I watched an interesting documentary tonight that postulated that the fatal shot that killed JFK was actually an ND fired by a SS agent in the chase car.
Apparently this has been touted before, but this investigation also considered additional evidence/files/testimony made public during the Clinton administration.
Essentially, the theory is that Oswald fired only two shots, and that in the heat of the moment and as a reaction to these, an SS Agent in the chase car picked up a loaded and cocked AR15, but in the commotion/confusion, had an ND that struck JFK in the head resulting in the horrific head wound.
Part of this is based on testimony of several witnesses in and around the motorcade that they could smell gunpowder after the third shot and also evidence from the autopsy.
This records the entrance hole to the head wound as measuring 6mm in diameter which is too small for a bullet from Oswald's 6.5, but the correct size for a 5.56mm from an AR15.
They also note the head wound itself and the massive tissue damage is more in keeping with a frangible bullet from an AR15 than an FMJ as used by Oswald.
I am not sure we will ever know the truth, but if a second shooter was involved, a simple "cock up" seems more likely than some of the very complex conspiracy theories advanced by some..
I don't think the AR15/M16 was in wide use in 1963, let alone by the Secret Service. I also think someone would have eventually spilled the beans about the ND, and found a 5.56 shell casing either in the chase vehicle, or the street.
Having watched the video more than a few times... I cant imagine anyone thinking the last shot came from the rear ?
They looked at the position of KFJ's head in the various footage and also the position of the entrance and exit wounds, plus the massive damage done to the brain and the skull. They deduced some angles ect, and its seems a shot coming from the chase car best fits the evidence.
Plus, the agent concerned was photographed holding the AR15 with one hand sort of trying to steady himself in the chase car as it speeds forward..He even gave testimony to the Warren Commission that he picked up the rifle from the floor of the car, but of course did not say he fired it..
I've seen the head flip footage debated lots of times, and I am keeping an open mind as to how JFK' body is reacting..
That said, an ND from a chase car does seem a very plausible idea and would also perhaps explain the actions of SS following the autopsy which did smack of a cover up...
I don't think the AR15/M16 was in wide use in 1963, let alone by the Secret Service. I also think someone would have eventually spilled the beans about the ND, and found a 5.56 shell casing either in the chase vehicle, or the street.
There was one in use that day in the car behind Kennedy. That much has been proven, along with the fact that it was pulled up for operation.
Many people on the street by the motorcade smelled burnt gunpowder afterwards too. That pretty much means some firearm discharged at that level, and proximity.
Not saying it happened that way, but it could have.
But seriously, Pete, the vast majority of Americans cannot keep a secret, no matter how many oaths they take over their professional careers.
If a Secret Service agent had an ND and killed the president, a lot of people would have known about it and I would say that at least half of them would have written it up in memoir form to be published after their deaths. A lot of them are dead of old age now.
There hasn't been a peep and we are a nation of blabbermouths.
I've seen the head flip footage debated lots of times, and I am keeping an open mind as to how JFK' body is reacting..
A reaction to a heavy bullet headshot and a high velocity hollowpoint are different enough that I could buy the .223 HP from the rear being the cause of that trauma and reaction.
But seriously, Pete, the vast majority of Americans cannot keep a secret, no matter how many oaths they take over their professional careers.
If a Secret Service agent had an ND and killed the president, a lot of people would have known about it and I would say that at least half of them would have written it up in memoir form to be published after their deaths. A lot of them are dead of old age now.
There hasn't been a peep and we are a nation of blabbermouths.
Maybe, or maybe not, not with something of this magnitude anyway..
The documentary also mentioned that Clinton ordered a re examination of all the documents/evidence with a view to them being made public.
Many of the agency's complied but the Secret Service just happened to have destroyed all the stuff they had a week before the order was given..
I have spent the last 50+ years reading everything that I can about the assassination. There is far too much evidence that was ignored or altered by the Warren Commission for it to stand as a valid investigation.
Have you guys ever BEEN to Dealy Plaza? I have. I stood on the X in the street , looked up at that window and the first thing I said was - "I could make that shot". Slow moving open car moving slightly away - It's a fairly easy shot that I would think most guys on here could make.
Two years ago I had an opportunity to visit the site of the shooting and look though the window of the 6th floor. There are 2 X's painted on the street indicating where the car was when the 2 shots were fired that hit.
Not saying there isn't more to the story, but I was struck by how easy the shots would have been. Just about anyone with any hunting experience could have made either shot more than 50% of the time. The car was traveling less than 5 mph and was almost straight away for the 2nd shot at about 40 yards. The 1st shot was at a bit of an angle, but only about 30 yards. Hunters make that shot at walking deer from elevated tree stands all the time.
The whole area is much smaller in person than it appears on TV. I see no way anyone with a gun could have gone unseen firing from the front. There is simply no place to hide and they would have been only about 20-25 yards from the car at the time of the 2nd shot.
The gov't has a hard time keeping real secrets - like the names of our spies, and software for submarines.
The idea that someone in our gov't arranged/covered up such a shocking/historic crime, and no one ever spilled the beans in 51 years just doesn't pass the smell test. And if it was Castro/the Mafia/the CIA/the KGB was believed to have done the deed, that organization would have been hunted to the ends of the earth.
If a large organization(with resources) wanted Kennedy gone, they would have picked a different method. Shooting at a moving car was a fairly low percentage shot. They could have just arranged for his mistress to be revealed, or some other embarrassing trick. The risk would have been far less.
No one wants to believe one jackass could knock off the Potus, but he was skilled, and lucky enough to do so.
The gov't has a hard time keeping real secrets - like the names of our spies, and software for submarines.
The idea that someone in our gov't arranged/covered up such a shocking/historic crime, and no one ever spilled the beans in 51 years just doesn't pass the smell test. And if it was Castro/the Mafia/the CIA/the KGB was believed to have done the deed, that organization would have been hunted to the ends of the earth.
If a large organization(with resources) wanted Kennedy gone, they would have picked a different method. Shooting at a moving car was a fairly low percentage shot. They could have just arranged for his mistress to be revealed, or some other embarrassing trick. The risk would have been far less.
No one wants to believe one jackass could knock off the Potus, but he was skilled, and lucky enough to do so.
How do you explain the 6mm entrance hole in the skull?
If that information was recorded accurately during the autopsy, surely it rules out the shot coming from Oswald's 6.5mm?
Two years ago I had an opportunity to visit the site of the shooting and look though the window of the 6th floor. There are 2 X's painted on the street indicating where the car was when the 2 shots were fired that hit.
Not saying there isn't more to the story, but I was struck by how easy the shots would have been. Just about anyone with any hunting experience could have made either shot more than 50% of the time. The car was traveling less than 5 mph and was almost straight away for the 2nd shot at about 40 yards. The 1st shot was at a bit of an angle, but only about 30 yards. Hunters make that shot at walking deer from elevated tree stands all the time.
The whole area is much smaller in person than it appears on TV. I see no way anyone with a gun could have gone unseen firing from the front. There is simply no place to hide and they would have been only about 20-25 yards from the car at the time of the 2nd shot.
Agreed, I have been there. It is a fairly small area. The idea that someone was hiding "on the grassy knoll" with a high powered rifle is laughable. It's just not that big of an area, and there were several people gathered there. No way a man with a rifle would have been there unnoticed.
I don't think the AR15/M16 was in wide use in 1963, let alone by the Secret Service. I also think someone would have eventually spilled the beans about the ND, and found a 5.56 shell casing either in the chase vehicle, or the street.
There was one in use that day in the car behind Kennedy. That much has been proven, along with the fact that it was pulled up for operation.
Many people on the street by the motorcade smelled burnt gunpowder afterwards too. That pretty much means some firearm discharged at that level, and proximity.
Not saying it happened that way, but it could have.
Geezus H Krist. This horse is not only dead, it has decomposed into dust. When will people stop beating it?
How many of you have seen animals flinch when hit, sometimes toward you? How many of you could accurately measure within one-half a millimeter in bone? Name me one other even half-ass secret the goobermint has managed to keep secret for half a century.
The gov't has a hard time keeping real secrets - like the names of our spies, and software for submarines.
The idea that someone in our gov't arranged/covered up such a shocking/historic crime, and no one ever spilled the beans in 51 years just doesn't pass the smell test. And if it was Castro/the Mafia/the CIA/the KGB was believed to have done the deed, that organization would have been hunted to the ends of the earth.
If a large organization(with resources) wanted Kennedy gone, they would have picked a different method. Shooting at a moving car was a fairly low percentage shot. They could have just arranged for his mistress to be revealed, or some other embarrassing trick. The risk would have been far less.
No one wants to believe one jackass could knock off the Potus, but he was skilled, and lucky enough to do so.
How do you explain the 6mm entrance hole in the skull?
If that information was recorded accurately during the autopsy, surely if rules out the shot coming from Oswald's 6.5mm?
You have a reference for a 6mm hole? I just did a quick search and there's several different drawings of the fatal woulnd out there.
Two years ago I had an opportunity to visit the site of the shooting and look though the window of the 6th floor. There are 2 X's painted on the street indicating where the car was when the 2 shots were fired that hit.
Not saying there isn't more to the story, but I was struck by how easy the shots would have been. Just about anyone with any hunting experience could have made either shot more than 50% of the time. The car was traveling less than 5 mph and was almost straight away for the 2nd shot at about 40 yards. The 1st shot was at a bit of an angle, but only about 30 yards. Hunters make that shot at walking deer from elevated tree stands all the time.
The whole area is much smaller in person than it appears on TV. I see no way anyone with a gun could have gone unseen firing from the front. There is simply no place to hide and they would have been only about 20-25 yards from the car at the time of the 2nd shot.
I just looked it up and the head shot was 81 meters at a 17 degree down angle.
Essentially, the theory is that Oswald fired only two shots, and that in the heat of the moment and as a reaction to these, an SS Agent in the chase car picked up a loaded and cocked AR15, but in the commotion/confusion, had an ND that struck JFK in the head resulting in the horrific head wound.
That's funny, because in the other thread it was claimed the video "PROVES" the shot came from the front.
Maybe, or maybe not, not with something of this magnitude anyway...
Well, exactly. The sheer magnitude of it, the sheer number of people who would have to be involved, maintaining secrecy for decade after decade.
And not just the people directly involved before and after the killing. Who, given access to this kind of secret, would resist the temptation to tell at least one trusted friend, especially toward the end of their lives?
And that trusted friend would tell another trusted friend.
How do you explain the 6mm entrance hole in the skull?
Where's the proof of the size of the hole? All I've seen is claims on the internet, and you know how reliable they are
That's what it measured. Saw the entire diameter thing in a recent documentary.
It doesn't prove much though.
That's the intriguing thing about the whole scenario... There's not enough evidence to fully support ANY explanation. Therefore lots is open to conjecture because it can't be proven or disproven.
Lotsa money in books and films relating to the case though...
How can a 5.56mm FMJ (.224") expand to 6mm before hitting the skull?
I could imagine a bullet causing a slightly larger hole as it punches through something like bone, but have a hard time accepting that bone has enough elasticity to allow it to spring back from a 6.5mm hole to a 6mm..
But, hey, I am not an expert, and strange things sometimes happen..
I was alive and cognizant at the time. The various conspiracy theories then and now were so convoluted, so complex, and so unconvincing that I have never varied from the principle of Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is probable true.
Secret Service, contrary to TX law, whisks the body away from Parkland once he is pronounced dead.
I can picture the Secret Service violating Texas state law without much hesitation.
Wouldn't have merited any thought if they had used bona fide docs to do their autopsy, And hadn't "misplaced" his brain.
That was kinda what made me start to wonder about the more recent AR15 theory.
If he'd been shot with a .223 HP, that brain would have been full of small lead and jacket fragments. Not so with those heavy FMJ's or whatever Oswald was shooting, but it's kinda hard to deny fragments. So, the brain goes missing...
Even to this day, if the brain were avl. it could tell us lots about what shot him, and what direction & weapon were used.
How can a 5.56mm FMJ (.224") expand to 6mm before hitting the skull?
I could imagine a bullet causing a slightly larger hole as it punches through something like bone, but have a hard time accepting that bone has enough elasticity to allow it to spring back from a 6.5mm hole to a 6mm..
But, hey, I am not an expert, and strange things sometimes happen..
Well,for me at least, it doesn't pass the common sense and logic test.
JFK was killed by a shot by Lee Harvey Oswald. That however, is too boring, so people have to spice things up with a bevy of conspiracy theories in which each picks villians of their particular paranoia's.
And if there is a conspiracy, it is far, far, far more likely that it involved the mob, who had always promised his father that they would get back at him for his sins against them in the good ol days. And for JFK's failure to honor their manipulations of the Chicago elections to give him Illinois and enough electoral votes to get elected.
After him would be the Cuban ex-pats.
And his popularity rating was one of the lowest in history of an incumbent president, so it is unlikely anyone was going to spend the effort and risk just to eliminate him.
Barry! I can run out in the back pasture real quick and photo some skulls with 22 short holes in em! Lots more skull left and just as dead! Would that help?
I have shot plate metal w/ .223 and the clean hole produced is larger than .223 diameter. May be so with a skull as well?
I have large boar skulls headshot with my .223, and it's hard to tell anything, other than half of it is missing...
So as you shot these hogs.. did any of the bone fragments or tissue come toward the muzzle? In all the years of prarie dog hunting I've done.. theres never been a front flip or even a forward roll.
The Secret Service didn't have AR-15's on that day in Dallas. I don't even think the US Army had them at that point in time. The Secret Service of the Treasury Department and the current USSS are different from what I can tell, but this assertion is silly.
The Secret Service didn't have AR-15's on that day in Dallas. I don't even think the US Army had them at that point in time. The Secret Service of the Treasury Department and the current USSS are different from what I can tell, but this assertion is silly.
Yes, they did. In the car behind Kennedy. That's a fact. Take a gander at the photo above for one piece of provenance.
Went back and read the part of the article that mentions the FMJ. The writers were reffering to the 6.5mm bullet. MY MISTAKE!
From the article.
The way the bullet produced as many as 40 tiny fragments inside Kennedy�s brain, and the reported 6mm diameter of the entry wound in the back of the skull, were inconsistent with 6.5 mm Carcano bullets, Donahue contended. His analysis did agree with Specter�s �single bullet theory� that such a full metal jacket projectile was capable of drilling through Kennedy�s upper back and throat, and Texas Gov. John Connelly�s back, rib and wrist before lodging in his thigh. But Donahue couldn�t comprehend such a bullet disintegrating inside a brain. Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/S...esident_Kennedy.html#lRCLclQ22WricAqz.99
I was alive and cognizant at the time. The various conspiracy theories then and now were so convoluted, so complex, and so unconvincing that I have never varied from the principle of Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is probable true.
I don't think the AR15/M16 was in wide use in 1963, let alone by the Secret Service. I also think someone would have eventually spilled the beans about the ND, and found a 5.56 shell casing either in the chase vehicle, or the street.
It's been established beyond doubt with photographic evidence from the day in question there was an Ar15/M16 in the chase car.
Did it fire the fatal shot? That's an interesting question, but one was present.
I was alive and 10yrs old. Why is everybody cheering?
Yes I was present in Ft. Worth the day before when he arrived at Carswell AFB. But, for the record, I was not in Dallas the next day for all the hoopla. I could not get out of Mrs. Boynton's 2nd grade class at Waverly Park elem school and make the drive on the toll road to Dallas. Otherwise I may have been the only collateral damage that day. Then I would not be here to entertain.
As a caveat, I have heard rumors that Kennedy was not the intended target. It was Governor Connelly! He had heap enemies back in the day.
Trust me, having actually measured bullets and bullet holes after they hit stuff in a criminal forensic capacity(wildlife, but this stuff still ends up in court), it is EXTREMELY difficult to tell an actual caliber of anything other than a bullet shank. And even then, those are often distorted, and in a case I'm very familiar with, we know the rifle it came from (.270), but if I measure the shank in one spot I can get .304, in another I can get .257. So, I don't know where this 6mm idea came from, but if it's from skin, that is EXTREMELY elastic. If it's from skull, it may be because the bullet distorted or squeezed itself down slightly. And half a millimeter isn't much. Anyway, I can see how someone might confuse a hole caused by a 6.5mm for a 6mm bullet.
Oh and to throw more gas on this and run away, 6mm equals 0.236 inches, not .243 in case you were wondering.
I thought Donahue's book did the best job of looking at the ballistic evidence in a scientific manner. He stuck with material evidence and left conspiracy theories to the crackpots.
It's not inconceivable that the SS agent didn't even know he fired the 'fatal shot' at the time. With LHO already a verified perp and the fact that the neck/chest shot would've most likely been fatal anyway, there was no reason to not to sew the story up nice and tight.
Donahue mentions that spectroanaylsis of the brain frags could've proved the origins of the bullet--had they been allowed to be tested. The book is definitely worth a read, in any case.
No. No they didn't. I wasn't in the follow up car in Dallas that day. I had coworkers that were. I was in High School twenty miles away, but eleven years later I was working in the Dallas Field Office, we didn't have M-16s even then. If you can believe this guy who's writing all the tell all Secret Service books, they still don't have AR platform weapons. I'd be really interested in seeing this picture of the M-16 in the film, can someone post it?
It seems the further away we get in time from the event the nuttier the theory's get.
Nobody disputes the fact that there was an AR15 in the car behind Kennedy. Nor do they dispute the fact that it was deployed upon the first shot by Agent George Hickey.
Thank you for posting the picture, this is the first time I've seen it. And, you are right I'm quite happy with my "delusions". I had no intent to insult you in my comments.
I'm not insulted. I frankly don't even believe the theory that much, about the SS killing Kennedy...
But, some theories beat what we were lead to believe about a heavy bullet ricocheting, changing directions, and hitting multiple targets....as was what was told us for a couple or 3 decades.
One thing I CAN count on, is that the government won't tell us the truth, even if they possess it.
The MSN homepage has a very interesting story from the Washington Post (which probably would also be a place to find it) about a trial involving one of the myriad compartmentalized facets of the government (this one Navy) that run their own operations completely without oversight.
I was alive and cognizant at the time. The various conspiracy theories then and now were so convoluted, so complex, and so unconvincing that I have never varied from the principle of Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is probable true.
It was Oswald. Alone. Period.
(Sound of crickets.)
Actually, if the "Razor" principle is applied when viewing ALL the strange happenings surrounding the JFK assassination, a cover up IS the simplest explanation.
Its a cottage Industry, it sells books and what not, what really happened was that Lee Harvey Oswald, took a shot at General Walker and missed, they published JFK Route and that he would be in an Open Limo, it as about politics and getting Democrats elected. JFK was all trussed up do to a very bad back problems and could not bend very well, and from the Window it was just a little over 65 yards distance, going away, an easy shot. Oswald was a Communist and he did it on his own, Then Jack Ruby for reasons in his own mind, was able to get close to Oswald and make an even bigger mess! Its nothing new, look at the 9/11 event we know what happened and how, but there are all kinds of theories to say other wise. It was a tragic day to be sure, but it was Oswald and Oswald alone because fate just put it in his lap and he was able to fire three shots and make two hits. The rest is just about how I can get my book published and how many fools will buy it, I spent a lot of years hunting big game, and some times the eye see what the eyes want to see, a good set a bino's helps but some times that deer looks a lot smaller on the ground that when you had the sights on it!
Its a cottage Industry, it sells books and what not, what really happened was that Lee Harvey Oswald, took a shot at General Walker and missed, they published JFK Route and that he would be in an Open Limo, it as about politics and getting Democrats elected. JFK was all trussed up do to a very bad back problems and could not bend very well, and from the Window it was just a little over 65 yards distance, going away, an easy shot. Oswald was a Communist and he did it on his own, Then Jack Ruby for reasons in his own mind, was able to get close to Oswald and make an even bigger mess! Its nothing new, look at the 9/11 event we know what happened and how, but there are all kinds of theories to say other wise. It was a tragic day to be sure, but it was Oswald and Oswald alone because fate just put it in his lap and he was able to fire three shots and make two hits. The rest is just about how I can get my book published and how many fools will buy it, I spent a lot of years hunting big game, and some times the eye see what the eyes want to see, a good set a bino's helps but some times that deer looks a lot smaller on the ground that when you had the sights on it!
Like I said in another post, now it's COOL for you N.E. "Elites" to believe the Warren Commission and not the House investigation.
I reckon I've probably killed about as many deer as you have in my 60 years of hunting them and they shed not one bit of light on JFK getting killed [ which was a good thing, btw] since I never SAW JFK being shot.
There is no comparison between the ragheads flying planes into buildings on 911 and the JFK deal. You need to find a more apt comparison, and........ lay off the condescending tone in your posts.
Actually, if the "Razor" principle is applied when viewing ALL the strange happenings surrounding the JFK assassination, a cover up IS the simplest explanation.
You may be thinking of Occam's Razor. I tend to put a lot of stock in Hanlon's Razor, which says: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
I strongly suspect (and cannot prove) that whatever covering up was being done by state and federal employees, it was for the purpose of covering up earlier stupidity.
Agreeing with one government commission's finding does not equate to buying in to everything they tell us. Nor does disagreeing with it somehow prove your research was more extensive than anyone else's or that you are somehow less else gullible. So believe a government who would cover up....for who knows why, or one of the hundreds of people trying to sell books to people wanting to know the 'truth'.
Some questions: if he was shot from the front, and after repeatedly looking at that sick film I can't honestly say I know for CERTAIN either way, I would ask why did no single person see anyone shooting from the front? I do not believe I have heard anyone claiming to hear a shot from, or who ran in that direction. Everyone already passed by the limo would be looking that way. Why is there no bullet hole in the trunk or seat or wherever it would be expected?
No one thinks Oswald did not shoot at all do they? So what, the conspiracy decided to use two different calibers, one super exploding bullet, and still pin it on LHO. If Oswald did not shoot JFK why did he shoot tippet, why say its all over now and pull a gun on cops in the theater?
The silliness about Oswald being seen two floors below minutes later and not out of breath, I know personally it is a no brainer. I used to work in a 9 floor office building and ten years older than Oswald would take the back stairs and had a little game where I would fly down as fast as I could in under two minutes and hardly be breathing hard at floor level. Gravity helps.
Unless i skipped through it, that simulation does not address JFK's head shot. Single-bullet pass-through hitting JFK and Connelly is the easy part.
Originally Posted by Ghostinthemachine
Here's the vid that sealed it for me. There is no doubt, he was shot from the rear.
That doesn't mean that a conspiracy never transpired or that Oswald wasn't what he said he was, a patsy.
The animation shows what the one bullet did with great detail...almost looks computer generated
What it doesn't show is what the last bullet did, the one that turned Kennedy's brain into jello.. I just am not accustomed to seeing a FMJ bullet explode on impact, violently explode... leaving brains on the motorcycle cops and the lemo following behind, Let's see a computer animation of that shot, please.
The Warren Commission did not investigate the assassination but led this nation down a trail of misinformation and deception as they were instructed to do.
Too much evidence lost during their investigation for their findings to be substantiated.
Believe what you will but don't call others who choose to disagree dead horse beaters.
The bullet that hit JFK in the back began to tumble before it hit the Governor in the back. It tore a large entrance hole. Could it be possible that after entering JFK ' S skull from the rear the bullet tumbled while inside and caused a nasty exit wound?
... I do not believe I have heard anyone claiming to hear a shot from, or who ran in that direction...
There is a large number of people who claim and did just that.
You could put 100 people in an urban setting and in different locations and have someone fire a shot in any safe direction...
Half of them would swear the bullet whizzed by there ear within inches, and none of them would agree as to where the shot originated, or even how many shots were fired.
The bullet that hit JFK in the back began to tumble before it hit the Governor in the back. It tore a large entrance hole. Could it be possible that after entering JFK ' S skull from the rear the bullet tumbled while inside and caused a nasty exit wound?
I've never seen the JFK/Connally bullets. I DID see what this bullet did:
NEAR shoulder
OFFSIDE shoulder
BULLET [300 gr. HP 45 70 factory load] lodged under hide on offside shoulder
Bullet still weighed 290+ grains
Ask most any hunter and they would claim the reverse [small entrance and large exit] path for the bullet, whether seeing pictures or the hog.
What it doesn't show is what the last bullet did, the one that turned Kennedy's brain into jello.. I just am not accustomed to seeing a FMJ bullet explode on impact, violently explode... leaving brains on the motorcycle cops and the lemo following behind, Let's see a computer animation of that shot, please.
That's because the bullet DIDN'T explode, his head did. The head shot is EXACTLY what you would expect from a head shot from behind with a high velocity round. Remember hydrostatic shock? That's what blew the skull cap off, not the bullet directly. The bullet entered a closed vessel that's 90% water at 2,000 fps. On impact the shock wave of the bullet would create tremendous pressure, and that pressure has to go somewhere. And that somewhere was blowing the skull piece loose in the front, because the front is where the pressure is exerted.
Also know that a 160 grain FMJ, like the 5.56 is famous for de-stabilizing on impact and tumbling. Even if the bullet yawed just a little, at that close of range the bullet was traveling through the skull at over 2,000 fps, which is the threshold for where it's proven that hydrostatic shock, or the "stretch cavity" can cause indirect tissue damage.
A bullet would never blow a head up like that from a frontal shot. Now a contact wound could, but that would be from the muzzle blast, not the bullet.
I'm really surprised, everyone here are gun guys, and 99% of those here have seen real rifle bullet wounds and I guaran-freakin-tee you that none have seen entrance wounds that look like that. But we've all seen exit wounds that look like that.
The head shot was absolutely text book wound from a bullet impacting from behind, how can you think otherwise?
"I'm really surprised, everyone here are gun guys, and 99% of those here have seen real rifle bullet wounds and I guaran-freakin-tee you that none have seen entrance wounds that look like that. But we've all seen exit wounds that look like that."
What it doesn't show is what the last bullet did, the one that turned Kennedy's brain into jello.. I just am not accustomed to seeing a FMJ bullet explode on impact, violently explode... leaving brains on the motorcycle cops and the lemo following behind, Let's see a computer animation of that shot, please.
That's because the bullet DIDN'T explode, his head did. The head shot is EXACTLY what you would expect from a head shot from behind with a high velocity round. Remember hydrostatic shock? That's what blew the skull cap off, not the bullet directly. The bullet entered a closed vessel that's 90% water at 2,000 fps. On impact the shock wave of the bullet would create tremendous pressure, and that pressure has to go somewhere. And that somewhere was blowing the skull piece loose in the front, because the front is where the pressure is exerted.
Also know that a 160 grain FMJ, like the 5.56 is famous for de-stabilizing on impact and tumbling. Even if the bullet yawed just a little, at that close of range the bullet was traveling through the skull at over 2,000 fps, which is the threshold for where it's proven that hydrostatic shock, or the "stretch cavity" can cause indirect tissue damage.
A bullet would never blow a head up like that from a frontal shot. Now a contact wound could, but that would be from the muzzle blast, not the bullet.
I'm really surprised, everyone here are gun guys, and 99% of those here have seen real rifle bullet wounds and I guaran-freakin-tee you that none have seen entrance wounds that look like that. But we've all seen exit wounds that look like that.
The head shot was absolutely text book wound from a bullet impacting from behind, how can you think otherwise?
So, Kevin..
Is bullet splash a myth?
Very high velocity, very frangible projectile? (The AR15 in use that day was loaded with 40gr HP's, according to the documentary I saw.)
Heavy bullets at reduced velocities perform exactly as you said, in most cases.
But high velocity, frangible bullets do exactly the opposite. And yes, I have seen that. In real life. In coyotes, hogs and deer. Especially when bone is encountered. A skull shot impacts bone immediately.
Let me guess............ you didn't make the shot or see the recovered bullets, did you?
But you are still certain of what happened and what didn't happen.
You figure the Warren Commission got it right and the HR Investigation got it wrong.
They CAN'T both be right.
I don't know if the Warren Commission got it all right, but they got the important part right. Oswald was the shooter, and all shots came from above and behind. There was no shooter on the grassy knoll. The 6.5 cartridge/bullets produced wounds that are completely consistent with that cartridge.
My theory.... Jackie O was bangin the AR guy in the 2nd car........ and/or Oswald..... and Ruby..... RFK.... The Greek... and Sammy Davis Jr.
She was sure as schit banging that fat greasy Onnasis fugger! And why is she in our Arlington Cemetery anyway?
I think there was a conspiracy surrounding the death of JFK. But I honestly think the conspirators thought 'Who will give a fugg if a couple Kennedy's get killed?'
Very high velocity, very frangible projectile? (The AR15 in use that day was loaded with 40gr HP's, according to the documentary I saw.)
Heavy bullets at reduced velocities perform exactly as you said, in most cases.
But high velocity, frangible bullets do exactly the opposite. And yes, I have seen that. In real life. In coyotes, hogs and deer. Especially when bone is encountered. A skull shot impacts bone immediately.
I'll concede the there could be some bullet splash from a 40gr varmint bullet.
But if the first shot clearly came from above and behind, and the second shot is completely consistent with an above and behind shot, wouldn't it be more likely that both shots came from the same gun?
And what are the chances of getting in and out of the grassy knoll parking lot with a rifle and not be noticed leaving right after the president was shot? And if you're going to make it all out to be a lone gunman, then wouldn't it be grossly negligent to fire two different cartridges? At the very least, you'd want to fire the same cartridge and same type bullet if your plan is to pin it on a single guy.
No, there is NO WAY to guarantee suppression of ballistic evidence, even if the Secret Service was in on it. There is no way you could guarantee that the second shooter wouldn't be spotted, it's a big wide open parking lot and people from buildings could see down into that parking lot for hundreds of yards. ...That would be very piss poor planning.
Look at this view, you really want to put a guy in that parking lot with a rifle while the president is expected? (ignore the arrow, not sure what that is, probably someone else's theory)
What's more, there were people milling about on the Knoll and in the parking lot, you really want to put a shooter right next to, behind people milling about? There's no way you could even remotely guarantee a clean exit, or even to get off a shot without being spotted. It's a LOUSY placement for a hit.
If someone was professional enough to pull off that large of a conspiracy, I don't see them making the mistake of using a different cartridge, shooting from a different angle if they wanted to blame it all on one guy. Wouldn't it make sense to have 2-3 guys all in different windows of the School Book Depository, all shooting rifles of the same cartridge? Come on, it just doesn't add up.
What's more, if you look at the Zapruder film frame by frame, using a ruler measuring the distance of the President's head to the back of Connoly's seat, you'll see that before the "explosion" of his head and the snap backwards, his head actually rocks violently forward (I wanna say it's only 2-3 frames). A quick google and here you go: http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100shot5.html
If the shot was from the front, why did his head move downward before snapping back?
The two wounds are completely consistent with an above and behind shot. Isn't it more likely that the two wounds came from the same gun, from the same spot, fired by the same guy?
"I'm really surprised, everyone here are gun guys, and 99% of those here have seen real rifle bullet wounds and I guaran-freakin-tee you that none have seen entrance wounds that look like that. But we've all seen exit wounds that look like that."
Did you look at the pictures I just posted?
I have never shot a critter and had things fly back toward me from a exit wound.
So not only would the Secret Service need to have involved Oswald to show up but they themselves would then need to plan how to fire the fatal shot after Oswald fired?
Quite silly actually.
Let's not give the secret service that much credit. Bunch of Barney Fifes.
If, and I mean IF, it was a conspiracy it would have been carried out by those with hard core experience at killing people like the Russians or the Mafia.
Lot's to pull on there. Oswald, spent time in Russia, Russian Wife, gets a job just weeks before the shooting at the book depository, kills the President and then is killed by Ruby, a Dallas Mob associate.
Great stuff but at the end of the day it was a really easy shot, close and going away, and Oswald for his own personal reasons took out JFK by himself.
If the shot was from the front, why did his head move downward before snapping back?
Because it wasn't from the front.
I don't buy the grassy knoll for a second.
The guy in the car with the AR15 was behind the presidential limousine.
I don't really buy that theory either.
That's the trouble with a fugged up investigation where evidence is missing. It leaves to much open to subjective theory.
Right!
That's why you have to look at a preponderance of the evidence. The ballistic evidence holds and makes sense. The look at Oswald and what he did days before the assassination; it adds up. The guy tried to kill a General the day before:
Quote
Marina Oswald testified that her husband told her that he traveled by bus to General Walker's house and shot at Walker with his rifle.[94][95] She said that Oswald considered Walker to be the leader of a "fascist organization."[96] A note Oswald left for Marina on the night of the attempt, telling her what to do if he did not return, was not found until ten days after the Kennedy assassination.
Quote
United States House Select Committee on Assassinations, Testimony of Dr. Vincent P. Guinn: Mr. WOLF. In your professional opinion, Dr. Guinn, is the fragment removed from General Walker's house a fragment from a WCC (Western Cartridge Company) Mannlicher-Carcano bullet? Dr. GUINN. I would say that it is extremely likely that it is, because there are very few, very few other ammunitions that would be in this range. I don't know of any that are specifically this close as these numbers indicate, but somewhere near them there are a few others, but essentially this is in the range that is rather characteristic of WCC Mannlicher-Carcano bullet lead.
And we know he shot officer Tippet
The ballistics evidence points to a single rifle, and a look at the suspect really points to a credible suspect. But hey, that's too easy.
So not only would the Secret Service need to have involved Oswald to show up but they themselves would then need to plan how to fire the fatal shot after Oswald fired?
Quite silly actually.
Let's not give the secret service that much credit. Bunch of Barney Fifes.
If, and I mean IF, it was a conspiracy it would have been carried out by those with hard core experience at killing people like the Russians or the Mafia.
Lot's to pull on there. Oswald, spent time in Russia, Russian Wife, gets a job just weeks before the shooting at the book depository, kills the President and then is killed by Ruby, a Dallas Mob associate.
Great stuff but at the end of the day it was a really easy shot, close and going away, and Oswald for his own personal reasons took out JFK by himself.
That's exactly what the theory says. You must not be familiar with it...
It says that after the first shot an agent standing in the back seat of the second car pulled the AR15 from the floor, switched the safety off, and had the rifle up... Then the driver gunned the car, knocking the agent off balance, and he inadvertently pulled the trigger, sending the headshot into the car in front.
Several witnesses at the limousine area reported smelling the distinct smell of Gunsmoke.
They didn't get that from the Oswald rifle.
But, hey... All of us will never know the truth and in it's entirety.
I have never shot a critter and had things fly back toward me from a exit wound.
1st � How many heads have you shot with a high power rifle? 2nd � How good of a look did you get at the results? 3rd � Have you ever had the luxury of having a video of the even that you could watch over and over?
Look at this video. The bullet comes from one direction, yet the explosive breakup of the watermelon shell throws watermelon flesh in all directions, even backward. And let's not forget, the president's body spasm'd and threw his head backward, which would throw fresh flesh and blood. Admittedly a watermelon isn�t a skull, but it�s a decent exaggerated analog since it has a hard outer shell and a soft center. So the results are exaggerated but the principle of what happens would still be quite similar.
What you see on the Zapruder film is completely consistent with a shot from behind with a 6.5 rifle.
Good stuff. My only questionis what happened to the fatal bullet?
It was never recovered, only small jacket fragments. Incidentally, they did to a metallurgical test and it was a match for the ammo used by Oswald. So there's another hole in the theory of a .223 either from the Grassy Knoll or the AR-15 in the hands of the secret service.
ETA - I probably shouldn't have used the word "match". The metallurgical makeup was consistent with the 6.5 ammo.
"I'm really surprised, everyone here are gun guys, and 99% of those here have seen real rifle bullet wounds and I guaran-freakin-tee you that none have seen entrance wounds that look like that. But we've all seen exit wounds that look like that."
Did you look at the pictures I just posted?
I've got no dog in this fight, but I've seen a bunch of entry wounds look like that, with a very small exit. Especially when bone is the first thing struck. Much like the photos Curdog posted.
I have never shot a critter and had things fly back toward me from a exit wound.
1st � How many heads have you shot with a high power rifle? 2nd � How good of a look did you get at the results?
Several, one was a deer with a 150 grain bullet at about 3000FPS from 20 or 30 feet, Her head blew up like a bomb went off in it. That was up close which any of us that have shot things from a distance and up real close know the difference and not from a Carcano from the distance Oswald was. Huge difference between 3000 up close and 2300 from a distance plus bullet construction, PSP VS. a military bullet.
Good stuff. My only questionis what happened to the fatal bullet?
It was never recovered, only small jacket fragments. Incidentally, they did to a metallurgical test and it was a match for the ammo used by Oswald. So there's another hole in the theory of a .223 either from the Grassy Knoll or the AR-15 in the hands of the secret service.
You musta missed that book, or documentary too.
That fragment evidence was tainted, had not chain of custody, and was handled by the secret service.
Kennedy's entire brain containing the actual fragments went missing, was not buried with him, and is still missing today.
That fragment evidence was tainted, had not chain of custody, and was handled by the secret service.
Kennedy's entire brain containing the actual fragments went missing, was not buried with him, and is still missing today.
Yeah, you're right; forgot about that.
Still, I keep coming back to the ballistic evidence that is consistent with a single rifle, from behind, and a nut case who attempted murder (politically motivated at that) the day before, and murdered a police officer on the day of the assassination.
I also believe that he fired the shot that took Kennedy in the neck. (Which also would have proved fatal.)
But, that headshot was thrown open to question because of the investigation, and the scenario that he was accidentally shot from his own keystone cops rifle is plausible when you look at enough items that have loose ends hanging off them.
I also believe that he fired the shot that took Kennedy in the neck. (Which also would have proved fatal.)
But, that headshot was thrown open to question because of the investigation, and the scenario that he was accidentally shot from his own keystone cops rifle is plausible when you look at enough items that have loose ends hanging off them.
Sure it's plausible, but how likely is it? Again, the head wound is consistent with a shot from behind. So you have a shooter who did fire one shot, so isn't it just much more likely he fired the other shot?
But to your point, I find an accidental shot from an AR much more plausible than the grassy knoll. But I still reject both.
Its a cottage Industry, it sells books and what not, what really happened was that Lee Harvey Oswald, took a shot at General Walker and missed, they published JFK Route and that he would be in an Open Limo, it as about politics and getting Democrats elected. JFK was all trussed up do to a very bad back problems and could not bend very well, and from the Window it was just a little over 65 yards distance, going away, an easy shot. Oswald was a Communist and he did it on his own, Then Jack Ruby for reasons in his own mind, was able to get close to Oswald and make an even bigger mess! Its nothing new, look at the 9/11 event we know what happened and how, but there are all kinds of theories to say other wise. It was a tragic day to be sure, but it was Oswald and Oswald alone because fate just put it in his lap and he was able to fire three shots and make two hits. The rest is just about how I can get my book published and how many fools will buy it, I spent a lot of years hunting big game, and some times the eye see what the eyes want to see, a good set a bino's helps but some times that deer looks a lot smaller on the ground that when you had the sights on it!
How far was the General away that Oswald missed because he was so nervous? Good he wasn't nervous in shooting at JFK, huh? I guess he probably went back to South Texas ranch and rechecked his scope zero after that easy shot miss.
Who's going miss an easy shot and then have the stupidity to not recheck things out before embarking on a grander mission and still have any smidgen of confidence and not a whole lot more nerves in the process.
When news reporters broke the news to Oswalds wife she said it was impossible as he was workig for the CIA. They didn't believe her and she left them on her front porch to get his check stubs which she showed.
I think Oswald might have been framed, but there's no doubt those shots came the 6th floor.
The guy could've gone into any gun store in Dallas and bought a schitty rifle, but no, he mail ordered it and had it delivered to a different po box.I believe it could've been done so it could be easily traced back to him.
Good stuff. My only questionis what happened to the fatal bullet?
It was never recovered, only small jacket fragments. Incidentally, they did to a metallurgical test and it was a match for the ammo used by Oswald.
Both had lead and copper?
I don't recall if it was both, just recall reading that a metallurgical test was done and it was consistent (not a "match", shouldn't have used that word) with the 6.5 ammo.
That sort of testing for an item as ubiquitous, with as many manufacturers, (even in 1963) as bullets to ID in any way similarity, is just silly at best.
My post suggesting both had lead and copper is about as conclusive as it could get and means nothing. it was tongue-in-cheek.
I have never shot a critter and had things fly back toward me from a exit wound.
1st � How many heads have you shot with a high power rifle? 2nd � How good of a look did you get at the results? 3rd � Have you ever had the luxury of having a video of the even that you could watch over and over?
Look at this video. The bullet comes from one direction, yet the explosive breakup of the watermelon shell throws watermelon flesh in all directions, even backward. And let's not forget, the president's body spasm'd and threw his head backward, which would throw fresh flesh and blood. Admittedly a watermelon isn�t a skull, but it�s a decent exaggerated analog since it has a hard outer shell and a soft center. So the results are exaggerated but the principle of what happens would still be quite similar.
What you see on the Zapruder film is completely consistent with a shot from behind with a 6.5 rifle.
Looks like all but the "blood" moved in the direction of the bullets travel.
Lyndon Johnson calling his tax lawyer to sell his Halliburton stock on the day of JFK�s assassination; LBJ makes call from Parkland Hospital; JFK�s body was still warm at this point
[from Family of Secrets by Russ Baker, p. 132]
QUOTE
Pat Holloway, former attorney to both Poppy Bush and Jack Crichton, recounted to me an incident involving LBJ that had greatly disturbed him. This was around 1PM on November 22, 1963, just as Kennedy was being pronounced dead. Holloway was heading home from the office and was passing through the reception area. The switchboard operator excitedly noted that she was patching the vice president through from Parkland Hospital to Holloway�s boss, firm senior partner Waddy Bullion, who was LBJ�s personal tax lawyer. The operator invited Holloway to listen in. LBJ was talking �not about a conspiracy or a tragedy,� Holloway recalled. �I heard him say: �Oh I gotta get rid of my [bleep] Halliburton stock.� Lyndon Johnson was talking about the consequences of his political problems with his Halliburton stock at a time when the president had been officially declared dead. And that pissed me off� It really made me furious.�
There are many other examples of LBJ�s apparent unconcern after the assassination, though none so immediate. For instance, on the evening of November 25, LBJ and Martin Luther King talked, and LBJ said, �It�s just an impossible period � we�ve got a budget coming up.� That morning he told Joseph Alsop that �the President must not inject himself into, uh, local killings,� to which Alsop immediately replied, �I agree with that, but in this case it does happen to be the killing of the President.� Also, on the same day LBJ told Hoover, �We can�t be checking up on every shooting scrape in the country.� UNQUOTE
That sort of testing for an item as ubiquitous, with as many manufacturers, (even in 1963) as bullets to ID in any way similarity, is just silly at best.
My post suggesting both had lead and copper is about as conclusive as it could get and means nothing. it was tongue-in-cheek.
No I don't have a link, I read it in a book called "Best Evidence" which was a KFK conspiracy book.
ETA - And although I don't go in for the conspiracies, Best Evidence was a very interesting read and interesting premise (that the body was surgically altered).
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