Those of you in the south, or with southern roots, how do you answer those who proclaim the flag represents a support for slavery or modern day racism? How do you define what the flag means to you?

And I swear, this is not an attempt to troll, I'm just completely ignorant on the whole matter. I don't believe for a minute that those proud of their southern roots are racist, nor do I see their pride in the flag as racism, but I would like to get it straight from the south, how you all perceive the flag what it means to southerners..

Thank you.

Easy. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. It was just one of the issues used to garner support before and after. Mostly after. It was about State's Rights and an oppressive government.

The flag is steeped in patriotic history. Current opposition only wants to focus on the slavery issue. Probably to avoid Americans noticing that our current government is worse

I grew up with Rebel flags all over my room because I loved Ole Miss from birth, nothing to do with race.
I've also loved history all my life.
But, when I grew up, I ditched the flags.
I would not fly one at my home, yet I am not offended by others who do.
I am a preacher and I preach in white and black member churches.
I don't want to offend my brothers in Christ over some kind of dedication to a nation that hasn't existed in 150 years.

I am proud to be from the South for many reasons.
Slavery and racism I am not proud of.

I think it is time to move on.

I've always looked at it representing those that fought for something that they believed in... I am a descendent of many who fought for the State of Virginia between 1861 and 1865...

I have always thought it was funny when those that said the Civil War was about Slavery, and that many people from the south put their lives on the line and many even lost their lives, defending slavery.

Many folks would have you believe almost everyone in the south owned slaves, when in reality less than 3 % of the entire population of the south owned slaves.

The rest of the south was made up of Scottish and Irish Immigrants and their descendents that came there to escape British Rule.... they survived being farmers, and living simply.

Their competition at market for what little they did have to sell, was plantation owners.. people with big money and big production capacity...

Why would anyone in their right mind, think these farmers would leave their homes, their farms and livelihood, their families, wives and children.... and put their lives on the line to defend the rights of their chief competitors, to own slaves and cut their pricing of their products at market?

But that is what folks in the North have been expecting the rest of the country believe from the day the Civil War Ended...

it makes them look like heroes, by painting the southerners as tyrants.

no one living today was a slave in the south, 150 years ago...
nor anyone living ever owned any slaves in the south 150 years ago...

These flags don't represent Racism or Slavery, to those that actually honor them....its only misguided deviants who align their twisted hatred to these flags....

I find it funny that the other people besides these twisted people who seem these flags representing hatred and racism, are the liberals and leftists who criticize them....

the liberal left wants to rewrite the entire fabric of American History... some idiot goes and kills 9 people in a church.. and the liberal left immediately goes off on the Confederate Battle Flag as the cause of it all....never letting a tragedy or crisis go to waste...

those that criticize it know little of what it really stands for and why it instills pride in those that revere it... as usual with liberals and leftist, they criticize something strictly to change the American Fabric of our nation....

The only hatred I see it representing is the hard the liberal left generates over it.. the same way, they are the ones that keep promoting racism by exploiting a cultural divide of the American public, based on skin color, religious beliefs and what someone's cultural and geographic heritage may be....

If I fly one, its not to portray hatred to anyone, especially a person of color.. its to commemorate those of my ancestors who fought for states rights...

This is dedicated to Capt Jonathan Wesley Page, 26th Virginia Volunteer Infantry...

So would you say that the vast majority of blacks in the south, see that flag as an insult, or are most indifferent?

I'd like to share this from FB.This lady is from Georgia.


I'm sorry but I'm about to preach and teach!! If you want to fight a cause, understand what you are fighting. First and foremost the Confederate Flag was never a national flag representing the South, it was a battle flag flown by several armies in Virginia. Even if it had been a national flag for the South, understand that the Civil War wasn't just over slavery, while it was the reason slavery ended, it was merely an excuse for the war. The North fought the war over money (the same reason we fight half the wars these days and excuse it by saying we're fighting for another cause. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion, because, and yes this is a true stereotype, us southerners don't like to be told what to do! Lol. The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that villify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels. To touch on another subject, many say that it's a symbol of hate because it was flown over slave ships, and that's false but guess what was? The American flag. Many also say it was the KKKs flag... Google KKK.... You will see them flying the American flag more so than the Confederate Flag.The US flag flew over a slave nation for over 85 years! I'm not saying this to down the American Flag because I love it just the same. I'm simply saying that, if the Confederate Flag should be removed, why not the American Flag?? The North tolerated slavery and acknowledged it as a Division Of Labor. The North made a vast fortune on slavery and it's commodities. It wasn't until the South decided to leave the Union that the North objected. The North knew it could not survive without the Southern money.... And did you know? At the time the War of 1861 -1865 officially commenced, the Southern States were actually in the process of freeing all slaves in the South. Russia had freed it's servants in 1859, and the South took great note of this. Had military intervention not been forced upon the South, a very different America would have been realized then as well as now.

Racism is being projected onto the Confederate Flag, which is in return, continuing the division among us. Just because one racist lunatic supported the confederate flag, doesn't mean every person who supports it is a racist.

The rebel flag to me means home. Southern pride. Wheat fields, sunflower fields, deer hunting, hard work, trucks, racing, family, and pride in where I'm from. Born and raised here and damn proud of it. Ignorance "flies" both ways. An item can not be racist, unless you are an easily offended person, or racist yourself.

Just my two cents!!
— with Amelia Thompson.

I think the biggest problem is the sheer number of Confederate flags. The battle flag is at the center of controversy, but I believe that most soldiers of the era took more pride in state or regimental flags. My direct ancestor enlisted in May 1861 and served until his death at Gettysburg. His four brothers also enlisted and were killed in the war. Census records indicate that none of them were slaveholders. Why did they fight and die? I really doubt that they fought for slavery, but we will never know. I could commission a replica of my ancestor's regimental flag or purchase a period state flag, but the battle flag honors the sacrifice of all of my relatives.

It's quite clear you don't want any "straight dope" on this issue; only a justification to support your already established agenda. Please be sure to apply the same said "logic" to arguments about the Stars and Stripes, as well as the flags of California and several other states, when that time comes (soon).

My family fought for VA when Lincoln invaded VA. I see the flag as a symbol of my family's sacrifice and standing up to a tyrannical federal government.

well Mike, your thread IS an attempt to troll.

I have mentioned before, that the various Flags of the Confederacy represent to me, the sacrifice my Great Grandfather and his family made, in an effort to support what they believed in.
He was not a slave owner, just a small farmer. He was not a General, an officer, a politician, or a policy maker. Just a dirt farmer, a Christian, and he fought for his people and his land.
It's my heritage. I support it.

It stands for whatever we want it to stand for. But mostly for me, it is a middle finger aimed at whomever thinks it is something for which I should be ashamed.

Just quoting this excerpt, but this whole post was a really good one. miles

Here is a question that is often overlooked.

Where in the Constitution does it say that a state may not, by a majority vote of its citizens, decide to secede from the United States and may/must be made to remain in the Union by the force of arms?

This whole flag flap and the faux righteous indignation is nothing but a political stunt to rally the liberal base and white guilt any opposing parties to conform to the left's political norms.

Barky,

If you are truly interested in the topic, I'll post below a good explaination I posted elsewhere. As for what Blacks think, I can say up until about 15 years ago, it was never a huge issue. They saw it as a redneck icon. They did'nt like rednecks by and large because rednecks didn't like them and vice versa. It wasn't until the race baiters made it a political issue did it suddenly become a "hate" thing. Before then, it was an irritant. Back in the day, Brothers had the Black Power soul fist in the air and rednecks had the Rebel flag. These days, everybody gets "offended" over anything they don't find flattering or agreeable.

Now, to answer your original question:

Here is the real reason they are after the flag. It represents heresy against the state religion. This is from the great Murray Rothbard more than twenty years ago:

The Union was taken, by its Northern worshipers, from a contractual institution that can either be cleaved to or scrapped, and turned into a divinized entity, which must be worshipped, and which must be permanent, unquestioned, all-powerful. There is no heresy greater, nor political theory more pernicious, than sacralizing the secular. But this monstrous process is precisely what happened when Abraham Lincoln and his northern colleagues made a god out of the Union. If the British forces fought for bad King George, the Union armies pillaged and murdered on behalf of this pagan idol, this “Union,” this Moloch that demanded terrible human sacrifice to sustain its power and its glory.

I see it this way. I can see why both sides feel the way they do. The so called "confederate battle flag" was co-opted by the Klan in the 1950's and 1960's during the civil rights era by people who were against integration. So I can understand why the blacks feel the way they do.

Us white crackers feel that the flag honors our ancestors and is a symbol of rebellion against tyranny. I understand that too, believe me because I feel that way. I have ancestors who served and died in the war. I believe I understand the politics and economics of the time at on a rudimentary level above and beyond what is taught in the politically correct schools today. In other words slavery was a big thing, but not the only thing.

I feel we are both right and both wrong. I believe the blacks and their white cohorts are wrong for wanting to destroy all vestiges of confederate history. It reminds me of how, when ISIS takes over an area in the middle east, they destroy ancient artifacts because they don't like them. Those on my side don't want to acknowledge that the blacks may have a point.

The white crackers who feel the way they do don't really know the history of the Civil war era. As I understand it, the so called "confederate flag" was one of many and is in reality the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, probably the most famous outfit of the war because it was General Lee's outfit. If I had to guess, the men of South Carolina did not fight under that flag but something else. I am not savvy about posting pictures but google "Orr's rifles South Carolina Flag" and you will see something they likely DID fight under. There are other flags from that era as well.

The "confederate flag" in South Carolina is flying not on the state house but on a confederate memorial on state grounds. Governor Haley, had she done her homework could have made this situation a whole lot better. She says she wants to take down "the flag". Okay, then what are you going to replace it with if anything? I say if she would offer to replace the "confederate flag" which is actually the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia with the Orr's rifles flag, an actual flag of South Carolina on the memorial she would look like Solomon. The blacks would get what they want but would not be allowed to run roughshod over "southern pride" and the men who fought for South Carolina in the war of northern aggression would be correctly honored which would make me happy, and likely others of like mind if explained properly.

That would be easy if it were true, but it's not. That is history revisionism at it's worst, and frankly at it's silliest. Every significant Confederate document include very prominent and specific language about slavery making it very plain and clear succession was primarily about slavery. Before re-writing history one must burn the books.

Given the majority of people in the south (that did the fighting) did not own slaves, what would you assume is the reason they fought?

and what were the "every significant confederate documents" you reference?

Who exactly attributed the "significant" moniker to these doucments?

I believe he is refering to the assorted states' ordinances of secession. For the most part.

What it means to you is your problem, not mine, and I don't GAF about any of your problems.

IIRC, it was only Va, Al, and Tx that mentioned "slaveholding" states in their respective Ordinances.

It also appeared to me that it was used by those respective states as a means of identifying the block of seceding states.

Keep in mind for those three that used the term, other states chose a simple, and probably much more appropriate use of their ordinance, e.g. NC:



Choosing not to identify any issues in their ordinance as the other did, nor choosing to outline any solidarity in their secession, just simply wanting to GTFO.

my read...

The flag is the white guys "N" word. Between whites, it has one meaning. Between blacks, another. The "meaning" of the flag was taken over by haters, and so its stuck there. Lots of ways to honor ones heritage, but a symbol thats been corrupted by hate is probably not the first choice.

Face it, those that worship it as heritage shoulda fought harder to dispel what ever "real meaning" it has/had.

Southern black Americans have heritage too and WE all live under ONE flag.

Most in the South did not need to own slaves to understand the repercussions of having Blacks free to roam the countryside let alone complete for jobs, property and eventually vote.

As a very young boy, i would hear stories from my grandmother about her great grandfather (my GGG Grandfather) and his brothers, whom she knew till he died in 1929 (she was 10). He fought for the CSA out of Tennessee and rode under Forrest. He was told he would receive 50$ whether the war lasted 5 months or 5 years, and obviously never saw a penny. every year we would drive up to Tennessee where we have a farm, we would pass many battlefields like kennesaw mountain, chickamauga, missionary ridge, atlanta, stones river, etc

I had family members imprisoned by union and killed by the union.

I would hear the stories about generals, outnumbered, outgunned, valor, bravery, overcoming odds etc and always feel a sense of pride that I had kin who took part in that. None of my kin who fought owned a plantation or slaves. Seeing the battle flag, which i think looks "cooler" than old glory, alaways filled me with a sense of pride of my heritage and where I came from. Never once was it a white supremacy issue, it was a "Hey thats part of who I am, who we were."

That flag is woven into the fabric of my youth...

My family is a member of the: First Families of Tennessee (FFT). Membership is open to anyone who can prove direct descent from a person or persons living in any part of what is now Tennessee before or by statehood in 1796.


MY GGG Grandfather and General Forrest

Well, it appears that in the span of the Revolution to the civil war, everyone would have you believe that the inspiration to fight for freedom from oppression was totally removed from our genes and that the entire civil war was fought over keeping negros in the outbuilding.

But I guess being able to vilify a flag is the first step towards vilifying other inanimate symbols of "hate".

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

Of course the Confederate Constitution and the Articles of Succession from all the seceding states, and primary among those the five states that included Declaration of Causes, in which slavery was the first item mentioned in most cases.

History has been effectively re-written many times throughout history, but in each case they removed all evidence to the contrary. The entire premise that slavery had little to do with the civil war is, on it's face, ludicrous. That these documents exist only attests to that obvious fact.

Was there ever any war that wasnt fought for freedom from oppression? The swastica is vilified, an rightfully so.

Are you comfortable saying the Vietnam War was fought to prevent the spread of communism? Or the invasion of Iraq to bring freedom to the populace? Wars are fought over dollars and cents regardless of what one person wrote on a piece of paper. This is not an attack on you, but a lack of faith in looking at who decided to write something down.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Japanese-American internment which happened in WWII. Our current flag allowed 127,000 Japanese-Americans to be stripped of their property and rights and placed in concentration camps. I guess we should changes this flag too. Right?

what did our current flag do presiding over the trail of tears and wounded knee, eradication of native americans from their land, and almost genocide

I suppose the spat with the limey's circa 1776 was really over Tea taxes?

Killed a lot of Indians too.

These weren't letters to home or something scribbled on a scrap of paper. These were official documents detailing the most important issue of that day, and likely written and re-written repeatedly with much input and discussion until they were exactly right for the situation.

My purpose in the post is not to make anyone feel bad about matters important to them, but to say, No!, it is not acceptable in light of the apparent facts to say the civil war was not about slavery.

I mentioned once before that much of the black angst towards whites hinges on the fact that they can't seem to find a word identifier for whites that really upsets them. Nothing really works! Think about it.

I known it sounds simple and childish. But there is a lot of fact in the statement.

It is a frequently repeated lie on this board by the Yankees, Scallywags, and generally uninformed that ALL the Confederate states seceded because of slavery. However, that is demonstrably untrue.

I give you the case of Arkansas. Arkansas, being a slave state, got caught up in the secession fever and had a convention to decide the issue in early 1861. Guess what happened? Though the arguments were passionate and their sympathies were certainly with the seven states who had already seceded, the delegates of Arkansas decided NOT to secede. They decided that the issues, including the question of slavery WERE NOT to the point that secession was necessary or desirable.

Then Ft. Sumter happened and Abraham Lincoln called for 75,000 troops to put down what he called an insurrection. He asked Arkansas for its levy. I give you Arkansas' response in its Ordinance of Secession:

Whereas, in addition to the well-founded causes of complaint set forth by this convention, in resolutions adopted on the 11th of March, A.D. 1861, against the sectional party now in power in Washington City, headed by Abraham Lincoln, he has, in the face of resolutions passed by this convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule, and large forces to accomplish this have by this same power been called out, and are now being marshaled to carry out this inhuman design; and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas:

Thus it is DEMONSTRABLY FALSE to assert that Arkansas seceded because of slavery. Arkansas seceded because it felt that Abraham Lincoln was wrong to try to force other states to submission by force of arms and that it would have no part of that.

The same could likewise be said of Tennessee, North Carolina, and Virginia...all of which did not secede until AFTER Ft. Sumter and AFTER Lincoln sent out the call for troops. Then and ONLY then did they join the Confederacy and align themselves with the other slaveholding states. For them, more than slavery, the issue was one of federal force and federal power. Did the president and the federal government have the right to bring the power of the federal government to bear on the individual states and to force them back into the union? For them, the answer was a resounding "no" and they threw their lots with the Confederacy.

Had Lincoln allowed the seven seceding states to go in peace. It is unlikely that Arkansas, Tennessee, Virginia, and North Carolina would have joined the Confederacy at that time.

If it helps the delicate sensibilities of the minority, I choose to be offended by the phrase "taxpayer".

They can call me that, and I will demonstrate being pissed off.

As to slavery, no one is saying that it was not a part of the reasoning about secession, to some a big part, to others a small part, but since the North was not trying to free the slaves at that time, it was mostly other things. The North wanted to limit new States from being slave states, thus building their power base. The North was in effect trying to make slaves out of the whole south by limiting their freedom, in several ways. miles

You mean it wasn't over oppression?

I agree and it's not just blacks. Women have their word(s), latino's have their's, etc. White American men, knowing both who and what they are, cannot be moved by a mere word, regardless how deprecating that word might be.

I'd like to have my word. Not to be offended by it, but to mock it.

I am having the same problem understanding what the big deal is. In my mind it is just taking pride in the part of the country where they live.

Here's the straight dope on the Confederate Flag issue and every other issue that the liberals howl about.

If you're a straight, white, conservative male, there's only one way you can make the liberals content.

Die.

So fuggum.

No it means I read too fast and I interpreted "wasnt" as "was" and thought you were being a cynical ass, so I responded in kind.

My apologies.

The Flag is just another liberal cause.If we get rid of the flag everything will get better.All more BS to give the HNIC more cover for all the BS he is pulling.He continues to agitate for more racial division which is to the benefit of the democratic party.With no racial division they are out of biz!!!

"Racist"

Imagine a white person approaching a random black person and calling them a "N". Now reverse the roles.


You have your word......

Nope. Just doesn't to it for me!!!

It means nothing. It's fabric.
The only importance it has its what the individual assigns to it.
So if your emotionally attached then you should offer the same level of respect to the person who is offended by it.
You didn't fight for the confederacy any more than a black man was a slave under it.

Then you must be racist.

I understand what you are saying. My point is that it only represents one point of view. Unfortunately for those of us who were not a part of it we must rely on what is left for us to read. We never really get the whole picture.

It represents the views of those 5 states who presented a list of causes for succession and then there is the Confederate Constitution, which would have been agreed upon by all states ratifying it. It would appear that one point of view you mention was chiefly and strongly held by all seceding states.

I never thought the picture was difficult to grasp, until some began the rewrite of history, making the picture ridiculous.

Shut up Sam, why is it that the same little girls show up in every post pointing their fingers sealing "troll"?

holy chit!!!!!

best post I have seen yet on the subject from multiple threads about it

I want to thank everyone for their input, those of us with no ties to the south or have never lived in the south, have no idea what it is really all about. For those in the south it is family and history, for a CA boy it is just another chapter in the history books.

One last question, I have heard on TV, those against the flag state that the flag was not raised in some southern states onto government grounds until opposition to 60's civil rights legislation manifested, is there truth to any of that?

One thing I have heard many say also, that people living in the south have been forced to live under this ugly symbolism, well, I find it hard to believe that southerners could not have decided for themselves via the ballot box to have the flag removed if the bulk of southerners were offended by it.

Thanks again.

I prefer bigot. Lots of white mofo's out there I just cant stand either.

Why complicate the issue with race? .

yes, there is truth to that. Specifically, the flag was raised by then Governor Fritz Hollings A DEMOCRAT, in 64 as a protest to the Civil Rights act and removed in 98 by a REPUBLICAN. Same for a couple of other states that I'm sure somebody will chime in with more facts.

Kind of like how I feel displaying the Gadsen in CA, just to piss liberals off, I suppose.

The Confederate flag is a non issue.

The issue is, a buncha damn social justice warriors pretending to be all butt hurt about yet *another* thing and the nutless wonders who allow themselves to be led around by the nose.

People are getting real tired of liberal agitators. They are intentionally destroying this country.

Good read by a Mormon fellow.

http://www.redgulls.com/2015/06/17/watching-the-decline-and-fall-of-america-live/

This is the militant PC view which merely adds the caveat that the person in power is automatically in the wrong, so in this case the white guy (GASP!) must set aside his preferences in favor of the victimized masses.

Remember when we as a culture could say "I may not agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Those days are gone.

"Identify" under some minority status and complain that you're offended. Ya don't even have to prove you actually ARE a minority!

Of course for Liberals that's par for the course; now we have so-called "conservatives" doing it.

Simply insane.

Right again..

I bet DOD is gonna eventually rename a chit load of army post nation wide also

bout laughed my ass off in the spring of 98 when I went to recruiting school at ft Jackson s.c.
bout every street is named after confederate generals on that post
and then they have storm Thurmond blvd I think

just about every gawt dammed remf mofo in the army goes to Jackson for basic training and most remfs are minorities to begin with

wonder how many of em even had a clue about the street names on that post

bwwhahahahahahahaaa!!!!

They way the libs are reacting you'd think someone had just said Merry Christmas.

Those familiar with the history, wasn't it true that after the war ended, slavery was abolished in the South but was allowed to carry on in some Northern states, do you know for how long that went on?

It's not about just the flag alone, either, but apparently anything honoring the Confederacy.

Panel that controls fate of Jefferson Davis statue in Kentucky Capitol to meet Thursday

Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2015/06/24/3915532_jack-conway-joins-republicans.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

UT President Speaks Out on Jefferson Davis Statue

http://www.twcnews.com/tx/austin/ne...peaks-out-on-jefferson-davis-statue.html

Say Goodbye To The Jefferson Davis Statue In Mid-City As Well

http://thehayride.com/2015/06/say-goodbye-to-the-jefferson-davis-statue-in-mid-city-as-well/


Confederate Jefferson Davis Monument Vandalized In Virginia With Phrase 'Black Lives Matter'
http://www.ibtimes.com/confederate-...rginia-phrase-black-lives-matter-1983665

well sissy, YOU are the one that brought the 'trolling' thing to the table.

Public cemetery monuments will be next.

imagine everyone's surprise when the confederate symbols of hate are gone, and people are still pissed off at each other.

Wonder what will be next?

look for the public cemeteries to be first to ban the Flag. Next will come the forced removal of the plaques and stones.
That is going to cause some conflict

People.

EXACTLY!

There is an entire cemetery of confederate veteransand widows in downtown Austin Texas. Including the grave of General A. S. Johnston. Along with heros of San Jacinto, WWI, WWII, and other dignitaries.
Place is called the Texas State Cemetery. Wonder what will happen there?

Well if you'll take note for just a minute Sam, the conversation is going nicely with the exception of your usual negativity. Get some sun if the discussion is bothering you friend.

Gotta love a valid point!

Keeper!

the flag was raised in the 60's also because it was a centennial celebration of the CSA....

Here is a non-revisionist look at Honest Abe, the great Emancipator LOL

I suggest you read it Barkoff

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

Only if for a same-sex wedding.

lincoln didnt free any slaves until 1863, that being said none were set free just because he "freed" them...he was on record stating he wouldve not freed any slaves if it wouldve ended the war

Rand Paul weighs in on Confederate flag: It’s a symbol of slavery

Republican Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul on Tuesday praised South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley’s call to remove the Confederate flag from state capitol grounds, making him the final major GOP contender to weigh in on the issue.

“I think the flag is inescapably a symbol of human bondage and slavery — and particularly when people use it obviously for murder and to justify hatred so vicious that you would kill somebody — I think that that symbolism needs to end, and I think South Carolina is doing the right thing,” Paul told radio station WKRO.

Paul had kept quiet on the topic in the days following the massacre at Charleston’s Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, a historic black house of worship, that left nine people dead. A spokesman for the senator told the Washington Post on Monday that he was “out of pocket” and not available for comment.

“There have been people who have used [the flag] for Southern pride and heritage and all of that, but really … to every African-American in the country it’s a symbolism of slavery to them,” Paul said on WKRO. “And now it’s a symbol of murder for this young man, and so I think it’s time to put it in a museum.”

While the other major candidates weighed in before Paul via statements and interviews, they carefully avoided taking a substantive position on the issue until Haley joined a bipartisan group of top state officials on Monday in calling on the legislature to take down the flag. Haley’s move, which provided political cover for candidates wary of upsetting voters in the early primary state, garnered immediate praise former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, and former Texas Gov. Rick Perry.

Paul’s absence from the debate was especially glaring given his unusual role in the party on matters of race. The senator has called on his party to aggressively court African-American votes and has put in major work on issues like criminal justice reform, which civil rights groups have made a top priority in recent years.

There’s also an uncomfortable history for Paul, however: He gained national attention criticizing the 1964 Civil Rights Act during his 2010 Senate run (he later indicated his support for the law), and co-wrote a book with a radio shock jock, Jack Hunter— who dubbed himself the “Southern Avenger” and wore a Confederate flag mask. Paul also notably supported the presidential campaigns of his father, former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Tex.), who has fiercely criticized Abraham Lincoln and published years of racially inflammatory newsletters.

Another sign of the issues this country is having, is that a LONG standing statue, of a person is debated as to if it should remain, rather than the fact that some criminal vandalized it by painting it.
I"m willing to bet that IF they were looking for the criminal, and thats a HUGE if, they certainly would pour praise upon them, if found, rather than issuing a summons/citation.

wonder what american indians think of old glory

wounded knee



OLD GLORY

You gotta give Ms.Haley credit...she has balls to think that the 80% of voters who want the flag to stay love her enough to always vote for her.

hope she is shown the door for being gutless

To me it's just bit of history and a little bit or being proud of one's rebel roots. Myself, born in Tenn to Penn parents.

Wonder if we would have had a similar reaction if our little Carolina shooter was sitting there with a cross in his photo?

Seems we've had some recent mentions of issues if students display the American flag when there are Hispanics about. Guess it OK to be proud of anything except being an American.

I'm beginning to think I've lived through the best of times.

The minority now rules.

So I guess Tim Scott has to go too?

any knee jerk reaction to pacify a politically correct charged movement is grounds for dismissal, we need people with a backbone not spineless panderers

Its the same for both sides. A "R" is nothing more than a "D" with a kickstand.

I'm not a Southerner so don't have any personal stock in the flag as part of my heritage. However, a rather wise statesman from across the pond had this to say. “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Sir Winston Churchill

In that context I'm fully in support of our Southern brothers and sisters keeping their heritage alive.

For those who say whats the big deal, lets just put the stars and bars away and move on you miss the big point. If we allow history to be washed of uncomfortable truths, then we will fail to learn the important lessons of the past. All those lives lost will have been lost in vain if we as a nation fail to address the bad and pain in the past just as much as the good.

We have a federal government willing and capable of running roughshod over this nation. How convenient would it be to remove any trace of history of Americans rising up against a federal tyranical government?

First someone has to rise up, and in these days of easy living, I don't see that happening.

All nations rose from tyranny at one point or another, including this one.

I was out tearing down the remainder of an old barn on the place running all of the current events thru my head when I remembered what my youngest son told me when he was an undergrad at Univ of Texas. He said in his American History since 1860 class, the prof told them all on the very first day of class that the ACW was strictly about slavery. Bottom line. No room for discussion. And he would fail, right then, any student who even tried to say or engage in conversation otherwise.

It is what it is, a piece of history of what was once the greatest nation on earth. Some think it represents oppression of their race rather than the defeated. They choose to reject their freedom and whine of grievances never experienced. Since they have rejected the American Dream I suggest they return to their homeland and try to reboot.

Sako75,
What outfit was your GGG Grandfather in? My GGGrandfather was in "E" Company 12th Tennessee Cavalry and he rode with Forrest. He was 40 years old when the war began and a Methodist preacher. I still have his Bible.

gotta just love 'academic freedom', and tenure.

When I was a kid, we had to take Virginia History in school...and it was written and taught with a perspective from Virginia, regarding the Civil War Era....

Virginia almost didn't secede from the USA, as the majority of slave owners were from the SE Part of the State...however when Union Troops invaded what is now Arlington County, this quickly reversed the opinion of many who did not want to secede.

On the other side, one can see how the Federals did not want across the Potomac to be a point that Southern Confederates could easily attack the Federal Capitol.. so the invasion of Arlington County was a safety measure to prevent that.

But stories quickly spread on how the local population were treated in Arlington County, and Fairfax County was next to be invaded.

It is here where Virginia Army Militia Units gathered at Bull Run, Manassas in Prince William County, to halt any more Northern Incursion into Virginia. Thru the war there were Skirmishes in Fairfax County, but the nasty stuff was in Prince William County as the closest to DC...

NOT all counties of Virginia decided to support the succession from the USA... most of the Western Counties, HAD NO SLAVES, nor did they want to fight to defend slavery. So those counties 'temporarily' refused to support the succession, yet still claimed to be part of Virginia...they thought the war would be over quickly.. but it wasn't. Those western Virginia Counties, eventually set themselves up as a Separate State on June 20, 1863... first named Kanawha After the River that runs thru the central part of the state. Most people didn't pronounce it correctly from elsewhere, so the state's name was changed to what it is called nowadays.... WEST Virginia.

mine was born in 1835 and died in 1929...he joined Dr. Buchanan's cavalry near Nashville ... our family was one of the first in what became davidson county

this is the one:

11th Battalion, Tennessee Cavalry (Gordon's)
This regiment also called the 10th was organized in January, 1862. Later the battalion merged into the 6th Tennessee Cavalry Regiment.
Companies in this Regiment with the Counties of Origin
Men often enlisted in a company recruited in the counties where they lived though not always. After many battles, companies might be combined because so many men were killed or wounded. However if you are unsure which company your ancestor was in, try the company recruited in his county first.

Company A - Captain James T. Wheeler - Men from Giles County.
Company B - Captain William W. Gordon (to lieutenant colonel), W.H. Abernathy - Men from Giles County.
Company C - Captain Edward E. Buchanan - "The Barron Guards" - Men from Davidson County.
Company D - Captain Edward L. Ensley - Men from Davidson County.
Company E - Captain William W. Roundtree - Men from Davidson County.
Company F - Captain Martin B. Foutch - Men from DeKalb County and Smith County.

[b][color:#3333FF]Link..![/color][/b]


2012



Today...

Damn, I hope they were wrong, but it's starting to look like the issue is still not settled 200 years later. At this point if the more open minded blacks do not step forward and put a stop to all the talk of race war and white terrorism, I'm only seeing the situation festering. Decades of progress wiped out in six years.

To me the Stars and Bars was always about Southern Pride.
This flag should be flown proudly in public places down South!
To me it is a First Amendment issue especially for Southerners.... and politicians be damned!
BTW... Thank You for your family's bravery and service !

That is neat! My ancestor was from Humphreys County.

One of your better posts in a long time.

If that be the case, would it have not been wise to have a Constitutional Convention to outlaw slavery before going to war to "free the slaves"? A free the slave amendment would have made you blue bellies look alot better in light of your War to Aggress the South, especially when there was no law to prohibit slavery at the time..

And this attitude from Professors is why the younger generation is not well educated, even though they spend more time in school that ever before. Anybody that close minded should not be teaching. miles

What many seem to ignore is the fact that before the war started, Lincoln offered the proposed original 13th Amendment which would have made slavery protected forever in the U.S. if the then seceded 7 states would return to the union. Needless to say this was rejected by all as the South was done with the Yankee government and wanted to leave. So yeah, the right of slave ownership was certainly an issue, but obviously the South was wanting no more to do with the Federal government. Lincoln freely admitted to newspaperman Horace Greeley that the Federal government could not afford to let the South go as they would loose too much tax revenue. That is documented fact. Most Southern leaders knew that slavery was going away, but felt it was their problem to deal with and not to be dictated by northern abolitionists who were promoting mass violent slave uprisings a la John Brown, arguably our first domestic terrorist. Ironically, the later current 13th Amendment which ended slavery, did not go into effect until December of 1865, some seven months after the last Confederate army surrendered. Slavery was still legally practiced and enforced by Federal law in the non-seceded border slave states until then. Two noted slave owners that kept their slaves until then were Federal General Grant and Abe Lincoln's wife. So, to get a good understanding about this, it might behoove one to look at all the facts and perspectives before passing judgment.

Here here
excellent factual history
these days its revivionist history

The use by the army of NOVA and KKK had different meanings. Kinda like the them song to the Flintstones "you'lll have a gay old time"

I have never heard that, you have any read on it?
Are you referring to the Corwin Amendment?

Yes, the Corwin Amendment. Google it.