I own a piece of property in North Central Arizona
The area is checker boarded State Trust Lands and Private Ranchets

The original Rancher that subdivided the property's is Clear cutting the Cedar trees off of the State Trust lands he says for the grazing for his cows
I have been on the phone with several State Departments and no one at the State level wants to do anything about answering our questions.

The Rancher is cutting every tree in sight and just leaving them where they lay.
He did this 4 years ago and the Ranchet owners were able the stop him but he never cleaned up the fallen trees (dead trees laying all over the place)
Saturday he had 2 crews cutting trees one of the Ranchet guys got Pissed and started lobbing bullets over their heads.

Today the Rancher brought in 6 crews and are destroying everything in sight Acres and Acres a friend up there says it is like a war zone fallen trees everywhere.
The State Trust lands are 1 sq. mile and are being eaten up by this ARSS HOLE.

If the Clearing was for more grazing land I and others up there think that he would clean everything up to open the ground for his cattle no cow is going to stick his head into a prickly dead cedar tree to get to 2 inch grass in the middle of it.

Most of the areas cut this go around have no sign of his cattle even being in the area and no grass in sight.

The only thing that is going to happen is it will drive all off the Deer and Elk out of the area leaving us with the unwanted pigs and rattle snakes.

I have called and left messages with the Mojave County Emergency Management (no call back yet) , State Forestry & Fire (promised to call me back today and did not) . State Water Resources Called me back today and told me they could not help us and gave me another # to call) State Game and Fish(No Help past me to BLM it is not their jurisdiction) Arizona Land Office (no help yet)


Anyone on the Fire have any suggestions

Need help before all the trees are gone and we have a desert for the surrounding State Trust lands

so your guys have already brandished firearms and laid down harrassment fire?

Did I read that correctly?

Jeff Whitney is the state forester

Call all the local and state news agencies. Call all,your Political leaders County and State tell them your getting the media involved and none of their agencies are helping.

Hell call some environmental agencies. The enemy of my enemy.

Sounds like he is leasing the ground from Arizona Dept of Lands. (or whatever they call the agency in your state). The cutting of trees would be between him and the managing agency.

Not my friend up there some other land owner. everyone that lives up there is getting pissed off that there homes and surrounding lands could possibly go up in flames due to the drought conditions and some A HOLE adding to the problem with what we can see as no just cause.

10-4

What is his beef with the trees? He must be getting something out of it. It must cost him money to hire the crews that are doing it. It makes no sense to incur the expense with no gain?

He has Grazing Rights and the State Fire Marshal told me today that he has some rights to clear cut but he also has a responsibility to follow what is called a (Land Treatment Application)
At this point no one up there has ever been told this Until I was today.
No one has provided any of us with this document EVER and the Fire Marshal told me they are required to give it to us.

Then he said the Clear Cutting could not be started with out the (Land Treatment Application)
The Land Treatment Application spells out everything that the Clear Cutter is required to do such as Burn the excess brush , Haul it away etc.

If that is on state trust land, he better have permission from the state to do that.
arizona state land department main number is 602 542 4631, director of natural resources is Fred Breedlove 602 542 2929.
i have seen in past years as i grew u p in prescott, them knocking down that stuff with a naval anchor chain hooked to two big cats.
at some point permits issued to go in and get the dead wood for firewood.
If he has permission, don't know what you are going to do.
If he does not, he could be in a world of hurt.
if the lobbing of bullets is true, keep in mind some of these guys shoot back.
there are some real wingie dingies living up in that area as you know, everything from white supremicists, to varied kinds of druggies, you name it. People that in some cases really don't want attention drawn to themselves.
I use to cut downed trees for firewood almost every summer just south of ash fork, and north of hell's canyon.

This is what we are trying to find out.
Cutting trees to just Cut does not make sense to any of us up there.

There have been tensions between all of us Ranchet owners and the Rancher for years
I guess after he made money from selling his property he got butt hurt when people started moving up in his area or something.

WE have to keep our Livestock on our property but he is aloud to let his Livestock wander anywhere they want to go and we can not do anything about it.
so in reality unless w fence our property's ours is still his in a way.

He doesn't want his bovines to have any access to shade, he has a contract with Jack Links

I already called the (602) 542-4631 # thanks for Freds # I will call him tomorrow.

Ya there are some real wing nuts up there
My neighbor to this day when I am up on my property stops in my driveway honks his horn and yell to ask if it is OK to enter my property.
I tell him to just drive on in and he tells me every time He does not want to get Shot and I ask him . Am I that scary .

Some crazys fur sure but most are good crazy at least the ones I have met so far.

I assume this is in an arid area if not desert. Correct me if I am wrong.

Trees suck a great deal of moisture from the soil, which starves any grass for moisture. Trees also hog all the sunlight and grass needs sunlight.

You say that there is no grass there and no cattle. Maybe the trees are the reason, and just maybe the state knows the land is worthless for grazing, (its intended purpose) until the trees are cut off.

It just might be that the rancher and his state managers know more about managing pastures than do you or your "ranchette" neighbors.

Here's a thought. If you do not like the way the lands are being managed, take up a collection among your neighbors and purchase the lease on these lands. Around here, most are up for bid.

Of course you might have to show a management, and grazing, plan before your bid will be accepted.

And, if people were purposely shooting in the direction of my crews going about their legitimate business....it is likely they would suffer well aimed return fire. Does Az have castle doctrine, or "no duty to retreat"?

In any case, the shooter you mentioned should be cooling his heels in the local jail.

They cut trees next to the only stream up there today.
It gos threw my friends property
He had to take 6 Dump Truck loads of muck out of the stream today to keep from flooding his home out.

Talk about PISSED

no one will listen to any of us so far.

Hilly area about 5300 to 5600 ft elevation

And yes they have the Castle Doctrine.

Tell them to leave you property , they do not leave , Shoot them till they stop movin wait a day to make sure then call the Sheriff and tell them to come clean the trash off your proprty it is starting to smell.

I guess shot were fired again today. My friend said they were going over his head as he was taking pictures of the destruction.

He said he did not know where or what side it was coming from.

Wild West stuff fr sure

Glad I am not up there right now I would be sootin back and get myself in a world of hurt.

It is called "Open Range". Pretty much everything West of the Rockies plus a bunch on the East Side are are Open Range. It is the landowner's responsibility to protect his own property with fence if he does not want livestock entering.

chit if he owns the land why are you bitching what he does, sound like a liberal

It is State Trust Land He Does not Own it.
He has Grazing Rights and we do not know why he is Cutting all the trees down on State Trust Lands and just leaving them as a fire hazard for the rest of us

I guess you have never read any of my posts to know what side of the isle I stand on when it comes to my political ways

This question is not a political question.

Just asking for advice before the entire area burns up and leaves a charcoal waist land.

I get that and signed off on it that I understood the CCR's when I purchased the property

We still can not figure out why cut down all the trees and leave the fire hazard.
If we could get a reasonable answer to our question maybe things would be different but no answers and no communication with this Arss doing the destruction to the Deer and Elk habitat and making a gigantic fire hazard in an area that is very dry and has been for many years.

Nothing against you personally funshooter because I respect your contributions here but the situation sounds like exactly what happens when a bunch of out of state Californians buy “ranchettes” and then raise holy hell when guys like the rancher go about things just like they’ve been doing for generations. If it’s definitely not your property then I it’s definitely not your problem.

I’m sure that the appropriate agency will find out if he’s done something wrong and he’ll deal with it but it’s none of the other “ranchette” owners business.imho

ETA....if he lets good wood lie for a season or 2 then you should invest in a mill and a splitter. 😉

Had some Ranchet owners do just that and the State came in and told them they could not take any trees dead or alive off of State Trust Land with out a permit.
They tried to get a permit and they were told no.

We have a guy coming up on private property's and steeling standing trees , Taking it to Kingman and selling it as firewood.
He has been forcibly removed by the Sheriff several times and they still catch him from time to time and he does not live in the area 2 Sheriffs for 100 sq miles is what we have been told. Not much they can do.

If we knew why the cut with no harvest. We may not agree with it but we would have some answers
The State stepped in 4 years ago and stopped him and told him to clean it up.

He did not and is at it again.

How much destruction he will do this time around before he is stopped is anyone's guess

The Fire Marshal today on the phone use to work our area and did not sound like he liked the guy at all.

He said If they can prove that he does not have the proper paperwork to do what he is doing and does not follow the Land Treatment Application to a tee.

They can Revoke his Grazing Rights.

Again how many sq miles will be destroyed before they find out. if it is legit or not.

And afterwords how many acres and miles will possibly burn due to his destruction.

Most of the Ranchet owners just want him to clean it up as he go's

He tells them to F OFF

I'd not be surprised if his cattle had some low survival rates in the near future. Happens more than you think.

That’s how every single cedar clearing here and in NM is done. Yank it our or snip it, let the pile collapse out. Beats having a ton of new doublexrut defacto logging roads created during the haulout. You can still find the old cables and anchor chains from when it was done old school with rome plows back in the day. I will add that a lot of projects with cost sharing are entered into between the land department and surface lessees. Most are for range improvement, and cedar clearing is the most popular of those. Welcome to AZ!

If he was hauling it out after they dried out a bit and used the trees for harvest (firewood or lumber) we would understand.

He does not they cut 4 years ago and were told to stop and clean it up.

Every tree cut 4 years ago acres and acres 50 60 maybe 70 or more trees still laying there to rot

no harvest at all

Just do not understand creating a fire hazard and not making a dime off of it.

To be sure: are these the shrubby looking junipers that are being cleared and not pine like ponderosa? If so, most of it is worthless slash

I told my friend up there today there is more to this we have not been told.

I said maybe the Rancher has an agreement with the State to clear the trees once they are gone maybe he gets a kick back on the development.

Don't know just speculation on my part.

Something is very wrong on cutting Acres and even Miles of trees to let them lay and rot.

We are asking for our questions to be answered and to have the fire hazard cleaned up.

That's it

I guess that is to much for the higher up and for others just to call us Liberals because we do not want our property's burnt out.

They are what I think is Aromatic ceders
Do not know for sure but man do they smell good when you cut them even the ones that have been dead for many many years all dried out and almost crumbling cut them and burn them smells good.

They cut it up and take it to Kingman to sale as firewood so there is some money to be made
My friend says they get $500 an acre.

I have several neighbors that when they clear for building they take it to Kingman and sale it.
So there is a value maybe small but it is there.

But these just lay and rot the Rancher makes no attempt of cleaning the up at all.

Makes no sense to anyone up there

At least around here you aren’t going to get grass to grow for grazing until you get the cedar cut. Even at $500 an acre I doubt hauling them for firewood or post is economical unless you value labor at free. If he’s got a crew doing it the labor costs would make hauling it for sale to be throwing good money after bad

No grass growing where they cut 4 years ago nothing at all

No water no grass we do get Monsoon rains in the summer but not much at all for the past 6 years or so.

The area seems to be getting drier and drier every year

Even the Ranchets with wells on them do not grow much on them
Small personal gardens at most dirt is pretty much dead and will not sustain much of anything but Cedars and Scrub oak very few Pinion pines in the area but there are some people up there cherish them because they are far and few of them.

It also does not make sense to us up there that after the trees are cut and dead. The State will not allow anyone to pull a permit to clean it up for the Fire Hazard

They can come in a steal it but Just do not get caught. But no permit to do it legal strange bureaucracies.

there is a place not that far really from where you are at called camp wood. for an obvious reason. when ft whipple was at the original location at delrio springs, just north of chino, the cavalry guys were cutting wood at camp wood. My wife's uncle bob was employed by i think the wpa during the depression to cut that stuff during the depression. It is typically dry but over time the cleared areas do regain vegetation. As to the rancher, at least some of them, it was easy to figure out to subdivide some of the land and sell those ranchettes for so much down, and carry the contract. When the out of state purchaser figured it out about hauling water, the knee deep mud in the winter, yada, yada, they would default he would forclose and sell again. lot easier than pushing some stinking cows around. I am not sure who the rancher is, but the guy who was managing the old boquilla's sheep ranch, now owned by the navajo, wasn't particularly well recieved by some.
In the dark ages I use to patrol that area from time to time on the yavapai side. The fire danger is real, more so from those thickly packed trees
I know i got in that area one time on foot, a blizzard started up, this before gps and i had a heck of a time finding my truck. I think you just need to find the right person to get answers at the arizona state land department.
as far as the cattle from the rancher running all over, a member of my family owns some land up just south of the grand canyon, and same situation. You have to fence to keep them out, it's in the purchase contracts. Things change i am sure, but long time ago people didn't always bother to get permits to cut wood particularly in the outlying areas where they knew gooberment wasn't gonna be around. I think at the time a permit would get you about six cords, and i don't remember paying for a permit, not once was i ever checked hauling wood out.

in some of those areas where they have knocked over the trees, it's a great place for bunnies making a home in the downed trees. I have done a lot of cottontail hunting that way.

It's been a few decades since I lived down there, so I'm not up on current procedures, but when I was in high school a friend from a ranching family was griping about how they could not sell the cedars for firewood that they were clearing. The permit was for clearing only, and did not allow commercial sale.

At that time, '70s and early '80s, public was free to take the downed, dried trees for personal use, but could not sell it, or cut live trees. Areas where they had been cut or uprooted eventually grew into pretty good range, but could take years, sometimes over a decade, depending on rainfall. You said you have had six very dry years, that goes far to explain why there's not been much grass growth where he cut four years ago, especially if it's allowed to re-seed naturally instead of the rancher being required to seed it. Ron is right, it makes great cottontail hunting area, and quite a few mourning doves nest there, too. He's also right about the live trees being a fire danger, probably more than the dried out ones, if they are very thick.

Those "cedars", mainly Utah Juniper also commonly called shaggy-bark, do use a lot of water, and not only shade but also the shed foliage hinders grass regrowth. When the first settlers came into that area those trees were not nearly so common, but they proliferated in areas that were overgrazed. The Big Chino wash used to have enough year-around flow that the early beaver trappers found it worthwhile to trap it.

I personally am not against the cut.
I am worried about how thick the dead stuff is right now from 4 years ago and how thick the new stuff is getting creating a Gigantic Roman candle situation that once started will never stop. In areas you can not walk threw the stuff and with new stuff it will be even worst. If you can not walk threw it how can Cattle get threw is them selves.
Serious clean up needs to be done before a everything ignites

Not many Cotton Tails up there lots of Jacks and since I purchased their #s have dwindled almost to nothing. I think the water has a lot to do with it.

I use to race the Jacks with my Quad side by side there were so many. Now your hardly see any at all.

The Deer and Elk are getting harder to see as well not much up there for them but hiding spots

Pigs are a problem and there is an open season on them Javelins you need a permit.

I know a lot of areas that have a cedar tree problem and are being cleared as much has possible. A huge waste of ground water and grass if they are left to spread on their own.

we always called it shaggybark juniper. I burned a lot of it for years due to jimmy carter. at the time our house was built in prescott there was a moritorium on new gas hookups, so we had to go all electric. Couldn't afford it so it was the juniper in the fireplace to heat with, and sometimes cook with. As to the beaver, the az game and fish years ago got control of a ranch near paulden where the verde river starts. At one time there was still beaver in it, when i was a kid. the K4 ranch was bought by the tricity group, prescott, prescott valley and i think chino, and they have put in a giant sucking straw.

Ya they have been left to grow for over 100 years and I can see some thinning really needs to be done
But cutting and leaving them to start fire is another issue with me

Everyone gives Prayers for our members on the Fire When these fires get rolling

Why do we all need to just let people create the condition for then to really take off in the first place.

Flagstaff burned a couple years ago Real bad Cali. is on fire right now all over the place. Washington is going up in flames.

And I am witnessing a disaster in the making in my own area and I can not do anything to help stop it it seems.

I guess I just need to take the Hint and Shut my Mouth let it happen because I live in a Liberal State so that makes me a out and out Liberal due to association.

Sorry for my rant It just is getting frustrating knowing what is going to happen in a few years and we have no way of slowing the inevitable down.

I have been bitching for most of my adult life on land policies and the forest state lands in central arizona. I have pictures of family in the late 1800's around flagstaff, big trees, lots of meadows.
there are areas on bill williams mt that you cant hardly walk through it's so thick now. The forest service lady around willaims let a "controlled burn" on a real windy day a few years ago, started a pretty good forest fire.
At one time logging was allowing, and there were mills in williams. A lot of scrap wood would be piled up in the summer, to burn when the snows came. That stopped for a lot of years. Then the bark beetle came in weakening or killing the trees. There is a road over the top of the bradshaw mountains north from phoenix to prescott. Use to be like driving through a tunnel. Beetles killed a lot of trees, so did drought, and too many trees competing. The fires came and it looks like the surface of the moon.
I have thought the same for a long time in the area you are concerned about. Just a matter of time, I think.
A lot of the forest around prescott is now gone, due to fires.

i was talking to a friend of mine up north today on this thread. His comment was the guy should be prosecuted if he doesn't have written permission from the state to cut on state trust lands.

They let people with no permits come in to Steal it on the State Trust Land Just do not get caught but they will not give permits out to clean up the dead stuff.

Several owners up there have tried to get permits so they could clean up the fire hazard bordering their property's and the State has said NO YOU CAN NOT HAVE THE PERMIT

Arizona is just as Screwed up as Cali. when it comes to common sense.

Everyone is asking to see the paperwork from the Rancher , Mojave County and the State and no one will cough it up.
I have been the only one to find out about the Land Treatment Application and that was just yesterday.

The Ranchett owners have been fighting the fire hazard practice since the early 90s when the land was sub divided.

Lots and lots of old dead trees cut for many years laying all over the place just ackin to burn.

WTF is a Ranchett?

Mini Ranch That is what they call us Wanna be's

I have 36.1 Acres

Hobby Ranch

Just got off the Phone with a head guy in Arizona Land Dept.

He just told me that there are Laws on the books that prohibit ANYONE from removing clear cut trees off of State Trust lands for ANY REASON.

Not even to prevent fires

What Kind of idiot would create a law like that.

We have a bunch of MORONS running our Gooberments

I thought Cali.was screwed up.

The rancher is doing what he wants, he will most likely ask for forgiveness when he gets done if he goes to far rather than asking for permission. If the downed wood is making a fire hazard near your property go cut what you need to. Cut it up for firewood at your place and be done with it. As you have said there is nobody up there and obviously nobody gives a [bleep]. The bigger area he is cutting up there isnt much you can do about it. Sounds like he is gona cut as much as be can untill he gets shut down. Once it is out that stuff has been clear cut the tweekers and some locals from kingman and maybe Seligman will be up there cutting the [bleep] out of it. Maybe run to Kingman and throw up some flyers at walmart saying there is free wood to cut. Large chunk will be gone in a couple months. If he aint been shut down yet, he prob isnt going to be.

You claim that you've tried to get a permit to remove the trees and it was denied. Do you think the rancher would have an easier time getting that removal permit?

That is the best, most realistic way to handle a situation like this that I have read in a long time.

I ain't calling the government for help unless there is a sudden zombie attack in the neighborhood, and only maybe then.

Clear cutting along with removal of growth is kinda like strip mining. Tons and tons of mineral removed. All of which came from the soil it grew in.

At this point I do think he could do what he wants with the trees.
He holds the Grazing rights and the permit to clear cut so he and he a lone would hold the rights to clean his mess up.
Maybe it would cost him to much to do so.
He will not talk to any of the property owners up in the area at all he tells them to F OFF.
Forcing us to do what ever we can to stop any fire hazard in the future

Yesterday my friend had to haul out 6 dump trucks of debris flowing into his property from the only creek bed with water in it and is busy today digging the crap out again due to the Clear Cutting above his property.

They are now dropping the trees into the creek creating a flood problem for him on his property

But I guess it is OK that the Rancher can do what he wants with no ramifications down stream from his actions

Friend called the Army Corps. of Engineers today going around the State for help.

So at this point y’all have called the law at him and shot at his crews for doing what you’ve now legally decided he could do and your upset that he isn’t working with you more

It's impossible to understand the whole issue on the basis of what is posted. I muster no support for any side of this, but would seek answers to the following.

Does he hold a lease on the noted lands and is he allowed to do what he is doing within the terms of a lease? If so, where is my problem?

If he clear cuts the cedar/juniper and removes the debris, how will that affect the value of the State land? In my experience, such trees do not make the land more valuable, and seem to inhibit (in more ways than one) the growth of natural western pasture grass. The main (maybe only) value of such trees seems to be as firewood.

If grass growth is improved, how does that affect the value of the land? In dry and threatening fire conditions, which is the greater fuel threat - dry cedar/juniper forest or high desert grass?

If the value of the land in being enhanced and the fire threat reduced, where is my problem?

It seems quite unlikely that a person would go to the expense of time and money to clear cut and then leave the tree wood lying there - no take-away benefit visible.. My guess would be that most or all of the debris will be removed. Then again, my take could be in accurate - and the person may leave the debris as it lies. In that case, I could well have a good reason to question further and maybe even complain.

It sometimes takes time, research, and some reasoning to see the full picture.

just send your women to TX and we will take care of them.

TFF

He Does have the Grazing rights , He does have the so called permit to clear cut the State Trust Lands (3) different State agency's can not Verify this He supposedly has the Land Treatment App. (3) State Agency's can not verify this.

As per the State Fire Marshal and the State Land Trust Dept. (today) They say that there is nothing they can do for us so my guess is all of us up there must just roll over and let nature take its course and like Williams and Flagstaff just let things burn us out when the fire starts

Of Course my friend up there will not have a home to burn up because it is being flooded out as we speak due to the Cut above his property

The State Water Resources as of today will not help us.

It is very Funny (not) that the State can not come up with his permits and he will not show them And he can proceed with no proof.

Something Smells

I have 2 more calls into the District Fire Marshals but I know were that is going No Where

We as Law Abetting land owners can not even drag the fallen trees away from our property lines for a safe fire break.
Un Fricken believable.

I have a permit from ASLD and the situation is quite simple, it's all in his permit conditions...
ASLD has tools online that you can learn some of your above questions, including if he has a permit. Google it as I'm driving...


Find a grazing permit application online as it would inform your questions to ask...

http://gis.azland.gov/webapps/parcel/

Try this..

If he is doing what he is doing, I can assure you ASLD would require erosion control which I suspect he ain't doing...

To get ASLD to act, you need to really make the situation as dramatic as possible, talk about impacts, etc or they will ignore it. I've been dealing with these idiots for years....

Anybody grab a case of beer and run by this guys ranch to try and see what was going on before calling everyone short of the govenor and starting a shooting war with him? Might not have liked what he had to say but atleast you might have had a better idea what was going on. Might atleast have been able to talk him into keeping stuff out of the stream beds.

Leaving the downed trees may be considered erosion control, depending where they are. A friend was a logger; he had a great reputation for rejuvenation and enviro-friendly logging. On several occasions he was called in to place logs and/or branches in streambeds and steep slopes to slow the water flow; erosion control.

Fire Marshal laid it out for me pretty hard for me.

Even Though no one can find the the State Trust Clearing Permit and Even Thou no one can find the Land Treatment App.

We have NO say , NO gripe and NO recourse to DELAY , STOP or even QUESTION what this guy is doing on the State Trust Lands.

Also we can not MOVE , TOUCH or REMOVE cut tress on State Trust Lands PERIOD

End of story

We are to watch our property's BURN when the fire starts.
what a bunch of #$%^%$#@#%^TWQE%&&$@@ Arizona State Departments are.

They have been talking to the Rancher responsible for this for years and they just get a Gigantic F U from him.

My calls are over the Sheriff laid it out

Going to the government is never the best option. You've been lead, it's up to you.

Thanks for this I will pass it on to the Residents up there.

We lop off western juniper trees up here on both private and public lands. Being they are evergreen and suck moisture from the ground anytime temps are above freezing, one can elevate herbaceous forage production from mere lbs per acre up to tons. On site moisture retention is elevated and erosion is damn near eliminated compared to the bare ground one sees on heavily infested sites. Benefits all grazers and grass seed consumers be they wild or domestic. Other than a few robins, solitaires, and coyotes that consume some winter time berries, nothing depends on western juniper for its living.

Cutting, however, is very expensive. Once forage production comes back, one can use periodic controlled burns to eliminate young newly establishing trees.

Those of us in the private sector can also get permits to cut live or dead juniper for firewood and posts on public (state, BLM, USFS) lands. Mostly we view juniper as a weed up here.

Ya I got a hold of a top guy in Phoenix today and introduced myself over the phone he knew everything about me and everything about the situation up at the property

He told me that they were working on it and he was one of them that could not find the permits and land app.

Ya I have reached a bout as for as I can reach for nothing.

At least Cal.i wants people to cut a fire safety area around there property if nothing more to help the firefighters during a fire.
The environmentalists get involved for the loss of Habitat for the critters and sue you after the Firefighters save your place but you have a place most of the time after a fire if you did what they Fire Dept. asked and cut the clearing in

Arizona is BASS ACWORDS
You are not aloud to try and save your own place at all.

For gods sake man stay in Cali where its SAFE!

Do you own a tractor?

I am not taking sides on this but if you would google up something like "removing cedars to improve habitat" you will find that it is not just happening in AZ but all over the western states, so what you are perceiving as being bad may be beneficial in the long run.

The other thing is that regardless of whether you think you are right or wrong you and your "ranchette" neighbors are the outsiders there and raising a stink with a local rancher is probably not endearing you to any of the other locals. Chances are you and your neighbors are referred to by the locals as "those da*ned Californians. If all of this bothers you that much why not just sell out and move back to California where the government controls everything you say, do, and breath - after all they did such a great job with that dam a couple of years ago.

I was just emailed the State Trust Land Treatment Application they are working off of
It expired on July 2015 and was for an area 3 miles away from were they are cutting.
It also so said THINNING of Junipers and CLEAN UP of junipers

Just emailed a copy of it to State Land Trust Dept. with a Nasty letter to go along with it.

I will be calling the State Fire Marshal tomorrow to demand Action be taken against the Rancher and stop im until they get answers from him about why he is doing the work with no viable permit and in an area that he has NEVER had a permit.

Gunna be fun on the phone tomorrow after I got the ARSS ripping from the today.

These are the kind of things that gives folks from California a bad name. Atleast California does this and your state is phugged up is not what people wantt to hear.

I do understand the long term benefits of the cut.

I do not understand the attitude of the State not letting land owners remove or just move the dead crap away from there property lines for a fire break.

This is beyond STUPID

Ya cut the Damb stuff but pull it away for safety to others.

I would like to add a bit to the Cali. Attitude and how bad we are

I am an old Ironworker with an old Ironworker attitude
I do not run away from a fight if there is something to fight about. I DIG IN

The Safety of my Family ,Property and Neighbors is right at the top of my list to fight for.

Safety for anyone of them is what I will never let up on if there is any fight left to fight and I do not care who I have to fight.

This rancher brought the fight to us risking our family's and our property's safety.

If anyone is not willing to fight for that. What kind of person are they.

I for one knowing a person would not fight for family and friend would not be a friend of mine for very long.

Call it what it is I have not been up there since January after I was Broken into and my FRIENDS up there came to my aid

It is my turn to return the favor and Make some phone calls for them as they have poor phone service in that area and now a friend is digging himself out from the ramifications of the Cut flooding him out.

This thread was started to get help with our situation up there and I get attacked for asking for advice.

Thanks for your help.









That is to the ones that tried to help me out and gave me some directions to follow.

I’m sure since your worried about the danger of fire to your place you’ve already cut fire breaks around it and removed all the dead wood from the land you control...

In the works I have roads around three sides and share a property line with a guy that cut his side to install a fence.

Dead limbs and trees I get at them every time i go up.

Gotta have a camp fire when you got campin.

I feel your pain, but state trust lands are private lands (held in trust). If the state decided that a strip mine directly behind your house would most benefit its beneficiaries, a strip mine it would be. AZ can’t allow you to do with it what’s best for your property anymore than your neighbor must allow you to do on HIS property what you think is best for yours. I have national forest 30 feet behind my cabin and I can’t remove the million juniper saplings there that threaten me.

One silver lining, though : look at footge of LIVE juniper going up in flames during a fire. It is astonishing the amount of flame those needles make...much more than piles of old dead thinned juniper that have long ago lost those needles and boughs.

No easy answer for sure.

Good luck in your fight, i said nothing about that. What i did say is nobody in Arizona give a chitt about what they do in Cali. I suepect you come to Az because you arent a fan of Cali politics, but are quick to call Az a backward state because they wont see it your way.

This is why all of us up there are fighting
We all understand the benefits of clearing we just would like to see it moved away from the property lines and at best removed permanently.

We know we will not get the latter but we can push for at the very least a fire break and not throwing them into the only active wash up there
My poor friend has been digging since morning and was still digging when I called him at dark in a full blown rain that they have not had for years and now not much standing above him to hold the flood back. The cut trees are washing down to his place and taking his stuff out as they flow.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting because now I have the proper ammunition to Fight the Land Trust Dept. and the Forestry & Fire dept. that pretty much cussed me out today telling me the rancher had permits but could not prove it.

I am in possession of it as I type.

And it will not be pretty tomorrow when I get them on the phone.

Grew up in SLC Utah moved to Cali. seeking work in a very long ago recession.

Cali. has never turned me to the dark side and never will I am to ornery for that to happen and getting worse as time go's on

Looking forward to the day I start getting out of this Crap Hole

Everything I do now is in preparation to getting out but there is not much work up where I have property.

If he’s not cleaning it up (for any of a million reasons) and the state, feds, police and fire department don’t give a sh1t AND it truly is a potential fire danger to you then go cut it up and haul it off because obviously NOBODY CARES!

But then again I don’t ask the government for anything, let alone permission to keep myself and my family safe. Unfortunately at this point I’d say you’re SOL since you’ve made such a stink that the fire marshal reamed your ass and would probably enjoy catching you and your neighbors cleaning up the downed fuel and doing what you could’ve done just “yesterday”. I’d tread carefully at this point and clean your place and take responsibility for hardening your ranchette against fire. In general I’d prefer the fuel was already down rather than standing because I’ve fought forest fires and watching trees “top” and seeing how far they’ll throw their embers is not preferable to having them on the ground where in the case of fire can be hauled out much quicker.

In any case I hope you don’t ever have to deal with a forest fire, but looking on the bright side of it you’re far better off now than if the cedars are standing. 👍 I’m an optimist though......😁

I can be a Giant ARRS
I am an inspector now and I tell those hardened old Ironworks were to go now.

I have told police off when they have pushed me to that point and I am going to shove this Expired Permit where the sun does not shine tomorrow with the Fire Marshal

I have already sent an email to the Land Trust Dept. and told them I would be a callin them tomorrow.

Know one would help us and would not give us the permit because they knew what it contained.

The group up there is getting lyers together to take this all the way to the Governor and I am pushing the phone.

I do not like to be lied to and take it personal.

I want to see what the State dept.s are going to do now that we have some leverage.

The other owners up there just want it cleaned up away from there property's and I feel that that is a reasonable request.

There has got to be more to this than they are letting on.
I have said that before in this topic just gotta keep diggin and pushin till the crap starts a oozzin

Maybe, but did he put that in his permit.....

It's the little chit that gets the idiots to realize they are pretending they own public land....

I'm all about folks doing stuff on public land....

But when/if they abuse it you gotta know how to deal with it hitting those buzzwords and knowing the process, unfortunately....

I would not get too ugly with said fire marshal. A big fire may around the corner, he is not one to alienate.

The Permit Expired in July 15 2015 Over three years ago for a parcel three miles from where they are Clear Cutting right now.

It also Says Thinning the Cedars not Clear Cutting
I got something to fight back with now

The Fire Marshal in Flagstaff use to work our area and does not really like that Rancher much.

I think one of my calls is gunna be to him tomorrow.

It’ll be interesting to see what develops of this since I’m always interested in “Joe Sixpack” versus government bureaucracies and bullshitt

Good luck.

I will be the first one to admit we need all the luck we can get.

I would like to know why they hid the Expired Permit from us in the first place but I think I already know the answer to that one.

The State wants the trees cleared and the Rancher wants the land so go for it.

If the Rancher would have just pulled the crap away from our property's in the first place we would have never found out about the Expired permit and he could have cut to his harts content.

He did not we found out so now we will see what happens.

Wow! And they are coming in droves. Ranchets, we are fugged! And they're voting the same chit they ran from, we are double fugged!!!!







Take care, Willie

There you go...

I'd still get a copy of the blank permit application so you can have more ammo...

Talk to an attorney! They know the language bureaucrats speak!!!!!

I see 2 ways to stop this. #1, you convince an agency to stop it. Maybe, but I doubt it. Sounds like your name is circulating in those circles. that is an uphill battle.

#2, a court order. Now that he doesn't have the right paperwork, that should be relatively easy by........talking to an attorney!

Again I have no problems with the Cut

We as Land owners Have to Follow the Law
The Rancher should be held to the restriction of his Permit and Follow the Law
The State Should follow and enforce their laws that everyone else is required to Follow

This is going to be my Angle when I call them today.

It will not be in that order though

The Ranchett owners up there have already contacted a Lyer for help
This could take years and by that time all of the Elk and Deer will be run off and we could already be Burned out.

Have to keep fighting the fight until they come cuff me and haul me off.

The rancher should be following the letter, but regardless of the technicalities involving permit dates, compliance with the permit conditions, etc., it can wear out a single guy, or even a group of neighbors, to carry on a prolonged quasi-legal battle with government bureaucrats and agencies. They can simply drag heels, not answer inquiries and wear you out.

From all of the above it seems like your prime concern is the fire danger with the dead fall near the boundaries of the lease land. It also sounds like the state agency and the rancher have some exposure due to non-compliance and lax enforcement, and might be looking for a back door.

Why not try for a quiet agreement that enables you, your neighbors, wood cutters and others interested a reasonable amount of time to take out the juniper/cedar lying within a certain distance of the boundary. That would enable your needed fire break. That type of tree is practically useless and a pain in most respects with regard to other vegetation, but it makes very good firewood.

Looks to be worth a try.

Talked to The Fire Marshal (2 Offices), Land Trust Dept. , My Friend up there , the Sheriff and Last but not least the actual Rancher with the permits.

Waiting for call backs from 2 of them (Gooberment)

We will see where it go's

Some Illegal moving of stuff is more than likely going to happen for the short term fire danger.

I still do not understand how one could imagine that timber lying on the ground is a greater fire hazard than standing scrub cedar. Has one never seen a standing, green forest burn?

It sound like the rancher is doing all of you owners of adjoining "ranchettes" a huge favor.

If the properties are 30 acres plus, every one of them has plenty of room for defensible space around the home. If a home in the middle of 30 acres burns from a wildfire, either the home was built too close to the property line, or the property owner did not alleviate flammable growth on his property.

I REALLY REALLY HATE STATE GOOBRMENTS

I got a hold of the same State Trust Land guy that I have been talking to for the past 9 days (almost every day)

I asked him if it was a State mandate or requirement that the Ranchers that hold Grazing rights do the land Treatment clearing or there Grazing rights would be revoked and another Rancher would be able to take the area's over if they agreed to do the Land Treatment.

He told me YES they are required to do the Land Treatment or face Grazing Rights being REVOKED.

I asked him WHY DID YOU NOT TELL ME THIS 9 DAYS AGO.
HE would not answer me.

I did accomplish one thing.

My friend up there said that a guy in a suit and tie wearing rubber boots was up in the cut areas taking notes.

What a bunch of SOB's that we employ in our Gooberment offices.

I told him if they were straight forward with everyone up there people would not be shooting over other peoples heads to scare them off

Dick Heads every single one of them.

Buddy,

I wish you luck when you move out there to retire. I'm sure there are some fine people out there. There are also a lot of people at the end of their rope. Some people that were never quite right Some hoping to get in a lot less trouble, just by being that far away from anything else.

My sense from being in Northern Arizona most of my life, is there is a lot of drama per capita out in those 40's. Hard to explain, but there just is.

Sycamore

I know what you are talkin about from personal experience.
I have owned my property out there for about 12 years now.

But the Stupid Gooberment out there helped fuel the fire this time by not being up front with people.

The Rancher seems to be an OK guy but no one has the guts to talk to him.

I got on a Group Facebook page for the owners up there last night and let our POA have it.

Now everyone wants to know who I am

My Friend told everyone today that I was a Bulldog and will fight for the group.

I really do not want people up there to get the Idea that I will do what I did every time someone hiccups.

I have been quietly fighting the progressives up there practically since I purchased my place with few knowing what I was doing.

My friend told me now that I got all the Info. for them so that maybe things will mellow out I need to just disappear for a bit.

Things are coming out about the area that is gunna get them all twisted up again soon and I get to kick back and watch for a bit before I start Barking at the opportune moment.

Thanks for all the good advice to those that tried to help me out
It helped me get educated a little more than when I started this post

I'm no longer living in AZ but still hunt there so I have an interest in this stuff.

Has the lawyer for your compadres tried sending a cease and desist letter, assuming he/she has all the info you've been posting? And determined you have a case?

Has anyone filed a freedom of information request, assuming there is such a law in AZ since you're dealing with State agencies and not the Feds?

If he's truly working checkerboard lands, and cutting "miles" as you mention, has he or his workers trespassed while cutting the corners of the checkerboarded properties? If there has been trespass, especially the cutting of trees on private (not State land), then there may be a case for the Sheriff to invesitgate/enforce.

Is this rancher the same one (same family even?) as the one who did the subdivision?

Greg makes some good points about leaseholders sometimes getting the impression they "own" the lands they operate on. However, if you've tried working with the State and Local agencies and they're not helping, perhaps the rancher knows or believes there will be no serious repercussions.

Living in the rural West is such a joy at times. I'm bordered by BLM land and would just love to extend my firebreak over the fenceline but can't............legally. I've got a decent one already, so I'm not too worried, but with a relatively major fire burning nearby I'd rather have more. Controlling what goes on over the fence is a bitch................good luck.

Loads of good info on the web about juniper encroachment and its effects on water, grassland, sage, and animal species. Quite a few posters here have alluded to it. Arm yourself with some knowledge. Those deer and elk might actually benefit from what the rancher is doing (bunnies too, but they have up and down cycles so it may not be as apparent). Grass for the elk and forbs for the deer will likely do a lot better than with the junipers continuing to expand. They'll maybe find cover on some of those unoccupied 40's.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Juniper+encroachment&t=ffsb&ia=web

Remember, many of the agencies you are dealing with are "resource strapped", as in budget and personnel shortages. Then again, there's been instances of a rancher or two doing what the heck they want and asking forgiveness later as one of the posters pointed out. QUite easy to do in the middle of nowhere.

Good luck,

Geno

PS, the "cedar people" are a real trip, aren't they!

I think the expression is "no sh*t"

we were down on the desert yesterday to check some stock tanks. son in law was not used to seeing the state trust department signs on the gates stating prohibited entry, other restrictions. Told him years ago when i first started seeing those, i called the land department. primary reason for them is to keep californians with atv's out. I have seen bunchs of california plated motor homes in the area, with people on atv's herding quail.
we had valid hunting licenses so no issue with us entering said lands.

Land covered by mountain juniper produces about nothing of food value.

Having lived in Northern Arizona much of my life, cutting down cedars to improve rangeland has been happening for better part of a century. The methods have changed, but the intent remains the same. As someone mentioned, back in the day, cedar trees in an entire area were removed with anchor chain strung between two dozers. The Forest Service, BLM, and State remove cedar regularly. They do it mechanically - not with dozers but with chain saws and wood chippers - if they have to.its expensive to do it. In fact, often, during a forest fire, they don't even try to put fires out in cedars. They want to let it burn. They are called managed fires. Fire was common part of the ecosystem in the west before they were surpressed by Smokey the Bear. Now our forests are overgrown. With the removal of the cedars, grasses return, water depth decreases, and wildlife numbers usually improve, particularly elk and antelope, birds, fur bearing animals, and predators. The Forest Serive calls it habitat improvement.

As far as the fire danger from downed trees, it is actually less. Ever seen a cedar with foliage go up? Takes seconds. Craeates heat in the several hundred degree range approaching a thousand degrees farenheit. Not so much with a downed tree from a few years ago. A live cedar with needles has kinda of a ladder fuel situation. Not so much with a downed tree. Ever seen a Christmas tree go up? Take the needles off and now try to catch the same tree on fire. Totally different story.

As far as a higher forest fire risk to those with houses or structures from the ranchers activities, as mentioned, it is less. From those living on the ranchetts, clear the same cedar trees a distance of at least 100 feet from their own structures - regardless of what the ranchers or any entity such as the Forest Service or State does or doesn't do on their property. Removing the trees around the house is called defensible space. Tell the folks in the ranchetts they might wanna consider it.

Seems like the newcomers to the area aren't familiar with a century of kinda knowing what they are doing before the newcomers arrived. It will be fine. Relax.

Who knows, maybe that rancher will be amenable to you guys hunting antelope on that range when they return.

No offense to the original poster intended but he seems to have the stereotypical attitude that urban people have when they move to more rural areas, convinced that the locals are Morons who’ve been doing it wrong for 100 years and that he’ll straighten them out. Full time life there can be difficult when you take that approach

Just about every location in Texas hill where Ashe Juniper has been cut back and controlled, springs that haven’t flowed in 75- 100 years have started flowing again. With the absence of brush controlling range fires over past decades, the juniper encroachment created a whole new and not very savory ecosystem akin to pine desert.

Thanks for the Compliment

I was called by a local to help out with what I could.
Heard his side of the story.
Called every State and County Department to fined out what was going on. I live 7 1/2 hours away and can not go up there right now.
Got the run around with no true info. from the State or County Everyone passing the Buck.

Shots Fired ya that Pissed me off but I am 7 1/2 hours away.

I dug in deeper to get any info. I could.

As a last resort I called the Sheriff and He was the only 0ne that gave me the ranchers #

So I called the Rancher and he explained His side of the story of what was going on.

So 9 days latter I have heard both sides of the story.
I called the State Trust Land Department to verify what the Rancher told me.
Chewed them out for not being up front with me in the first place.

Informed my friend and let him know every thing that I was told so he could let everyone know in the area what was happening to get them to calm down.

I did all of this from 7 1/2 hours away from my property.

and No one up there except one other property owner called the Rancher and He did not verify what the Rancher said with the State Department and He did not pass what the Rancher told him to the other Owners in the area.

Yep you hit the NAIL ON THE HEAD

I am an Urban MORON when I start asking questions about tensions between my Neighbors and a Rancher in the area.

YEP IF THAT MAKES ME A MORON THEN I AM A MORON.

Coming from someone that probably sits on is ARRSS when his Friends and Neighbors are having what they think is a problem and doing nothing.

I take what you say about me as a compliment

Thank You Sir.