In fairness, I think he appointed himself rather than be chosen by Trump. His name is Robert Jeffress and he has a recurring gig on Fox along with being the Pastor of First Baptist of Dallas.

He pastored First Baptist in Wichita Falls prior to being "called" to Dallas. He loves media attention and today I heard he had blessed a Trump in whatever action he chose to take against N K., using Paul's letter to the Romans as a basis.

He was forever grabbing local headlines here. One example was when he found out the local public library bought two copies of " Heather has two Mommies" to loan out. When he couldn't shame the Library Board into burning them, he asked his congregation to keep the books checked out and pay the fines so tender eyes wouldn't be subjected to it.

That's not the sort of thing Baptist Pastors do as a rule.

We went to his church one Easter Sunday thinking we would see the usual special presentations and hear special music. The entire hour was devoted to a video of the architects drawing for a new sanctuary and a plea for donations to the building fund.

Raising the money for the new building was his ticket to Dallas.

Looking at him reminds me of what an old Mississippi Riverboat Captain told his son, who told it to me:

" Don't trust no SOB if you can put bof his eyes out with one finger."

Trump and a Baptist preacher..... Sounds like the beginning of a joke......

i thought trump man was a presbyterian, his mom being from scotland and all. sorry, carry-on.

Normal preacher. Praise the Lord and pass the plate. [bleep] making 4-5 times more than the average member of the congregation.
Bible says "Jesus wept". He should looking down here seeing what pricks do in his name.
Wasn't it Gandhi that said " I like your Christ, but not your Christian's. They are so unlike your Christ"
Guy might have wore a diaper, but he was spot on.

That has not been my experience at all. And I doubt yours either, but carry on with your nonsense if you must. Statistics don't back up what you're saying.

The church has been corrupt for hundreds of years. Fully 75% of the preachers I've known would have been fired and 1/2 would be in prison today if they had to meet the same ethical standards as most government employees. About 1 in 4 that I've known were honest decent people. There is simply too much money, too little work and no oversight in the ministry profession. And that is what it has become, a business.

Preachers have their own agenda. Some good. Some bad.

Come down to Leesburg and you can attend church with us. Your conclusions would be proven 100% incorrect.

American median income $44,000.00
Senior pastor $95,000.00

My experience has taught me to be very wary of preachers. Glad your experience has been different.

I liked it when Jeffreys essentially told his congregation that this nation needs a good baass to straighten stuff up.
I like him a lot more better than zeros GD America preacher.

Good perceptive non PC truth telling preachers need more bigger sanctuaries. Im tired of those mealy mouth bastids who say they are afraid of losing their tax exempt status and are afraid of losing a few bucks by pissing off old yellow dog dimocrats to tell it like it is. He has guts and lays them on the line, which is why he needs a bigger sanctuary.

He's got some decent people giving him spiritual advice and some real losers too.

One of those being Paula White, can't believe he'd let her set foot in the White House. She's one of those that's made a career out of "doing the Lord's work", including nailing Benny Hinn.

Im sick of those worthless "vote yer conscience" bastids.

Simply a representation of modern American society. The average "American" is a worthless piece of mooching entitled [bleep], regardless of occupation. Organized religion has not been spared of this curse among their membership. Everybody needs something to help them get by. I'll stick with alcohol.

Alchyhaul sounds like a proven strategy.

What is the education level of these "Senior Pastors"?

most senior pastors have a doctorate degree, about 9 years of post HS education.
What do most other people holding doctorates make?

Thank you, rphguy. I was hoping someone else would weigh in with some facts.

LOL> I am a senior pastor myself. Albeit, I am the only pastor on staff and I'm bi-vocational. Also a pharmacist.

I have a Master of Divinity Degree. I make about $22K as a bi-vo pastor.
Am I overpaid also according to the other guy?

I would hazard to guess that you don't attend Church and use your vast experience as a good excuse. In my possibly not so vast experience,I've known several pastors. I've not yet met one that made 1/2 the minimum wage if you counted all the hours worked. Most pastors actually work two full time jobs with their Pastor job taking just about every hour of the day away from their wives and families. Most of the time it's a hard thankless job where you constantly have cheap ass holes concerned that you are stealing the dollar they put in the collection plate. I've known a bunch that used the money from their second job to subsidize the church income just to keep the lights on.

I think most government employees should already be in jail. Most is over 50%. so couple that with your 75% and it looks like most pastors should be in jail. I have yet to meet a pastor who is not a liar.

Met some decent pastors, in style and character.
Some priests too.
Think it 50/50 if good or not.
Proly like other professions.

But being religion...........the 50% bad, proly are 90% insane.

Why does it not surprise me that you couldn't find even one who is worthy?

Worthy of what?

What are they lying to you about?

Whatever they want to get people to attend. The first one that comes to mind is when I went to a Nazarene church when I moved to a new town. I asked the pastor if he believed God created in six twenty-four hour days. He said, "Yes." I then asked if believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Again he said, "Yes." Then I asked if he believed Jesus was coming back for the church. He answered, "Yes." We started attending the church. Later he told me, "I don't know why I answered those questions the way I did. I don't believe any of those things." The last church I attended I asked the pastor if he thought the instructions in the New Testament were to be applied to the church today. He said, "Positively." Then once I started he had a woman come to the pulpit and speak. I left right then. God's Word is very clear.

1 Timothy 2:9-14
"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."

1 Corinthians 14:26-34
"What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

"The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

I've been told that 87.538% of stats cited on the innerwebs are made up on the spot.

I am always somewhat confused by threads like this; particularly when started by professing Christians. I get the cultural hatred of authority figures particularly as it relates to these in whom we place so much trust, but why add to anti-Christian sentiment (even if it's for a legitimate reason) by throwing this stuff out there?

Seems like shooting oneself in the foot if one cares about the glory of Christ.

And no, I don't care a lick for this pastor nor for Baptist theology in general. I tend to think it's a mistake for a minister to speak on political issues.

I happen to have had a couple outstanding ministers who faithfully preach(ed) Christ's Gospel each Lord's Day, visited the sick and grieving, encouraged care for the refugee, widow, & orphan, and generally showed forth Christ's love to a sick & dying world.

If mere men being empowered to do all that doesn't bear testimony to Christ's power through the HS I don't know what does.

You need to associate with better pastors. What you just cited is one "pastor" who quickly retracted something he said but did not believe, and who then violated a tenet that he said he believed in. Frankly, this guy had no business being a pastor to begin with, seeing that admitted to not believing in the resurrection or Christ's return. But I do think it is unfair to say most pastors should be in jail. There are lots of churches out there that have, along with their pastors, made compromises of varying degrees with the world. No one, pastor or congregant, is perfect, and there are charlatans in every profession. The ones I have known have been, so far as I know, good men. Think you are being overly harsh.

As an aside, our choir would sound pretty bad if it weren't for the women.

True.

My grandpa used to say if you come home and see the preacher leaving your house he'll either be picking his teeth or zipping up his pants. Not sure how true that is but I always found it funny.

Worthy to teach you.

Hilarious, Ringman would have shunned Ruth and stoned Rahab.

What do you expect from a thing like ringman. Barnum and Bailey as far as I'm concerned.

Not to mention that Peter must have lied in Acts 2:18. I suppose Ringman would say that it would be OK for the women to prophesy as long as no one heard them.

Just another example of misinterpreting scripture. The who it is spoken to, and the why, is very important in the scripture,otherwise many women would have an excuse for unwed pregnancy.

Ringman cant understand English much less Hebrew & Greek and there is no one who can teach him to.

He is "comfortably obtuse"

Clergy is supposed to be a calling, not an occupation. You comparing the clergy to any other occupation proves a point. It's become a lucrative career choice which tends to draw in alot of folks who treat it as they would a secular position. Read the teachings of Jesus and tell me you think he would approve of someone using his teachings to live a way above median lifestyle. I spent 3 days a week til I turned 17 and moved out in a church. Avent noticed a void in my life since then that needs filled. Den of liars and hypocrites

Based on James women are allowed to sing in church.

It was a couple years before the pastor told me he didn't believe what he said.

God's Word either means what It says or It doesn't. I choose to believe It is very clear and means what It says.

Typical church goer. Lots of speculation.

So you don't believe Scriptures were written to the modern church? Take a look at to whom They are written and disregard Those addressed to a specific group. The rest I guess you can apply to the modern church. I choose to take It as a whole.

You make that sound very commercial and not a bit like a religious calling.

I have met two that believed, truly believed and were well worth the knowing.

Met a lot that I wouldn't piss on.

Way too many preachers and not enough pastors.

No,not all are written to the modern church. Heb.10:26 for instance cannot be applied to Christians. It was written specifically to Jews who where considering returning to the sacrificial offerings after having heard the Gospel. The "willful sin" spoken of is leaving the Gospel to return to Jewish law. You fall into much ignorance not considering who is being spoken to and why.

Do you still make animal sacrifices for your sins? Then why can't you consider the whole of the scriptures rather than picking what you wish to obey and insist that others obey as well. If women are to always be silent in church,then how are they to prophesy in the last days as Perter spoke of concerning the prophet Joel in Acts 2:18? If a woman can never instruct a man, how is it that God allowed Aquila and Priscilla to more perfectly instruct Apollos in Acts 18:24-26?

God allowed women to be both prophetesses and teachers in both the old and new testament. Either you are wrong in your interpretation that women can neither speak in church or teach men,or God is schizophrenic. I choose to believe that it is you who is wrong,and God is doing just fine.

Paul wrote for the women to keep silent and ask their husbands at home,at that particular time to that particular group because they were all new to the Gospel. The men had heard, but when they brought their wives to learn, too many questions were asked during service,so Paul simply said to catch them up about what was going on at home.

God is no respecter of persons or sex. Rom.2:11 and Gal.3:28

Can you show me from God's Word where Hebrews10:26 was NOT written to Christians? Many Christians have used That very Scripture to tell me I should be part of an assembly.

The rest of your post borders on foolishness.

You can find it if you take the time to study the original text and take the whole letter into consideration. The reason that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" is that if a Jew wouldn't accept the sacrifice of Jesus as final,no other sacrifice would have any merit.

As to the rest of my post , 1 Cor.1:21


Would you otherwise take the scripture to mean that if a Christian sins on purpose,he is no longer saved? To do so would be eisegesis.

Jesus came to shepherd the weak and stray flock, and he knowingly chose a much despised and decrepit
fault filled group of men to be his 12 disciples......so yeh, Gandhi was correct.

I have European Roman catholic on both sides, and my parents and grandparents and their parents all treated priests
with rightful circumspect, full well knowing what your grandpa said was true...I recall the priests dropping in from time to
time at our home and my parents politely put out the vibe to let them know they are not interested in the two faced snakeoil
god talk and that they were not really welcome....they got the message..

of course if they weren't trying to bang the parish women, the pedophile priests were banging the children of those women....
and those who were doing neither, just went about keeping it secret and protecting the reputation of the church and the
seminary they belong to...... trash the lot of them from the Vatican down.....the horrific extent of church leader sexual
abuse investigations across the globe says it all really.....and its just the tip of the iceberg.

My old man is the best witness of Christ's teaching I've ever known, and I've RARELY heard him quote a single scripture.
Actions speak louder than words, and selflessness is paramount. Looking for salvation in some mega church led by a pastor with a doctorate, and a $500 suit is like looking for a virgin in a whore house.
Slick suited sheister con men better read and comprehend Ezekil 25:17 if you actually follow the word.
Me? I could give a [bleep] less. I could care less about organized religion and the sad circus it's become. I'm gonna work hard, be the best parent I can be, be true to my wife, try to help my fellow man when possible and be careful not to purposely do harm to others unless provoked. If that's not the spirit of Christ's teachings, I don't know what is.

Lol. It's hard to watch God when he finds out he's not God.

We get it, you've got an axe to grind against Christians and religion....

Your old man operated like my parents and grandparents, ...
they never ranted on about Jesus or God, rarely if ever attended a congregation,
never trumpeted themselves as christians before others, instead they just got on
with the good ways and actions expected of christians.

but that calls for a little training and discipline in the ways of quiet humble service,
which is alien to many self serving God botherers.

Regardless,

He's better the Obama's preacher.

Fixed.

Who told you the clergy was supposed to be a calling and not a job?

Those aren't God's words, those are Paul's.

The truth is that "you don't know what is". All your good deeds and loving kindness is like menstrual rags to God, as long as you are trusting in what you can do to be worthy of Heaven. Salvation is to surrender your life to God and trust in Jesus alone and his sacrifice for your redemption. From that relationship and trust good deeds will be birthed,but the good deeds without the relationship and trust in Jesus are totally worthless.

Personally,I have to question your relationship with Jesus since you seem to despise his body,the Church,and his servants,the pastors. Do you judge them by their deeds and yourself by your intentions? Do you judge them only by what you suppose to be true,and what makes you feel better about not submitting to any authority? Do you want to be judged as harshly as you are judging them? I can't say if you are saved or not,but I've told you what it is to be saved,and given you some important questions to ask yourself. I do hope you come to the correct conclusions and make the right decision.

Just make sure not to confuse morality for salvation. A lot of really good moral people aren't saved. Some of them were just taught to be good people by their parents. Conversely, a lot of really crappy people are newly saved just working on having their minds renewed and waiting for fruit to grow.

See my post above for further explanation.

Does your post mean Galatians is for the Jews and not for Christians too?

So Jack following the new covenant instruction introduced by Jesus himself to 'love one another' is nothing but menstrual rags value to God?

IIRC, God does ask man to do things that please God, but any such works (like the example set by the Good Samaritan and which Jesus instructed others to follow)
only have menstrual rag value?....although good works don't find a person favor with God, Im not so sure God devalues such good works expected of man by God,
to the extent you suggest.

Then I suggest you read Romans chapter 3 and Isaiah 64:6

What I suggest is that all these things you hold dear mean nothing at all unless they come from a relationship with God. To obey the commandment is not to be saved. You cannot be saved by obeying the commandments. The commandments were only given to show you how sinful you are,and to prove to you that you need to rely on a sacrifice for sin,that sacrifice being Jesus.

There is even a law that says if you break one tiny law ,you are guilty of breaking every one.God didn't want you to think you could pass with a grade of 99%. God wants your whole reliance on Jesus as your sacrifice for sin,and therefor your savior.

Now mind that I said keeping the law cannot save you,but once you are saved the Holy Spirit will guide you ,if you allow him,to obey God's laws. They are not for salvation though. They are only to be obeyed because they are the best way to live and have a happy and fruitful life.

What you are not to do is to judge your relationship with God or your salvation on how well you or anyone else keeps his commandments. To do so is self effort and a way to look to yourself,rather than Jesus, for your salvation. The first sin was the sin of self effort. Adam and Eve were tempted to make themselves like God through their own effort. Satan said to them,"If you will do this thing,you will be like God."

In Galatians Paul is speaking to Jews who have become Christians but are falling back into the law as their guide. Do you think as a Christian his warnings not to rely on the law could have any significance for you?

Conversely,in Hebrews Paul is calling it "willful sin" for a Jew who has heard the Gospel,and tasted of the truth,to go back into animal sacrifice. He is telling them that if they will not accept the sacrifice of Jesus ,there remains no more sacrifice.Heb.10:26
Don't you see how you completely take his words out of context if you claim that the " willful sin" Paul is speaking of is any sin a Christian does on purpose? The only way you could commit the "willful sin" Paul is speaking of is to go back to animal sacrifice because you think Jesus wasn't the sacrifice for your sin. That's why verse 29 applies and you would have "trodden underfoot the Son Of God and counted his blood an unholy thing",because you wouldn't accept his blood for your sin.

YOU may have got that message, but I got the one where he is sick to death of lying ped sponges doing as they will with impunity, I also got that he is very much in support of the Christian faith and it's adherents.

Discuss it further with this fellow.

CurDog,

I must ask you; What was your purpose in posting this?

I fear it does more harm than good. What possible, positive outcome can result from this? What was your motivation?

While I was not a member of FBC when "Trump's Preacher" was there I remember the homosexual book ordeal. While I personally don't think it was done in the best way, I do think you have to give the guy credit for being willing to step out and make a stand. I don't recall ANY other preacher in the area backing him up. They all remained politically correct and silent.

Dr. Jeffress is quite outspoken and therefor much criticized. For an example, have you ever seen his message on "America Is A Christian Nation" ? Wonderful and full of facts and it put the antis into fits of rage.

In any case I hope that in the future you consider what harm can be done to the faith when publically criticizing a mere man that you don't like.

The tongue is an evil member.

I don't believe a letter written by St Paul to a church in Rome gives President Trump the authority for a preemptive strike on North Korea, and that's what Jeffress is touting. That's the primary reason for starting the thread.

Maybe you think that Ringman would make a good National Security Advisor to Trump. If you do, that's your prerogative, but I think not.

Trumps authority comes from the office he was elected to subject to Constitutional constraints.

Funny how out of all the Pastors in Wichita Falls, Jeffress was the only one doing the right thing about the book on lesbian parents.

I'm sure you find me too critical in my supposition? When a man tells me what he will do, as if it's proof of his salvation,and there is no mention at all of Christ, I would be lax in my duty to that man unless I asked some hard questions.

Mr. Clark, you sound like someone who I'd be pleased to have as my pastor.

As for those worried about how much income a pastor has, I'd just remind you that the pastor doesn't set his own salary. There is usually a board of directors, deacons, who approve the budget of the local church. Some of you sound like liberal Democrats railing about income inequality.

You really believe a preacher from Wichita Falls, TX can convince the President of the US to preemptively strike a country? That's quite a reach.

I agree with you regarding Mr. Clark. I would enjoy his company and would learn from his wisdom, I'm sure. You are confusing those who are bound and determined to be critical with facts regarding preachers and income and they won't stand for that. Your post was spot-on. Thanks.

Anybody else notice a pattern with regard to curdog's posts re: anything to do with Christianity?

Ironically enough I agree with the original assertion re: the pastor & Trump, although I doubt Trump gives a rat's rear end to what any pastors or anyone else might have to say about a decision he has to make.

Amazing how anti-Christian professing Christians can be in such a public way. As my original response contends, just seems so counter productive if the glory of Christ is one's goal.

Two things....

1. Pastors fall short and are fully sinners just like the rest of us.

2. Most pastors can keep a better crowd than Jesus did, and that scares me about what's being taught.

So it is all right for you to criticize a Christians action (Curdog) but wrong for Curdog to criticize a Cristian action? miles

Since you mentioned irony........ funny how we criticize the "Muslim community" for not calling out their radical imams, but when a Christian calls out a grandstanding preacher, he gets kicked off the cheerleading squad.

At its core, Christianity is a relationship between a man and his Creator and secondly his relationship to his fellow humans, not just his fellow Christians.

No way to know for sure, and it is not my motivation, but I suspect I might do a little better job than a bible thumper when it comes to getting an unbeliever to take a second look at Jesus.

You got all that from reading the Bible?

A guy I shared a hangar with used to say..."The best time to make a deal is Sunday morning, because all the crooks are in Church"

I still find that hilarious!

Most of the Churches around here are strictly money making machines...decent people but if the money aspect was taken away their "never-ending faith" would end, guaranteed.

R_H_Clark,

Some of your thoughts remind me of Joseph Prince. God gives him insights that I have not received. Same with some of your stuff.

Being less crazy, having less than 6 ex-wives and not being an alcoholic will garner more unbelievers to take a second look

I appreciate that comment. I will continue to hope and believe that God will give you the same insights. I do believe you to be an honest man,even if I think sometimes misguided,but then couldn't the same be said at times about most all of us? I will try very hard to have more patience and kindness toward everyone,even those ,or really especially those,I disagree with. You have helped me in that area,if nothing else.

Yes Sir.
Not only from just reading the KJV,but from reading several translations and a lot of years diligently studying the original texts,not just a quick translation from a Strong's,or Vine's,but also with help from the most respected Greek and Hebrew scholars since the turn of the century. I have a long way to go I know, and I don't mean to sound conceited, but it is only in the last 10 to possibly 7 years that I feel like I can better see the whole,rather than just concentrating on the individual parts. I do my best to interpret scripture so that all scripture makes sense without seeming contradictions. When I find a seeming contradiction,I decide that it is my understand that is in opposition,rather than the Word. Sometimes I find flaws in translation,and sometimes I see that I have not rightly divided the Word,taking into consideration the different dispensations or Covenants, or even the specific intent of the author. I'm not saying that I can't ever be wrong.I'm just outlining my process in the hope that it will be some benefit to someone.

A few things here.

1) I already said I agree with you on the preacher, and also as I already said it isn't this one thread that caused me to say what I said. It's the sum of your threads on Christians. You seem to enjoy lamenting the self-righteousness of others on a regular basis. Rarely do I hear you say anything positive.

2) fellow Christians are fellow humans... even the Great Christian Himself was a human...

3) "bible thumper" is a relative term that you seem to bandy about whenever someone chooses to suggest you're wrong about something. Just because you can get non-Christians agreeing with you about what dirtbags other Christians are doesn't mean you're getting anyone to take a second look at Jesus. It could just be that they share your tendency cited in my bullet point #1

Show me some not preaching the false doctrine of tithing.

I vaguely remember something about "judge not".

And I hereby absolve you of any geis you may feel to point out any or all of my short-comings or foibles you feel you do not like or find do not stand up to your lofty ideal.


I also shall decline to point out that you are a judgie hypocrite that feels he is above the teachings he so espouses.


Have a nice day.

No Sir,in that you are incorrect. I am not a hypocrite who feels above anyone. I do however understand that you are hostile toward God or anyone associated with him,so I know why you would say such a thing without knowing what you are talking about.

Just an FYI that you would know if you were a bible student. God does not tell us that we cannot judge between good and evil,or what is right or wrong. What God does not want Christians to do, is to Judge someone worthy of Heaven or Hell.

I do also wish you a nice day.

This sure sounds a bit arrogant. You are discounting all those folks who study God's Word and use only the Bible. How in the world do you decided what the "the specific intent of the author" is? I do it by accepting God is the same yesterday, today and forever. And the Holy Spirit will guide into all Truth without someone teaching (1 John 2:27). When the apostles wrote, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit they were writing to the WHOLE church, not some local congregation that died a couple thousand years ago. Therefore what they wrote is instructions and commands for us to obey today.

it is hoped the various components of the christian tradition, along with the "competitors" such as the islamacists, and hebrews close to home, along with the siddha folks, the buddhists, shintoists, taoists, etc. are ever going to join together in common interest, to discuss the challenge of the human condition on the earth, and what to do about it. that is, how best to proceed?

and let's add-in the native americans, pagans, etc. etc.

folks, is it time to awaken, or just keep slogging away in our sleep? your perspective is asked, and is actually required.

no offense meant to anyone in particular, or in general.

humanity is tired of all the bs. ya know?

The Rev. R Sirico certainly is a self involved egotistical jack ass, reminds me a lot of one particular member of the fire.

So few believers know how to approach a non believer.

You speak 100% TRUTH.

I was staying in the Detroit, MI, area a couple years ago at a Red Roof Inn while on a business trip. As I was moving into my room, I noticed the room next to mine had the door open and a 40-something fella was sitting at his desk typing away on his laptop. I asked him if the free WiFi was any good and he replied "Yeah it's pretty fast" and we struck up a quick friendship. He told me he was from Oklahoma working as an interim pastor at a local church for a couple months. From what I could tell, this guy only spent 1 or 2 hours per week giving sermons at the church and the rest of his time was spent lounging around in his hotel room. The weekly cost to stay at this Red Roof was about $500 per week, so I assume the church was paying all his travel costs plus a salary. Not a bad job for maybe spending 3 or 4 hours typing up a sermon and then a couple hours on a Sunday morning delivering the sermon. I saw a couple Backpage escorts visit his room for some naughty fun so he was enjoying the perks of a husband being away from the wifey with a nice chunk of spending cash to expense out to the congregation!

Just like Commie Trump --- these pastors are the biggest hypocrite liars and scammers you will ever meet.

Whistle-blowers are typically ostracised for being so,
If you are a cop that calls out dirty cops
a union delegate that calls out union corruption,
a doctor that calls out another doctors negligence.
a politician calling out people involved with the mob,
a Corporate board member that calls out its corruption,
etc, etc, etc.
it can smother or end your career which then effects ones family, or even prove to be perilous to ones life.

similarly in regards to religious congregations, many would prefer to go along
with the sharade,rather than risk community rejection and vindictiveness, etc
God didnt call them sheep for nothing....

over a billion catholics/ two billion christians in the world, how many have bothered
to speak out against all the various christian churchs involved in the long term
systematic rape and molestation of children by their faiths vicars, priests and associates?
not even a high rank cardinal vatican appointee currently on 29 child sex charges is
enough to make them errupt.
High ranking police that had close associations with pedophile clergy and conveniently
terminated sexual crime investigations into them, dont seem to be made accountable by
the justice system,...which shows how deep the rot is in LE and high political circles.

You get nowhere near the amount of critical responses on social media about the
church pedophilia issue then you do about something on islam....many christians
choose to remain silent about such serious transgression...its a common natural
tendency for any group to protect their own image and self- interests....dont under-
estimate herd mentality.

One may not actuallly hold certain good works that one conducts as near and dear, in fact it might down right annoy/not agree with
a person to do certain compassionate acts that require doing but the person does them anyway, knowing they are correct.

Re: 'relationship with God', what the good Samaritan did was considered proper and valued by Jesus, but I cannot identify anywhere
in scripture where its says the samaritan already had or needed such a pre-requisit relationship with God before doing it to the pleasure,
satisfaction and approval of God.



Salvation is an optional matter is it not?....did not Jesus still value the work of the good samaritan regardless of whether he was
seeking salvation or not?




Judge all you want, just as long as one first applies the same level of judgment to oneself before applying it to others.


Matthew 7 3:5

#3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
#4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
#5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Ringman,

I don't see where Clark sounds arrogant at all. I see him admitting he doesn't have all the answers and can learn from other's who've studies the subject, especially as it related to the translation of ancient documents written in varying dialects of Greek and Hebrew. Although I disagree with his underlying presupposition, to me it sounds like he's employing a reasonable tool set in an attempt to apply an originality interpenetration of the Bible.

As a modern corollary, studying The Articles of Confederation add a great deal of contest in understanding the original intent of the U.S Constitution.

The question is "did Jesus value the work of the Samaritan regardless of whether he was seeking salvation or not?"

I don't think we are disagreeing so much as that we aren't approaching the question in the same way. We have value to Jesus even in our worst sins and at our lowest times. Jesus died for us when we were yet sinners. He values us so much that he is willing to die for us ,even when we are at our worst. I'm not trying to say that we are ever worthless to God.

What I am saying is that the things we do to try to please God,that are birthed out of ourselves,those things are worthless in that they cannot earn us any place with God. God is not interested in what I can do for Him. He doesn't need me,rather I'm the one who needs him. You have likely heard it said that God helps those who helps themselves,but that is not a scriptural truth.It's just a worldly saying that has sometimes been adopted by misguided people. The scriptural truth is that God helps those who trust in and have faith in Him. God wants us to rely only on him,to be totally dependent on him,because the truth is that we are.

There is only one thing,or person really, that stands between any of us and Hell,and his name is Jesus. There is not one single good act or a lifetime of good deeds that will make a single step in a person's life out of Hell,without Jesus. That's what I mean when I say that all those things we do ,no matter how well intended,are not worth a single thing. It's not that love shown for love's sake is worthless in itself, but as currency to be used to save your soul from Hell,it's not worth a used tampon.

I used the filthy rage and menstrual cloth analogy to strike your thinking,but that is exactly what Isaiah is saying in Isaiah 64:6. The "filthy rags" is what Isaiah calls our own righteousness before God. The words that the KJV translates as "filthy rags" is actually better translated as menstrual cloths.

You know what? There are a whole bunch of counterfeit $100 bills out in the world,but I've never turned down one that was given to me because there was a chance that it might be a fake. You know why? Because there's a lot more real ones out there than fakes.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, believers will be required to account of themselves as to what extent they performed good works in Christ’s name/service.
Jesus appointed on behalf of the father is explicitly going to confront one on the matter , but you say God is not interested?

Are not the 'rewards' God offers and says await a person, measured out according to the good works one conducted throughout their lives?

(Matthew 16:27)"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


If you were to come across a person in dire need like the Samaritan had, would God place more value on you telling him to seek salvation and follow christ
and then go on your way , or would he prefer you minimise any efforts at evangelism and instead conduct yourself like the good Samaritan?

There is danger in quoting single scriptures.

You are criticizing a heretic for heresy. That describes all protestant sects.

Like what?! Jesus quoted single Scripture to Satan.

So Protestant bashing is OK then?

I'll see your Pope and raise you one Billy Graham.

This^^^^.

My friend,you are mistaken about the value you place on works. I cannot expound the entire bible in this limited space to completely clarify your understanding. I suggest you do a through study of the difference between the old covenant which is no longer in effect and the new covenant of grace which we currently operate in.

As to your question about what I would do in the Good Samaritan's place you seem again to mistake the meaning of what I have said. In no way have I told you that good works are not important,or a good thing. They are the fruit that grows from a relationship with Jesus. They are beneficial to live the best life you can live while on this earth. Those works however are never to be considered as currency that will buy an admission ticket to Heaven.

I started this line of discussion in response to two posts,one from you and one from another gentleman. You both mentioned how parents never spoke of Jesus or did any of those things that you derided the Church goer's for. You both spoke of all the good works that both your parents were known for, and that yourselves intended to do as if placing much more importance on these works as evidence of salvation than anything else. What I have done is to try to explain that no matter how good works are,they are not ever, under any circumstances a ticket to Heaven when standing alone. Works are a response to salvation, but salvation is a man named Jesus. There is no other name in Heaven or earth by which men can be saved. Jesus and Jesus alone is both the beginning and the end of salvation.

The danger is quoting one scripture and it being taken out of context.

Can you sight an example or two?

There you go being a superior judgemental prick again, I definitely do believe.

Then I apologize. I thought you were an atheist. Still not nice to call people names,Mr.Pot.

Ah, but it is okay to look down on those you think do not believe as you do...very Christian of you, Mr Kettle.

I'm sorry you feel like I was looking down on someone. That's not how I intended it at all. If I see someone making a mistake that will cost them more than their life,I don't see it as looking down on them or denigrating at all to correct that mistake. To simply ignore them while thinking to myself that they didn't deserve the truth would be the judgmental thing to do. Anytime I see a man talking about what he will do to prove himself worthy of Heaven,without ever a mention of Jesus,I will correct his mistake and make no apologies for it. What I apologize for is if I gave any indication of any different intention.

What I was referring to is the danger in quoting a certain scripture alone, without using scripture in front of or behind it. I don't have a specific scripture that can't stand on its own but have always thought it could change the the apparent meaning of scripture if certain ones are taken out of context. I hope that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense to me and most anyone else who is honestly willing, and trying to learn.