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Posted By: stxhunter Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
https://www.texasmonthly.com/politi...e8KkPlJO1sWCRu8IInxGDLJogaPNn_r7HRldcXd0

Rachel Oswald did not kill John F. Kennedy, but for more than three decades she has struggled to make peace with the darkest day in Texas history.

marsh 1995 issue.


The Texas Chili Parlor is a neighborhood bar without a neighborhood. Stuck in the no-man’s-land between the state capitol and the University of Texas campus, the Chili Parlor is so steeped in Austin tradition that its decision several years ago to begin offering chili with beans got coverage on the local TV news. The bar’s decor consists chiefly of scuffed wooden tables and junkyard scraps nailed to the walls—rusted license plates, cow skulls, yellowed newspaper clippings, and a hand-scrawled sign above the cash register noting that “Tipping is not a city in China.” Old Life magazine photographs used to hang on the walls, including one of Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald. “I don’t think anybody I worked with ever thought twice about it,” Rachel Oswald said. “You see that image everywhere; it’s easy to take it for granted. But it was still depressing, seeing my father shot every time I came to work.”

For seven years Rachel was a waitress at the Chili Parlor while she put herself through nursing school. One night at the end of her shift, she and I shared a bowl of queso, chips, and $2 Bloody Marys. I asked Rachel how many people in the bar knew who she was.

“Who I am?” she asked. “Or who my father was?”

I nodded that I appreciated the distinction.

“The people I’ve worked with the longest know. A few of the regulars.”

The late-night air had become a distinctive Texas medley of cigarette smoke and day-old chili fumes. Stevie Ray Vaughan was turned up loud on the radio. In a bar filled with pretty women, Rachel was striking enough to turn heads. She wore a purple dress from a vintage clothing store, platform shoes, and a black string choker. Even at 29, she had a tomboyish quality, and when she laughed, she seemed to be all elbows and collarbones. In conversation, Rachel could be both reserved and outgoing, and though she speaks with a slow drawl, her dark eyes, high cheeks, and thick, heavy eyebrows make it clear she is of Slavic descent. She looks a bit like Helena Bonham Carter, who, coincidentally, played her mother, Marina, in a 1993 TV movie about the Oswald family.

Rachel Oswald.

Bill Abrecht

It is difficult to imagine what life must be like for the child of a celebrity—having a recognizable last name, a childhood in the spotlight. But imagine the life of a child fathered by a villain, a child cursed with a name like Booth or Oswald. Especially Oswald. Even now, three decades after President Kennedy’s death, the name still stirs up strong emotions—particularly in Texas. To much of the world, Texas is Dallas, the place where JFK was shot. Most Texans resent this with a passion, and many of them blame Rachel’s father.

“You know, it’s interesting if you think about it,” Rachel said, lighting a cigarette. “Probably the only other people in America who have to routinely see film images of their father being killed are the children of President Kennedy.” She blew a long stream of smoke toward the ceiling. “Kinda strange, huh?”

Audrey Marina Rachel Oswald was 33 days old when President Kennedy was killed, 35 days old when Jack Ruby killed her father. She was born in Dallas’ Parkland Memorial Hospital, the same hospital where both Kennedy and her father were transported after being shot.

Rachel’s mother, Marina, then barely in her twenties, had arrived from Minsk, Russia, only a year earlier and spoke very little English. According to Rachel, in the months immediately after Lee’s murder, Marina, Rachel, and her two-year-old sister survived chiefly on the charity of churches in the Dallas suburb of Richardson.

I asked what it was like being named Oswald and growing up so close to Dallas.

Rachel thought for a moment. “I didn’t know my family was any different until I was about seven. One day, my mother sat my sister and me down on our big green couch and told us that the man who had raised us as our father—our stepfather, Kenneth—was not, you know, our real father, and that our real father’s name was Lee Oswald and that he had, well, that he had been accused of killing the president of the United States.” Rachel smiled. “This helped explain why our school bus was sometimes followed by news teams, why our mailbox got shot at, why kids at school would ask, ‘Did your daddy shoot the president?’ At home we rarely discussed Lee. We were just trying to be a normal family. Every once in a while my mother would say that I looked like him, that I ate like him, that my legs looked like his legs, but for the most part we just didn’t talk about it.”

I asked her what else she remembered about growing up.

“I remember that my mother was very beautiful, that she had been written up in Life magazine. When we moved to Rockwall, which was much smaller than Richardson—people there lived on farming and football—everyone in town knew my mother. She was this delicate Russian beauty, widowed by a man who shot the president. We were of interest to people. For the most part, folks were nice, but they were always whispering things. I remember that helicopters flew over my mother’s wedding to my stepfather, that it was sort of a big deal in the news.”

In 1982 a national tabloid newspaper ran an unauthorized cover story on Rachel and her sister claiming, OSWALD KIDS DON’T HAVE DOGS OR DATES. The word “Oswald” was stamped in red ink over photographs of the two girls. According to the story, Rachel was a miserable, lonely child—her dogs had been poisoned, she had never been asked out on a date, she had no friends, her family couldn’t even afford to buy albums for her record player. In truth, Rachel was a healthy, active teenager. She studied gymnastics and ballet, made good grades, was a varsity cheerleader, and was even voted most popular student by her classmates.

“Don’t get me wrong,” Rachel said, blushing a little. “I was shy—and I chose not to date much—but enough of the article was false that we filed a lawsuit and they settled out of court. I mean, things weren’t completely normal. Sometimes when the cheerleading squad went to football games in different towns, people in the stands would shout stuff at me—you know, ‘Your daddy shot Kennedy’ or ‘Good thing your daddy’s dead and buried.’ But mostly things were pretty normal. The kids didn’t care much one way or the other. It was usually the parents who did weird stuff.”

As Van Morrison’s “Moondance” started up on the radio, Rachel danced her shoulders a little and then lit another cigarette. “Dating was a little tricky,” she said. “There was always the question of whether I should tell the guy about Lee. If so, do I tell him on the first date or the third? What if I don’t tell him at all? Believe it or not, a couple of guys at UT refused to ask me out again after I told them about my dad. One guy I told actually thought I was crazy. He got really scared and wanted to take me to a hospital. I guess it was easier for him to believe that I was insane than that Lee was my father. I’ve had assassination buffs send me roses and love letters. One guy tracked me down to the Chili Parlor and for a while was coming in several nights a week. I’ve listened to customers talk about Lee and the shooting, especially after JFK came out, without them knowing who I was. I actually once had a customer refuse to tip me. He said, ‘I know who your father is,’ and then he just got up and shook his head and left. What it boils down to is that every time I meet someone—every person at a party, every customer I wait on, every classmate, every teacher, every would-be friend—I ask myself: Do they know who I am? Are they looking at me that way because of me or because I’m the daughter of Lee Harvey Oswald?”

Over a final round of drinks we started talking about the movie JFK. I asked her what she thought of Gary Oldman’s portrayal of her father.

The question brought her up from her Bloody Mary. “The first time I met Gary,” she said, “I was visiting my mother in Dallas. She told me that there was going to be a movie made about the assassination and asked if I wanted to have lunch that afternoon with Oliver Stone and Kevin Costner—my mother didn’t even know who they were—and I was thinking to myself, ‘Oh, my gosh, I’m going to have lunch with Oliver Stone and Kevin Costner!’ So we meet them at a Chinese restaurant. It was so exciting, you know, me being a young woman and everything. At the time I didn’t know Gary was involved in the movie, in fact I didn’t really even know who he was. But when he walked into the restaurant, he had come straight from rehearsal and seemed really tired—they were doing the scene where Lee was held in jail—and he was wearing the same white T-shirt and blue overshirt that Lee had been wearing, his hair was cut like Lee’s, and the way he walked—he looked exactly like him. Then he sat down. I got really embarrassed, but every time I looked up we would catch each other’s eye. I think he was checking me out because I look very much like my father, and I think he was trying to get a feel for my dad by looking at me. And then at one point, while he’s asking my mother questions about Lee, he starts to cry. He said that he had been in jail for hours doing this scene—that he had been in handcuffs since dawn, that he’d been beaten up and spit at—and that he had come to really empathize with what had happened to my father, and that now, looking at his wife and daughter, it really broke his heart to know what we had all gone through. We were terribly moved by this. As far has his portrayal in the movie, let me tell you—Gary Oldman is an actor. I remember my sister and I going to his hotel room and seeing twelve books about my father on the nightstand. Apparently he had even gone to my father’s grave. I mean, I’ve never gone to my father’s grave.”

“Is the movie accurate then?”

“Everything about my father is accurate.”

“So, what do you think really happened? Do you think your father pulled the trigger?”

Rachel was quiet for a moment. “I think Lee was this twenty-four-year-old guy, this youngster, who got himself in over his head. Lee was intelligent, but he was no genius. I don’t know who else was involved, but clearly it was too big of a deal for one twenty-four-year-old kid to do by himself. For example, right before the shooting someone asked my mother to take a picture of Lee holding a rifle, and then right after the shooting, the picture is confiscated, and everyone says, ‘Look, there’s the gun, there’s the guy who did it, case closed.’ And apparently there were police recordings of someone saying Jack Ruby was planning to kill Lee, and sure enough, the next day Jack Ruby makes his way through all the police and kills Lee live on national TV. I mean, think about it. There are just too many loose ends for it all to be dumped on my father. It was just too big of a deal. Until I was twenty-three, I didn’t even know there were alternative theories. I’ve only read a couple of books about it. I’m sorry for my father’s pain, but basically I just want it to be over, one way or another, especially by the time I have kids.

Marina Oswald and her mother-in-law, Marguerite Claverie Oswald, are seen through a window at the Dallas police station where her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald was being held in the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy, Nov. 22, 1963. Marina holds her 5-week-old daughter, Rachel.

AP Photo

“It’s hard having things written about you that aren’t true. For example, this TV movie about my family. When I read the script, I was really angry. It’s set in 1978, when I was fifteen and my sister was seventeen. The writers portray me as this traumatized, victimized kid—there’s a scene of me having a birthday party that no one comes to—just me in my birthday hat all by myself. That never happened. In the final scene they have my sister and me walking hand in hand to the Kennedy Memorial, singing ‘We Shall Overcome.’ That never happened either. I’ve never even been to the Kennedy Memorial. The writers never talked to me or my sister about our lives. I guess they decided we must be a certain way and then wrote it. That kind of stuff makes you feel violated. I’ve tried not to make a big deal about things. I’ve never tried to profit from any of this—I’ve waited tables for the last six years, making maybe forty or fifty bucks a night, to pay my way through college and nursing school. I have a bachelor’s degree in natural sciences. I drive a beat-up car. I’m just a regular person. But there are still people who refuse to believe that I could be normal. That’s what I hope my kids will never have to go through.”

“Do you have any pictures of you and your father?”

“No. All of our family pictures were confiscated.”

The bartenders were closing up, and Rachel said she needed to call it a night. There was more I wanted to ask, but it was clear from her face that she was wondering if she hadn’t shared too much already. Looking at her, I was struck again by the peculiarity of the moment. I was sitting next to the daughter of a presidential assassin, an attractive and healthy woman who apparently wanted nothing more from life than to be a good nurse. (Rachel went on to graduate from nursing school and find a job in the field.) If it is true that poetry is the silence between words, then there is something genuinely poetic about the life Rachel Oswald is quietly leading between the headlines.
Posted By: kenjs1 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Interesting read. The fact that Marina was such an innocent and perhaps because she was attractive has helped her case. I imagine the daughter's too. Considering the Cuban missile crisis was so close to the assassination and Marina was a Russian it seems surprising that there wasn't lot of anti-russian protests at the time.
Posted By: RufusG Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Neat story
The whole thing reeks of a coup.
Posted By: rockinbbar Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Too bad idiots poisoned the kids dogs and taunted them.
Posted By: Rock Chuck Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
I think Oswald was involved or they wouldn't have killed him and I certainly don't think he acted alone. I think they were trying to shut him up before he implicated the others, whoever they were.
Posted By: rockinbbar Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
The opinion the woman has that a 24 year old cannot plan or execute a deal that big is a total and complete fallacy.

We have been shown time and time again that disturbed people much younger than that can plan and follow through with evil.
Evil is one issue.

Planning and executing the assassination of the president of the United Sates is quite another issue altogether.
Posted By: Oldman03 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I think Oswald was involved or they wouldn't have killed him and I certainly don't think he acted alone. I think they were trying to shut him up before he implicated the others, whoever they were.


JFK Jr. asked LBJ, "Why did you kill my daddy". (might not be a direct quote)

They know who did it and why... just part of the swamp
Posted By: rockinbbar Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Originally Posted by sportingspecialist
Evil is one issue.

Planning and executing the assassination of the president of the United Sates is quite another issue altogether.



Yeah.

It was much harder for a 24 year old to get a rifle into his place of employment in the 60's than it is for a high school kid to bring one to school.

Right?
Posted By: 22250rem Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Which is another reason that to this day I still can't believe the president of the U.S. was allowed to ride through a city, any city, in an open convertible. Seems as if the rest of the world learned their lesson on that back in 1914 with Archduke Ferdinand.
Posted By: rockinbbar Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
The entire scope of what the Secret Service does to secure the POTUS changed that day.

The day our innocence was lost and we stopped trusting people.

It was also a dark, dark day for the 2nd Amendment.
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Originally Posted by sportingspecialist
Evil is one issue.
Planning and executing the assassination of the president of the United Sates is quite another issue altogether

Yeah.
It was much harder for a 24 year old to get a rifle into his place of employment in the 60's than it is for a high school kid to bring one to school.
Right?


What's your point?
Posted By: curdog4570 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
“ Well, I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor Bar

Drinking Maddog Margaritas and not caring where you are..”

That’s the opening line in Guy Clark’s classic “ Dublin Blues”.

Until the song became famous there was no such drink, but people kept coming into the bar and ordering Maddog Margaritas that the owner had to invent one.

There is not likely to ever be an explanation about Kennedy’s assasination that will be widely accepted. Just pick out a villain, assign blame, and keep on paying taxes.
Posted By: Tyrone Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I think Oswald was involved or they wouldn't have killed him and I certainly don't think he acted alone. I think they were trying to shut him up before he implicated the others, whoever they were.

It's no mistake that Ruby was terminally ill.
Posted By: rickt300 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
I can't believe there was no conspiracy, how did Oswald know to be working in the building months before the parade was planned?
Posted By: 5sdad Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
I think Oswald was involved or they wouldn't have killed him and I certainly don't think he acted alone. I think they were trying to shut him up before he implicated the others, whoever they were.

It's no mistake that Ruby was terminally ill.


Before or after he entered prison?
Posted By: BOWSINGER Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Originally Posted by 22250rem
Which is another reason that to this day I still can't believe the president of the U.S. was allowed to ride through a city, any city, in an open convertible. Seems as if the rest of the world learned their lesson on that back in 1914 with Archduke Ferdinand.


In those days lots of presidents rode in the open.
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
I was in Austin pretty regular in the mid 90s and my girlfriend and I ate there several times and were waited on by her several times. My girlfriend sort of knew her through mutual friends.
Posted By: Mannlicher Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
I have zero sympathy for the Oswald family. Wife and kid should have gone back to mother russia. Screw 'em
Posted By: mtnsnake Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Setup...
Posted By: deflave Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Shot a Kennedy?

I call that being ahead of your time!

(joke font. Please don't arrest me)
Posted By: Bristoe Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Things sure went to hell for several years after Kennedy was shot. Not that I'm a big fan of his.

But I wonder if the Vietnam war escalation and the resultant turmoil of the 60's would have occurred if he hadn't been.

Seems to me that there's a big possibility that his death changed the course of the nation pretty significantly.
Posted By: 12344mag Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Too bad idiots poisoned the kids dogs and taunted them.


Sickening to say the least.

The wife and kids should have had more help than they knew what to do with.
Posted By: hanco Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/21/19
Her life has been interesting to say the least. Every year more and more people die that remember his tragic death. He had just passed where I was standing with the other straight A students that got to see the parade. We were on the way to the bus when word spread through the crowd. It seems like yesterday.
Posted By: Dillonbuck Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by deflave
Shot a Kennedy?

I call that being ahead of your time!

(joke font. Please don't arrest me)





No, that's not funny.





The truth usually isn't.


I bet the JFK of 1963 would blow a gasket over his party today.
But that begs a question,
If he had lived, would he have devolved into what the Dems are now,
Or would he have been an influence that kept them on track?
Posted By: Old_Toot Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Bristoe
Things sure went to hell for several years after Kennedy was shot. Not that I'm a big fan of his.

But I wonder if the Vietnam war escalation and the resultant turmoil of the 60's would have occurred if he hadn't been.

Seems to me that there's a big possibility that his death changed the course of the nation pretty significantly.



This.
Posted By: Paradiddle Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
I don't know the truth, and neither will any of us. I will say after visiting the book depository and taking the tour, you could have thrown a [bleep] bag of flower out the window and killed the president. The car was stopped. Right under the window. Making the left. Could have thrown a rock and killed him. Shot him with a 38 special. Why anyone waiting for a very tough shot is beyond me.
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Paradiddle
I don't know the truth, and neither will any of us. I will say after visiting the book depository and taking the tour, you could have thrown a [bleep] bag of flower out the window and killed the president. The car was stopped. Right under the window. Making the left. Could have thrown a rock and killed him. Shot him with a 38 special. Why anyone waiting for a very tough shot is beyond me.


Because he would have to lean halfway out the window to shoot straight down and have been visible to all the secret service and cops. It was an 88 yard shot. It was not “very tough”.
Posted By: scottf270 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Was just in Dallas Saturday. Went to the exact spot. An X painted on the roadway. Whole area much closer and smaller than I thought it would be.
Posted By: deflave Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Dillonbuck



No, that's not funny.





The truth usually isn't.


I bet the JFK of 1963 would blow a gasket over his party today.
But that begs a question,
If he had lived, would he have devolved into what the Dems are now,
Or would he have been an influence that kept them on track?



Well, it's pretty well documented he opposed integration until his brother and others gave their analysis.

He also didn't want MLK anywhere near him or his staff, until the size of the crowds were affirmed.

What does that tell us?
Posted By: Barkoff Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Thanks for posting.
When I worked that movie job, I came to know the gal the movie was written about pretty well, being we were both from the same town. Hollywood is so [bleep] up, they always think the audience would rather have their embellishments than the real truth. She was supposed to have a say in the final script, but in the end they screwed her and did what they wanted..much like Oswald explains, they just make schitt up that never happened, and do what they want regardless of what the real subject wants
Posted By: mtnsnake Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
His own guard shot him by accident.
Posted By: kenjs1 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by 22250rem
Which is another reason that to this day I still can't believe the president of the U.S. was allowed to ride through a city, any city, in an open convertible. Seems as if the rest of the world learned their lesson on that back in 1914 with Archduke Ferdinand.

A secret serviceman was supposed to be standing on rear of the car (bumper or step) but allegedly Kennedy waved him off as he wanted to be seen by as many as possible.

That one little decision.......
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by scottf270
Was just in Dallas Saturday. Went to the exact spot. An X painted on the roadway. Whole area much closer and smaller than I thought it would be.



The closeness of everything and the lack of acreage in the plaza makes a lot of these theories ludicrous.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by scottf270
Was just in Dallas Saturday. Went to the exact spot. An X painted on the roadway. Whole area much closer and smaller than I thought it would be.



The closeness of everything and the lack of acreage in the plaza makes a lot of these theories ludicrous.


Oh yeah? wait till jaguartx finds this thread.....

Juat drove by it on the way to the airport on Sunday. I was in the back seat with my wife and I ducked as we passed the window. She slugged me and called me insensitive..
Posted By: DarlaG Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by kenjs1
Originally Posted by 22250rem
Which is another reason that to this day I still can't believe the president of the U.S. was allowed to ride through a city, any city, in an open convertible. Seems as if the rest of the world learned their lesson on that back in 1914 with Archduke Ferdinand.

A secret serviceman was supposed to be standing on rear of the car (bumper or step) but allegedly Kennedy waved him off as he wanted to be seen by as many as possible.

That one little decision.......


kenjs1,

"------ for the want of a nail, "

yours, tex
Posted By: Barkoff Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
From m the history I have read, it was Kenedy’s call to ride with the top down, kind of works against a consificy theory.??
If there was a conspiracy, how could they have planned for the top down? I think Oswald just got lucky
Posted By: deflave Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Barkoff
From m the history I have read, it was Kenedy’s call to ride with the top down, kind of works against a consificy theory.??
If there was a conspiracy, how could they have planned for the top down? I think Oswald just got lucky


That’s a myth.

There wasn’t an ounce of protection on that vehicle. They were built for show and nothing else.

The transparent tops were for inclement weather. JFK wouldn’t have been asked schit that morning. It was a beautiful day.
Posted By: Magnum_Bob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
I've all ways thought Henry's theory to have relevance on whether the actual assination happen the way we've been told all our lives. " one would have to have brain cancer to have picked a 6.5 Carcano with a cheap scope to hit moving targets at that distance" fast work with a good bolt and scope moving at that distance maybe but a cheap clunker? With the precision of a world class marksman? Still don't believe it went down the way they said it did, lying bastards. MB
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Magnum_Bob
I've all ways thought Henry's theory to have relevance on whether the actual assination happen the way we've been told all our lives. " one would have to have brain cancer to have picked a 6.5 Carcano with a cheap scope to hit moving targets at that distance" fast work with a good bolt and scope moving at that distance maybe but a cheap clunker? With the precision of a world class marksman? Still don't believe it went down the way they said it did, lying bastards. MB


Hitting a target a little bigger than a cantaloupe one out of three tries at 88 yards is world class precision?
Posted By: deflave Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by kenjs1
Originally Posted by 22250rem
Which is another reason that to this day I still can't believe the president of the U.S. was allowed to ride through a city, any city, in an open convertible. Seems as if the rest of the world learned their lesson on that back in 1914 with Archduke Ferdinand.

A secret serviceman was supposed to be standing on rear of the car (bumper or step) but allegedly Kennedy waved him off as he wanted to be seen by as many as possible.

That one little decision.......


That is also a myth. Agents stayed on or off the steps as speed and crowds dictated.
Posted By: RufusG Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Magnum_Bob
I've all ways thought Henry's theory to have relevance on whether the actual assination happen the way we've been told all our lives. " one would have to have brain cancer to have picked a 6.5 Carcano with a cheap scope to hit moving targets at that distance" fast work with a good bolt and scope moving at that distance maybe but a cheap clunker? With the precision of a world class marksman? Still don't believe it went down the way they said it did, lying bastards. MB


Not widely known but "Carcano" is Italian for "Creedmore". Kennedy never stood a chance.
Posted By: Terryk Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by scottf270
Was just in Dallas Saturday. Went to the exact spot. An X painted on the roadway. Whole area much closer and smaller than I thought it would be.


My sister lives in Dallas, and she took me there. The museum is pretty nice, and like Scott said, it is pretty amazing how close the shot was. The whole area is a lot smaller standing there as compared to watching it on TV. I went again with a guy from work a few years after that because we were at a conference and needed something to see. Again a was impressed how small it was.

If I was Oswald and wanted to gun down an important official, I would have bought the M1 Garand shown in the same ad he bought the Carcano. He was a Marine, and the M1 was his soulmate. Anyway the Garand thing was always fishy to me, but I think he was a nut so I guess he did not make the obvious choice.

The killing did alter history a lot. I'm guessing Johnson does not get a chance to play into VN, and Nixon's future would not be watergate. No Carter, no Ford.
Posted By: Magnum_Bob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Moving Joe Bob, he hit Texas Governor Connally also. In damn short time period at the last moment a shot was possible before the car was out of his sight. I'll stand on what I first said. I've handled Carcano's and they are a POS. MB
If LHO was the lone shooter, what possible reason would the Warren Commission have to lock up their findings for 50 years? And now that 50 years have passed, why hasn't DJT released the findings? Because LHO was nothing more than a feckless patsy.
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Magnum_Bob
Moving Joe Bob, he hit Texas Governor Connally also. In damn short time period at the last moment a shot was possible before the car was out of his sight. I'll stand on what I first said. I've handled Carcano's and they are a POS. MB


I own a couple and they ain’t that bad. They’re pretty comparable to everything else for the era.
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Terryk
Originally Posted by scottf270
Was just in Dallas Saturday. Went to the exact spot. An X painted on the roadway. Whole area much closer and smaller than I thought it would be.


My sister lives in Dallas, and she took me there. The museum is pretty nice, and like Scott said, it is pretty amazing how close the shot was. The whole area is a lot smaller standing there as compared to watching it on TV. I went again with a guy from work a few years after that because we were at a conference and needed something to see. Again a was impressed how small it was.

If I was Oswald and wanted to gun down an important official, I would have bought the M1 Garand shown in the same ad he bought the Carcano. He was a Marine, and the M1 was his soulmate. Anyway the Garand thing was always fishy to me, but I think he was a nut so I guess he did not make the obvious choice.

The killing did alter history a lot. I'm guessing Johnson does not get a chance to play into VN, and Nixon's future would not be watergate. No Carter, no Ford.


Oswald was dirt poor and the Carcano was about the cheapest thing you could get.
Posted By: IndyCA35 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Making that shot with a WWII Carcano--under 100 yards, slow moving vehicle--would have been duck soup.

We know Oswald did it. Anyone who thinks there was some conspiracy would have to explain why any conspirators would have let a nut flake like Oswald in on it at all, not even arranging for him to escape after the deed.

Oswald did it alone.
Posted By: rainshot Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
What if Oswald was a patsy?
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Well, since to detractors a Carcano is so inferior as to make the shot improbable if not impossible, then the first thing they could have done with a patsy is arm him with a more believable rifle.
Posted By: deflave Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
I don't know that Oswald wasn't part of a conspiracy but the non-stop hand wringing over distance, difficulty, and inferiority of a chose weapon is absolute fugking nonsense.

Not only is it feasible, it's not even difficult for anyone that shoots much.
Posted By: Morewood Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
"Back and to the left."

That head shot wasn't from the book repository. There was more than one shooter.
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Morewood
"Back and to the left."

That head shot wasn't from the book repository. There was more than one shooter.


Have you been there?
Posted By: Morewood Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
No
Posted By: deflave Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Morewood
"Back and to the left."

That head shot wasn't from the book repository. There was more than one shooter.


Oh brother.

Go kill some schit and get back to us.
Posted By: kroo88 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Could someone please list the evidence against Mr Oswald?

To include who actually provided said evidence.
Posted By: Barkoff Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Did Oswald get his job at the book depository before or after they announced the motorcade route?
If it’s true the route was only announced days before, that was a pretty good hunch by the conspirators.
What about the shot Oswald took at the General, why would they allow him to do that?
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/22/19
Originally Posted by Morewood
No


It’s too small. If there had been a [bleep] from somewhere else, there would be no doubt.
Posted By: hasbeen1945 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
Goggle James Files. Claims he was on the grassy knol. He used a Remington XP 100. Hasbeen
Posted By: Fubarski Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
Originally Posted by rainshot
What if Oswald was a patsy?


Not any more a patsy than the @sshole that shot up the Republican ball practice.

Probably more coincidences and possible conspiracies in that shooting than ol' Ozzie.

Guy wasn't from around there, brought his rifles, pistols with him, "found out" about the practice, etc.
Posted By: BobMt Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
I have zero sympathy for the Oswald family. Wife and kid should have gone back to mother russia. Screw 'em


it wasn't the wife or kids fault....bob
Posted By: Morewood Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Morewood
"Back and to the left."

That head shot wasn't from the book repository. There was more than one shooter.


Oh brother.

Go kill some schit and get back to us.

I've killed lots of "schit".

Enough to know that the fateful head shot came from the President's 2 o'clock or thereabouts.

Read some books.
Posted By: curdog4570 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
If you are the CIA and you want to take out Kennedy, you know all about the route the Limo will take. And....you know this flake named Oswald who already, on his own, tried to shoot a General, was pissed about the Bay of Pigs, and would make a perfect patsy, just happens to work at the SBD. ( or maybe you were instrumental in mapping that route). So you enlist Oswald, telling him you’ll pick him up after the shooting. You have your own assassin on the grassy knoll with a pistol. You figure Oswald will be killed by the Dallas cops. When he’s not, enter Jack Ruby.

That’s probably wrong but it’s more believable than the Warren Commision.

John Connally claimed to his dying day that he was not hir with the same bullet that hit JFK. But what does he know...... right ?
Posted By: stxhunter Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
well LHO was on Atlee Parr's ranch practicing shooting two months before the shooting. knew a old guy who leased the parr ranch and saw him there. Parr's and LBJ.....
Posted By: deflave Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
Originally Posted by Morewood
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Morewood
"Back and to the left."

That head shot wasn't from the book repository. There was more than one shooter.


Oh brother.

Go kill some schit and get back to us.

I've killed lots of "schit".

Enough to know that the fateful head shot came from the President's 2 o'clock or thereabouts.

Read some books.


^^^Another one born every minute.^^^
Posted By: dieselfitter Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
Originally Posted by scottf270
Was just in Dallas Saturday. Went to the exact spot. An X painted on the roadway. Whole area much closer and smaller than I thought it would be.

I was there Saturday as well, so damn cold and windy you couldn't enjoy the grassy knoll
Posted By: bigsqueeze Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
Any finalized LHO legacy imo would all depend or be determined by any future document releases, which would either seal his legacy as the lone nut assassin, or involved in it with others, or had no clue about it and was set up as the scape goat or patsy. I as many believe there was more than one shooter..

Let's assume that LHO was the lone nut assassin. Then a few questions come to mind as to certain events after the assassination.

1).....Why then was the body quickly removed from Parkland Hospital, in violation Texas law, thereby preventing a competent and thorough autopsy? Well if LHO was the sole shooter, that certainly would have sealed the deal, proving beyond all doubt that in fact three shots were fired from the southeast corner 6th floor window of the depository building.

2).....In Parkland hospital, the body was placed in a very expensive bronze ceremonial casket. We have all seen the pic of that casket being carried up the stairs to the plane. SO WHY at Bethesda Naval hospital in DC several hours later did the body arrive in a plain metal grey shipping type casket enclosed in a body bag? Two autopsy medical techs namely Paul Kelly O'Connor and Dennis David were both at Bethesda the evening of 11/22/63. Both helped remove the body from that shipping casket, both gave subsequent interviews years later to author David Lifton and others and revealed as fact that this occurred. Both were ordered by their superiors to keep silent and both were ordered to sign documents for their guarantee of silence.......So if LHO was the sole shooter, then why the need for a casket swap and the silence of the techs? Why go through that? So between Parkland hospital and Bethesda, did the body of JFK require a few modifications in the head/scalp area in order to, as best as possible, make it look as though shots were fired from the rear only?????

3).....Why at the official Bethesda autopsy, were not the finest or best possible forensic pathologists called in or assigned???? Instead, James Humes and Thornton Boswell both with NO forensic experience were assigned. Afterall and if in fact LHO was the sole assassin, then would not you want only the best forensic pathologists to confirm that shots fired from the rear???

4).....Why during the autopsy, did some who were there, dictate to both Humes and Boswell to forego a smooth flow and orderly proceedure, as told in later years by O'Connor and David??......IF LHO acted alone, then why would outsiders or govt personnel need to dictate the flow and proceedure in a hap hazard way???

5).....IF LHO acted alone, then why were certain members of the secret service ordered to clean up the limousine even before it was removed from the Parkland hospital area??? The splatter patterns of brain matter and blood along with the position of scalp debris would have easily determined from where the shots were fired. That limo was a crime scene.

6).....Why and who ordered the limo to be flown to the Dearborn Michigan Ford plant (arrived there on Nov 25) to be quickly and completely gutted and its front windshield quickly replaced??? IF LHO acted all alone, then a thorough forensic examination that limo would have confirmed it.

7)......Who ordered the removal of John Connolly's suit from Parkland hospital to be taken to the cleaners for cleaning and fabric repair of the bullet holes??? Another crucial piece of evidence sealing Oswald's fate if he acted alone.

8).....If Oswald acted alone firing a 6.5mm round nosed bullet weighing 160 grains from the rear, then why is it that all the doctors who attended JFK in trauma room 1, all stated that there was a gaping hole at the right rear occipital portion of the skull about the size of a small grapefruit?? Dr. Charles Crenshaw, Dr. Robert McClellan, Dr. Kenneth Salyer were among many who saw a large jagged and gaping hole at the back of the skull.

9).....If Oswald acted alone, then why did Parkland hospital's Dr. Malcomb Perry initially see a small and neat wound of entrance in the throat area approximately 1/4 inch in diameter? A small and neat exit wound???

10}....If Oswald acted alone, then how is it that Warren Commission exhibit # 399, aka the magic bullet, when weighed, weighed 158 grains after supposedly going through Kennedy and then entering Connolly's upper right rear back shattering 4 inches of rib, exiting and then shattering bones in his right wrist and lodging in his thigh???.....X rays of Connolly's thigh area showed bullet fragments which remained in his leg for the rest of his life and was of course buried with those fragments never being removed. I guess then that Connolly had only 2 grains of bullet fragmentation in his leg??? Whoooops!

11).....Why then if Oswald acted alone, did J Edgar Hoover order all evidence of the assassination to be turned over to the FBI from the Dallas PD within 72 hours of the assassination?? Why didn't Hoover continue to let the Dallas PD continue its investigation???

12).....Paul Kelly O.Connor (Bethesda Tech) in an interview from "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" stated specifically, that most of the right side of the skull including the right rear portion of the skull had been blasted away and/or was missing. He also stated that there was very little brain matter remaining within the skull cavity. So if Oswald acted alone, one 6.5mm 160 gr round nosed FMJ bullet did all of that damage to the skull when fired from the rear??? Whooooops!

If Oswald acted alone, then the EXACT OPPOSITE of what did occur after the fact,,,,SHOULD have occurred...............Oswald the lone nut case shooter??? NO WAY!....The conduct of the govt and their actions after the assassination was completely opposite if in fact Oswald acted alone. I hope that someday, that it is somehow proven that,,,, A) Oswald was completely innocent or,,,, B) if involved he had some help.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
And we're off! on the fast train to KOOK-A-MANGA......
Posted By: Bocajnala Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/23/19
The idea that a 24 year old couldn't have done this on their own is silly.

I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

-Jake
Posted By: kenjs1 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by kenjs1
Originally Posted by 22250rem
Which is another reason that to this day I still can't believe the president of the U.S. was allowed to ride through a city, any city, in an open convertible. Seems as if the rest of the world learned their lesson on that back in 1914 with Archduke Ferdinand.

A secret serviceman was supposed to be standing on rear of the car (bumper or step) but allegedly Kennedy waved him off as he wanted to be seen by as many as possible.

That one little decision.......


That is also a myth. Agents stayed on or off the steps as speed and crowds dictated.

You had me double checking. Here is what a NY times article says about it:
About the bumper steps

It doesn't say that Kennedy told agents not to ride the steps on Nov 21- but it does say he told the two agents to ride in a the follow-up car just three days earlier.
Posted By: 5sdad Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
Originally Posted by stxhunter
well LHO was on Atlee Parr's ranch practicing shooting two months before the shooting. knew a old guy who leased the parr ranch and saw him there. Parr's and LBJ.....



Which LHO was it?
Posted By: kroo88 Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
Originally Posted by jorgeI
And we're off! on the fast train to KOOK-A-MANGA......


Your role as the sole arbiter of any and all conspiracies is well established.

I almost forgot.
Posted By: stxhunter Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
Originally Posted by 5sdad
Originally Posted by stxhunter
well LHO was on Atlee Parr's ranch practicing shooting two months before the shooting. knew a old guy who leased the parr ranch and saw him there. Parr's and LBJ.....



Which LHO was it?

its fact he was in Alice texas during that time period the local news paper ran a story on it. look up George Parr and the connect to LBJ.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/go-ask-alice/

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fpa36
Posted By: 5sdad Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
I don't dispute any of that, I just wonder which of the LHOs it was that was present.
Posted By: stxhunter Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
Originally Posted by 5sdad
I don't dispute any of that, I just wonder which of the LHOs it was that was present.

i get you.
Posted By: LouisB Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
Well at least we know that no one in the fbi to this day would do what they were told, and forget that the truth is unimportant.

We will never know the truth of what happened on that day in Dallas and after.

Provides for so many different and varied theories and speculation of conspiracies though.
Posted By: JoeBob Re: Lee Harvey’s Legacy - 01/25/19
Well, if the last few years have shown anything, they show that a half a dozen people in on a plan can raise hell.
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