So, was on a camping trip this weekend with a group of guys. One of the guys whom I had never met was talking about his time in the military as we were doing some target shooting. Said he was with military intelligence but had done 17 HALO jumps, 3 of which were combat. Was wounded in a ambush while serving in Bosnia, where there were 15 casualties in his "team". Each story seemed to get a bit more out of the realm of possibilities. Said he served from 1992-1996
Do guys in military intelligence typically go on HALO drops and combat to snatch the commander of a Serbian POW camp? I was thinking BS but did not want to call this guys out since I had just met him this weekend.
So, was on a camping trip this weekend with a group of guys. One of the guys whom I had never met was talking about his time in the military as we were doing some target shooting. Said he was with military intelligence but had done 17 HALO jumps, 3 of which were combat. Was wounded in a ambush while serving in Bosnia, where there were 15 casualties in his "team". Each story seemed to get a bit more out of the realm of possibilities. Said he served from 1992-1996
Do guys in military intelligence typically go on HALO drops and combat to snatch the commander of a Serbian POW camp? I was thinking BS but did not want to call this guys out since I had just met him this weekend.
When you encounter these people, it's best to keep handing them beer they didn't pay for and roll film with the iPhone.
Having not served, I didn't want to call this guy out right there but each story got a bit deeper. Then after seeing him shoot, I really didn't believe him
I'm pretty sure you do quite a few more then 17 jumps to get qualified in military HALO (I hated jumping and had no interest in going myself) wiki said 30 jumps per course to qualify MFF.
His dates of service give him 4 years active which is nowhere near enough time to meet the prequisites and qualify for the high speed intel units which might be even remotely connected to something like that.
We had one guy on my first team that couldn't shoot a pistol worth a hoot, but man could he run a M240.
He was probably a cook, or what was the MOS of those guys who set up the field showers? It's been my experience that the shorter they were in service, and the further removed from combat, the better their stories.
The US had people over there hunting war criminals in that time frame. There were also some "normal" MI guys, but they were well back from the tip of the spear.
HALO ops are expensive, complex, and dangerous, so they're reserved for times and places where you don't have good overland access. HALO plays a role, but it's not as widely used as people think. You also have to bear in mind that most of that time frame we were working with/for NATO and the UN, not running wide-open combat operations like we are now. A HALO drop under those conditions is a very big political and diplomatic deal, even more so when the goal is to capture foreign nationals. That's why the kind of people who do that kind of work don't talk about it much. Finally, when I was in, it was extremely unusual for a someone in a standard MI billet to get a slot to HALO school, but things may have changed, especially if he's a linguist. (If he's a native speaker of a language common in that area, then almost anything is possible.) If he actually had been to an accelerated MFF course and actually was on HALO status, then 17 jumps might be about right.
Whether jumps are logged as combat jumps or not can depend on a lot of things. It's possible to run a proficiency jump in an area that's technically a combat zone but where there's no real danger. That's considered a combat jump, and you get the same gold star on your wings that our forefathers got for jumping into Normandy. That said, other paratroopers consider anyone who wears a star awarded under those circumstances to be a sad, pathetic excuse for a man. Air Force folks may get some cool stuff, too, so they have incentive to support this kind of boondoggle. This happens a lot when REMF officers want to get a combat star on their wings at the end of a tour. A lot of times they'll need people to fill up the plane, and if you've got wings, you're voluntold to go.
Getting wounded in an ambush is possible, even far from what passes for the front lines.
The term "team" is loosely defined. It used to refer to a Special Forces A-Detachment, but those often get augmented with lots of non-SF people. An ODA starts out with 12 people, and adding three isn't uncommon. But for all 15 to get hurt in one ambush is 100% casualties, and that's a BIG deal. It's more likely that 15 people out of a specific bunch got hurt in a series of missions that took place over several months or a year.
As for snatching prisoners, umm, no. He MAY have been on the perimeter or watching the action on a screen in a bunker, but chances are very slim that he was in there kicking doors with people who do that for a living.
My guess is that your guy may have done some or even most of this stuff, but he's probably stringing a bunch of stuff together, enriching it, and claiming that it all happened at the same time.
Perhaps I'm the odd one out, but the only time military comes up in conversation is if someone asks, then it's 'yes I was in the military'. I honestly don't recall spending more than 20 minutes of my entire life talking about 'work' outside of 'work'.
On the other hand, it seems chicks are ALWAYS talking about work.
It may have happened; Hillary was pinned down by sniper fire.
I was cleared of those charges I might add....
Two summers ago when I was in Florida, we went over to one our family friends, cousin's house.
he had an indoor pool.
since I was a veteran, he started talking up his military service after he'd had a few beers..
guess when he throws out military acronyms people don't know what they are but are easily impressed...
He was in ATC, then also was trained and assigned to G2, after that Ranger School, SF and Delta Force, then was assigned to Seal Team 6....
I couldn't believe it... I was sitting in the pool at the home of the other guy who had shot Osama Bin Laden...
His cousin, who is also a disabled Army Vet... told me that she hoped I didn't believe that BS..
I assured her, as soon as he said he was ATC, and then was assigned to G2 and then SF....it took a lot of my efforts to not be rude and laugh my ass off...
She asked me did I know what ATC was, she didn't... I told her when I served in a Chopper Unit, it stood for Always Taking Coffee.. but the Army called it Air Traffic Control...
on top of all of this, G2, SF, Ranger, Delta Force, Seal Team 6....
pretty impressive for a guy who served 4 years and got out of the Air Force as an E 3...Airman First Class...
Claimed he was now working for a big security firm doing highly classified stuff... Caroline told me he was a security Guard at the local mall...
for the life of me, I don't know what is in these guys head...they gotta be the biggest limpdicks on the planet...
Steelhead and I were out in far West Texas, mule deer hunting and the night before we were supposed to go to the property, we were in a bar, In Alpine, having pizza and beers. I won't get into what the guy said but it involved a story about the Navy Seals and my BS detector went off. I'm highly skeptical about any stories about that involve the Seals,Delta, or any other special forces. They are just so few of those guys and the chances of meeting one is almost nil. I later tried to verify what the guy said and believe that he was just a dude that was drunk and was looking for attention. I did work,very briefly, with some Seals when I was in the Navy and saw how much those guys shoot on a daily basis and think that most, if not all of them, have shot so much that most all of them can shoot far better than most of us. So I ain't buying the story about their lack of shooting skills. Those bastards can shoot.
We had a NBC E-3 assigned to us for a while who said he'd made E-6 in the Marines after 4 years and the decided to join the Army. Anyone who has served in the Marines will tell you making E-6 that fast is rare. We got tired of listening to it after a while and made him bring in his DD-214 and it turned out he was dropped out of the NG before even attending AIT.
Thing is he was a smart kid and a pretty decent NBC guy, but he was always trying to build himself up to be more than he was.
I ran into a guy last year that had a USMC t shirt on and he probably weighed close to 300 pounds and maybe no taller than 5'8" with a full beard.
Asked who he deployed with and told me straight up he was on leave and was currently deployed with Force Recon in Afghanistan. I told him I guess they don't monitor the PFT in recon anymore and he asked what the PFT was.....My hero.
MY Neighbor Told me He was a Helicopter Mechanic in Vietnam......He can not install a set of plugs in his own car or rebuild a Carb....I found out the other day he was a Cook in the Army..
" he probably weighed close to 300 pounds and maybe no taller than 5'8" with a full beard. "
And that would describe this gentleman as well, maybe add 25-30 lbs.
I didn't want to bust this guy's balls as he was a nice guy and a pastor now as well. Just too many things in too short of a time frame as he is only 44 years old but had also worked for the NSA, while being addicted to drugs/EtOH. Trained service dogs for the PTSD patients for the VA (after he received one himself) etc.
ah yes, interesting if one was to know someone that was in on the pablo deal, and in bosnia. which leads me to say the original subject of the post is a goofus. I have/had/not so much now a friend served in vietnam. He was fond of talking about his experiences with the hill people, special forces, and the like. I asked him one day at lunch what the caliber was of a m16. He did not know. Truth was he was a supply officer way behind the lines, our lines that is.
There is a quiet little guy here locally, who runs a trailer company. New and used. Drinks way too much, and slowly dying. You would never know his history, or the chest full of medals and ribbons he has. There is a dust covered display case high up on one wall of the office, and you wouldn't even notice, unless someone told you about him. He never talks about it.
"Most, not all, but most people I have known in military intelligence sit behind a desk."
That is what I was thinking. I could see this guy as a computer person but doesn't really seem to be the "in the field" type.
I have tried to find out about any U.S casualties in the Bosnia operation and it doesn't appear that there are very many, certainly not a group of 15 KIA/injured that I can find.
A lot of these guys are washouts from basic training. Some get into trouble at first duty assignment and get chaptered. We got back from Afghanistan 2010 and bunch of new privates there about 4-5 months later kid in my office, i had to sign his clearing papers, being escorted was a chapter kid pissed hot. At that point he been in the army 7 months and was getting booted out and going back home. I asked him what he was going to tell his parents he told he didn't know. I thought he was going to cry when I said he was not getting the gi bill either. So I imagine he went home telling some grand war stories about Afghanistan and how he was hurt in combat and the VA was screwing him over..
Do guys in military intelligence typically go on HALO drops and combat to snatch the commander of a Serbian POW camp? I was thinking BS but did not want to call this guys out since I had just met him this weekend.
Members of military special operations groups, (in general) don't generally talk about what they did, or did not do, other than amongst themselves....there are exceptions....
First casualty in Vietnam was an as Air Force MI Sergeant.
A significant number of MI slots are off the books.
From the article about first casualty in VN ... " ... Fifty years ago, 25-year-old [Tom] Davis, a Tennessee Tech engineering student, joined the Army and went to Vietnam on a secret mission.
Davis was in Vietnam intercepting communist radio signals and alerting the south Vietnamese so they could target and destroy those operations. ..."
When I got out of the military in 1992 I was hanging out with my cousin and some of his friends one night just relaxing and drinking beer. One of the guys had heard that I had just gotten out and started telling me horror stories of being in Vietnam killing children with bombs strapped to them, etc. I didnt know the guy and really didnt pay him any mind. Later that night one of the guys pulled me aside and told me that was his father telling the tales and dont pay attention to him because he was discharged in basic training after he was drafted and never went anywhere. I guess he just needed to make himself look impressive.
First casualty in Vietnam was an as Air Force MI Sergeant.
A significant number of MI slots are off the books.
From the article about first casualty in VN ... " ... Fifty years ago, 25-year-old [Tom] Davis, a Tennessee Tech engineering student, joined the Army and went to Vietnam on a secret mission.
Davis was in Vietnam intercepting communist radio signals and alerting the south Vietnamese so they could target and destroy those operations. ..."
I believe he was ASA (Army Security Agency).
L.W.
But, but, what about James B. McGovern jr. (Aka Earthquake McGoon). Doesnt he count?
Most, not all, but most people I have known in military intelligence sit behind a desk.
At NSA headquarters there is a Wall with a few hundred names, in an area not open to the public. There is a replica at the National Cryptologic Museum outside the gate.
Those whose names are on the wall weren't sitting behind any desk. In addition to the ASA soldier Leanwolf mentioned, there are members of the crews of the USS Pueblo and Liberty, as well as several aircraft shot down.
The museum is well worth a visit for anyone interested in a little known part of history.
Do guys in military intelligence typically go on HALO drops and combat to snatch the commander of a Serbian POW camp? I was thinking BS but did not want to call this guys out since I had just met him this weekend.
Members of military special operations groups, (in general) don't generally talk about what they did, or did not do, other than amongst themselves....there are exceptions....
Yea, something about classification, and National Secrets etc, kind of makes it hard to discuss with the general public.
Most, not all, but most people I have known in military intelligence sit behind a desk.
At NSA headquarters there is a Wall with a few hundred names, in an area not open to the public. There is a replica at the National Cryptographic Museum outside the gate.
Those whose names are on the wall weren't sitting behind any desk. In addition to the ASA soldier Leanwolf mentioned, there are members of the crews of the USS Pueblo and Liberty, as well as several aircraft shot down.
The museum is well worth a visit for anyone interested in a little known part of history.
Paul
Used to work with a guy who had retired from the US Army after 20+ years. Pretty nice easy going fellow and a no BS type person. He didn't mind talking some about his years spent in the service in general but not much on specific details other than he was a recruiter the last few years before retiring. One night at work we were talking and he told me he spent a tour in Vietnam assigned to ASA who was handling electronic surveillance for NSA as NSA was not supposed to be in country. He said that most of his duties were working as a go-fer, doing physical grunt work and security for the real ASA high tech people. I asked him what happened when one of their guys was injured or killed? He said that that rarely ever happened but when it did their official records showed them as assigned to Signal Corps.
The Tier 1 units like Seal Tm 6 and Delta are routinely augmented by MI types and other specialists. Normal SOF units now have specialty MI type units and teams and there are several unknown large MI type units that use SOF operators running around since early 80s. The trend has been to more augmentation from specialty personnel, like PJs, combat controllers, linguists, EOD and MI types etc.
Very few halo classes have graduated with as little as 17 jumps when it used to be at Fort Bragg but that was 20 years ago but never with as little as 14. Weather and clearance for the altitude was the problem from DC Air Control. Just was hard to get the clearance to go above 15,000 at times and we jumped up to 30,000 feet. That is why it was moved it to Yuma AZ and now every class easily gets 20 plus jumps.
You would be surprised at the number of HALO and HAHO (High Altitude High Opening) jumps that have been conducted in combat in the last 15 years. It still is an excellent method of infiltration. I know small teams have jumped and landed at 14,500 on a mountain top in combat in recent years. Expense is not a criteria if the mission calls for it and actually not much more expensive for the actual jump than a static line. Once the person is trained (that is the huge exense), you are still jumping from normall same A/C just at different altitude and different parachutes and equipment.
The Tier 1 guys routinely tandem jump w/ ancillary specialist personnel that are deemed mission essential by someone. Dogs are often mission essential and have their own goggles. Spec Ops and M.I. have shared many missions, google Combat Support Activity and The Army of Northern Virginia.
From a linguist/Navy perspective - we didn't teach linguists to jump, we taught SEALs to speak the language.
Much better chance of the student passing.
I was an older student at DLI and thus spent most of my time with other, older sailors. A few SEALs and an EOD guy. There to learn languages as it's easier than the other way around. The army MI types I was around were all prior Russian lings who spent most of their time not doing language things or MI things with their first unit.
That is a good story but that is about it. Navy goes to school at Bragg for basic jump and the rest is within the Navy at Miramar. Tell me how many SEALs burned in anywhere else. The systems are completely different between Navy and others. I wouldn't jump with a CYPRRs if you paid me.
What Unit and where were you stationed ?--- Their answer very often is--- " Top Secret ,can't talk about It " Or I was all over Vietnam. --------- Hand full of snipers that did not want to talk to much about their choice of weapon. The John Wayne Airborne Ranger from Jersey I know turned 61 years old in Feb. 2017. His Vietnam Stories predate his age. Web
So, was on a camping trip this weekend with a group of guys. One of the guys whom I had never met was talking about his time in the military as we were doing some target shooting. Said he was with military intelligence but had done 17 HALO jumps, 3 of which were combat. Was wounded in a ambush while serving in Bosnia, where there were 15 casualties in his "team". Each story seemed to get a bit more out of the realm of possibilities. Said he served from 1992-1996
Do guys in military intelligence typically go on HALO drops and combat to snatch the commander of a Serbian POW camp? I was thinking BS but did not want to call this guys out since I had just met him this weekend.
I can verify with others (like my MFF-I buddies) but as far as I know, there were no combat HALO drops during the 92-96 timeframe, much less three of them
So, was on a camping trip this weekend with a group of guys. One of the guys whom I had never met was talking about his time in the military as we were doing some target shooting. Said he was with military intelligence but had done 17 HALO jumps, 3 of which were combat. Was wounded in a ambush while serving in Bosnia, where there were 15 casualties in his "team". Each story seemed to get a bit more out of the realm of possibilities. Said he served from 1992-1996
Do guys in military intelligence typically go on HALO drops and combat to snatch the commander of a Serbian POW camp? I was thinking BS but did not want to call this guys out since I had just met him this weekend.
I can verify with others (like my MFF-I buddies) but as far as I know, there were no combat HALO drops during the 92-96 timeframe, much less three of them
Poser
And it's more common for MI guys to wear air assault badge than jump wings, but I know some who have both.
" he probably weighed close to 300 pounds and maybe no taller than 5'8" with a full beard. "
And that would describe this gentleman as well, maybe add 25-30 lbs.
I didn't want to bust this guy's balls as he was a nice guy and a pastor now as well. Just too many things in too short of a time frame as he is only 44 years old but had also worked for the NSA, while being addicted to drugs/EtOH. Trained service dogs for the PTSD patients for the VA (after he received one himself) etc.
He's a pastor and telling these stories?
that is pretty depressing...
the "Send me $20 and I'll make ALL your prayers come true!" type of pastor?
First, Thank you Vietnam vets for your service. Most of you were sent somewhere you did not want to go, to do things you did not want to do.
Your country called, you answered that call and did you job with honor. Some did not appreciate that, I believe most did.
Not exactly on topic. I worked for a set of twins that served as a scout/sniper team in Vietnam. They got a waver to bypass the Sullivan Act and served together. I have seen a newspaper article to confirm this fact. Not every thing that sounds like BS is.
Anyway, those two never really talked about battle, just funny or weird things that hapoened. The closest they ever came, was a story that started, " we had just been in a firefight" then the funny part.
" he probably weighed close to 300 pounds and maybe no taller than 5'8" with a full beard. "
And that would describe this gentleman as well, maybe add 25-30 lbs.
I didn't want to bust this guy's balls as he was a nice guy and a pastor now as well. Just too many things in too short of a time frame as he is only 44 years old but had also worked for the NSA, while being addicted to drugs/EtOH. Trained service dogs for the PTSD patients for the VA (after he received one himself) etc.
He's a pastor and telling these stories?
that is pretty depressing...
the "Send me $20 and I'll make ALL your prayers come true!" type of pastor?
Sometimes the military itself aids in the delusions of it's members. For instance, I know a Vietnam era Navy guy who was credited with being in a combat zone, but was never any closer to Vietnam than 10 miles off shore. But he has that ribbon to help with his stories.
I know an USAF enlisted desk jockey who was allowed a ride on a cargo plane that made a drop in the desert during the first gulf war. Plane never even came to a complete stop, yet he was credited with having been in the war zone on his records. A couple of minutes over the runway and he's a war hero. He is now an officer in the local VFW.
I myself have many stories of my service time during the Vietnam War. However, many of my stories are funny and some are down right embarrassing. The closest I got to Nam was Turkey and I still deal with some guilt over all the fun I was having while others were being shot at. Best, most fun time of my life!
Sometimes the military itself aids in the delusions of it's members. For instance, I know a Vietnam era Navy guy who was credited with being in a combat zone, but was never any closer to Vietnam than 10 miles off shore. But he has that ribbon to help with his stories.
I know an USAF enlisted desk jockey who was allowed a ride on a cargo plane that made a drop in the desert during the first gulf war. Plane never even came to a complete stop, yet he was credited with having been in the war zone on his records. A couple of minutes over the runway and he's a war hero. He is now an officer in the local VFW.
I myself have many stories of my service time during the Vietnam War. However, many of my stories are funny and some are down right embarrassing. The closest I got to Nam was Turkey and I still deal with some guilt over all the fun I was having while others were being shot at. Best, most fun time of my life!
Hell LBJ got a Silver Star for taking a ride (hiding and crapping himself) in a single bomber run out of Australia in WWII!
The term “need to know” is over-used I know, but perhaps ‘risk in knowing’ is more apropos. From my military experience, when someone said “you don’t wanna know” they were usually serious and right. True ‘black’ operators don’t give a [bleep] about the big picture or anything else except what is directly related to their mission - they don’t want to be bothered with it and they damn sure don’t want anything to keep them from doing what they choose to do best. These guys worked hard just for the “privilege”. Each one always wants to be in on the next op and will do all he can to make sure there are no ‘disqualifiers’ that could keep them from participating. Knowing too much of the right/wrong kind of info could make anyone too ‘valuable’ to risk in (likely) contact operations. For these and operational reasons, unlike their portrayal in movies, operators are in the habit of keeping their mouths shut and seeming unremarkable, if not totally anonymous - the last thing you'll hear is him bragging about his work. Last, most declassification protocols measure sensitivity “half-lifes” in overly cautious terms like 50 years and more, so security restrictions tend to outlive those who ‘were there’. Sharing classified info to those not cleared for it will get your ass burned big time - whether you’re still in uniform or not.
So the outrageous war stories not withstanding, I call ‘bullshit’ and hope his rotten ass is 'outed'.
I don't mind someone embellishing a bit with a story but the number and details of these stories had my BS detector up. Luckily not a pastor at my church but it does make me wonder a bit about the mental health of someone if they are telling such crap, especially someone working with youths.
Most, not all, but most people I have known in military intelligence sit behind a desk.
At NSA headquarters there is a Wall with a few hundred names, in an area not open to the public. There is a replica at the National Cryptologic Museum outside the gate.
Those whose names are on the wall weren't sitting behind any desk. In addition to the ASA soldier Leanwolf mentioned, there are members of the crews of the USS Pueblo and Liberty, as well as several aircraft shot down.
The museum is well worth a visit for anyone interested in a little known part of history.
IIRC knowing too much is one reason they did not want General Doolittle flying in the pacific. Considering what I have read of him, I am sure he had already made the decision to not be captured.
WWII made for some tough folks, as have all life and death combat activities.
WE ALL owe all VETS a big ol THANK YOU, no matter their position because every position in the military has a function in the wheel of support and combat activities
Sometimes the military itself aids in the delusions of it's members. For instance, I know a Vietnam era Navy guy who was credited with being in a combat zone, but was never any closer to Vietnam than 10 miles off shore. But he has that ribbon to help with his stories.
I know an USAF enlisted desk jockey who was allowed a ride on a cargo plane that made a drop in the desert during the first gulf war. Plane never even came to a complete stop, yet he was credited with having been in the war zone on his records. A couple of minutes over the runway and he's a war hero. He is now an officer in the local VFW.
I myself have many stories of my service time during the Vietnam War. However, many of my stories are funny and some are down right embarrassing. The closest I got to Nam was Turkey and I still deal with some guilt over all the fun I was having while others were being shot at. Best, most fun time of my life!
Ya know, all of us who served had two things in common...
we went were we were sent... and we did the job we were trained to do...
We all can't be combat heroes...
At the same time, many who did serve in combat, are the heroes to those of us who did serve but didn't have to get shot at...
Some of the biggest down to earth heroes you ever could meet, and the silent guys who acknowledge putting it all on the line in a combat zone... but come out of it with the attitude, we did what we had to do...
I've got a lot of friends on the campfire here who have served, and I'll admit, most don't have a clue of how much respect I have for them... and how much a hero they are to me personally.
and others, are just local heroes... EMTs, Paramedics, Firefighters or Firemen...LEOs...
Anyone who has served their community, state, our country have my sincere gratitude....
From a linguist/Navy perspective - we didn't teach linguists to jump, we taught SEALs to speak the language.
That sounds congruent with a case I will share of an approaching 6'4" african American in Bosnia with SF body ink markings and capable of not only speaking Bosnian, but actually fluently speaking the local dialect, the locals were mighty impressed.
He seemed to be masquerading in some sort of NGO position in charge of some supposedly international effort fly-in 'aid workers'.
Have not been able to Google up any kind of account where we had 15 US military killed/wounded in a single episode in the Bosnian conflict. Of course, it could be classified. Would have thought that would make news given the peace keeping nature of our involvement
Having not served, I didn't want to call this guy out right there but each story got a bit deeper. Then after seeing him shoot, I really didn't believe him
It's a sad fact that you can't sit at a bar without finding yourself between a former Seal on one side and a Ranger on the other -- unless one of them was an astronaut.
Wannabes are sad, pathetic creatures but they deserve to be crushed, if only to uphold the honor we hold for real warriors.
When we entered WW II after Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japs, Johnson had himself appointed as a Lt. Commander, US Navy Reserves and later secured a very cushy and safe job in Australia. Being on the plane was the only time he ever was in any kind of "combat" area and he was never shot at. He awarded himself the Silver Star for that flight, in which he did nothing but shake with fear.
that's cold blooded!!! But funny!!