Friends, as most folks know, our Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Western Montana fire crews are being tested to the very limits this year. We literally have forest fires everywhere.
One of the most serious fires is up in the beautiful Lake Chelan are of central Washington.
This amazing photo appeared on the 'net this morning and it was taken in the Chelan area.
It's almost impossible to comprehend the skill of the pilot who dumps fire retardant while clipping sagebrush with both wings of his 727.
I remember the first time I flew on the then brand-new 727.
I was flying to Montana and was going to be hunting elk and deer for about ten days.
Little did I know that the takeoff of the new wunderkind 727 would be almost vertical. It was incredible, just incredible.
A pilot friend of mine told me later that the tail engine occasionally flamed-out when 727s took off at such an abrupt attitude. And, he said that the FAA then required a more gradual take-off angle.
Business Associate took a flight from Spokane to Seattle and said, looking out the window, it seemed Washington State was covered with nothing but smoke all the way to the Cascades coming into Seattle...
blue sky above and looking like nothing but cloud below..
I remember the first time I flew on the then brand-new 727.
I was flying to Montana and was going to be hunting elk and deer for about ten days.
Little did I know that the takeoff of the new wunderkind 727 would be almost vertical. It was incredible, just incredible.
A pilot friend of mine told me later that the tail engine occasionally flamed-out when 727s took off at such an abrupt attitude. And, he said that the FAA then required a more gradual take-off angle.
Still, it was FUNNNNNN!!!
Steve
The 727 was a hot rod, made back when speed and time mattered and jet fuel was cheap.
I loved to travel in the L10/11. Head room, cabin pressure was consistent and smooth. Miss tha plane. Pilots miss it too. Fun to fly I hear.
This last weekend was really, really smokey here in Milwaukie (OR). We had forest fire sunrises and forest fire sunsets both days ... it was like everything in our world was a weird orange color.
Several of our neighbors are elderly (older than us @72 ) and they suffered greatly from the air quality.
Been pretty hazy here in Alberta for the last few days,due to the smoke from the fires. Usually I can see the mountains from the high ground on my way to work, can't see the other side of the city at present, downtown is foggy looking due to the smoke, even with some wind. Been an odd year around here.
There was a really cool picture of them dropping fire retardant in Kamiah, ID. I'll see if I can find it. Those are BIG planes, flying heavily loaded and LOW in some rough country.
Firefighters from OZ (Australia and New Zealand) landed in Boise yesterday - what an amazing community (wildland fire)!!
We all need and are praying for rain - as well as those on the front line and supporting all their efforts.
We live between the Stouts Creek fire and the Cable Crossing fire and it has been smokey since the beginning of the month. Between the smoke and the incredibly dry conditions we are getting cabin fever. When the Stouts Creek fire blew up from 300 acres to 6000 acres in 4 hours we were incredibly lucky. If it had burned north, instead of south, we would have been burned over.
I did hear Washington governor Inslee blaming the fires on global warming. It caused me to wonder how much CO2 has been produced by the millions of acres that are burning.
I did hear Washington governor Inslee blaming the fires on global warming. It caused me to wonder how much CO2 has been produced by the millions of acres that are burning.
That's friggin hilarious - dumbass libtards. It's like they have a playbook and they look up the situation and find the corresponding response.
>>>>Forest Fire...... = oh, Global Warming!
of course, their playbook has a thousand situations with the same 4 or 5 responses.
Friends, as most folks know, our Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Western Montana fire crews are being tested to the very limits this year. We literally have forest fires everywhere.
One of the most serious fires is up in the beautiful Lake Chelan are of central Washington.
This amazing photo appeared on the 'net this morning and it was taken in the Chelan area.
It's almost impossible to comprehend the skill of the pilot who dumps fire retardant while clipping sagebrush with both wings of his 727.
In-bloody-credible!!!
Blessings,
Steve
Great photo Steve. I watched that plane or one very similar to it last year about 8 miles from our place. The pilots that fly those things are amazing.
A friend of mine fighting that Okanogan Complex fire texted that some folks believe these fires will be fought into November possibly until Thanksgiving. With only 10% of the perimeter contained, on a fire over 250,000 acres and no rain in sight, it is a very discouraging outlook.
Bless the brave firefighters for fighting such terrible odds.
Very amazing photo. Thankfully, there are people who are willing to do such jobs. There are many ways to put one's life on the line for the good of others without facing bullets.
This last weekend was really, really smokey here in Milwaukie (OR). We had forest fire sunrises and forest fire sunsets both days ... it was like everything in our world was a weird orange color.
Several of our neighbors are elderly (older than us @72 ) and they suffered greatly from the air quality.
I'm praying for RAIN. We absolutely need it.
Steve
It looks like our prayers are about to get answered starting Friday and lasting through the weekend. I use Weather Bomb on my phone and it is usually accurate. Shows we will be fitting some decient rain here and in Central OR and WA.
Very amazing photo. Thankfully, there are people who are willing to do such jobs. There are many ways to put one's life on the line for the good of others without facing bullets.
Nature evolved with constant fires that kept the underbrush down so natural fires usually stayed down low and didn't get into the tree canopies. When you suppress fire for years the fuel supply builds up so when a fire does start it's much more intense and gets into the canopies and that's where the real damage occurs.
Ponderosa pine has a very thick bark that can withstand the lower intensity ground fires. One species of pine actually requires fire to seed, its cones stay closed until fire causes them to open, then the seeds are released on clear ground which has the double benefit of being fertilized by raw nutrients released from the burned underbrush.
After a fire comes through the land takes a few years to recover but it comes back even stronger than before. It provides clearings for edge animals like deer and the plants they eat grow in profusion on the now open ground.
Lots of reason now to suppress fires but most are economic.
We have a terrible cheat grass problem around here - nasty little invasive grass that is far less nutritious than native grasses and has very clingy seeds. Natural fire suppressed it but without fire it out competes the native plants here and has taken over.
Fire is good. Fire in overly thick timber with a 10-25% beetle killed dry standing timber ensuring crowning fires.....not good at all. Government prohibiting logging or wood cutting of the standing timber which WILL blow down into an impenetrable mess making fuel for fire and impossible access.....even worse.
Yeh, the cheat has really taken over. Hate that crap. Took dog to vet again with cheat grass seed in ears again.
Really good fuel for fires
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
More or less.
Nature evolved with constant fires that kept the underbrush down so natural fires usually stayed down low and didn't get into the tree canopies. When you suppress fire for years the fuel supply builds up so when a fire does start it's much more intense and gets into the canopies and that's where the real damage occurs.
Ponderosa pine has a very thick bark that can withstand the lower intensity ground fires. One species of pine actually requires fire to seed, its cones stay closed until fire causes them to open, then the seeds are released on clear ground which has the double benefit of being fertilized by raw nutrients released from the burned underbrush.
After a fire comes through the land takes a few years to recover but it comes back even stronger than before. It provides clearings for edge animals like deer and the plants they eat grow in profusion on the now open ground.
Lots of reason now to suppress fires but most are economic.
We have a terrible cheat grass problem around here - nasty little invasive grass that is far less nutritious than native grasses and has very clingy seeds. Natural fire suppressed it but without fire it out competes the native plants here and has taken over.
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
More or less.
Nature evolved with constant fires that kept the underbrush down so natural fires usually stayed down low and didn't get into the tree canopies. When you suppress fire for years the fuel supply builds up so when a fire does start it's much more intense and gets into the canopies and that's where the real damage occurs.
Ponderosa pine has a very thick bark that can withstand the lower intensity ground fires. One species of pine actually requires fire to seed, its cones stay closed until fire causes them to open, then the seeds are released on clear ground which has the double benefit of being fertilized by raw nutrients released from the burned underbrush.
After a fire comes through the land takes a few years to recover but it comes back even stronger than before. It provides clearings for edge animals like deer and the plants they eat grow in profusion on the now open ground.
Lots of reason now to suppress fires but most are economic.
We have a terrible cheat grass problem around here - nasty little invasive grass that is far less nutritious than native grasses and has very clingy seeds. Natural fire suppressed it but without fire it out competes the native plants here and has taken over.
The biggest hazard in that kind of flying comes from the violent up and down drafts the fire creates. You can't see them and you can't react fast enough sometimes to counter them. React too strongly and you break a wing - as may have happened to a C-130 fire bomber a year or so ago and to several other bombers over the years.
The biggest hazard in that kind of flying comes from the violent up and down drafts the fire creates. You can't see them and you can't react fast enough sometimes to counter them. React too strongly and you break a wing - as may have happened to a C-130 fire bomber a year or so ago and to several other bombers over the years.
In addition many of these tail numbers are getting up there in age and in many cases with spotty maintenance records. The Forest Circus has tried to tap into the ASIP knowledge to better gain an understanding of the damage tolerance of these retardant assets. Add a new flight profile on these aircraft as the pictures illustrate and the structures don't like that there are cracks present from decades of prior service and a higher demand stress wise.
Fire is good. Fire in overly thick timber with a 10-25% beetle killed dry standing timber ensuring crowning fires.....not good at all. Government prohibiting logging or wood cutting of the standing timber which WILL blow down into an impenetrable mess making fuel for fire and impossible access.....even worse.
What would be the best strategy to get back to a sustainable "low" fire system that would be allowed to burn on its own? Can we do it without letting the whole thing go up in smoke as it is now?
No offense, but that doesn't look like it should be priority 1. Got alot of timberland burning here. Let the sagebrush burn and get that plane in the timber.
The WA Guard has 200+ people on the fire lines, and we are mobilizing/training more. The word is the fires up north of Spokane may burn through late October.
No offense, but that doesn't look like it should be priority 1. Got alot of timberland burning here. Let the sagebrush burn and get that plane in the timber.
That sagebrush backs up to the timber in a few miles. If allowed to burn, the timber would surely get lit, too.
No offense, but that doesn't look like it should be priority 1. Got alot of timberland burning here. Let the sagebrush burn and get that plane in the timber.
Dam, there's even arm chair quarterbacks in fire fighting.
May God bless and protect all those who give their all to fighting these mighty fires, in the air and on the ground, through the many States that are suffering this scourge.
The WA Guard has 200+ people on the fire lines, and we are mobilizing/training more. The word is the fires up north of Spokane may burn through late October.
Many of these fires will not be out until favorable weather and change in season hit the region. Stumps and root-wads will be still be smoking come first snowfall.
David, those hills may not look like that much longer. the Parker Ridge fire has run north to long canyon and is trying to crest over into Smith creek. If it does I will be looking for a new home. the west side the valley here looks like a page out of Dante's inferno. more than 6k acres of timber gone. the FS had boots on the ground when it was 3/4 acre. decided to let it burn into easier ground to fight. go figure. the blow up today has me worried as it is now about 1 mile from the house. my neighbor lost his skidder and a cat. been going on since the 27th. long enough
David, those hills may not look like that much longer. the Parker Ridge fire has run north to long canyon and is trying to crest over into Smith creek. If it does I will be looking for a new home. the west side the valley here looks like a page out of Dante's inferno. more than 6k acres of timber gone. the FS had boots on the ground when it was 3/4 acre. decided to let it burn into easier ground to fight. go figure. the blow up today has me worried as it is now about 1 mile from the house. my neighbor lost his skidder and a cat. been going on since the 27th. long enough
The USFS' infinite wisdom on display. Why are so many idiots in positions of power nowadays? Sorry to hear it's so close to you there.
many of us "armchair quarterbacks" have many years of firefighting behind us. and black lung to prove it. sage and grass fires are most easily contained by turning the soil. period.
I was camping at Lemola Lake when the Stouts Creek fire started. A few days later I was hiking Wizard Island in Crater Lake and the smoke was thick! - HWY 230 was/is closed to traffic due to the National Creek complex in the park. We're supposed to have rain this weekend - Pray for it!
we have a pile of bug out stuff stacked by the front door. they made us leave once and I only had time to get 1/2 my guns. (99's first of course)lol. I snuck back at 1 am from the house on the river and got more but still couldn't get everything dear to us. this blow up could get here with wind in minutes.
I have fought fire many times over the last century and have watched and experienced the changes in methods and attitudes. some are fine but some are asinine. to allow a fire to grow from 3/4 acre to 600 before getting aggressive is asinine.
let me say in no way am I denigrating the boots on the ground, they have my utmost appreciation and respect. But when the Head Ranger does his evaluation of the fire from a overlook 11 miles across the valley.......Asinine
What would be the best strategy to get back to a sustainable "low" fire system that would be allowed to burn on its own? Can we do it without letting the whole thing go up in smoke as it is now?
Two things that have been done away with in a lot of places are logging and grazing. People fight both tooth and nail and it is showing the effects it is having on big fires in many places.
What would be the best strategy to get back to a sustainable "low" fire system that would be allowed to burn on its own? Can we do it without letting the whole thing go up in smoke as it is now?
Two things that have been done away with in a lot of places are logging and grazing. People fight both tooth and nail and it is showing the effects it is having on big fires in many places.
I am up in the Cabinet's fifteen or so miles NE of Sandpoint and cannot see the Selkirk's at all and little of the Cabinet's behind me that are much closer. I am well into the woods and I am still an unfortunate lightening strike away. I have not grilled for six weeks. The fire fighters are the stars without a doubt.
white Bear, various agency's are actively recruiting. the will make you do a 4 hour cert course and dump your rear on the fires. if I was 40 years younger. if you do come out let me thank you ahead of time. these crews are strapped for manpower and supplies at this juncture. we have been passing out donuts, sandwiches and double shot starbucks(the most appreciated) most of these kids are under 30 and some are 18. they come off the lines looking like they have rolled in lamp black. saw one troop with 3 girls in it and only when they spoke did I realize their sex.
What would be the best strategy to get back to a sustainable "low" fire system that would be allowed to burn on its own? Can we do it without letting the whole thing go up in smoke as it is now?
Two things that have been done away with in a lot of places are logging and grazing. People fight both tooth and nail and it is showing the effects it is having on big fires in many places.
EDm, are you up Rapid lightening? like you this has killed most of our outside stuff. I haven't even fired a round since this started.(except a round at a rat in the spare bdrm) this is the driest year I can remember. ground is powder
What would be the best strategy to get back to a sustainable "low" fire system that would be allowed to burn on its own? Can we do it without letting the whole thing go up in smoke as it is now?
Two things that have been done away with in a lot of places are logging and grazing. People fight both tooth and nail and it is showing the effects it is having on big fires in many places.
AND THAT IS THE TRUTH!!
We're approaching a century of a "put it out" fire suppression policy for the range and wild-lands. No doubt that policy has the fuel loading high and shazam...infernos. A healthy range and forest land has recent understory burn (low intensity) in its past. A prime stand of ponderosa pine will have many trees showing a fire scar from the past but are perfectly healthy. Mismanagement (all facets) has lead to very unhealthy stands of timber.
EDm, are you up Rapid lightening? like you this has killed most of our outside stuff. I haven't even fired a round since this started.(except a round at a rat in the spare bdrm) this is the driest year I can remember. ground is powder
Yes I am. PM me as we are likely neighbors and should share a beer.
We're approaching a century of a "put it out" fire suppression policy for the range and wild-lands. No doubt that policy has the fuel loading high and shazam...infernos. A healthy range and forest land has recent understory burn (low intensity) in its past. A prime stand of ponderosa pine will have many trees showing a fire scar from the past but are perfectly healthy. Mismanagement (all facets) has lead to very unhealthy stands of timber.
And the entire time the federal gvt was insisting they know what's best for the forests and we are just a bunch of morons. No campfires, no this, no that, blocked off access, study the flowers, hire scientists to study the dirt, you name it. Write us a ticket for walking on a trail w/o a permit. And they call us kooks because we don't believe in their methodology or their science. Yeah, we're all just a bunch of dumb hicks, what could we know about land management? We should all just ask the govt to save us.
All over our state and others are folks newly homeless or about to be. The closest my friends are to one is four miles but that isn't very fire when they are burning.
This situation has been coming for a while. USFS has some policy issues and the cutting restrictions make it worse. The weather is part of the problem too but the forest and range conditions make them easier to get started and the heavy understory makes it tougher to put out. The shame is we know how to manage it better.
There are so many groups that risk themselves for us it is hard to thank them all. My thanks to you for your fine work. May the Lord keep you safe from harm.
One bunch that doesn't get much credit are the prison inmate groups. We were camped in Wallowa and one came in and camped with us. they were well behaved and well watched. It took my wife a while to figure out why some of the fire fighters were packing Glocks but she finally got it.
We have a terrible cheat grass problem around here - nasty little invasive grass that is far less nutritious than native grasses and has very clingy seeds. Natural fire suppressed it but without fire it out competes the native plants here and has taken over.
Just to clarify, the reason cheatgrass has taken over most areas is too frequent of fire. Without fire and given enough are still around, native perennial grasses can compete with it. The problem is that cheatgrass, by it's annual nature, speeds up the fire return interval. Instead of burning every 50 years or so, what was formerly sagebrush steppe is not burning every 5 years. This gives a huge competitive advantage to a prolific annual plant; cheatgrass.
Also more FWIW, when green cheatgrass is very palatable an nutritious for grazing. Nearly as good as alfalfa. The problem is that it only is in this state for about 4-6 weeks per year. Once dried it's all but worthless.
10 years ago we lost over 200,000 acres of prime mountain ground. So far this year what did not burn then is burning now. Last tally is right around 60,000 acres. The interesting thing this time 90% of the burning is all in the wilderness. The forest service had the opportunity to stop this fire when it started because it sat at about 250 acres for about 3 or 4 days, but they did not have any crews to fight it. Earlier in the summer we had a couple lighting fires start in the same area which never got over 50 acres but they brought in the DC-10, a 4 engine prop, 2 helicopters, two small single engine planes and 40 hotshots to fight the fires and had them out in a single day. There are some cabins that sit in the wilderness that were built in the late 60s or early 70s and there is only one road to them. They have set up water bladders and pumps with sprinklers. When the fire gets close enough they are going in and starting the pumps and leaving. Those cabins sit on forest service ground on a special lease and I have been told by FS management years ago that if those cabins ever brunt that the owners would not be allowed to rebuild. They will make the location into a camp site. I know that the forest needs to clean itself but the greenies have shut down timber harvest, grazing, and all other ways we have to manage the forest so we can now watch the trees burn. Bitter, Hell yes I am bitter.
We live between the Stouts Creek fire and the Cable Crossing fire and it has been smokey since the beginning of the month. Between the smoke and the incredibly dry conditions we are getting cabin fever. When the Stouts Creek fire blew up from 300 acres to 6000 acres in 4 hours we were incredibly lucky. If it had burned north, instead of south, we would have been burned over.
I did hear Washington governor Inslee blaming the fires on global warming. It caused me to wonder how much CO2 has been produced by the millions of acres that are burning.
Logger, my friend,
Sorry I didn't get back to you. Life is kinda different here now.
My friend, I can only imagine how helpless you felt ... one change of wind and your home would be burned to the ground; and there would be nothing you could do about it.
A few years ago, I helped a friend try to save his home. He lives on the Clackamas River and during one of those freak spring melts, the water was literally at his doorstep.
We started sandbagging at 4am and the water just kept coming, up and up. About 3pm (I was still filling sandbags), the volunteer fire department came by and said that the engineers were going to have to let a lot of water over the earth-filled North Fork Reservoir.
About an hour later, the water went through and over our pitiful effort ... and we started just getting his families stuff out.
The water reached the second floor sometime that evening.
As ignorant as it may sound, aren't fires a natural occurrence and would it not be natural to just let them burn?
It's actually like trying to fight a hurricane or an earthquake.
Yes, that does sound ignorant.
Earthquakes and hurricanes can't be managed. Forests can, and have, though eco-Nazi political pressure has led to mismanagement in the last few decades. The results are huge fuel loads that are hard to slow down when they're lit and burn much hotter than the spring time controlled burns, and result in dead ground that takes forever to recover. Then theres a staggering bureaucracy that's now in place to make sure a hundred men stand watching a fire burn while waiting for air support. Wilderness areas are "managed" with a hands-off approach and a let it burn attitude, feeling it's worse to leave a set of cat tracks behind then it is to wait 50-100yrs for a area to grow back.
Humans are on a timeline. Nature is not. As human populations grow and create more demand on limited resources, those resources need to be managed more intelligently. That hasn't been happening in the last 40+ years since the USFS was overrun by hippies.
I'm probably coming off a little strong, but I've spent the last two weeks watching my two local counties burn up.
Just to clarify, the reason cheatgrass has taken over most areas is too frequent of fire. Without fire and given enough are still around, native perennial grasses can compete with it. The problem is that cheatgrass, by it's annual nature, speeds up the fire return interval. Instead of burning every 50 years or so, what was formerly sagebrush steppe is not burning every 5 years. This gives a huge competitive advantage to a prolific annual plant; cheatgrass.
Also more FWIW, when green cheatgrass is very palatable an nutritious for grazing. Nearly as good as alfalfa. The problem is that it only is in this state for about 4-6 weeks per year. Once dried it's all but worthless.
Once dried, it's less than worthless. The only thing cheatgrass is good for is raising chukar partridge.
To expand a little, IF cheatgrass is grazed during the palatable stage, it all but fireproof. Historically, however, BLM is grazed Summer/Fall, but a Spring grazing rotation would prevent a lot of range fires.
Just to clarify, the reason cheatgrass has taken over most areas is too frequent of fire. Without fire and given enough are still around, native perennial grasses can compete with it. The problem is that cheatgrass, by it's annual nature, speeds up the fire return interval. Instead of burning every 50 years or so, what was formerly sagebrush steppe is not burning every 5 years. This gives a huge competitive advantage to a prolific annual plant; cheatgrass.
Also more FWIW, when green cheatgrass is very palatable an nutritious for grazing. Nearly as good as alfalfa. The problem is that it only is in this state for about 4-6 weeks per year. Once dried it's all but worthless.
Once dried, it's less than worthless. The only thing cheatgrass is good for is raising chukar partridge.
To expand a little, IF cheatgrass is grazed during the palatable stage, it all but fireproof. Historically, however, BLM is grazed Summer/Fall, but a Spring grazing rotation would prevent a lot of range fires.
The problem with trying to control areas that are monocultures of cheatgrass with grazing is timing and animals numbers. I've worked on 'winter' allotments that are trying it with sporadic success. It takes the right situation to have an operator that has the flexibility to be able to move the cows and deal with possible huge year to year cattle number swings.
One big way to get a leg up on cheatgrass is that after it burns get it seeded and hope for good weather. Native bunchgrasses may not be the best/most effective option either, but the red tape can require it. Crested wheatgrass, while another non-native, can compete pretty good if it gets established and put an area on the road back to being better.
we have a pile of bug out stuff stacked by the front door. they made us leave once and I only had time to get 1/2 my guns. (99's first of course)lol. I snuck back at 1 am from the house on the river and got more but still couldn't get everything dear to us. this blow up could get here with wind in minutes.
I have fought fire many times over the last century and have watched and experienced the changes in methods and attitudes. some are fine but some are asinine. to allow a fire to grow from 3/4 acre to 600 before getting aggressive is asinine.
let me say in no way am I denigrating the boots on the ground, they have my utmost appreciation and respect. But when the Head Ranger does his evaluation of the fire from a overlook 11 miles across the valley.......Asinine
Being as how I'm somewhat 'attached' to a business that sends air tankers out your way each season I guess I'm a little prejudiced in agreeing with your statement letting 3/4 acre fire bloom into 600 acres or more before fighting is asinine! But we must remember that the FS would rather send 2400 ground personnel with shovels than to use air support right away and in this manner the FS can 'justify' their budget!!
I don't know about those types of wildfires, but here, we jump as fast as we possibly safely can and pour every resource we can get into any fire, grass or brush, to keep it from getting big. ASAP.
In fact we've mutual aided LOTS of departments and had to send them home when we get there and find a couple departments could stop it.
There is NO feeling like behind the curve.
I hate sitting in a truck waiting for it to come out of the next thicket so we can get to it. We don't have capable and trained ground attack crews here to speak of, but we can almost always access em by vehicle at some point.
Ignoring a fire, well its kin to waiting to call FD when the pan catches fire on the stove, until the fire has vented out the roof... makes no sense.
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