I shot my first deer (a whitetail doe) with my 45 Colt Ruger Bisley revolver on Thanksgiving. I have killed 3 black bears with it in the past with hotter loads (Beartooth 345 grain cast bullet at about 1170 fps). On this deer I was using the Lead Head 270 grain cast Keith bullet at about 1000-1100 fps. It worked just fine but there was no blood trail. Fortunately I was easily able to find the deer. I was hunting from a tree stand and the deer was 55 yards away at the shot. The bullet broke her onside leg bone above the knee, put a hole through the top of her heart and lodged in a tree behind her.

I now live in SW Michigan and we cannot use high powered rifles. I think next year I might get a 45 Colt lever action but wonder if there would be a better bullet choice that would more likely give a good blood trail in case that were needed to help find the deer. I suspect that had I hit the deer higher in the chest through the lungs instead of hitting her in the top of the heart I may well have seen a blood trail. As it was with the hole in her heart the blood just pumped out into her chest cavity. Do you all think I should switch bullets or just try to not hit the heart and only get lungs? If a bullet switch is recommended what bullet should I use?

Thanks and good hunting!

I'd stick with what is working for you. I have seen Keith style hard cast LSWC go end to end through big hogs. Killed 'em grave yard dead.

Hornady XTP is favored by many whitetail hunters that I know.

Hardcast

This...

A 250-255gr PB cast bullet over 8gr. Unique will do the job. Faster and heavier will, too, but it doesn't have to be.

As with real estate, it's all about location, location, location. Nothing wrong with your current bullet/load choice at all.

Ed

Agree with Ed & Sam. Hard to beat a cast bullet for penatraition and a better chance of a exit wound. Which gives a better blood trail should they run. I use 8 grains of Unique in my original Colt SAA, and 10 grains of Unique in my Ruger Revolvers. And a really like a 260 gr WFN LBT hard cast bullet the best. But a good ole Keith style SWC will work well too.

300-325 WFN pushed by H110/296

can't add anything better then all the above

That would be my vote as well, Hornady's XTP bullets a incredible.

One of THESE Will do the trick. They've been sellin fast out of Here.
You can also get a 450 Bushmaster, AR 15, if ya chose.

Been shooting this 300 gr cast mold for sometime in my '66 it actually drops 315 grs at 30:1 alloy and really packs a punch over 6.5 grs Unique..Velocity is very modest but constant at 1040 fps.and bangs steel at 100 with authority. Lots of good bullets out there these days to make the Colt sing but I'll always prefer a good cast for penetration. This profile also feeds 100% better than the 255 Keith I started with.

You can use the 450 Bushmaster and would find the Ruger American very accurate with the 250 grain FTX load. That round has a very good reputation for making deer DRT.

For the 45 Colt, which I have used in both pistol and rifle, you won't beat a 300 grain Lee RF gas checked with a full charge of H110 or LiL' Gun.

Absolutely nothing wrong with a 255 SWC at about 1000 fps. Can you load bigger, heavier, faster? Yes, but the deer won't be any deader because you do. A lever gun may feed better with a roundnose flatpoint, but that's not an issue in a revolver. Your bullets don't have to be "harder than a mother-in-law's stare" either. Muzzleloader guys hunting with pure lead have been tipping deer over for several centuries with bullets the same weight and speed you're shooting.

That's what I was going to say.

Looking good Woody! wish my SAA would shoot the heavies to the sights, the 250 gr round flat point does pretty well, no leading and 960 fps with Holy Black.

What Rocky said!

If you didn't have much blood trail, it's not the bullet's fault... and it's actually not something to find "fault" with anyway. A shot through the lungs, even if it punches a big hole, may not leave much blood behind, because the holes are relatively high in the deer's chest. By the time the chest fills up with blood to the level of the holes, the deer is almost, or actually, dead.

I've killed a lot of deer and hogs with the 45 Colt. I used to think I needed a big, heavy bullet at supersonic speeds to kill quadrupeds. Turns out I was wrong, and that a standard factory 45 Colt load (255 gr lead bullet) travelling at 850-900 fps will kill just as well as a loudenboomer. Shot placement is the key, not bullet, caliber, or gun.

I sure like the looks of these bullets, Woody. I've not got around to loading the box you sent me, but I'll get to that soon. I'm planning on using them on Axis does in a couple weeks.

Torg, thanks so much for the info on the Ruger 450 Bushmaster. I will seriously consider that.

i have some 300gr bear tooth i need to load.

That's a HARD bad assed bullet Roger, I shoot the cast performance 335's in my 454 full power loads, damn they plow.

I used the 255 rnfp, to get a deer once.
It turned into a huge goat rope. The kind where, if killing deer was like that normally,
I would quit hunting. After a lot of shots, I got the deer, but it was horrible.
Those hard round bullets made little pencil holes that closed behind the bullet.


The cluster was made worse by the bevel base basis leading my barrel so bad I couldn't
hit anything but body shots.

Several very poor decisions on my part, but I had been reading the glowing articles on cast bullets
and had just gotten this 45. Brian Pierce has often wrote how effective these bullets can be, and
the most certainly will kill. But so will full metal jackets, eventually.

I have mostly given up the handgun thing, but now 44 and 45's have a good meplat or jhp.

Remember, deer are not that thick. You don't need to be able to shoot through a tank.
But, you need to be making a hole that will do damage. It is a balance thing, I know several
guys that shoot 180 gr jhp in 44 mag. It is not a penetrator, but it goes deep enough to kill
our deer, and does it quickly.

I'll clamber up on my box of Tide again...

This "Harder is Better" idea is horse puckey. It probably started when bullet casters started adding tin to lead and ended up with harder bullets. But why did they add tin? NOT to make harder bullets, but to make the mould fill out better. Lead/tin alloy fills out small details like crimp and lube grooves a lot better than pure lead. Better formed bullets shot better, and so began the harder is better nonsense.

We now have cast bullets made of all kinds of alloys, up to and including silver, for Pete's sake. All vying to be harder than the other fellow's bullets. All while ignoring the fact that pure lead muzzleloading bullets continue to shoot well and kill well. And all while seeking better expansion in every other kind of bullet they shoot through the use of soft lead bullet cores.

Some times, I think we're just nuts.

A hardcast flat nosed bullet with a large meplat is a killing sombuck, you ought to give it a try sometime RR.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Don't overthink it, it's just a deer. How and where they're hit will determine blood trail. If it ain't broke (and it ain't) don't try to fix it.

You hit the nail on the head Rocky

Good luck Doc .. wanted to try them out on deer a few weeks back but didn't have a decent shot under 250 yds however they work well on song dogs !

I add silver for Vampires and Werewolves.

Yes indeed. This mania for "hard" cast bullets is mostly parroted by shooters with no casting experience and no knowledge of metallurgy. For handguns and pistol-caliber carbines, the hardest alloy you really can possibly need will have a Brinell Hardness Number of 14-16 at most. Yet many of the commercial "hard cast" bullets have BHN's of 22 and higher, which are more likely to leave lead streaks in your bore than a properly sized BHN 12 will ever do.

Rocky,
I understand that bullet hardness should be tied to intended velocity. Are there any easy rules of thumb as to how hard they should be and what alloy to use? Then there is the problem of knowing what your starting scrap lead is made of. Any guides for that?

Very nice, Woody! I really should buy an 1866... don't have one yet.

Barry, what Doc wrote is spot on regarding hardness. For decades, the ubiquitous wheelweight was just about the ideal bullet source material. They were by no means a uniform alloy, but they were usually a lead/tin mix that could be used as is, or mixed with pure lead to harden the pure a titch. Wheelweights are now almost extinct due to the "Lead is Evil" crowd.

I can offer no better source of cast bullet education than the Lyman manual, frankly. Their regular one contains both cast and jacketed data, but the Cast Bullet Manual is strictly lead.

Harder is better when needed. Pure lead will not hold up to the shear force from the faster twist rate and higher pressures of smokeless rounds that operate at higher pressures and have faster barrel twist than front stuffer charcoal burners. You can run pure lead in a 45 colt if you're using powder puff loads, but you'll need to bring the bhn up to somewhere between 8 and 13 as pressures and shear forces increase or you'll get leading and poor accuracy.

I've pushed plane based air cooled wheel weight bullets bhn ~13 with max charges of H-110 in the 357 mag and 480 Ruger and those are 40 kpsi (old school 357 loads in a blackhawk) the 357 loads were clocking 1500 fps, the 480's 1200 fps. Excellent accuracy and no leading in either gun. Properly fit bullets and good lube work wonders. The bullets penetrate just fine and expand a bit. If you're shooting hollowpoints you'll want to add some tin for ductility. Super hard bullets can fracture on bone. Medium hardness bullets will deform some but stay mostly in tact. You can water quench ww's and bring the bhn up to 18.

The problem is people were using commercial swaged bullets of bhn ~8 that have a smathering of lube, and pushing them well past their design limits. Instead of using bullets that were a bit harder to cure the problem, they went off the deep end to 20+ bhn bullets. Then it became a marketing ploy that these super hard bullets will penetrate like an ap round. Those of us who cast our own have learned that for top performance everything needs to be balanced, bullet shape, weight, alloy, hardness, size and lube.

IMHO revolvers round force one to choose an expanding bullet with that produces a large wound cavity with relatively shallow penetration, or a solid bullet that produces a smaller wound cavity but deep penetration. They simply lack the bullet velocity to provide both, which requires a rifle. A large meplat ~75% of bullet diameter will produce a decent wound channel and be accurate at longer ranges, smaller meplats are of no advantage, larger ones will result in bullets flying wild at longer ranges. So long as one understands the limitations of the bullet they use and places the shot accordingly or refrains from shooting as required, all is well. Just don't expect a revolver to kill like a high powered rifle, it isn't so it can't.

Back to the OP's problem of a scant blood trial, the main issue is the small exit hole most non-expanding bullets leave, unless they break ribs or other chest cage bones on exit. For the small type of WTD you're describing one of the bonded HP bullets - like the XTP or GDHP- will very likely penetrate enough to exit on a broadside shot through the ribs behind the shoulder and leave a larger exit wound that will provide a better blood trail.

The shot placement you described through "the top of the heart" I assume means you shot though the knob of the aorta and/or the pulmonary vessels. With respect to exanguinating hemorrhage, that's a more effective shot with a low velocity bullet than through the ventricles of the heart. The vessels in that area bleed continuously at high volume and reliably kill. It's my favorite bullet placement from any angle I can reach it.

More expansion with an exit wound on a fragile animal is the key to a better blood trail, IMHO YMMV.

Your comments about twist rate and pressures are something I overlooked, Lott. Thanks. We're in agreement about bullets in the BHN 12-14 range being all that's needed, though. Plus, unlike the super-hards, they offer some expansion/deformation, which is what the OP asked for to begin this thread.

There's one more reason why companies offer harder and harder bullets: they ship better. They can dump bullets into a plastic tub, turn them over to gorilla package handlers, bounce them over highways, and still have them arrive with few if any dings and gouges. It has nothing whatever to do with how they shoot or perform.

I agree with Rocky, A long time ago when my dad and I were pondering converting a couple of Bisleys to Linebaugh's, I called Mr. Linebaugh on the phone and spoke with him for quite awhile.

After talking about what we would probably do with the guns he gave me several handloads for the Smith's (his favorite pistol) as well as the Bisleys that he assured me would kill anything on this continent and then told me we had no need for his guns.

Repeatedly he told me his wife shot game at 100 yards with her 900 fps, 255 gr. SWC load and that he had shot completely through a bisons skull from top to bottom with same.(about 9 inches of bone, if I recall)

He said that when you got that 255 going 900 it just didn't stop till it hit the earth. No special bullets needed, just what you got the most accuracy from.

I had a handload for the revolvers that clocked out of the Marlin 1894 at 1100 fps. It was like shooting a rimfire, but did lead a little. Only killed one deer with it. My buddy shot it at about 45 yards, DRT.

Agreed commercial casters also choose their bullet lubes based on the ability to stay in the lube groove for shipment vs. how well it works to lube the bullet. My experience is if the lube won't leave the groove in shipment, it also won't leave the lube groove to lube the bullet on it's path down the barrel. The absolute worst leading I've ever had, strips of lead from breach to muzzle were with commercial hardcast bevel based .357" bullets in a 35 whelen with mild 1200 fps loads. Properly sized and lube ww gc bullets driven 1800 fps had zero leading and would put 10 in an 1" at 50 yds.

Here's what a 460 gr .475" water quenched ww bullet bhn ~18 looks like when driven 1100 fps, bullet on left 38" of wet newsprint, bullet on right 2+" of bone and 12" of newsprint.



And here's what a 400 gr .475" air cooled hollowpoint ww bhn ~13 driven 1200 fps looks like when driven into glacial silt (clay consistency) dramatic cavity for ~8" and total penetration of ~20"

^^^This!!!^^^

That's why I use the WFN LBT cast bullets! They just work.

Glad you included "size",makes me cringe when I hear just shoot as cast..

Not deer load........but a few yrs back......busted this dumb 'yote..........Rossi 45 Colt 20" CB

he was running directly away from me...3-4 shots....got dialed in.........250 gr cast boolit.........

5th shot all of 175 yds.......rolled him.........pups are fun.......

As cast can be exceptionally accurate, provided as cast is the right size for a given gun. I've shot a 1 1/2" 100 yd group with a revolver using an as cast tumble lubed bullet.

Dardas is a cast boolit supplier..........

they make 'em fat for Marlins............that Rossi is G O N E ..........

Use 'Marlin' in the promo code & get discount...........



http://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm...Code=45250RNFPBB500&Category_Code=45

My old 94 Trapper in .44 mag would put five 280 grain WFN LBT cast bullets in 1.5 " at 100 yards with a Weaver 2.5 power scope.

Sure they work if its the correct size for an individual barrel..I slug all my barrels, don't buy many stock molds anymore especially Lyman. I prefer having them custom made nowadays dropping a few thousands over bore with plenty of deep grease grooves if possible..Not a fan of Lee molds,the ones I have drop bullets very close to their listed dia but most of their grooves are too shallow to suit me since I tend to cast on the softer side and prefer lots of lube.

Woody,

I agree. Lyman has a great history and a wonderful book on casting and loading bullets, sadly I rank them as bottom rung on the quality of their products. Lee makes great handgun molds that shoot accurately and with the six cavity molds production is awesome for mold that costs about 1/2 what a stock 2 cavity mold runs from RCBS. I haven't used Lee rifle molds but can see how they are lacking in many aspects.

We are in the best of times for custom molds, I have several mountain molds and mihecs and have no doubt from reports from others that NOE, Accurate and others produce top notch products.

I got a 230 grain mold from N.O.E and it gets used in a single action pistol,my 45 ACP and is shot all the time in a rifle made like a Colt lightning.

The load we use in the 45 Colt is 10.0 grains of red dot.

If you use other powder just load for the pistol and the rifle will be faster.
The lead i use is a mix of medical and wheel weights with about 10 inches of 95/5 solder.
They are air cooled.
They are real good on jackrabbits out to 150 yards with the rifle and in the single action if he practices some more he should hit out to 75 yards.

The bullet was used last week to take a turkey at 80 yards and the folks he was hunting with could not believe ti would work.

It is a hollow point mold and it cast fine bullets after only breaking it in for 3 casting sessions.
It does do a yeoman's job on coyotes as well.

As for pushing cast faster i use them in my 250 SAV.,300 SAV.as well as the 45-70.
The speeds are around 2400-2500 with the 250 and 300.
The 308 works as well.
Are of these are air cooled but i do add some lino to male them a tad harder.
The lube i use for all of my cast is 2500+ and i believe it will hold up to faster speeds.
The same lead mix is used in the 38,357,9mm and 40 smith.
I have recovered some amd they expand real well,while holding together.

Do you have to use a heater for your lubrisizer to get that lube to flow?

Rf

You bet they work, loafing along at 950 fps in my Colt SAA or loafing a little faster at 1400 fps in my 45-110 Sharps or 335 gr at 1585 in a FA 454.

Nope is does help on a cold day to put the desk lamp by the sizer for a little while.

I do have a star with a heater base but it is set up for other pistol bullets.

The lube comes in tube form and you can buy it with or without the hole in it.
I buy it in bulk form because i do
The price is not that bad ,but i do not need any more tubes.

White label lubes i believe.

I should have been more specific about the Lee criticism ..yes I was referring to their rifle molds..I have several six cavities for handgun application and really like the way they drop and shoot without sizing..This one is the 430-310 RF I use in my !0" barrel 44mag Abilene silhouette pistola.

I realize I did not word my original post very well, not that it matters much. I have killed more than a dozen deer but this was the first with a handgun.

I know that I do not need more power or a change in bullet to effectively kill deer but just wondered if there were a better bullet choice that would more likely give me a blood trail to follow if needed.

Also when I say the bullet hit the top of the heart it was not exactly at the 12 O'Clock position. It hit a little below the top but probably 85% up from the very bottom if that makes sense.

Thanks for the feedback.

I"ll just ad, that I've not been unhappy with XTP in pistols. And have never not had 2 holes.

I just have an issue that shooting a hard cast lead bullet in my mind... since no one is supposed to hunt with FMJ.. I don't doubt that the large lead bullets work, they always have.

But expansion, controlled and not chaotic, but with retained weight, is always a good thing in my mind unless I'm trying to stop somehting big and bad with CNS hits... then I want penetration in a straight line period.

YMMV.

Oh yeah, blood trails on lung shots with XTP lately with the 10mm have been there but they are generally not quite as good as rifle type wounds. Easy enough to follow though generally. And nothing has made it past about 40-50 steps lung shot. Heart shots IMHO can vary wildly.... but are always dead also.

Low hits tend to give more blood trail than high.

YMMV

Surely you can see how a cast bullet with a wide, sharp edged meplat will produce a lot more trauma than the typical fmj.

Compare 45 ACP hardball to an NEI 454-270-PBK. The meplat on that one is .340" across IIRC.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

A cast or monometal bullet with a large meplat (ogival wadcutter) is a completely different animal than a round nose fmj or small flat point with rounded edges. Think of it in terms of a pre-expanded bullet. Shoot some media that leaves a permanent wound channel. Round nose bullets leave a caliber size hole, ogival wadcutters depending on caliber and meplat size leave a nickle to quarter size hole. IMHO the flat and sharp shoulder of an ovival wadcutter is the most effective shape for leaving a permanent cavity and performs like a larger dia expanded bullet due to the rounded edge of an expanded bullet.

And the Penn Bullets 45 cal 270 gr Thunderhead with a .440" meplat, I put finishers into two deer this year, they IMMEDIATELY coughed blood from their nose and mouth after the shot in the ribs, amazing.

I've never tried the Thunderheads. Are they easy to load re accuracy?

That thing looks like a big ol wadcutter!

How hard are they?

Yessir, 40 grs of 3F blackpowder in a Colt SAA sized to .454" dia. shoots to the sights too.

Harder than a whores heart Mooner ;]

"Best" is always subjective, but all things considered, from the muzzle to as far as one can consistently hit, 45 Colt bullets designed by Elmer Keith or FN series Veral Smith always work on deer sized animals, small game or even larger. This has been done for nearly a century, even at traditional 45 Colt/ACP velocity levels or loaded to 32,000CUP for the last thirty years.
If one is shooting deer inside 40 yards, especially with a rifle, expanding bullets do provide more "shock" on deer sized game when hit in non-CNS areas over traditional solids. Throw in every bone in the critter and the bullets designed to splat don't make the grade.
The good news is one can make BETTER bullets for 750-2,400 fps range in our garage or shop....they can punch that 45 hole or even splat AND have some splash, even cut through any bone.

Generally if there are issues with non-obturating hard lead bullets, its caused by dimesional issues or finish issues in the gun. Are they necessary? Not for deer, but to disregard them is to leave potential on the table. Guys running unlubed bullets arent running soft, but they understand gun dimensions.


Plain old wheelweight metal, heatreated soft Hollow Points in a Keith or FN LBT will easily run well in a rifle. Witnessed it three times on Saturday.

Best bullet Cutting Edge Bullets.....

150 gr. Copper Raptor

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/44-150gr-handgun-raptor

240 gr. Copper Raptor

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/45-240gr-handgun-raptor

With the 240 gr. at 1035 fps muzzle velocity a sub-sonic load punched a 135 lb. dressed whitetail at 50 yards tight behind the shoulder....walked with rear end low 20' fell over kicked a couple times...

Sounds like a lot of cheap target practice.

"Best" could also be classified as something someone wouldnt mind shooting a lot.

The 45 Supers use a three pin NOE 453423/453424 design. Cast of single or dual pot alloy they make for a less expensive "best" bullet that doesnt require a loan to shoot 400 rounds a week.
YMMV.