Possibly literally... It looks as though it's going to get widespread adoption with both the Marines and Army.

New Machine Guns on Horizon for Special Operators

Money quote from that article:


There had been reports (see second linked article) that no new machine gun would be adopted for the new intermediate round (6.5 Creedmoor) but obviously that's no longer the case...

It's looking like both the Army and Marines are going to (finally) move to a platform with better long-range characteristics. There is talk of an advanced caseless round, but it looks to me like momentum is building for the Creedmoor to fill the bill. A caseless round would be bad in the sense that civilians will never have access to it or weaponry that uses it - and even if there was access you can't reload it.

Another article of interest is:

USSOCOM Adopts 6.5 Creedmoor



From the same article, the following diagram showing how much of an advantage the 6.5 Creedmoor will provide over the 308 Win, aside from its better penetration characteristics:


And finally, from the Marines:
Marines Working with the Army on 5.56mm Rifle Round Replacement



At a minimum, the 6.5 Creedmoor will definitely join the ranks of the 45/70, 30-06, and 308 Win as a battle tested round, with great civilian popularity as well.

Have a good Memorial Day all!

It’s very popular, that’s for sure! I haven’t heard anyone owners bad mouth the Creedmoor.

Only the old farts that won’t turn lose the .260.

175 grains for the 308?
So much for a fair comparison

Reckon a 6.5CM fan wrote that?

I killed my first deer with my dads .308. H&r crack barrel.

6.5 Creedmoor.. a bad copy of 6.5x47Lapua, with a HUGE PR budget.

I sure don't mind the military going to the 6.5CM.

If they do, it will also mean a "Mil Spec" AR10 platform. That has been badly needed for awhile.

I like the cartridge. I like the ballistics.

But it carries with it some of the same concerns that made the AR10 less desirable than the M16. Weight of ammo, rounds per battle issue per man, weight of rifle, increased recoil...etc.

Am not a military guy and claim no expertise regarding US military rifle/machine gun issues, but the cartridge/rifle saga played out since the 30:06 days seems to demo clearly that there is no "perfect" single cartridge for whatever "they" (whomever that may be) think they need. That alone makes it difficult to take such a piece very seriously.

Beyond that, and although the 6.5 Creedmore seems to be just fine and may be about as good as other cartridges in that caliber range, its overall performance is not significantly better than existing cartridges of the class. It is difficult for a somewhat experienced old-timer like me to understand the craze. Is it simply advertising/marketing - or folks who simply need the next new/good thing?

This will probably get me rated as being a really, really, really old fart, but I own all three cartridges that I'm comparing in this saga.

Of the three, all loaded with modern powders and the current 6.5MM bullet selection, I'll take the 6.5x55 Swede any day of the week over the 260 Rem or the 6.5 CM.

You will never get anywhere with that kind of logical logic.

Numbers don't lie, nor does actual testing.

If guys in white hats can score more hits on guys with black hats using a Creedmoor, I'm more than happy. No craze, no fad, no marketing. Also no reason for so many to get butt hurt.


$20 says Christ would shoot a Creedmoor.

The Apostles' Creedmoor, of course.

Taking over the world - maybe. But only if Kim presents Trump with a highly engraved RAR decked out in Circassian walnut.

Lol...none of this would be an issue if the ,270 was developed in '06.

Yeah it would

Okay, that's pretty funny.... also kind of funny is my hunch that several of the original "Creedmoor, Bah Humbug..." posters have since quietly added a Creedmoor to their safes.... They may hold out 6 Months to a year before they start to post about the stellar shooting results though...

It should have been called the 6.5 Hudson, for all the butthurt it has created.

Too good.....

It's all relative.

If you're referring to me, I've owned a 6.5 CM rifle since the rifles were first introduced in 2008. I bought the first 6.5 CM rifle I saw which was a Ruger 77 Stainless All Weather rifle. The rife shoots extremely well and there is no doubt that the 6.5 CM is a good cartridge, but it isn't the total answer to everything as some would like others to believe. 2008 was long before every current new owner went gaga over it on the internet.

As for 6.5 MM bullets, its hard to beat them in a ballistic sense in just about any small arms cartridge that they are loaded in, so the military choice is a good one.

When did you quietly add a CM to your safe?

Simply seems to be what I said.

The US military suddenly realized what the Scandihoovians did 120 years ago...

I agree with CCCC. 308 Win with 150 gr bullet is so close the 6.5 CM out to about 600 yards. If you are shooting at man sized targets at 1000 yards then there is an advantage to the 6.5CM. Otherwise, why all the hub bub? To sell more rifles and so jug heads like us have more calibers to fight over. Which is not really a bad thing.

I'll stick with 308 Win and 30-06. They kill everything I can see, which is to say, if you are >500 yards away I'll never see you. Wearing hectafocals sucks.

That's the standard military sniper load for the 308. Other bullets won't do near as well for long range, especially regarding wind drift. To get decent BCs with a 30 cal bullet, you need something around that weight minimum.

Go ahead and post the ballistics for your preferred load, then we can compare...

What 150 grain .308 bullet has a .697 G1 BC, exactly...?

That's not to mention the fact that a 147 gr 6.5 mm bullet will handily outpenetrate a 150 gr .308" bullet of similar construction running the same velocity - which is a major consideration for the military.

(I'm referencing the 147 gr bullet from the chart in the first post, BTW.)

Considering the domestic gun market is extremely soft in sales and will be for some time the primary bright spot generating sales is the 6.5 Creedmoor.

While we are talking about this, (and that chart) lets put a guess on how many 1000M shots are made by standard battle rifles in actual field conditions...

??.... Anyone?

Don't they have rifles for that?

What's the avg. distance of kills in combat?

Under 300 yards?

If we are strictly focusing on long range kills, I'd put my money on the tried and true 300 Win Mag.

If we are talking about the avg. field rifle for troops, how many are even qualified to make 1000M kills?

Gees......... Don't introduce logic here.

Especially when half of the internet is still having tingly feelings running down their legs over the thought of cheap mil surplus once-fired CM brass.

How may hairs grow on a gnat's butt?

What’s so amusing reading all these Creedmoor threads is that the high BC bullets mean jack chitt to 95% of all US hunters when most animals are killed inside 200 yards. But it’s entertaining to see guys boast the creedmoor’s ability to buck wind at 1000, as if they will be hunting at those distances.

Neighbors are far between out this way, but one of ours did some shooting with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser here (ancient old thing) and later read this thread. He said it would be interesting if a knowledgeable owner of the newfangled and highly praised 6.5 Creedmore would bring it up here and run it against that old Mauser. He might have something there.

Exactly 12 on the male and 16 on the female. They have small butts, but very fine hair to make up for it. I counted them using my spiffy new Creedmore Microscope.

Good point. But I read (somewhere) that MOST whitetails are shot at <100 yards. Which is why the "as yet to be shot" 30-30 Creedmore will take the day.

Obviously the sale of Creedmoor rifles to those that no longer have a prostate is rather low.

I would think anybody that extolls the virtues of the 6.5 Swede would see the value in the Creed version.

Not if they are old and stupid.

This schit never ain't not funny,with a buncha CLUELESS Fhuqks talking out their asses. Congratulations?!? LAUGHING!

NOBODY had a first fhuqking clue 120 years ago,nor 12 years ago...because Today's boolits hadn't been invented yet. HINT.

I sure as fhuqk HOPE,that THE Fhuqking IDIOT "extolling" his Stupid fhuqking friend,don't shy off and waxes a touch eloquent on the "particulars" of the said piece of fhuqking schit. Mounts/bases/glass/stock,etc.,as well as ammo,is never not fhuqking HILARIOUS. Hint. Consider that two dogs wortha Dare. RE-Hint. HINT.

Was gunning 147 ELD's in Kreedmires yesterday,alongside Whizzum scooted 208 ELD's,7-08 180 ELD's and 7 Whizzum 180 ELD's,in like fhuqking conditions,none of which was favorable. Atmospherics woulda rated National News,anywhere else besides along the shores of the Milford. Hint. It were Sporty.(grin)

Kreedmire 147's,as per my spouts,chambered same.

Hint.






Funnier than fhuqk,that Whining Clueless Fhuqks are trying to brag up MK 248 Mod 1 and 220 Sugars at 2850fps.

Hint.






A S/A Whizzum and 208's at 2825fps crush it,handily.

Hint.






No flies on a 22" 7-08 and 180 ELD's at 2600fps.(grin)

Hint.






I hear good thangs about a S/A 7 Whizzum and 180 ELD's at 2825fps however.

Hint.






Pardon Facts & Physics reliably colliding with Fantasy and the "boring" constant,that boolits matter wayyyyyyyyyyyy more than headstamps. Hint.

Slickery boolits do more than slip atmospherics,as they just "happen" to retain a greater percentage of launch velocity,downrange at impact distance too. Who in THE fhuqk wouldn't heartily embrace them in harm's way,being able to reliably roll the greatest opportunity,to connect dots?!? You STUPID Fhuqks,reliably schlep Drooling Dumbfhuqktitude,to places it's never been before! Hint.

A reduction in recoil,barrel heat,more rounds in the belly and lighter ammo,prolly don't suck either. Hint.

'Course,it's easy for me to say,if only because I shoot it all and am afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess. Hint. But that do NOT mean,that I don't getta kick outta Whining Clueless Fhuqks who only "shoot" their mouths and Imaginations,TRYING to "talk" things wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond their means,abilities and comprehension. Funny schit and I mean fhuqking FUNNY!

It's never been difficult to cypher who shoots and who don';t.

Bless your hearts...for doing your best.

GOOD talk.

Laughing!

Wow +P+!......................









(Addendum...for yet another CLUELESS Fhuqk,giving 'er a whirl)


Tyrone,

There is ZERO need to perpetually reiterate the incredible depths of your Retardation...though it is fhuqking HILARIOUS! Congratulations?!?

Mk 248 Mod 1 is a spec for 300 Winchester fodder and I'm laughing sooooooooooooo fhuqking,hard that I'm crying! I very MUCH enjoy that your "means","abilities" and "comprehension" allowed you to "think" it were a 308. You hard charger" you. Just how much "noise" do you "hear",when you "shoot" your Imagination?!? LAUGHING!!!!

For posterity.





You'd do VERY well,to simply shut the fhuqk up,take notes and apply same...as I lead you to water. Hint. No I mean HINT.

Bless your heart.

PLEASE find me "mistaken" again!

Thank me later.

LAUGHING!......................

Not if your head is stuck on 130 year old rifle & action designs.

That's very generous of you. WTF gets 2,850 fps out of a .308 with 220gr MKs?

Anyway, as I've said before and you have so aptly illustrated, you can just about throw darts at a list and come up with a better long range cartridge than the 308.

I find myself not the least bit concerned with this. Why? Should I be? I havent monkeyed with any of this new stuff. Heck I think newest CF ctg i have somewhere around here is a .223 Rem ctg bolt rifle. But it is of very little importance to me what rifles and ctgs other folks enjoy shooting and reloading! Shoot what you enjoy shooting! Hunt with the rifle/ctg combo you enjoy hunting with!

7mm-08
150 ELDX
BC .574
2790 fps MV

There's my preferred load.






P

Leave Stumpy alone...

He has cut and pasted a lot more than usual,
which means he's drunk this morning....

At least I see his Lab spell checked things for him...
Poor dog gets embarrassed to have an owner that spells worse than the average dog...
while thinking he's smarter than everyone else on the planet..

You would seem to think accurately - he recognizes some value there and I acknowledged some earlier. There also seems to be a big difference between noting close comparability and proclaiming significant superiority. Must be another hair somewhere on that gnat's butt.

A thread here about a contemporary cartridge design and its potential acceptance seems a good opportunity for inquiries, comparisons and assessing the efficacy of the thing. For some it appears to be a springboard to express useless insults, feigned humor, and vulgarity.

Some like to learn new stuff and use the power of new and prior knowledge in assessments.

Then too, fads and craving for the "next big thing" seem to bring out less useful stuff in some folks - or maybe some posters are simply unhappy, negative souls who get jollies from trying to insult or bash others for no good reason. Revealing, either way, but one has to wonder why some show up as they do.

Granted that the 6.5x55 Swede is an old cartridge but the two rifles that I own chambered for it are roughly 9 years old and 6 years old. For some reason that old cartridge seems to have survived for quite a few years.

The 6.5x55 certainly does fine loaded to modern pressures. What it won't do is fit in a short action, which the military has standardized on since the introduction of the 7.62x51 in the '50s. The PIC is going to be fielded on the AR-10 platform, which is short action.

The .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor were really the only reasonable candidate rounds for the PIC. The 6.5x47 Lapua is essentially just a slightly lower capacity twin of the Creedmoor.

Part of the PIC requirement has nothing to do with long range shooting, but let's address long range first. Every Army squad and Marine platoon (at least that's my guess from some quick searching, any Marines want to clarify the role of the DM in that branch?) has a Designated Marksman.

To quote Wikipedia:

Currently the DMR rifles are either M-4s, which are fairly pathetic for that role, or M-14s which use the 308/7.62x51. Thus the comparison that begins this thread. The platform initially intended to use the 6.5 CM is the AR-10, so the 300 Win Mag is a non-starter - and it wouldn't be optimal in terms of recoil anyhow. One important factor is time to reacquire targets after the shot.

Getting back to the other PIC requirement, that is penetration in order to defeat the best current body armor. Regardless of range a similarly constructed bullet of similar weight and energy from the 6.5 CM will outpenetrate the 308 Win. That's why it (or some similarly performing caseless round) may eventually supplant the 5.56, because even at moderate ranges the 5.56 doesn't have enough penetration. The improved wounding/incapacitation from the 6.5 CM over the 5.56 is also worth considering.

What you don’t get is that if the 6.5 Creedmoor was developed in ‘06 the evolution of the cartridge would have stopped right there. There is no need for any other cartridge. And now the Campfire has shifted all the hype from fast twist to 6.5 Creedmoor.

When will the rest of the world catch up?

And a fine load it is...except the discussion is about the 308/7.62x51, not the 7mm-08. :-)

Given those concerns, could they be addressed by a 6mm round that would still provide the desired step up from 5.56 performance? It seems that a step up (from 5.56) is a good thing, but I wonder if some type of 6mm may be perfectly adequate on “human size” targets without some of the compromises that a 6.5 will have - weight, round count, etc.

Right there is an example of a guy enjoyably pulling a leg with tongue in cheek - and an example of someone who “knows” what was being thought over 100 years ago, what would or would not have happened in the meantime, and what we do or don't need with regard to cartridge development. Keen exposure of some telling human behaviors.

There are 6.5 Creedmoor’s walking up and down the street in my neighborhood makin sure there is at least one Creedmoor in every house!!!!

As for control in an M1A it is easy to keep on target.

I think that it would be no harder to control in a AR-10 platform,the 243 has not been a problem.

And for the record i don't own one at this time but have shot several autos and bolts.

I had to pull the blinds...it was too upsetting!

I'm not going to watch their show on TeeVee, either!