with his statements about the Churches focus.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/20/w...chs-focus-on-gays-and-abortion.html?_r=0

The smoke of Satan has entered the sanctuary with this man, I fear.

He didn't say anything in opposition to the Church's teachings.

I think what he's trying to do is get people to stop condemning people and instead focus on spreading the Word.

In recent years, I do feel the Church had started to allow, by silence, it's members to judge and condemn people. It's the actions you are allowed to condemn. Not the people.

I do think he could do a better job of explaining it though. I bet he has a fine line to walk. While the Catholic Church has shrunk in terms of numbers, it has grown increasingly right wing. And not the same right wing we think of in politics.

This report just made me shake my head. I couldn't understand it.

Then I saw the name of the Cathedral spokesman and it all fell into place.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/26/national-cathedral-rings-church-bells-cheer-suprem/

I'm not so sure. With last weeks statement on obeying your conscience and now this, I think we have opened a Pandora's Box of multiple interpretations.

Smoke of Satan...LOL

Christ taught to hate the sin not the sinner. He's not condoning homosexuality or abortion, far from it.

He's simply letting people know that salvation is available to all who seek it. Just like Christ did.

Christ was criticized for associating with tax collectors and other people of low moral standing.

His answer was that healthy people do not need a physician, it is the sick who need one.

If I had to guess, I believe this Pope is less judgmental than many of his predecessors. He believes in Church doctrine, but maintains that the church's primary focus should be spreading the gospel & helping the poor.

He is simply using Jesus' example as a guide and adjusting the church's priorities accordingly.

He's just paving the way for "you know who".....

From the article:

Consider Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. Her sin was the same as a homosexual's yet Jesus forgave her. Likewise, he will forgive the homosexual. However, Jesus also said 'Go, and sin no more'. His forgiveness came with repentance. The homosexuals are demanding that Jesus allow them to continue in their sin, unlike the adulteress. The Bible makes it very clear that their acts are sin but they won't acknowledge that they're sinning. They call it normal.
Yes, Jesus loves them and he will gladly forgive them but they MUST acknowledge that they're sinning and repent.

Higbean the Prophet

When the Pope says we have to be an inclusive Church and one in which a new balance is struck, those are key phrases to me.

Pope Barack?

But then told her to "sin no more." This pope is not imitating Christ's message to sinners to sin no more.

Exactly right. It's just Catholics have been becoming increasingly judgmental (as if we weren't before right?) and I think the Pope is just trying to remind people that's not for us.

Key as in how? Is the Pope speaking in a code that you have managed to break?

Listen to his words..

Then tell me how they translate into accepting homosexuality and abortion. ???

These statements are being sensationalized by the press and it appears many are falling for it.

The man simply said it is not his job to judge people's sin, Jesus will take care of that.

He also said he believes the church has lost focus on its God given mission, which is to spread the Gospel and help the less fortunate.

He in no way condoned homosexuality or abortion.

Where are you getting that from? He's the Pope, not a Hardcore, combative Southern Baptist Preacher with a TV show.

In an age when society has largely embraced sin as normal and good, a good Pope needs most especially to clearly promulgate and emphasize the message that what society is currently saying is good is in reality evil and sinful. He cannot be a man of the times. He must be a man of Christ. It is the antichrist that will be a man of the times, condemning no evil act.

That's what he's doing, just not addressing what you consider evil and sinful.

In this particular instance, he's simply saying salvation is available to all who seek it and it's neither his or any man's job to judge sinners.

He is speaking out against an evil. Being judgmental is also sin Hawk.

Identifying what is sinful is not being judgmental. It's actually a loving act. You should know better than this.

So Hawk,

He should compile a list of sins and stand there for days saying-
"Do Not do this...."
"Do not do this...."
"Do Not do this...."

We all sin Hawk, even you.

Jesus' ministry was not conducted that way.

If you read and understood the bible you would know better..

Show me one instance in which this man has condoned sin. You can't because he hasn't.

He's simply said that it's not his job to judge sin, it's Christ's. This is in the bible.

He also said that salvation is open to all who seek it.

You and a few others don't like that, neither did the Pharisees.

The failure of a pope to identify sin as sin in the context of an age that is nearly universally calling sin normal and good is implicitly to condone it. That's the message that people receive from it, a sense of being comforted in their sin. If you don't believe me, ask yourself if the left is happy with him or angry with him. If the left is happy, you know he's not promulgating the message of Christ. More likely that of antichrist.

YTTWROOMM. (You took the words .....)

But at the same time, God did destroy Sodom and Gommorah.

Hawk, sin is universally identifiable. Has the Pope been asked to identify sin and refused?

Again, how has the Pope failed to identify sin? At first you said he condoned it, when I challenged you to prove that statement you then back peddled and claimed that he is refusing to identify sin.

Please name any preceeding Pope that read through a book of sins during his reign.

You're argument is weak. You cannot point out where this man has condoned sin, so you can only accuse him of doing so by what he has not said.

Laffin. You pride yourself on being a lawyer, how would that stand up in court counselor?

Don't worry Hawk, you're in good company, the Pharisees hated Jesus for trying to save sinners instead of condemning them and preaching that salvation is available to all who seek it.

People like you have been around for a long time.

Trying to condemn a man for what he has not said in response to a question that has not been asked is an act of unrestrained stupidity.

He didn't say 'or else' ... he gave advice with hope, as we would our own children involved in destructive attitudes and actions.

Jesus is inclusive and not exclusive... and can't be boxed in by cherry picking verse.

Kent

The biggest thing that the current pope has done wrong has been to say that atheists will go to heaven if they are "good". Even the most basic knowledge of the scriptures tells you this is wrong.

Mark 16:15-16 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized will be saved but he who does not believe will be damned".

That is the "great commission" of the Lord Jesus Christ to his disciples before he ascended to heaven. And this fraud has the nerve to say that someone who rejects the gospel which is what an atheist does by definition is going to be saved if he is "good"? You got to be kidding me!

Most of Paul's writings tell us it is not our "goodness" which brings about salvation but rather faith in the Lord Jesus Christ which an atheist by definition does not have. There is nothing that any of us can do that is good enough to earn fellowship with God other than accept Jesus Christ as Savior.

Folks, your pope is deceived, and is attempting to deceive you. He has erred in other ways but this one is the Grandaddy. I am trying to say this in love and humility, not to stir up argument, but I suggest you get as far away from his influence as you possibly can!

Smoke of Satan! Good lord man! Where do you come up with this stuff?

I like the guy. He definitely has more charisma than ol' Pope Ratzy. That fella just stood there and drooled.

excellent response rock chuck.

Massaging or tailoring the core concepts of religion or faith to attract followers from the popular masses is nearly as old as Christianity itself.

Surely you don't truly think Christmas trees near winter solstice nor celebration of the Resurrection near spring equinox are coincidence, do you?

Do you even know where the tradition of Christmas trees came from?

You will draw more sinners to the confessional (and the offering plate) with honey then vinager.

IMO he appears to be an astute man who will at least slow the decline, if not grow the Church.

after all, business is business.

"In this particular instance, he's simply saying salvation is available to all who seek it and it's neither his or any man's job to judge sinners.

He is speaking out against an evil. Being judgmental is also sin Hawk.

Where are you getting that from? He's the Pope, not a Hardcore, combative Southern Baptist Preacher with a TV show."

Above quotes made by JohnMoses.

Oops! Old mr.judgemental raises his ugly head at the worst times dosen't he?

What's wrong Mr. Seven Heaven?

You a hardcore Baptist that doesn't like his faith being constantly besmirched with lies and innuendo?

Not a good feeling is it?

Glad you got the point.

JM,

I just found it strange that you would make such a judgmental statement after pointing out that being so is a sin.

Don't wish to argue denominations or what your pope said, as I long for us to all be considered simply as Christians.


Romans 12:18

Jesus made it pretty clear that all who call his name, "Christians", and claim to have performed great deeds in his name would not be going to heaven.

It appears that not all "Christians"... are.

Judging another's 'salvation' is God's priority and not man's... evaluating another person or group's character/actions/idiocies/threats... is logical, until judgement of salvation is applied.

I can say the Pope or a TV bible thumper, or internet bible thumper... is wrong, self serving, socially destructive, even a dumb chit... But you will never hear me claim to know another's salvation in God.

Kent

The world would be SO much a better place without 'Christians'


No wonder we are in the shape we are with the total lack of reading comprehension on this thread, nor the desire to research what has been said further.

Episcopal. Go figure.

Here's the more important quote from the Pope, since it has far greater consequences in how they will conduct ministry:

Francis told the interviewer, a fellow Jesuit: �It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church�s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.

�We have to find a new balance,� the pope continued, �otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.�


It would appear that "doctrine" is not what it was made out to be in the Catholic church any longer.

How about we all worship you as our God?

Abortion?

Really?

Abortion?


Snake

the Republican party would be smart to adopt the same policy and let people deal with God on such matters. Maybe then we would be rid of the leftist democrats that are sure to run this country into the ground if left to their ways.

Well said! The pope needs to clearly point this out and he hasn't.

Calling sin sin is NOT being judgmental at all!

Dunno . . be interesting to see where this goes.

The Christian gospel is not [primarily] about helping the poor, inclusiveness, or any other such stuff . . the Christian gospel is about sin and the forgiveness of sin. Nor does it matter one whit what Roman Catholic dogma says officially . . perception is reality. If the laity perceives the Roman denomination going soft on "sin," they will increasingly defect to Orthodoxy and conservative Protestantism.

Time will tell . .

I expect that a lot of Northeastern and West Coast Catholics will be cool with welcoming the UN-repentent queers and baby killers as new members.

But they'll draw the line at Baptists.

I would say he's certainly not a man of the times. These are times of polarization arising out of hatred. Christ was a man of Love and acceptance: not in accepting of sin, but of the person. His anger was directed at pharisee's who placed themselves far above the downtrodden and sinner, condemming them.

I was not in agreement with the Pope over his statements regarding salvation, but am now believing that I may not fully understand his perspective. He may well be a great man indeed, if he survives.

Well which is the least costly?
Kinda like paying taxes, ya know!
Where might a 1%er be found?

We Baptists are not really concerned with what our RC friends are doing, re doctrine.

Smoke coming out of Hawkeye's ass. Bristoe finds a Jew in the cathedral.

JFC.

Hah! What a joke! Popes before Vatican II constantly promulgated bulls condemning the degradation into sin of the society of their times, specifically stating the sins they were referring to, and stating in no uncertain terms the fate of sinners who die unrepentant and unregenerate. This was in imitation of Jesus during his ministry, the very thing that led to his crucifixion. That's what popes are for. The fact that they no longer do this is pretty clear evidence something is very wrong.

"You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the judgment of hell?" Words of Jesus regarding the Pharisees. Matt. XXIII, 33. Was Jesus being unkind, or was he being love itself when he said that? Was he giving bad example of a judgmental attitude, or good example for the future shepherds of his flock?

In my parish, and every parish I've ever been in, I've never heard anything hateful towards homosexuality, abortion, non-martial sex, etc. That doesn't mean that these behaviors aren't acknowledged to be sinful, just that it's exceedingly rare for them to come up as topics in mass. It seems to me that the obsession is all on the side of the anti-Catholic haters, who choose only to pay attention to that which validates their hatred.

Even the people who are pleased by what they hear from Francis seem to be even more pleased by their hope that traditional Catholics might now somehow suffer.

Making clear that sin is sin is not hate. It's love. When society at large is constantly sending out the message that sin is not sin, it's the job of the pope to rail against said message from the rooftops as loudly and forcefully as he's able.

I'm a born-again Southern Baptist as well and I agree. The pope is a man and is fallible just like all other men.

Unfortunately, I believe most Catholics are more caught up in the RC and the "pope" than they are at discerning the true word of God. Please don't take offense as I believe there are many good and godly catholics; however, like any other church (including Baptist) not all members are truly born-again.

For the record, I consider everyone (Catholics, Baptist, Methodist, etc.) who is TRULY born-again to be my brother in Christ.

As I read down this first page I notice folks defending the Pope the way Democrats defend the president. Fact make no nevermind to them.

No dog in this, but the interview was over 12,000 words and the leftist press picked what it wanted.

Most folks believe that Francis is a fine, gifted man who has a thankless, almost impossible message to deliver here on earth.

Personally, I believe it is shortsighted to make judgements based on the media and it's slanted view.

Yes, I have read the interview and Francis came across as a holy and reasonable man. Of course, many do not want to hear his message ... and that's OK ... but in that case, only the ignorant would comment.

I don't need the pope, I don't need a cardinal, I don't need a priest to have a personal relationship with God. Matter of fact that would prevent me from having a personal relationship with my God. God does not command us to have a brokered relationship with Him. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" says a lot. Confessing sins to another human being is futile. None of the officers of the Catholic church have any more sway with God than do I or any other believer and it is detrimental to a personal relationship with God to believe they do. The officers of the Catholic church cannot forgive sin.

Romans 10
8But what does it say? �The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,� that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, �Jesus is Lord,� and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, �Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.�e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile�the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, �Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.�

I do not say these things in a hateful manner. Spirituality is truly an individual experience. However to place such faith as is placed on the pope's ability to define what is acceptable or unacceptable in the worship of our God or in the obedience of Jesus' teachings is misplaced.

Pelosi seems to.

It's easy to see how a fella could come to feel that way. Some 'Christians' are the biggest detriment to Christianity that there is. The Savior hung out with the worst of the worse, the lowest of the low. And He didn't abandon them. We are told to accept one another just as He accepted us. And we are told that everyone would know who His followers are by the love that they have for others.

the [bleep] and Sunni's are about to fight a civil war within Islam. the Christians had their civil war between protestants and catholics about 500 years ago.

Christianity is a full 500 years ahead of islam, or so it appears.