A study came out recently about instances of Hand-to-Hand Combat in the military that I think we can all benefit from taking a look at. Written by Peter R. Jensen of the United States Military Academy, it reinforces several things about hand-to-hand fighting and training that we already suspected, and offers a great deal of validation to how the best instructors are approaching combatives training in both the military and civilian contexts.

For the purposes of this study, hand-to-hand combat was defined as: “an engagement between two or more persons in an empty-handed struggle or with hand-held weapons such as knives, sticks, or projectile weapons that cannot be fired.”

This study is based on military personnel at war, and therefore we should be cautious when applying it to civilian self-defense, but there are several points I think we can safely apply to the defense minded citizen. I’ve added my thoughts on those points in bold below, along with the passage from the study that reinforces that view. A link to the entire study is at the end of the article, and you should definitely read the whole thing, especially if you are a member of the Armed Forces or a combatives instructor.

Here we go:

Hand-to-Hand fighting is a common scenario, and often involves weapons.

“216 out of 1,226 Soldiers (19.0%) reported using hand-to-hand combat skills in at least one encounter. The Soldiers’ descriptions indicated that hand-to-hand combat occurred in a variety of tactical situations and that the most common skills employed were grappling techniques (72.6%), followed by the use of weapons (e.g., rifle butt strikes; 21.9%); with striking as the least reported skill (i.e., punching and kicking; 5.5%). These results further reinforce that hand-to-hand combat remains a relevant demand and the US Army should continue such training with an emphasis on grappling skills practiced across a variety of performance settings.”

Having hand-to-hand skills gives you the ability to use different levels of force as needed, instead of defaulting to lethal force.

“The primary focus of combatives training is to develop fighting ability and skills that Soldiers need in an operational environment (US Army, 2009). Combatives is an important component of a Soldier’s ability to employ different levels of force as the intensity and demands of the operational environment change. Additionally, combatives training develops the aggression and confidence necessary for Soldiers to close with an enemy and “seize the initiative to dominate, disable, or kill”

Grappling, either on the ground or in the clinch, is inherent to hand-to-hand fighting in the real world.

“First, grappling was an ever-present aspect of a hand-to-hand combat encounter. Although striking and weapons use were not absent from hand-to-hand combat encounters, Soldiers reported that grappling with an opponent was an integral aspect of any encounter.”

If you are carrying a weapon openly, or if your concealed weapon becomes exposed, you will be forced to fight for control of the weapon in the event of contact distance attack.

“The second lesson incorporated from the PAIs was that Soldiers in OEF and OIF reported that their hand-to-hand combat encounters revolved around a contest over the Soldier’s weapon (e.g., rifle). It appears that a Soldier’s opponent regularly attempted to wrest control of the Soldier’s weapon during hand-to-hand combat encounters.”

Any training for self-defense must establish fundamental skills and be geared toward the threats most likely to occur in your lifestyle.

“Finally, the fighting skills needed for success in a hand-to-hand combat encounter required development through a deliberate process that included: (a) initially establishing basic fighting skills followed by, (b) expanding such skills within a training setting that reflected the demands and context of the operational environment.”

You need skills that can be instantly and reactively adapted to account for the unpredictable nature of hand-to-hand combat. Also, you need to practice these skills against resistant opponents so you can learn to “read and speak the language” of the fight.

“A recent study (Jensen & Wrisberg, 2014) interviewing 17 Soldiers about their experiences of fighting in hand-to-hand combat suggests hand-to-hand combat occurs in a swift and unexpected manner. The results of this study reveal that hand-to-hand combat takes place in an open skill environment (Wrisberg, 2007) characterized as dynamic and unpredictable, which requires Soldiers to develop skills that can continuously and rapidly adapt to the ever-changing demands of the performance setting… …Training in such open environments necessitates skill development that teaches Soldiers to recognize key performance cues and adapt their skills to the quickly changing demands of the environment, many times influenced by a willful opponent.”

Fighting for your life while in physical contact with a determined threat is extremely stressful.

“Furthermore, these authors found that although hand-to-hand combat was one of the least frequently reported combat stressors, it was one of the seven (out of 30 possible combat stressors) most psychologically stressful combat experiences reported by Soldiers.”

There is more that can be learned from the study (and I encourage you to view it in its entirety at the link below) but the above points are those that can be applied to the civilian population.

Until Next Time!

Justin White

http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA612103

Center for Enhanced Performance

Hand-to-Hand Combat and the Use of Combatives Skills: An Analysis of United

States Army Post-Combat Surveys from 2004-2008

Author: Peter R. Jensen

United States Military Academy, November 2014

They did a study and found out hand to hand combat is stressful? No crap, sherlock.

I used to be a defensive tactics instructor and am prior military.

As part of our training now we do a lot of on the ground grappling, weapons retention, red man scenarios. Usually have a at least a few injuries in our group after training. Training is conducted at about 50-60% otherwise too many injuries.

I used to wrestle in HS and college. I can maybe go a minute thirty now on a good ( age 52) of all out grappling, fighting before I feel like puking out my guts.

Fighting when you're tired, fatigued or after being punched in the face a few times adds a good element to the training. I see some people will just give up and curl into a ball after being punched kicked a few good times.


Oh and I have no illusions that I can go toe to toe with a guy in good shape trained in MMA in his 20'3 or 30's. I know that I most likely will get my ass kicked. Quite a few in the criminal element are part of the MMA culture and good police departments are training for that.
a lot of good points in there.

at my age and with my physical limitations, I have little ability to grapple or fight.
That does not mean that closing with me, or attempting to get the better of me will be painless though.

ribka... I agree with your remarks 100%. Like you I have no illusions about being able to fight as I could when I was younger, but I have learned to keep certain realities in mind and have changed my training/preparedness accordingly.

The big takeaway from that article in my opinion was the grappling statistics... I'm not saying there's no place for strike techniques in one's personal training, but it's a low priority for me and has been for some time.

Most on here have no experience/training in DT, but I know there's enough interested parties to make it worth sharing.

There were one or two other points in there as well, you might have missed them...

Good information, thanks for posting.

If you get me on the ground and squeeze me you might get more than you bargained for think toxic cloud

I'm sure we are busy establishing rules and regulations so women can partake...

This is why you never go "toe to toe" with anyone. The older I get the more I am willing to employ lethal tactics first and quickly.

I would never enter a fight with the idea of being tough enough to out last any opponent.

It's precisely because it is stressful that lethal force is my default.

Just sayin....

Disparity of force can allow that, circumstances permitting. It's certainly an option for us geezers, I agree.

At this age, I harbor no illusions to my hand to hand" fighting ability.

In fact, a midget with a foul disposition could easily put me in the market for a dual knee transplant.
,...squatty lil' bastard down there below by line of sight doin' a Mike Tyson impersonation on my acl's while I futively hammer him on top of the head with an arthritic fist.

That's why they make them little pocket .380's these days.

The target market is old grumpy men in baggy britches.

What does this mean: "either on the ground or in the clinch"?

Trayvon Martin thought the same thing.

I expect its a given that for most of us a hand to hand fight ain't gonna last very long, one way or another.

Most of us would have the time/space/energy at best for just one or two moves or strikes, best executed quickly and forcefully, if only to give us enough time/space to reach for a weapon.

In what setting can one best practice/acquire said skills? Krav Magaa?

The Tulsa reserve deputy should be able to use that defense.

... and Homos...

I think you hit the goal, which is to analyze your strengths and your opponent's weakness and exploit them both. The vertically challenged person could do the same thing to a pro football player if he does it right. He may only get one shot at the title, though, which is why this part is important:

At my advanced age and with several physical problems, if someone attacks me, I'll just have to call on my old and very dear friends, Col. Colt and his Nine Little Sisters, to help me.





L.W.

I ascribe to the following theories:

1. Age and treachery overcome youth and skills

2. Only a fool fights fair

3. Survival by any means necessary

4. In a fight be the dirtiest player in the game

5. Peace thru superior firepower

As tough as an MMA fighter or pro boxer may be, they are not trained or practiced in lethal techniques. They practice a sport and those sports by necessity dis-allow lethal techniques.

If a fight last longer than two strikes you have done it wrong.

i prefer to reason with the assailant. try to find some common ground and reason for his aggression towards me. failing that, i pepper him with dung-tipped chinese fighting stars and skeedaddle.

IMHO, MMA skills would be very useful in hand-to-hand combat. I found it significant that the article valued wrestling skills so highly in hand-to-hand scenarios. Whereas I notice Hollywood tends to like to focus on striking. Its worth remembering too that even a world class athlete can only go full-out for about a minute. As an example, folk style wrestling is extremely demanding. Wrestlers are the most fit, and over-trained athletes in existence. But even in college wrestling, there is a significant amount of periodic inactivity or relatively low levels extreme exertion as the wrestlers set-up takedowns or position to execute an escape move. It is extremely taxing for even a superbly conditioned collegiate wrestler to exert himself full-go for a take-down or an escape for even as little as one minute.

My .02 worth.


Jordan

MMC Combat Sight?

At my age of 66, with no training, a .357 at 10 feet is hand-to-hand. Fook-u azzwipe!

I don't think I'd stress much over it either, but I could be wrong, having never been there.

Yep. That fixed Hi Vis MMC sight works just fine for my tired eyes.

L.W.

Having BTDT -
whatever it takes, with rapidly graduating force and rapidly decreasing care about the well-being of the opponent.
I never start, I always try to finish, and generally do.

when adrenaline takes over a person in such situations, a person can surprise themselves with what they will do for self preservation.

Damnit, man, don't post stuff like that when I'm in the middle of drinking a soda...

That sport training is better than nothing. However, collegiate wrestling and MMA ground and pound are focused on pinning and leverage holds. Not incapacitation and deadly force.

What I am trying to say is self defense and hand to hand combat are a different thing than a sport. It starts with the mind set of immediately disabling an opponent not holding or pounding them into submission. Try that stuff with multiple attackers and you die.

I've been in dust-ups both as a Soldier and a Cop. BIG difference. ENORMOUS difference. Hand to hand as a soldier are over very quickly. You either make your kill or you are killed. No fancy stuff. RESTRAINING somebody otoh is a real bastard. To really survive the terminal hand to hand, one has to have an extremely harsh attitude.

criminals want to play MMA, shoot the SOBs. Go for my weapon, you will die, your choice.

But obviously if a weapon is empty then you have no other choice....

I fear that the pussification of America will affect our soldiers more and more as time goes on. Little boys learn a lot by being little boys with wrestling and other skills they learn while playing. That builds instincts that is hard to learn when older. I even suspect that playing cowboys and Indians when young would help in later life when the little boy becomes a soldier. miles

Jeff, another factor is the incredible speed with which a situation can go downhill. If you have witnessed or been a party to a deadly hand to hand battle, the 2 things that really stand out is the speed and the brutality. Any sane man would pass on either witnessing or participating in such a fight. All of the dissection Doc re-produced were done well after the ugly fact. There is generally no time to use a gun. A knife is a big maybe but actually more likely. Soldiers use knives/bayonets, their helmets, entrenching tools,rifle butts, rocks...ANYTHING to survive.

Years ago, I took Tai Kwon Do classes from a former ROK instructor and Vietnam vet.

Since we knew he had combat experience, we would pester him with questions about real fighting instead of what he was teaching us.

One day, pressed to give an opinion as to how a man wins a fight when he is up against an opponent of equal skill, he told us the man who gets in the first blow will usually win.

Truer words have never been spoken.

like the puters okay

still deciding on smart phones

air conditioning is great


but getting old sucks

and having the ROE change over my lifetime sucks too


came up on the short end a few times, but I feel sorry for young men these days. sex can kill ya, and so can Fri and Sat nite fighting

I grew up in the good old days, weekends were to F, fight or throw rocks and didn't really care which

in all my romping and stomping activities only had a gun pulled on me twice

statistically, that's not very much

sucks to be a young man today from what I can tell

This^^^^^

Ain't gonna be no fight. Period.

I heard that on a Spike TV reality show. MMA fighter trained with Marines in their hand to hand course. The Marine stated very confidently, "we don't train for points, we train to kill as fast as possible."

As others have said before, at 63 I am not what I once was.

I try to be watchful and observant, don't go out much at night

and carry daily.

But on the flip side,



Beware the old fart in the green vest.

Best,

GWB

Some very good points Doc, as well as some excellent points/ comments by the other posters.
Before I went into law enforcement, I was a member of a college judo team. Came in very handy out on the streets. Like was said, alot more about grapling, etc. than actual blows. However, effective blows, particularly when out numbered, can be crucial. Hate to tell you what I did and what used. Let's just say if I had an opening I took it. I'm still here. BTW, never hit anyone with your fist unless it's something "soft" like a nose, etc. You'll break your hand on his jaw and then you can't use that hand for weapons like guns.
Like somebody said, he who moves first, usually wins. You really need to see it coming. Above all, your intial, first move must be effective. If it isn't, you are real danger of losing in a very bad way.
Yes, your opponent will try to take any weapons from you and probably will use them on you. When I went through my police training, we were told that 80% of the cops shot dead were killed with their own weapons.
Last of all, never worry about using excessive force. I've seen people die over such concerns. At worse, remember, "I can can explain anything but my own death."
Yes, I, too, have had to fight for my life and my weapons hand to hand. More than a couple of times. I've seen others try this and some of them failed. We buried a few of them. E

Hand-to-hand?

Don't let those you don't know close with you
Know your surroundings, particularly behind you
Eyes, throat, crotch
Gun trumps knife trumps hands & feet
The better part of valor
Bigger, younger, fitter wins
and best
It looks bad, so I won't go there

A good article for those of us who still get to experience the thrill of being there, but most of us do best having a little healthy paranoia and caution.
And us others have said, being max nasty in a fight not avoided.

Yeah several videos showing police can take more time in eliminating their enemies than soldiers get to do.

You got that right!!!

But if the guy is able to get his hands on you, you still need to skills to retain and draw you weapon so you are able to put 2 in his guts.

Have you considered what that might look like?

The Clinch:

Experienced streetfighters, like cops and bouncers, avoid going to the ground if at all possible because someone will come out of the crowd and use your melon for a football.

The bad guy has some say in how the fight will proceed, it is probably a good idea to have a plan to solve an entangled engagement and create space to allow other options like your gun or knife etc.

If you can go full out for 1 minute you are a badass.


mike r

Hey sometimes reality can be brutal. All in all I won't let you take me down easy and it may get rank.

Yep, put the perp on the ground first like was done here:

rut-roh, I just heard there might be a negro in a pickup truck headed for North Central Florida and he hates pit bulls...

That is the truth right there.

One time I had to peel a thug off one of my buddies. I was this close to going for 3 pts with his head when I realized it probably wasn't worth murder charges.

At age 67, multiple damaged vertebrae; [C3-7,T7-10,L1-5, L6-S1]-3 herniated discs, 2 heart attacks, 1 stent[LAD] and Bi-lateral Neuropathy plays hell with trying to protect myself today as I was able to do in my younger days.
I do everything possible to avoid confrontation of any degree. If, however it becomes evident that aggressive behavior and/or physical contact toward my person is eminent, then a call for immediate assistance is necessitated:
My preferred prescription is a High-Potency Super Vitamin; A 230gr .45 cal. pill; Semi-conical nose with wide, deep dish; Copper clad w/lead core. Administered at the velocity of 975 feet per second, as a last resort. 2nd dose rarely required.
WILL.
Retired-15 yrs. Ga. Dept. Corrections; I don't have time to deal with foolish people playing stupid games.

I've been training in MMA for 18 years now. I've come to the following conclusion...If you know you're not in the physical condition to fight...and by that I mean that you don't train/fight every week...then you need to make sure you've got your gun out and pointed before someone who is trained gets close enough to touch you if they know or suspect you have a gun. If you don't have your gun out (and you're not an exceptionally strong individual) then I don't think you'll be able to draw it and if you started to it might get taken away from you (again, if they know or suspect you have a gun). If they don't consider the possibility of you having a gun then it's more likely you'll be able to get it.

Glad we got nationwide concealed carry for you.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fla-deadly-theater-shooting-texting-son-article-1.1720738

100% I was a bouncer for 5 years in my early 20s, i learned real quick to judge who was bluffing and who was really a bad dude. I always acted 1st. If I thought it was someone bluffing, i could usually grab them quick and introduce them to the door. If it was someone intent on getting into it, id watch thier hand wiht my arms crossed but my right hand close to my chin, from here as soon as I saw a hand move, i would deliver a very quick powerful elbow to the jaw. im not sure how many guys i knocked out that way, but it was more than 10 less than 20 probably. I always carried an ASP and had to use it more than i would have liked. A large guy (6'3 265) vs me (5'10 220) had a broken bottle and was trying his best to cut as many people as possible, stopping him included breaking his arm with a 36" asp with a 2oz tip. and another 10-12 strikes to take him down so the other guys could hold onto him. If i would have wanted to kill him, i could have easily split his stupid skull with that asp.

Agreed.

A man with a 1911 in a Milt Sparks holster on his hip is going to be toast if he's late recognizing the threat in the two teenage kids walking toward him.

Yep, best for LE to shoot anyone within 21 feet of them even if the officer is the cause for that lack of distance.

Ruh-roh!!!

But seriously, I've enjoyed reading the replies from all and sundry. Since I'm not a guy who's been in a lot of dust-ups, it's educational to read what some more experienced members have had to share.

But I've had a good bit of LE defensive tactics training, and learned early on that I'm not good enough at it to survive a serious fight with an opponent who is more skilled and stronger than I.

The only exception to this rule was at a LE conference after my first divorce, where I got into a lively discussion with a ginger-haired female defensive tactics instructor who kept trying to rassle with me at the bar. Eventually I had to cry "uncle" and take her up to my room, where we rassled to a mutually satisying draw. It was without a doubt my most enjoyable defensive tactics lesson ever.

A ginger haired female defensive tactics instructor?

SHWING!!!


mike r

Some of the guys I've met who have been in a lot of dust-ups have been cops in small towns who've had to break up too many bar fights.

A lot of small orthopedic injuries over the years have a way of adding up to one big hurt in middle age.

shooting them in a pro active manner has come to be frowned on these days.

Yes I have. First, I try to practice situational awareness when I and my wife are out and about. Secondly, if I suspect some dude(s) is acting "hinky," in my estimation, I'll be watching him every moment and "ready for Freddy."

Thirdly, in the remote possibility that some shythead did manage to grab me, I still know a couple of tricks to use that would give me the opportunity to pull my pistol and take care of business.

Not to say that nothing could ever possibly happen that a dude could grab me.... but I believe being aware and prepared, I could put a very bad taste in his mouth ... or at least, make him think strongly about taking up a different profession.

That's how I see it.

L.W.

Not sure if it has ever not been frowned upon. Nice in theory, but civilians shooting people because they may do something is problematic in numerous ways. Best to leave that privilege to professionals and there is a precedent on that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champ_Ferguson

Interesting thing happened last Tuesday in a State Park on the Minnesota Wisconsin border. Fisherman on both sides of the river were insulting each other for three hours.
Finally a father of five and wrestling coach drove to the other river bank in order to teach a young man some manners.
The young man pulled a knife and stabbed the older man to death. Lots of sympathy for the five fatherless children.

Yep, because he was older and a coach, Kelly should have been able to beat the younger man any way he wanted and it was wrong for the younger guy to try to leave the area, much less stab him to avoid Kelly pulling him out of the vehicle he was in.

Sticks and stones can hurt you but a knife can kill you. Bet his kids are sure impressed.

The bottom line..in spades..

Before I descended below the hard deck, I ascertained there was no danger, so I took the shot".. Good move, MAV!

Gives new meaning to the term "SUBMISSION HOLDS"

Well Jim, I don't know that all that much submitting got done, but I do admit to having a weakness for gingers...

I won't have to last long! My right hand and trigger finger work really well!! Old men don't fight!

How did you tell the difference between the bluffers and the serious? What signs did you look for? Verbal or non-verbal communication?

not acooper1983 but if you google pre-attack indicators you will find some good info. Even better go to Southnarc's site...Shivworks.

mike r

Doc, it would appear that we share common interests on several levels.


mike r

JCM: For the last ten yrs. in Corrections I was a Firearms Instructor; Well versed in the use of the four firearms used by the Dept. I first carried a .40 cal. G-35 w/G27 B/U. Now I choose a Series 80 SS and still carry the G27 in a GALCO SOB.
With 15 years in the prison environment, one learns to read body language, and the same goes for the street. Not always on top of everything, but when I go to the city, it's with my neighbor and we watch each other's back. Cols. is not getting any better, and I'm ALWAYS in Condition Orange/Red when on the street. With a loose outer shirt the IWB/Gov't model is virtually undetectable.
SHERP: You can't just go 'round pulling your sidearm whenever you feel threatened and I'm damned sure not going to jeopardize losing my Peace Officer certification doing something like that, but as I said earlier...If immediate threat is eminent I will react accordingly.

No doubt being able to read body language is a big plus. Having a friend and even bigger plus. Being ready to go is good.

Still think it's a tough job to get a concealed gun drawn if attacked by a skilled person who is close enough to touch you and expecting you to try to draw. Probably 1/2 the guys I train with are in law enforcement. I need to see if they have a fake gun/holster, and spend some time testing my theory.

It's all in the tell.

A man with a short length of steel pipe - and a good poker face - is a hard man to beat.



Let one of them wear the fake gun and holster.

I'm scared one of them will substitute a tazer for the fake gun. They've threatened me before. Da' police be like dat....