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From the Sacramento Bee:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article25770799.html

Happened Sunday Morning...

Heavy Rains caused a flashflood to come thru a camp at 4:30 AM.

4 Scouts were carried a mile from their camp....3 were found alive, and one sadly was found dead. The article didn't list the cause of his death, whether by drowning or from being hurt from impacting an obstacle or debris.

I am sure that the group never knew it was coming, especially at 4AM....those of us at Ed's East Texas Campfire Get2Gether, can relate to harsh weather materializing out of nowhere...

Prayers and condolences for the family of the deceased 13 year old.

Very sorry to hear of the loss of one so young. May God bless and keep his friends and family.
Sorry to hear of such a young boy's death.
If grown men knew of rain storms in nearby mountains and left kids camped near a draw or creek they are guilty of gross stupidity if not negligence. Unfortunately, too many today dont believe stuff happens unless they have seen it before. Im figuring this should not have happened with proper supervision.

Originally Posted by eyeball
If grown men knew of rain storms in nearby mountains and left kids camped near a draw or creek they are guilty of gross stupidity if not negligence. Unfortunately, too many today dont believe stuff happens unless they have seen it before. Im figuring this should not have happened with proper supervision.



"Be Prepared". Except when it really matters.
Such a horrible tragedy. All three of my children went to Philmont. Prayers offered up for the family.
Prayers sent for all involved.
Camped 20' above the creek - flood waters crested 23' above normal. That scenario would work 99.99% of the time. STUFF does happen.
I would have felt safe there, and have spent my life in NE NM, and in similar terrain.

People don't realize how quickly it floods in the desert.


http://www.abqjournal.com/605774/news/flood-that-hit-boy-scouts-may-have-reached-20-feet.html

A rush of water at least 20 feet high raged down a narrow canyon in the pre-dawn hours Saturday, taking with it four young Boy Scouts who had just begun a 12-day journey through the rugged northeastern New Mexico backcountry.

Three of the boys, between the ages of 14 and 17, were able to grab solid ground or objects and crawl to safety, according to New Mexico State Police. One boy, however, was found dead about a mile downstream.

Officials from state police and Philmont Scout Ranch – which hosted the outing for the troop and thousands of other Scouts throughout the 200-square-mile ranch – declined to identify the boy or provide any other information about his troop. They said they are waiting until his family is notified.

The Scouts set up camp about 15 miles from base camp and had just begun a journey of between 60 and 100 miles. The troop signed up for the 12-day hike two years earlier, said ranch comptroller Steve Nelson, and they had been preparing ever since. He would not say whether the troop was from New Mexico or elsewhere, but troops from all over the country use the ranch.

Beginning around 3 a.m. Saturday, multiple storms moved quickly through areas of Colfax County where the ranch is located, according to the National Weather Service.

Camp officials and meteorologists said that at least two inches fell in a short amount of time, and nearby state Highway 64 was closed due to mud slides, debris on the roadway and flooded bridges, they said.

New Mexico State Police spokesman Sgt. Chad Pierce said the troop set up camp on an embankment about 20 feet above a small creek in North Ponil Canyon. The flash flooding in the area sent so much water, so fast, that Pierce said it’s possible water rose higher than 20 feet above where it normally runs. He estimated the creek is normally about 3 feet wide and 1 foot deep.

The four boys were swept away around 4:30 a.m., he said, and state police were contacted around 9:35 a.m.

They found the boy’s body around 11 a.m., about one mile downstream from the campsite, state police said.

Pierce said the flood washed out the entire camp, but only the four boys were swept away. The troop consisted of eight Scouts, one adult Scout ranger and three adult crew leaders.

“More than anything, it was just good fortune is what saved most of them, I believe,” Pierce said. “It just went through, and they grabbed on to whatever they could.”

The ranch put out a statement lamenting the boy’s death and the trauma for his peers.

“This is a very difficult time for our entire Scouting family,” the ranch said in a statement. “Our thoughts and prayers are with the family and we are supporting them in any way that we can.”

Pierce said state police investigators are working to find as much information about the tragedy as possible and will provide it to ranch officials “to better prepare them should something like this happen again.”

Nelson said about 5,000 Scouts are roaming the mountains near the ranch at any given time, hiking or backpacking in a number of different programs and routes. He said he has been on the phone constantly since Saturday, fielding numerous calls from parents and others concerned about their children.

A Facebook post from the ranch announcing the boy’s death and expressing condolences has more than 1,000 comments from parents of Scouts describing their or their sons’ experiences at the ranch and expressing condolences to the boy’s parents.

“Prayers to the family and all at Philmont. This is very hard to read because my son and 35 others from our troop are somewhere on the trails of Philmont, right now. Please continue to keep them safe,” Elizabeth Engle DeYong said in a comment on Facebook. She later added, “Our crews are only on day 2 of their trek. It will be a long wait before we hear anything. Prayers to all your scouts.”

Nelson said ranch officials had to make a number of small changes to routes for other troops to prevent them from crossing streams or using washed-out roadways. He said the troop whose Scout was killed is safely back at base camp, and he does not recall any other incident like this one in his eight years at the ranch.

The 136,000-acre ranch, located near Cimarron, hosts around 21,000 people every summer. The camp has experienced bear attacks.

Once Scouts complete the backpacking trip, they receive the Philmont arrowhead, which is a patch for their jackets, Nelson said.

Calvin Gray, a committee member for a central-Texas-based troop, said Scouts from his area were still on their adventure elsewhere in the ranch. He said Scout leaders across the country know Philmont as one of the best sites for these excursions because of the number of different programs available for Scouts.

He said troops are given flood training before they begin their hike and receive calls from staff members if a flood is expected in their area.

He had high praise for the ranch staff .

“All over the country, there’s a huge interest in Philmont. It’s very popular,” he said, adding that the ranch is a “very well run, very efficient operation.” He said he has no concerns about sending troops there again.
Originally Posted by Whiptail

People don't realize how quickly it floods in the desert.


Philmont is definitively NOT desert - foothills to high Rockie Mtns.
However, flash floods do occur in the desert, frequently.
Prayer, and condolences from SE Az.

Lord take the lost lad into your loving arms. Support and encourage the survivors, bless then with the understanding that the natural world has NEVER been "safe" and that the risks inherent in scouting are part of it's abiding grace and mystery.

GTC
Originally Posted by Fireball2
Originally Posted by eyeball
If grown men knew of rain storms in nearby mountains and left kids camped near a draw or creek they are guilty of gross stupidity if not negligence. Unfortunately, too many today dont believe stuff happens unless they have seen it before. Im figuring this should not have happened with proper supervision.



"Be Prepared". Except when it really matters.


You 2 are really something.

GTC
Greg - forgive them - for they've never been in that country.
Very sad. Couldn't imagine the pain of losing my child. Prayers out for him and his family
Two of my sons leave for Philmont in about 3 weeks. This harsh reality is in the fore front of all who are attending.
Sorry to hear about that. I did the 50-some odd mile hike when I was a scout. Some of the best times!

I wonder if that's ever happened before. I'd think not.

Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Prayer, and condolences from SE Az.

Lord take the lost lad into your loving arms. Support and encourage the survivors, bless then with the understanding that the natural world has NEVER been "safe" and that the risks inherent in scouting are part of it's abiding grace and mystery.

GTC


I will second this...prayers sent.
That is really sad. I am sure the leaders of that troop are beating themselves up over even though they probably thought they were safe in their campsite.
There have also been two bear attacks at Philmont Scout Ranch this year.
Wow

That is disturbing. Thoughts and prayers to scout's loved ones .

Spent afew years there camping and hiking in scouts. I hope there is a lesson protocol to be learned so it does not happen again
My boy scout troop had a crew hiking Philmont last week....all are well. There are 1-2 deaths at Philmont every summer mostly adults from heart attacks.
When I did the Philmont adventure back in the 60s it was emphasized about staying out of the gullies and arroyos because of flash floods. I've even seen this safety guide line in the Sunday cartoon 'Mark Trail' Somebody was not paying attention.
May the lord help the family.

Jim
Prayers to the family and friends.
Prayers for the lost Scout and his family. My oldest boy heads there in four weeks. So, this really hits home. From what I've heard, this crew was at a staffed camp with three adults and a Ranger when they got hit with 9"+ of rain in less than 1.5 hours. When you head outdoors, it's hard to prepare for every eventuality. Anyone who thinks they can hasn't spent enough time outdoors.
Years ago when my boys where in the Scouts, I became a Scoutmaster.
When they grew up and left, so did I. I always wondered about lawsuits and did not like the vague and hazy answers I got when I asked.
I once grabbed a little guy's shirt collar just as he was sliding over the edge of a cliff. He was hunched over and frozen in fear, doing nothing to stop his slide. Gives you something to think about.
Originally Posted by DoubleH
Prayers for the lost Scout and his family. My oldest boy heads there in four weeks. So, this really hits home. From what I've heard, this crew was at a staffed camp with three adults and a Ranger when they got hit with 9"+ of rain in less than 1.5 hours. When you head outdoors, it's hard to prepare for every eventuality. Anyone who thinks they can hasn't spent enough time outdoors.


Amen,

Mother Nature gives, and she also takes away.

Greg
I'm gonna give props to ANYONE who takes parties of youths out into the woods nowadays. So many things that can happen and so much liability you take on. And I deal with high school kids, thirteen year olds are a whole 'nother order of magnitude.

The gist I'm getting is that this was on the scale of a freak accident, so unusually high was that flood. I feel for the bereaved family, but just as much for the adults in charge frown

Birdwatcher
My role has been to supervise about 90-mile white water rafting trips. Early on the boys will toe the line. With a little time and experience behind them, however, they want to start testing the waters. The biggest hassle though is controlling the accompanying adults that egg them on. Last trip was the first time we ever flipped a raft when against orders a group ventured ahead. Fortunately a sprained wrist was the only injury.

A lifetime experience for most of the kids as they'll never repeat it as adults. At my age though, I'm having second thoughts about taking on those risks and will likely call it quits.

I can not imagine the feelings one endures at the loss of a child.
DoubleH;
Good morning to you sir, I trust this finds you and yours well.

I wanted to say I agree with your post in that my thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends left behind.

As a fellow father it's tough to read about events such as this and I can scarcely imagine the burden on the boys' parents and leaders now.

I'm trusting that your son has a grand time however and will have experiences that will make for a lifetime of wonderful memories for him.

Dwayne
Thanks, Dwayne. My only regret is that after doing all the work of planning this for his Troop work is preventing me from tagging along...

Originally Posted by BC30cal
DoubleH;
Good morning to you sir, I trust this finds you and yours well.

I wanted to say I agree with your post in that my thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends left behind.

As a fellow father it's tough to read about events such as this and I can scarcely imagine the burden on the boys' parents and leaders now.

I'm trusting that your son has a grand time however and will have experiences that will make for a lifetime of wonderful memories for him.

Dwayne
This boy was lost due to an act of God, nothing else.

Just wait, this evening will bring out the liberal blissninnies on the MSM braying about shutting down scout camps.
Damn right, they'd be SO very much safer in those parades out in SanFranFreako, wouldn't they ?
Originally Posted by mark shubert
Greg - forgive them - for they've never been in that country.


I archery hunted the adjoining ranch for elk which abuts the west side of the Philmont.
Originally Posted by eyeball
Originally Posted by mark shubert
Greg - forgive them - for they've never been in that country.


I archery hunted the adjoining ranch for elk which abuts the west side of the Philmont.


Well, THAT being the case, you just better haul ass up there with tar and feathers and a rope,.....and go after those event coordinators, hadn't you.

....in a word,.....Pitiful

GTC
Hey, what a great idea. Maybe I'll do that in a few years.
So Gregg, you disagree with my assertion that grown scout leaders and instructors should be held responsible if they were aware of nearby rainstorms and left kids to sleep by a creek or in the bottom of a canyon?

I'm sure if it it had been your son you'd be satisfied with saying, "Well, chitt happens".
I've done several treks through Philmont, as have my father and brother. We've also spent a lot of time camping in and around that area. It can be a dangerous place, but I can see how something like this could happen. Kids and adults from all over the world go out there to hike. Once the guide leaves you're on your own. Judgement calls about where to walk, how close to an edge to get, where to sleep, etc. are different among people. This is a very unfortunate case, but I don't know that negligence is the proper term.
Originally Posted by eyeball
So Gregg, you disagree with my assertion that grown scout leaders and instructors should be held responsible if they were aware of nearby rainstorms and left kids to sleep by a creek or in the bottom of a canyon?

I'm sure if it it had been your son you'd be satisfied with saying, "Well, chitt happens".


Don't put words in my mouth, Mister.

You can barely formulate coherent or intelligent words of your own.

...and lets PARK the vituperation and show a little respect for the solemn nature of this particular thread, shall we ?

Apologies to all and sundry to all for my losing it with this mouthy jackwagon.

GTC

GTC
From reading through the thread, it appears there was also a "Ranger" on hand?

Presumably a regular employee with experience in the area?

Some questions are, did that nine inches of rain in two hours fall down upon THEM? If not did they have any way of suspecting rains of that magnitude were occurring?.

Nine inches of rain in two hours is a LOT, I'm not sure I myself have ever witnessed that much in that short a period of time, and I've been in East and Central Texas thirty years.

Birdwatcher

The three weeks I spent at Philmont at age 14 were one of the defining events of my life. We were out of touch with anyone (no cell phones in those days) for several days straight, living off of what we carried on our backs. I don't think any of us city kids could ever have a finer adventure, or become a finer young man as a result. It saddens me that someone else could meet death in such a manner in such an otherwise beautiful place, a place that embodies all that is good about the Great West.
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
From reading through the thread, it appears there was also a "Ranger" on hand?

Quote
Presumably a regular employee with experience in the area?


Some questions are, did that nine inches of rain in two hours fall down upon THEM? If not did they have any way of suspecting rains of that magnitude were occurring?.

Nine inches of rain in two hours is a LOT, I'm not sure I myself have ever witnessed that much in that short a period of time, and I've been in East and Central Texas thirty years.

Birdwatcher




Quote
Presumably a regular employee with experience in the area?


Like Mark just said, you'd have to know the place.

The fact that the common (American) term FLASH FLOOD is in play would indicate that the actual rainfall took place up slope.

"Presume" away,....I'm outta' here, and apologies again for disrupting what should have a certain degree of patient and appropriate reverence / solemnity.

GTC
Quote
"Presume" away,....I'm outta' here, and apologies again for disrupting what should have a certain degree of patient and appropriate reverence / solemnity.


Greg, my point was that if even an experienced local was on hand and the campsite was deemed safe, this tragic flood musta truly been a freak occurrence.
It's been 24 years since the last of my 3 trips to Philmont but I believe the Ponil Canyon area is used as starting camps. A Ranger is with each crew for 3 days. Rangers are summer staff members but are experienced Scouts and have usually worked at Philmont in some other capacity. Plus they get training.

The area gets a lot of use each day, campsites are pretty much established. So there has probably been thousands of people in that campsite over the years without incident.

Freak storm, freak accident. No way to prepare.

Dale
Originally Posted by CrimsonTide
Very sorry to hear of the loss of one so young. May God bless and keep his friends and family.


Well said.

I am very sorry to hear of the young Scout's tragic death. It sounds like such a freak accident and given that the violent thunderstorm occurred miles away in the mountains in the middle of the night, no one is to blame.

I attended Philmont in 1950, along with my older brother. Believe me, things were much more primitive there then, than today. I do remember that with distant mountains, a rain storm there might never have been known to us.... until the small creeks suddenly rose dangerously.

My condolences to the Scout's family.

L.W. (Eagle Scout, 1952.)
If no one noticed it in the article.... the flash flood came thru camp at 4:30 AM.....

They were 20 feet or so above the normal stream bed, but the flash flood supposedly was 23 feet above the stream beds normal flow....

Just like those of us that were at Ed's East Texas Campfire Get2Gether, on Friday night, we got hit instantly by a tornado literally right above us, and it set down on the ground about 250 yds or so from where we all were outside by Ed's House...

I myself had a near miss of a tree trunk falling on me, by inches... if I would have been on step to my right, It would have taken me out, and probably killed me instantly...that was a sobering experience, let me tell ya...

I am sure there boys were huddled in their tents and trying to get some sleep with all the rain, with NO CLUE that a flash flood could happen... I am sure even the camp staff with them had no clue.... first thing they knew it was on them...

that was what happened to us at Ed's Place...wham, it was there, in all its fury...
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Originally Posted by eyeball
So Gregg, you disagree with my assertion that grown scout leaders and instructors should be held responsible if they were aware of nearby rainstorms and left kids to sleep by a creek or in the bottom of a canyon?

I'm sure if it it had been your son you'd be satisfied with saying, "Well, chitt happens".


Don't put words in my mouth, Mister.

You can barely formulate coherent or intelligent words of your own.

...and lets PARK the vituperation and show a little respect for the solemn nature of this particular thread, shall we ?

Apologies to all and sundry to all for my losing it with this mouthy jackwagon.

GT

GTC


I submit that you attacked me with vituperation initially, because your reduced IQ percieved from my post i did not properly express my sorrow and condolences over the situation.

Well mister, stick your vituperation where the sun dont shine and forget having the idea your IQ can guess the amount of sorrow in my mind.
I'm sorry eyeball, but hunting the next door ranch isn't the same as being there. Having been raised in the area, and hunting the ES Barker area, some of them canyons are so deep you can barely see the top of one close ridge, much less several miles away.
It is a tragedy to lose someone so young to a freak accident like this. Maybe you should keep opinions to a minimum when you have no idea of the exact circumstances or events. Try being more compassionate and less judgemental. I hate to disagree with you, but in this area the storms can move very fast and be very violent. And spending a hunting season or two does not really define a worthwhile knowledge of the area.

I lost my nephew almost 3 years ago in a car accident. It's easy to blame and question when someone is lost. As close as we were, there's not a day that goes by that I don't think of him and the times that I shared while either coaching him on the fields, or just spending time with him fishing.

Prayers go out to everyone involved and hurting now and forever more.
Originally Posted by eyeball
So Gregg, you disagree with my assertion that grown scout leaders and instructors should be held responsible if they were aware of nearby rainstorms and left kids to sleep by a creek or in the bottom of a canyon?

I'm sure if it it had been your son you'd be satisfied with saying, "Well, chitt happens".


I know a bit about that country, and both of my sons have worked multiple summers at Philmont. The reality is that in a canyon like Ponil, the weather that causes the flood need not be anywhere nearby, but can be ten miles or more from the flood site, totally invisible from inside the canyon. From what I know about this incident, the boys were camped in an established campsite, some 20 feet or more above the level of the canyon floor. That site had always been safe before. Professional staff out there take great care to put campsites in safe locations, keeping in mind the environmental conditions and the lack of familiarity of the visiting scouts and leaders from across the country.

It's awfully easy for someone who wasn't there to sit back and do the Monday morning quarterbacking on something like this. You can scream for accountability and the pound of flesh all you want to, but none of that will bring back that young man. It truly was a fluke of nature.

We all feel terribly for family and the troop or crew.
Quote
Well mister, stick your vituperation where the sun dont shine and forget having the idea your IQ can guess the amount of sorrow schitt in my mind.


fixed,.... you fellows ignore this creep's disrespectful, and interminable ranting.

GTC
Originally Posted by bearbacker
..... From what I know about this incident, the boys were camped in an established campsite, some 20 feet or more above the level of the canyon floor. That site had always been safe before. Professional staff out there take great care to put campsites in safe locations, keeping in mind the environmental conditions and the lack of familiarity of the visiting scouts and leaders from across the country.

..... It truly was a fluke of nature.


I know people who stayed at that campsite and said the same thing. It had been an active site for years & years.
Why do some people always want to assign blame for an unfortunate accident that they have no facts about?
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