Where is our POTUS...at a fund raiser

Don't be so hard on Obama. Remember he is semi-retired.

I am amazed at the LACK of outcry from others here, locals, and national media. Looks as if the US citizens who were MURDERED by the Russian backed group died in vain. HANG you head in SHAME.

They have a history of shooting down airliners. This one makes number 3.

Korean Air Lines Flight 902 on April 20, 1978

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 on September 1, 1983...Congressman Larry McDonald was killed in that one.

Obama will talk about it while he is on the golf course. We are doomed.

I doubt the Russians had any involvement. Nothing to gain from it.

Agreed..No doubt it's their hardware but my gut tells me from all accounts the airliner was targeted by mistake as the rebels have already dispatched several Ukrainian fast movers in the same airspace.Putin opened pandora's box and now can't close it.

Wouldn't surprise me if a couple of troopers out of uniform were responsible...look for a couple of dead separatists to turn up with confessions pinned to their chests, conveniently.

I'm still believing that the 'Russian separatists' are nothing more than Russian troops in other clothes. They are Russian military led, trained and tasked.
Russia used these exact methods in the business with Georgia, and the Crimea.
That means, that Russians, not Ukrainians shot the plane down. Mistake? maybe/maybe not, but it was Russians doing the shooting, with Russian equipment.

Obama gets the news............

A. The Separatists have the hardware and are Russian supplied and trained.
B. Over the course of the last few weeks, said group has shot down an AN-26, SU-25 and a helo. The separatists have been boasting about this.
C. They have warned not to fly over their airspace
D. IMMEDIATELY after the shootdown, one of their leaders (former Russian Colonel) boasted about it on Twitter and FB then promptly took it down

The are FACTS, not assumptions.

I think even the most simple minded here can deduce the following

Russian trained, Russian equipped and Russian adviced..I don't think the Russians themselves had anything to do with punching the "FIRE" button. This looks like a case of a HUGE [bleep] by the separatists mistaking the airliner for an Ukrainian transport.

The blood is equally on the hands of Putin and the separatists. Pretty simple.

Spot on.

The rumor is that the separatists recently captured the missile launcher from the Ukrainians but from all the info I've heard it's not a simple system to operate. Whether it's the captured missile system or not somebody knew how to use it and that can only be a Russian military "advisor".

The story that they intended to shoot down a military transport but oopsie they got a passenger jet instead is credible to me. It was unintended major screw up.

Putin has already begun to cover his azz by calling for a cease fire. I have no doubt that he strongly disapproves of a passenger jet being shot down. Whoever did it is probably on his way to a Siberian gulag and will never be heard from again.

Good analysis Jorge and spot on.

Sometimes having a proxy doing your dirty work can have drawbacks. The Russians certainly have nothing to gain with this screw up, but they are certainly responsible to some (maybe large) degree.

So what do the Russians gain from having a proxy shoot down an airliner over Ukrainian airspace? How has this assisted the Russians?

Were you born retarded or did it just happen?

He is a self made man...you can tell by the workmanship.

I said the Russians DO NOT have anything to gain with this event.

I was referring to the person who suggested that it was done clandestinely at the behest of the Russians, i.e., Russians by proxy. If that wasn't you, then I wasn't addressing you.

PS Looking back, it was actually you, so what's your complaint? You actually did suggest it was a Russian proxy deal. So I ask again, what do the Russians gain from it? You say nothing, but then also in the same breath suggest it was the Russians by proxy. That's contradictory.

PPS "The truth is the first casualty of war." - Aeschylus

My gut feeling is the same a Jorge's..I doubt Putin ever gave a direct order and is probably ready to string somebody up over this..

That said, we need to let the investigation take place and follow the hard evidence. There are crazies on both sides over there, and there are definately those with a lot to gain if they managed to frame the Russians..

The separitists are essentially serving as a proxy fighting for the Russians in the Ukraine. What's hard to figure out about that? I never suggested the Russians had someone else shoot an airliner down for them.

Crazies...Pete, they are all a pack of lunatics and every single one is armed to the teeth and looking for targets, and any pilot that takes a plane within range of the place is committing suicide.

The blame for this lays squarely at the feet of the dills that put the plane and passengers in that predicament.


It is a war zone.

Fair enough. But there are many here (and in other threads at the Fire of late) suggesting blame on the part of the Russians.

There has been a movement afoot for a few years now to foment a return to a Cold War status between the United States and Russia (serving to benefit the Military Industrial Complex Ike somberly warned us about so many years ago). It's safe to assume, in my judgment, that most of the misinformation directed at us regarding this event is, and will continue to be, designed with this end in mind.

It is a warzone, but countless airliners have been flying that same route every day for years. I have flown it many times headed to the Middle East. The recent shootdowns probably should have raised questions. Hindsight is often 20/20.

Enter the kookista theories...

Ummm...probably.

30 days ago the FFA said to stop flying over that war zone. Better to go around.

I'm having a hard time getting too worked up over this. It is a horrible thing, but on the other hand, this wasn't a situation where a Russian fighter jet shot down a 747 with airline markings after making clear visual contact. I simply see no upside to the Russians shooting down a jetliner and there is no reason they would do it intentionally.

So, it is a war zone. Right or wrong, good or bad, there is a war going on there right now and that schit happens in a war zone. I remember well when we zapped an Iranian passenger jet in the Persian Gulf not all that long after an Iraqi Mirage sent an Exocet through the side of the USS Stark during the Iraq/Iran war.

Does that include Ike's?

umm no... Rush tuned me onto this. THE REAL MEANING OF IKE's REMARKS

You need to find another excuse...

Article's author: David Greenberg.

MSNBC's insider is reporting something completely different...

(only funny because it's MSNBC)

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RWb8BGiIyoA[/video]

I'm in total agreement with you two worshippers of the Queen. it is and was a warzone, and has been for a spell.

to send commercial flights over the area was a dereliction of duty by someone, even if someone else actually shot the plane down. the message is that someone in the process of acceptable risk-taking was asleep at the wheel.

stage left, enter the early adoption of "new" technology that could have saved us all, that is, a laser on the commercial jet-liner. if only......

Baba Booey.

And??? or did you miss the part where I mentioned I got this source from Rush. Ohhhh! I get it he's a Jooooo!

I had assumed he was Episcopalian.

Yep...the EU & the U.S.
If you think the U.S. doesn't have CIA assets instigating the separatists, you are mistaken.

Yup. Somebody just screwed up big time. I definitely don't see this as a terrorist attack or any other intentional act.

The Russians were definitely involved. They have their special forces running the "rebels" and crewing any anti-aircraft missiles. In fact, I bet that it was the Russian air defense that shot this plane down.

Exactly. Truth is always the first casualty of war.

Well here's a new twist on things...

WTF? Over.

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/18/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-of-plane-crash/20933592/

Well, now, this is a classic Mossad false-flag operation if ever I've seen one.

With Zombies.

Jorge

It makes more sense for me that the Russians were using their air defense systems to shoot down Ukrainian plans and that they screwed up. I don't thing that the "rebels" could use a "captured" anti-air missile to shoot a plane down. It requires an integrated radar and missile system to function. The Russians have that all set up on the edge of Ukraine and I expect that they used it and they screwed up.

The Russians have been pretending that they have had nothing to do with the problems in Ukraine and we have been letting them get away with it. Now is the time to stop this absurdity. We should ban all airline flights into, out of, across Russia and Russian flagged airplanes world wide. That should hurt them quite a bit.

Conrad

Saying that Russia shot down the airplane. Is like saying the USA is shooting down our own Military choppers in The Middle East.

Remember all the missiles and armament that we provide the so called rebels.

Same difference, it just depends on who was shot down.

Bizarre. But fits in perfectly with the proverb that the first casualty of war is the truth.

jorge1, how does this compare to when the USN shot down a civilian (Iranian) airliner.

"July 3, 1988: U.S. warship Vincennes shoots down an Iranian passenger plane over the Persian Gulf, mistaking it for a threatening warplane, during the war between Iraq and Iran. All 290 people aboard are killed. United States pays more than $ 130 million in a 1996 settlement that includes compensation for families of the victims."


I can remember when this happened.

Conrad, those missile batteries are designed to be stand alone, as well as working within an IADS. I just don't think the Russians did it, but rather as I opined initially. I think the rebels thought it was a transport and whacked it.

Huge difference. That airliner had "constant bearing, decreasing range AND altitude (it was making an approach into the UAE or somewhere) and it was ignoring warnings on ALL frequencies. It was also Squawking 1200 (VFR).

The U.S. had a similar plan in order to bolster support for an invasion of Cuba IIRC.

I see you're still trying to polish your talent at prevarication..

Google "Operation Northwoods"
The CIA & DOD came up with a good number of off the wall plans.

Jorge,what is Squawking 1200 (VFR?)

The plane was broadcasting a transponder radio signal that could be tracked. It identifies the plane, altitude and airspeed.

You are one funny little twerp..
Most likely the CIA and their masters the "Sate Dept." were involved in the shot down..
ovomit has been jonesing for a war with Russia and Putin out maneuvers him at every turn!
Russian has nothing to gain going to war..
The Wests political and finical elite have everything to gain from going to war..
Pull your [bleep] head out of your farthole!

Ok,so next question,the Iranian plane was NOT giving any ID to the tower,correct?

Already familiar with it.

It wasn't communicating with the tower or heeding warnings.

1200 on the transponder is a code for Visual Flight Rules aircraft that have not been assigned another code by the tower.

GMTA.

So,the pilots played stupid and then got their a** flamed. Dumba**es!

Your probably right. Though maybe the Russians provided the radar intercept info/guidance and Russian special forces fired the missile.

I don't think that even Tyrant Obama the Liar is stupid enough to do something like this. Russia has been invading Ukraine and pretending to be Ukrainian rebels fighting a civil war. They have been shooting down airplanes with missiles and got this one also.

Not stupid. This is how airliners fly all the time. They don't expect idiots to shoot them down.

There's absolutely no way Bammy would have arranged for this plane to get zapped in the hope of sparking a war with Russia. For one, Barry doesn't strike me a war monger. More importantly, a war does nothing to further his political agenda here in the US. War tends to unite a country and fuel the pride of nationalism. That won't help open the door for amnesty of illegals and risks the political stronghold that democrats currently have in national elections.

Barry is a globalist shill. He serves at their pleasure. War and disruption always benefits globalist objectives, i.e., to tear down what's left of the old order in order to further consolidate power in the hands of banker technocrats.

Lots of folks here burning powder....but there ain't no lead loaded!!

At this point in history, the Russian government is being more honest with the world that the U.S. government,....and pretty much everybody outside of the United States realizes it.

The mainstream media in this country has been replaced by a propaganda machine.

If you don't look outside of it for your information, you're going to think that up is down and back is forth.

Exactly.

Only an IDIOT, or someone blinded by hatred can't see the facts as to who shot down this airplane.

planes get shot down over war=zones all the time. is this time any different?

war is bad. flying passenger jets over war zones is just idiotic. maybe they were doing it to cut costs of operation? I do not know.

Russia supplied pilots to the North Koreans in that conflict. They also supplied planes, and pilots, not to mention SA2 SAMS and their crews to the North Vietnamese.
Russia supplied material, training, special forces and cover to the 'separatists' in the Georgia conflict.
Russia supplied troops, weapons, intelligence, media and cover for the recent partition of Ukraine and Crimea.
Why is is such a freaking leap to assume that they are not doing the SAME damn thing with regards to the Ukrainian separatist movement?
What does Putin have to gain? Well, territory, all those nuke weapons that stayed in the Ukraine, and it he is known to want to reconstruct the old Soviet Union.
The BUK system that shot down the Malaysian air liner was recently moved into the Ukraine, was manned by Russian troops, and taken back to Russia after it's task was done.
Putin knows that no one in the world will do a damn thing about anything he does.
He has a lot to gain, and very little to lose. Hell, it was the commie effers that taught American progressives about the big lie.

Pretty sure the 'Krainians gave all those back to mommy russia when they went independent.