like the black gun club and culture. Maybe they don't like you either. But if they are not bent on lawlessness, believe it or not they are some of the the best friends you have.

Who does he think is going to be left on his side to protect his percieved rights?

I've said from the beginning that I am not in support of a ban, or any action against the guns under discussion. I've been opposed to bans all along and haven't changed my position.

Said before,.....carried one while wearing a green uniform.

....NEVER cared to see one again.

Than Rob Krentz was killed.

..........I procured one immediately thereafter.

I don't see that as "knee jerk",.....more along the line of taking off rose colored glasses, and performing one's DUTY.

GTC

The functionality of the firearm isn't going to matter beans. If it "looks it" they will want it banned. Semi-auto looks just like a full auto, so it's the same. It's all about images. Unfortunately, a lot of the "images" are portrayed through games, movies, and the wonderful news media. Now the image of dead children will sway the masses to agreeing with everything the administration wants.

I posted this on another forum that differs somewhat with the political give and take that we enjoy here at the Fire. It addresses several of the different threads that are on our forum now about this issue.


While there are numerous forums that discuss at length the political/societal news of the day The 8 has for
the most part not been among them. This recent incident of slaughter of kindergarten children is so over the top that I suppose it was inevitable that it would appear here to be hashed out. A stab in the heart is how I felt when I learned about it.Any sane human being would have immediate empathy and sympathy for the victims and families of this senseless crime. We are parents and grandparents and at one time we were those innocents, that had just pledged to our flag and were busy coloring or singing the ABC song, anxiously awaiting recess.
Everyone wants an answer to the question.... Why?. Not so easy, because rarely can a sane person see inside nor understand the mind of a lunatic.Even the experts fall well short of that mark or there wouldn`t be as many lunatics loose among us. The predictable analysis of the talking heads et all becomes just chatter that consumes broadcast time. You`ve heard it before when other incidents occurred. Why is this time so different? They were just little ones.They were the weak and defenseless.They could have been our own.

Our Constitution including the second amendment, was written to protect who? We the people of course so what happened in this case? With the myriad of laws that are on the books in each of the states,federally and the local level would it not seem likely that one of them would have protected these children? The obvious is that the most serious, "murder" was not prevented though this law has been with us since Moses descended from the mountain. How can this be? There was a law but it did not work.What to do? Can we pass a prohibition more serious than that which prohibits murder? So now the logic turns to not the crime but the manner in which it is committed. The prohibition of murder becomes one of the instrument not the act. Would this change in approach give us the protection we desire? Does it sound logical? I think not but it does have an instant and popular appeal. On it`s face it is illogical to accept that the passing of a "law" will prevent the breaking of another. I recall a commentary by the late Paul Harvey that might illustrate this better than I can explain it. It began; Hotchkiss,Colorado!....Hotchkiss,Colorado! . It seems that the town council of Hotchkiss had a dilemma on their hands. The city budget could only support two policeman for the small town.The chief worked the day shift and a deputy worked the evening shift until midnight.What to do? The town council passed a law that made it against the law to break the law in Hotchkiss after midnight. Logical ? No,but it satisfied the fears of the public to a degree." Something " was done and more important "It didn`t cost any money". That is why the passing of anti-gun laws can gain popular support and the public can go back to everyday living assured that "something" was done and it didn`t cost any money. This of course is not withstanding the political agenda of the current and some former occupants of power in Washington.
The second amendment has nothing to do with sportsmen,hunting,gun collecting and recreational shooting. It is for the protection of the people against a tyrannical government . Review of the thoughts and reasons given by our founders;Jefferson,Adams,Hamilton and others for including this amendment might be in order for those that question the prior statement.
The tactic of dividing the opposition has been around since the dawn of history. Gun owners have varying interest in firearms for many different reasons .Collectors. hunters,target shooters and those that only own a gun for self-protection and to protect their family don`t always agree about the firearms that are available in the market place. We must be careful about eschewing the selection of a firearm by others that is foreign to our interests lest we play into that division tactic.We are all in the same boat and must remember that while a torpedo could sink it immediately a much smarter tactic would be to have the occupants begin to drill small holes in the hull.Same result and the boat would sink without all the outrage. Lots of sharks in the water right now and the 2nd amendment boat can`t stand any assistance from the folks riding inside.
Joe

I agree with Boltman. The culture around the black guns is getting ridiculous. It's all based on video game fantasy BS about being ready for situations that are not going to happen. Coincidentally some of the worst gun handling I see at the range is young idiots with high capacity handguns.

I don't see the connection to Krentz. He never drew his sidearm. Not clear what magazine capacity had to do with that.

We also need to address mental health: read
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

I also agree with Boltman. He writes well. Going to buy an AR boltman?

Join the crowd?

So you play the suck up card and denigrate the "crowd" all in the same post.

What of AR owners that aren't all zombie'd out and propogating this crowd you seem to be down on?

And so what if there is a cult following?

Jimminy Crickets, its a gun. Again, the user is responsible for its function, same as cars, tools and votes.

I can't stand the f'n things myself.Tin. I can't quite handle religous nut jobs either.
If it ain't in the Madis Book, I don't like it.

So, if we were all like Lauren....?

And where did "religious nut jobs" fit into this conversation?

Think of a firearms ban in terms of a smoking ban. It is done incrementally like the proverbial frog in a gradual boil in pot of of water. It is human nature to react spontaneously and go overboard on the remedy. This will pass, there is just too much money in guns in America and there are far to many of them to take away. If the gubermint thinks it will be a volutary roll-over and an easy gun-grab, they better rethink it all and have plenty of plasma in the fridge.

Mudhen:

Very interesting post. Thank you,

I guess I'm "not clear" as to what you are not clear about.

GTC

I can see an assault ban happening then changing the definition until all black guns are banned and by the way bluing is considered black. Then the number of rounds that can be carried lowered to a number below 1. That how they work.

Remember Kennedy proposed Saturday Night Special ban. When you read the fine print you would find no US manufacture made any handgun that did not qualify.

I do not trust anti gun congress leaches at all.

All this talk about "assault rifles" "automatic weapons" is pure crap. None of those was used in New Town or any other shooting that I can think of in this country
The rifle in question was neither of those things and was never used anyway.
The people spewing this crap know better but use those words on purpose

it was interesting today, given that i have been trying to stay away from the boob tube, to hear some moron on fox news talking about the wonderful job the police did in this incident. Now I am not antipolice in any way, but give me a break. They did NOTHING but secure a perimeter after it had already happened.

greg, interesting what effect Krentz and a B.P. agent have on ones thinking about running around the arizona desert, isn't it?

the reason the founding fathers put the whole gun clause in the constitution is because they recognised you have a threat from your own government and gave us a right to bear arms so we have the balls to stand up to a P.O.S.dictator that brainwashed the sheep into giving in...the constitution has already been bypassed in the previous 4 years...whats to stop it now ? wake up ! these things you see happening in the middle east wont happen here because we are america ??? Fools who voted democrat especially after seeing the first four years... now my name is on a list.....

We'll worth noting and remembering, but it will be lost in the chaos.

There has never been a time when I felt that our freedoms were in greater jeopardy, both from the left and right, as the result of a single tragic but essentially random event.

It underscores both the fragility of life and liberty.

Paul

Yep!

If Obama sends his army out to confiscate all our guns or to enslave us, how are we to fight back against their arms without so much as an AR-15? Before you post, please remember the 2nd Amendment is there to protect us from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and to protect ourselves from the potential tyranny of our own government.

The AR must be kept legal to abide by the spirit of the 2nd Amendment and to give us a fighting chance.

Thats because you shoot ducks with shotguns not rifles dip schit! If your gonna use a qoute use one that means something.3



Ohhh you lie.......you'd kneel down right beside Monica and Wrestle her for the next turn.

�Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.�

Thomas Jefferson: Quoting Cesare Beccaria

+1 boltman. I feel it will be the black rifle that will alter our 2nd. Amendment rights, and I also do not want to see them taken, But there is a place for them and a place not for them.

The place for the 'black rifle'is in the hands of an armed citizenry.....

If you think not, you will ultimately die at the hands of those with black rifles...

W.T.F. ingwe- Making threats with the BLACK RIFLE now.
As to be read either way. "Thank you" Just what the gun lobbyist want to see at this time.

I think I'll paint my next black rifle tan.

I smell a troll

No not tan ( RED, WHITE, AND BLUE )....

I know the answer, you're a [bleep] traitorous [bleep]. When the EBT cards flash zero, hopefully some hooded up bro will blow your worthless head off with his AK. Be sure and tell him about your pre-64 model 70, right before he kills your azz

Another fool.

I hope you die a painful death on your knees.

I'd like to see one disappear right up your turd launcher. Schittheal.

boltman is right.

Phckin' idiot. He's talking about a tyranical govt coming to kill with their black rifles because we will no long have parity of force.

Have any of you ever been in an area when a riot breaks out???

Remember Nazi Germany??? how many children died at their hands??? It wasn't so long ago that we had the serbs & bosnians bangin each other...What about the fast turn of events in the middle east??? Greece??? If you guys think it can't happen here, you're delusional...what's gonna happen if if our economy crashes??? those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it...

how come canadians don't do this sh..??

Like sheep to slaughter....Like followers to koolaid they all end up the same.....DEAD!

Chuckie Schummer and his ilk will have plenty of guards with black rifles protecting his a$$ and we will have nothing more than spit balls.

You mean the country that allowed their politicians to run a gun registration program on them for 20 years?

Don't know but my guess is it has something to do with our roots as citizens and their roots as subjects.

Any place you need to have a license to have a firearm pretty much means the government still views you as a subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada

Not hating on Canadians, I've spent a lot of time up there but your country is not America north. It's very different from the US.(and I'm sure you'll agree!)

No kiddin'..

So, what would be next? Any handgun with double-stack magazines?? Some of those can carry more than 15 rounds.. And are mucho handier to carry/conceal than an AR..

Is that next on your list??



Morons abound..