If you have 4 pencils and 7 apples, how many pancakes will fit on the roof?

Purple. Because aliens don't wear hats.

420.

The covered 3-5th grade regularly last year as a sub and I didn't find common core math too crazy

300 militant lesbians SQUARED!! Yoko Ono and Hillary Clinton "did the math" one weekend back in 1974.....

We don't need new ways of presenting math, we need discipline in schools and students who put in the work.

I dont like the new math. My oldest is in the second grade. Common core is a bit wonky.

I do like her teacher this year though. Not much homework.

No way a kid under the age of 10 should have homework.

Yup...

Why is it so impossible to get people to understand that?

I said the emperor has no clothes one too many times and was invited to leave the teaching profession.

And Idiocracy, here we come...

What I see of it, is that it is teaching to the very lowest sector of students.

For anyone of average intelligence, much of this is a waste of time. And if you're gifted, it's a colossal waste of time.

But it's not as bad as China, though in a different way. Typically a year 3 public school student would have something on the order of 70-100 math problems a night. But they would not really be on the new material presented that day in class. It's nearly all review. But the Chinese' minds are honed at a very young age to do arithmetic in their heads, quickly. And it stays with them through their lives.

P.S. - No "new" math nonsense here. No funny terminology (what the heck is "renaming addition"?) Just basic arithmetic and word problems.

The bolded quote means they have "number sense." Common core math is designed to teach number sense in the early grades. Word problems are a major part of the new standards. "Renaming addition?" Never heard of it and I teach common core math every day. I don't read about on the internet...

The stupidest thing was when "borrowing" became "trading". If anything, it should be called "stealing"; "borrowing" at least implies that there might be reimbursement at some point in the future (although there never is), while "trading" suggests some sort of equal exchange between the two places, which would imply an instantaneous exchange.

One of my biggest disgusts is trying to watch a teenager make change. They have no clue how to solve math problems in their heads anymore.

Common core logic is like going to Miami FL from WV by way of going due north going across both poles and coming up from the south. Apes azz logic.

CC seems particularly cruel to impose on kids who don't read well in the early grades. Primary school math is now a reading comprehension exercise. Lots of wasted time. Lots of time spent on silly BS.

Bakerloo's so-called "number sense" I believe refers to the training to parse out numbers by place value, combine the place value terms, and recombine numbers. That's all well and good...that's what we all do everyday in our heads for large numbers. Problem is...there is not sufficient time spent on memorization of sums and figures less than 20 to make it work. I've made the comment to my kids' teachers that "speed isn't everything; it's the only thing" regarding memorization of various low-value sums and differences, and memorization of times tables to 12. Emphasis on these is approaching but not equal to zero.

So for now they have it backwards. 1-2 grade has way too much reading interpretation with no automatic sums and differences to build on.

I think that CC will put the smart kids 2-years behind, to where none will be able to enter college calculus for engineers and science majors their first year, which in turn allows 4-year completion of an engineering degree. I'll be watching like a hawk how they present algebra in the later middle school grades.

When my youngest was in primary school they introduced the new math

No textbook for the kids

I couldn't figure out wtf?

So when helping him with homework I just taught him what I'd been taught

At pt conferences his teacher told us he has no problem goin to the board to solve a problem in front of class but she worried it was confusing to the other students as he'd do it the way he'd been taught at home

I still don't have a clue about all that ladder bullchit

But I know aught and one are one

Libs always striving for mediocrity for all.

Vek: two thoughts to tie in with what you said:
1) You brought up the horribly unacceptable word (and concept)"memorization", which is currently anathema to those who set policy without being involved.
I am still of the old-school belief that memorization is a good skill to develop, not only for the information that it makes instantly available to the brain, but for the exercise that it provides for the brain.
2)Way too much time is spent on "reading instruction" at the expense of other subjects. While reading, particularly reading comprehension, is extremely important, there is only so much that can be done to help students to develop that skill to the highest level that they are capable of achieving; after that it is just wasted time and effort.

What do you mean?

I think I know, but as I am quite daft, would like you to explain it to me.

Old math had it's problems, too. I got through 3 semesters of college calculus in the '60's and still had no idea of what it was used for. We were taught all theory and no practical use whatever. Years later I was considering going back to school and needed to bone up on math. A friend who taught at a local college gave me a 'business calculus' book a salesman had given him. It was full of practical examples of calculus in use. The light bulb switched on.

Didn't you have any concurrent physics or chemistry courses? I was well into using calculus by my second semester as an engineering undergraduate.

As long as 3 and 5 are still acceptable answers to 2+2, I'm good with it...

Btw, where's my participation trophy for posting in this thread?

I had 2 semesters of physics and 3 of chem. They didn't use it at that level. My major was agriculture so my sciences after that went toward biology.

In other news only incidentally related to this thread, clear and concise communication seems to be a lost art. As a programmer I deal in specifics, computers don’t know “what you meant by that”. I constantly get the fuzziest, non-informational emails possible, mostly from millennials (several with MBA’s) but also from older folks who should know better, and which take me 10 or 15 minutes just to determine what the sender is actually asking.

We have a pet name for that – Common Core communication.

I think CC and math ed in general has swung way too hard away from rote memorization of arithmetic. It's useful to teach why things are the way they are, but not at the expense of pure autopilot arithmetic speed.

Regarding reading - the excessive emphasis on reading comprehension in math is at best misguided, and at worst an abandonment of dyslexic but otherwise sharp kids who can "do" traditional math well. The same kids that end up excelling in skilled trades or other careers that are tremendously important/valuable/productive yet less tied to academia. One wonders if it's deliberate.

A lot of the common core math stuff is what I've been doing for 40 years.

Doing things in 10's is the way to roll. Most people I know can't add 5 numbers without writing it all out and carrying numbers.

Do sheit in 10's and you can rock it in your head in seconds.

I think the real trouble is not with the Common Core awesomeness, it is the fact that after all that GOVT education, you are qualified to flip a burger.

I agree with the concept "words mean things" and constantly run into people trying to "read between the lines" foolishness. In my field it was sort of like yours. It was either right or wrong. There was never "close enough" unless it was right.

Reminds me of the 'Fire. Lots of 5 paragraph responses to questions that are easily answered with a 'Yes or No'


I've asked many a people, what are the least amount of words you can use to get your point/question across.

Vek,



Rush has been saying for years the government is working on and succeeding at the dumbing down of America. Fifty-three years ago I helped my brother, who was terrible at academics, get into the plumbers union. He excelled to the point where he became a foreman for many years.

"...eats, shoots, and leaves..."

Quoting older posts...double yup.

I earned pretty OK grades in eng school - not by being a genius, but by drilling at length on homework, quizzes and earlier exams to where lots of things on big exams and finals became automatic (and VERY FAST), conserving precious time for figuring out the tricky BS. I got a lot of quizzical looks from profs and under-the-breath expletives from fellow students when I'd pack up a half hour early on a two hour final exam, having spent 15 minutes checking answers and another 15 re-checking answers. I wasn't doing anything particularly novel, I wasn't taking any genius shortcuts. Repetition brought speed and understanding.

This isn't horn tooting. This is proving the point - repetition brings about both speed and understanding.

A great cure for test anxiety is to know what you're doing.

Exactly.

I remember a few people in college asking me how I did so well on tests. I told them that I read the assignments, made sure I understood what I read and PAID attention in class.

Forget the note taking and spend the time comprehending what the teacher is teaching. I see SO many jotting away notes in a fury, but not listening/comprehending what is being said.

I almost NEVER took notes, sometimes a few bullet words etc, but that was it. I found it far better to UNDERSTAND what was being taught and you can't do that if you're too busy writing.

If you UNDERSTAND was is being taught, you don't need to worry about tests and studying.

This^

Had a Grandfather who delivered feed to farmers out of the back of a big truck until he was 70. Watched him routinely add columns of 4 & 5-digit numbers in his head.......quickly and accurately. He used to entertain us grandkids by adding columns of multi-digit numbers upside down.

His explanation (and training) were "common core". It's not a particularly new premise.

It was in a pastel bag with your juice box and cookie. Also you should know that your trophy will be gender neutral.

If a test is important, you should be at least a bit anxious.

Ding ding ding. My dad drilled flash cards and math by memory until I wanted to puke. Now I can spit out percentages and fractions in my head. It freaks my wife out!

I don't think so, but I've never been an anxious person about much of anything.

Vek - "amen" to all of that. Each person needs to figure out for himself (and herself - pc moment) how to go about learning whatever material it is that he (she) needs to learn.

That must be nice! I worry about everything.

Interesting though, I did not buy any books in college, took few notes and all that.

Paid attention in class and did quite well, even though I stressed about tests.

Maybe you shouldn't have worn your emperor costume to school...

It's how dad taught me and he was born in 1919.
37 x 17 for example becomes 37 x 10= 370 + 370 = 740- 120 (40x3, which is quicker than 3 x 37 because it's in 10's) which = 620 then add back 9 (because 40 is 3 greater than 37 and you multiplied 40 three times and 3x3 is 9), which is the final answer of 629.

Of course I can do that in my head in about 2 seconds.

Sounds very familiar to me.

And percentages are a REAL [bleep] or many.

Another favorite:

The number 5 is what percent greater than the number 4?' The answer of course is 25%

Then you ask 'Since the number 5 is 25% greater than the number 4, then the number 4 is what percent less than the number 5?'

99% of the people will say 25%, which of course is incorrect.

The memorization is now called "fluency." In 1st grade it includes adding within 20 and subtracting within 10.
I agree with everything you wrote...

LOL - sounds rather familiar....my notes were so meaningless and sparse... but they brought back the lectures perfectly - for me- in my mind.

Because they're too busy listening to their kids tell them that they got kicked out of class for sharpening their pencil when the reality is their kid disrupted class repeatedly by getting up and sharpening a pencil and then breaking it over an over again by tossing it at the ceiling.

Common Core is only one of many ways that some kids can understand math readily. A good teacher will recognize those that get it and those that don't, and will adapt. I am not crazy about the stuff my 4th grader brings home, and often show him other ways. Flash cards- rote memory- still have value (and seem to be an omission in CC perhaps.)

Somewhat simplified versions of your written explanation is what is being requested on my primary-schoolers' homework. Maybe I don't expect enough of them, but before they offer written explanations of such processes, I think that they should be trained on the individual steps until it is rote second nature. Only then can they think beyond the steps to the process. Right now, CC has that part backwards.

Furthermore, there is zero guidance on any of this provided by the school for parents. I can see what they are hinting at and can therefore help, but I'm not sure that's the case for others. This is deliberate alienation of parents and students.

Spectrum Math, grade 3, published 2015, corresponding to CA state standards. Need me to post a picture from the book where it demonstrates renaming? Or can you take my word for it that I didn't just "read about it on the internet"?

As I mentioned previously, rote memorization is currently somewhere between firearms and conservative thought on the tschidt list of education, mainly because it asks the students to be responsible for their own learning instead of someone else doing it for them.

Actually, as part of his third grade math curriculum in '14-'15, my oldest needed to demonstrate speed and accuracy in the 1-12 multiplication tables. IIRC, it was writing down all 13 answers correctly in under a minute. And the problems were not in order, so you had to read them. This, in a CA public school...

Basic math tables can easily be taught by parents.

After all, it's the parent's responsibility to make sure THEIR children are educated.

In the end, nothing will change. Smart kids will succeed, dumb ones will not. Kid's with good parents and discipline will not have to worry about flipping burgers.

Mom had me reading pretty well before I went to Kindergarten. It was a nice advantage for me.

My FIL had my daughter identifying uppercase letters and lowercase letters by making her retrieve toy magnet letters from the fridge door in exchange for letting her fish a jelly bean out of his shirt pocket...she was barely 2 at the time.

What I mean, is that people NEED repetition and practice in order to retain what they've learned. One of the best ways to do that in a formal school setting is through homework. To not do so at ages 6-9 leads to 17 year old clerks that can't make change without punching it into the register. Or they go all "deer-in-headlights" when you give them a $20, and 10 seconds later after it's been entered, you give them another 17 cents on your $16.67 bill...

Which is somewhat the premise of the movie Idiocracy, that the world in 500 years will be solely populated by what are now considered idiots. Those people with a high IQ having been displaced from the gene pool by the fecundity of the stupid.

Seriously, there's an app for multiplication tables. I had to do nothing except be strict enough to make the boy practice a few minutes a day. The bar is set pretty darn low...

Same here, though I seldom found an occasion to use Pall Mall and Cutty Sark in a sentence in Kindergarten.

Please do.
Thanks in advance.

Spectrum Math is not a CA State adopted curriculum. You can buy these books at Walmart. Below is the list of curriculum approved by CA.
http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ma/im/sbeadopted2014mathprgms.asp

Exactly.

Similar to the way I learned it after years of being frustrated with carrying, borrowing, moving numbers here and there, etc. Except in my head I do 37x17 a little different than you did. I go ahead and round the 17 up and multiply 37x20 equals 740, then I figure the 90 (30x3) and 21 (7x3), add them together to get 111 and take that from the 740 to get 629. Same result, different pathway. You also mentioned percentages. Dad drilled into me (and I am glad he did - he would watch me trying to carry numbers by counting on my fingers and his blood would boil) that I can always come close to 10% or 1% by moving the decimal to find .1 or .01, I can then use my mental multiplication to find figures very close to actual percentages quickly. When we watch "The Biggest Loser" my wife and I like to see how close I can get to their actual percentage before it pops up onto the screen. Just a nerdy skill I picked up! I also figured out in high school to add and subtract by beginning at the left instead of the right and forget all of the "borrowing" and my life got MUCHO EASIER!

I sometimes do it the same way you did, depends on the moment.

Whoa! No way I could switch back and forth. I gotta stick with what has worked. And I can't do those in 2 seconds like you. More like 10! Ha

I've got a little 'Rain Man' in me when it comes to math.

Of course I have the artistic abilities of a rock.

Kick that around with a little 420. It be clear then!!

You nailed it...

Ok - get yourself a copy at your nearby Walmart then. I think my wife picked these up at a local bookstore, as there is no Walmart within 30 or so miles. At any rate, regarding renaming and the CA curriculum:

From reference.com



And from http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/ccssmathstandardaug2013.PDF




So, renaming does appear to be part of the CA curriculum. Though in the CA text it is referred to as "compose" and "decompose". But I could be wrong. Is there a difference between "renaming" 339 as 33 tens and 9 ones, vs saying 339 decomposes to 33 tens and 9 ones? Would it be less or more decomposition to say that 339 is 3 hundreds, 3 tens and 9 ones?

Racist, homophobe.

Not trying to veer the thread off course but perhaps you can verify something someone told me about the way the Chinese say numbers which automatically helps their children with math.

Instead of pronouncing the number 37 as thirty seven (or as the Germans call it seven and thirty), the Chinese would call that three tens seven, is that correct?

What I mean, is that people NEED repetition and practice in order to retain what they've learned. One of the best ways to do that in a formal school setting is through homework. To not do so at ages 6-9 leads to 17 year old clerks that can't make change without punching it into the register. Or they go all "deer-in-headlights" when you give them a $20, and 10 seconds later after it's been entered, you give them another 17 cents on your $16.67 bill...

Which is somewhat the premise of the movie Idiocracy, that the world in 500 years will be solely populated by what are now considered idiots. Those people with a high IQ having been displaced from the gene pool by the fecundity of the stupid. [/quote]


There seem to be a lot of studies out from some Scandinavian countries that have suspended homework that are testing way better than our kids.

If you receive crap instruction while you are in class, it does not seem to matter how much homework you get.

I would much rather a kid gets his work done in school and then comes home and gets to be a kid after getting his chores done.

What good does the ability to make instant change in your head do when you are living in your parents basement?

Renaming means changing the name...
Decomposing means breaking down.
Understanding that 343 is 3 hundreds 4 tens and 3 ones is very important. Place value is huge for kids.

The discipline I mentioned earlier would go a long way to making this feasible.

I don't know what sort of time kids are given to work problems in class these days - I do remember having very little primary school and middle school homework myself, as I was very motivated to get it done in class so I didn't have to take it home...

Granted my daughter is only in the second grade, so I am sure things will change over time, but she ALWAYS finishes her assignments in class.

Its the 5 to 15 pages of work that is handed to them as they walk out the door that bothers me.

Its a stressful deal when she comes home with all that work. I get riled up when 2+6=applesauce.

I would imagine that if she has kids it will be easier.

My genius buddy actually likes some aspects of common core.

Since he is the reason I passed geometry and is a nuclear engineer, I guess I have to take his word for it.


Until public education is worth a dang, I will advocate the kids get outta there ASAP.

You can always pay for private school...

Yup, paying twice shouldn't bother you. It's for the greater good.

That's what I did because my kids were that important.

We assigned very little that was "homework". We made assignments and provided time during class for them to be worked on so that we were available to help where and when it was needed. If something was not completed in the time allowed, there were other times during the day that could be used for that as well. If something was not completed during the day, it was expected that it would be taken home and completed for the next day. We did stress that fifteen to twenty minutes spent at home going over class-generated notes would go a long way toward making studying for a test much more about review and less about "cramming".

There are some interesting things in this thread, and I don't even have a dog in the fight about it. Just killing time right now waiting on something.

First as Steelhead and maybe others have mentioned base ten is the only game in town. You can add and subtract like lightening when your brain works this way. Although many will not like to hear this, it's most likely why the Metric system is so far superior. Everyone can count money! Having lived in South Africa for many years, the Metric system is the standard. Learning this and using it was far easier then if I was born there and moved to the USA having to learn gallons, miles, inches, ounces, and feet etc.

As far as reading, I was under strong pressure as a kid to read. Even as a very young boy my parents told me if you can learn to read perfectly you can learn anything you want to. Now 50 years later I will be reading something on the fox news app on my iPhone. I'm using my thumb to scroll through it so fast my girlfriend says hold on you read way too fast slow down!

You cannot possibly read that fast and understand anything your reading! I hand her the phone and tell her ask me something about the content, any sentence. I can repeat it 90% or better word for word. Reading is as critical a life skill as anything.

Mathman, has also nailed much of this. If I had been sent home from school with a poor grade or some discipline issue I would get my ass beat. I would not have enjoyed the next week of my life one bit. Discipline and learning to focus was drilled into me with relentless pressure from my parents. Those same learned skills extended into my college education in South Africa as a young adult. That school was not even in English!

I have a son with serious learning disability thanks to his biological mother who was a drunk during her pregnancy. Giving him the gift of Fetal Alcohol spectrum disorder. The schools have no idea how to deal with that 10 second attention span. Neither did I to tell the truth. I'm not sure what the ratio of troubled kids is to "normal" but the schools cannot handle any kids with issues.

I also think those learning issues greatly extend to kids with Parents that use the school as a day care and do nothing to help their children though school. If it were not for the relentless discipline of my parents while I was in school I would not be using the internet, graduated from university in the USA with electrical engineering or the Wildlife management education in South Africa.

No parenting guidance, no success period. I do not think that the schools alone, nor the curriculum is the ultimate deciding factor of a kids success. It's the parents involvement that makes or breaks the future of the kid. It's cheap and easy to hire a local college student to tutor a struggling kid one hour a week in the evening. They all want to make 20 bucks for an hour of helping a kid.

I've also learned that I'm not the best at showing patience and understanding with my own son. I can do this flawlessly with any other kid, but doing this with your own kid is a stress between you and them. Especially with My sons attention issues from the FAE.

It's not a freaking village........ idiot ( hillery)! It's the parents!

I wish I had that option around here, and home school is out for me.


Very little of what passes for "education" is worth the money it cost to send them there.

Admittedly, I have been reading a lot of information put out by Thomas Sowell.

If you want an interesting read, look into Charter Schools in Harlem.

Once you get past all the teachers Union's sites crying about them, there is good info. It seems to really be working in the inner city.

If all that 12 years of Government Education prepares you for is to be able to compete with illegal immigrants that dont speak the language, then it was not worth the money it cost.

I spent a couple of terms on a school board and this is an excellent summary of what I learned. Denial of this reality is an evil wish for the kids.

Also, did many years on a craniofacial team and dealt with fetal alcohol. Parents who do this should be neutered after twenty in the big house. It's a life sentence.

So, you didn't read this part of my quote on renaming, did you:



Note the words "breaking.... down". I swear I've seen those before. Where was it now?



Oh yeah, that was it.

Exactly. In that particular case "san shi qi".

The named places are one, ten, hundred, thousand, ten thousand and then hundred million. 100,000 is 10 ten thousand (shi wan), 1,000,000 is 1 hundred ten thousand (yi bai wan)...

But there is wonkiness in the words used in the Chinese numbering system as well. Take the digit "2". Sometimes it's called "two", sometimes it's called "pair".

As in: one, two, three.... ten nine, two ten, two ten one.... one hundred nine ten nine, pair hundred, pair hundred zero one... one thousand nine hundred nine ten nine, pair thousand, pair thousand zero hundred zero ten one... (1,2,3...19,20,21...199,200,201...1999,2000,2001...)

Note the zeros used for clarity - because when you say "three hundred five" (san bai wu) you are using verbal shorthand for 350 (san bai wu shi) not 305 (san bai ling wu)

I teach in the public school system and send my dyslexic daughter to a private school. The public school system could not give her the supports I want for her, so I pay for it.

If it's important you will find a way. If it's not important, you will find an excuse. Paying for private school means we sacrifice some things... Some parents don't want to make those sacrifices.

Me too! My notes for 3 weeks of classes may have fit on a single page of a notebook and wouldn't have meant anything to anyone other than me. I paid attention while others were busy writing. To this day, I can't take decent notes in a meeting but I can recall most anything that was said.

Totally agree on the need to go metric . I also wish they would teach economics in high school.

One of the best profs I ever had for a regular course was one of my PhD advisors. He was very particular about textbooks. He wanted one that was accurate, clear, well organized, and at a level that could be profitably read without his having to hand hold the students by explaining the text during lecture time. If that meant the text was somewhat below the level of what he wanted for the full strength of the course it was OK, he was there to put in the tougher stuff. Every lecture he would give each of us a set of his own notes, usually six to eight legal pages. They not only included the detailed theorems and proofs he would present, but also good bibliographical references. This allowed him to spend his time in class discussing how what he provided us in the notes built upon the assigned reading, rather than regurgitating the text. Also we the students weren't expending energy and attention trying to jot down everything at flank speed.

Bother me? Yes it does. Greater good? Nope its for my kids good and nothing else....

My private education was 10 times better than the last 4 years of public education ever could have thought about being...what a joke public education was when I was in school. If we'd have had kids, they'd have never seen a public school....

;-{>8

The 'nuclear family', where have you gone?



Per Merriam-Webster