Was with a friend today discussing the issue of extended care and nursing homes.
We have mothers that are 90 years old.
He said his mother is moving all of her assets to her kids, so that if she exhausts her bank account in extended care, her other assets can not be seized to pay for her care.
Her assets are a house and farm ground.
This sure does not seem right as the taxpayers will end up supporting her if she runs out of money.
Any comments on this?

A bit late to dispose of assets. There’s a 5 year look back period on assets transfers.

Even it it's not right (and it's not), I believe that Medicaid will go back several years to make sure that asset transfers as discussed have not occurred.

They wanted us to do that with my Mom. I refused because 1--it's not right and 2--Medicare only pays for shiit holes and she could afford a nice place. The cheap places smell like piss when you walk in.

Dale06,
One word for you.

Trust.

In the more expensive places you’ll also have those who are on medicade there and the care is the same as for those paying out of pocket.

It's not right to not meet your obligations.

Also

It's not right for people to be charged $10k a month
until the facility has everything they worked their whole life for.
Then the price drops to 30%, and Medicare takes over.

Dale06: Consult an attorney!
Assets given by an adult to their children within a certain time (years longer now under new legislation!) of their "internment" in an assisted living care facility or nursing home can be "retrieved" by the government from the children - been there done that with the VarmintWifes mother!!!
No one on this earth hates attorneys more than I do but in your and your friends cases their is only a relatively small amount that can be "given/transferred" to peoples children in a year that can be exempt from the government retrieving money to pay for assisted care living/nursing homes!
Again been there done that.
Call the misery mongers for the latest and a clear explanation of current regulations.
Get started in this chore immediately!
And if monies or properties have already been transferred don't spend them unless you have "back-up"!
My wifes mother was in assisted care living for three+ years then in a nursing home three more years before her passing - ALL her assets, savings, paid for home, company pension, social security pension were wiped out by her having to pay for the care she received - LONG before her passing.
Including some monies she transferred to her children and grandchildren that was "retrieved" by the United States Government!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Check out Filial Responsibility laws in your state.

You’re confusing Medicare with Medicaid.

^^^^^^ This!

Don’t compare Assisted Living to Nursing Homes.

Yes, there is a go back period. Transfers should start more than 5 years out. Locally a declining gentleman protected the family assets by divorcing his wife with near everything going to her. Turned out to not be very extended care as he died in about 6 months.

One has to wonder though, just who it was that drafted that kind of reach. Cookie's brother got ill and was in care for about 10 days before passing. The bill came to exactly the assessed value of his home. Survivors got what could be salvaged from a few dresser drawers.

There are ways to transfer funds/property that will not raise flags.

My Mother in law has done that and the wife are co-owners on the accounts.

Thanks
I may have given the wrong impression. I have no plans or thoughts to try to convince my mother to move her assets and pass on her health liabilities to the taxpayer.
And if I did want to do that, she would not do it anyway.
She will pay for her own care.
That probably will mean less assets in here estate, but it’s her health care or assisted living, not yours.
Thanks again for your comments on this topic.

Good for you! I never understood how the same people that would rail against welfare could turn around and think it is a great idea to divest themselves of everything so the goobermint had to pick up their nursing home bills. What better use could there be for your savings than to take care of your needs when you need help.

Jerry

At the risk of sounding cold...in the past, many of these old people would die gracefully at home. Currently, the trend is to keep them alive as long as possible at all costs. Often the last year or few months is miserable for them but medicine can and does keep them alive beyond their normal live span. Many of them who do have some money get drained, leaving nothing to their heirs. The doctors and nursing homes get it all. It seems like most families these days just don't want to deal with them at home in their last days. It's easier to pawn them off on a nursing home, regardless of the very high cost. They find ways to get the government, IE the taxpayers, to pay for what they should do themselves.

My mother is 101 and lives with my sister. My MIL is 92 and lives with us. Both want to avoid a nursing home at all costs but would accept home hospice. Both are solid Christians are are ready to go home. We all pray that when their time comes, they'll go quietly and comfortably at home.

I gave a family a $40,0000 check for an easement payment one time, the son said it will give mom about 5 months additional care before they start selling the propsrty.

It's a tough deal any way you choose, good luck with however your family proceeds with her care.

Dad's in a nursing home (his choice) - runs $6000 / month. He calls it a "damned expensive, high class, hotel" (dripping sarcasm)
He didn't want to go anywhere else, but the least expensive 24/7 care we could come up with was ~ $140K / year.
He's not doing that.

There are alternatives

It is a complicated issue, and no one can give you an exact answer. My parents anticipated this 20 years ago and started gifting money in small amounts to my brother and I at that time over a period of years. The house was put in our name as well and my brother was given power of attorney. This was when my parents were in their 60's. All of that really simplified things, but you have to trust your kids. If mom and dad needed another car or other home repair my brother and I had agreed to pay for it since most of their savings was moved to us.

Dad died 6 years ago after a short illness and did not require any special care. Mom was no longer able to live alone and moved in with me for a year. We were able to sell the house and simply split the money. Living with mom wasn't ideal and after a year she wanted to look into assisted living. It was great. Mom loved it and the costs were reasonable. Her remaining savings would have lasted until she was well into her 90's had she lived that long. She made friends, had her own room with someone else to cook and do laundry. Family visited her, took her to church, and even on long trips to visit her sisters.

Two years ago she came down with pneumonia and by all accounts should not have survived. The Doc in the hospital was hours away from stopping treatment and giving her morphine for pain. Told us that death would be imminent once that started. But she did improve, at least a little. After that a nursing home was the only option. Never say never to a nursing home.
No one wanted to see that, but she needed far more care than was possible in a private home. She lived another year, but never walked or got out of bed again. Just wasted away. She still had some money and with that along with SS we were able to self pay for that year

Mom ran out of money in December of 2017 and we couldn't get anyone who could tell us who or how the bill would get paid in Jan 2018. They just told us to apply for medicade and wait for an answer. My brother and I were prepared to pay if necessary. We tried to do all of the paper work months earlier, but were told you couldn't apply until the cash was gone. She died on 1/1/2018 and we never got another bill.

As near as we can figure out there is a 5 year look back for property. Had the home been gifted to us within 5 years we would have had to pay back a portion. It is pro rated based on how many years. If it had been just a few months prior then we would have lost most of those assets. Had it been 4 years ago we would have still been able to keep 80% of the money from the home. Since this was done more than 5 years before they ran out of money they couldn't touch that money.

As far as cash gifts go there is a $13K limit per year and as near as I can tell there is either a 30 day look back, or no more than 1 year. It depends on who you talk to. When we applied for mom's medicade they only asked for the previous months bank statements.

I'd rather my taxes go to a good American like your mom than a swarm of "welfare refugees".

They all smell like piss and sheit palaces regardless of the price.

There was a case in Spokane, WA IIRC some years ago where a couple did just this. Then, as soon as the papers were signed turning the house over to their son, who was barely of age, he evicted them. There's a special place in hell for people like that.

Set up a trust. My FIL did this. MIL got Alzheimers and went into a home. Kept the house. He went into a home and died last May. The house was in the trust and wasn't taken. I'll set up a trust shortly and I do trust my kids. Told my wife to never put me in a home. My first job was in a home. Wife says she'll drive me out in the woods and drop me off with my SP101. I've seen to many old folks drooling, drugged up. hunched over in a wheel chair set out in a hallway in a home.

For those of you planning for this ask a lawyer about the following: Can you irrevocably gift a remainder interest in your home to one of your solvent children and retain the right to live in the home for X years?

This would have to be done soon enough to avoid the clawback period and I think there is a limit on how many years your retained interest can run. But if I understand this it will let you live out your life in your home and secure it from being taken for your debts.

Not true. they can get a waiver and get into a nice place. The social security check is forfeit except for a 100 a month stipend.

this

Just to clarify if you have any assets the nursing care drains them until you go on medicaid then the government pays till you die poor. Going into nursing care robs family of any assets or inheritance. Avoid nursing care and die at home in your sleep. Unless you are poor its a moot point. Seems wrong........

How is it not right to save the money and land you've worked for your whole life and let the .gov pay for my care same as they'd pay for the care of someone who never worked a day in their life? Or someone who just crawled across the border yesterday?

Stay legal, but work the system that has screwed you your entire working life.

When I reached the point of a nursing home, I hope I still enough strength to go bear hunting with a pocket knife. That way you're either bear turd in 24-hours or getting rich off the book and movie offers!

A plan:

Older fellow told several of us that he wasn’t paying a nursing home one f’n single penny and that they’d never get what he worked for and wanted to pass to his heirs. Said, “I’m gonna get my pistol and go rob a bank, get caught, defend myself in court, go to prison and finish out my days on the government’s dime, get 3 meals a day, a place to sleep and free medical care. Family can come visit anytime that they want.”

seek out and find a good elder attorney

When my father was diagnosed with dementia I made some calls to attorneys in y mom's area. Flew home and forced her to meet with the elder attorney.

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would comment on this trust strategy. I think it is a good one but it is over my depth.

I think it works because in an irrevocable trust it is a completed gift to the remainderman yet your retained interest in residing there for a fixed number of years is pretty much valueless for the state to appropriate. Assuming, of course, that you do this long enough before you become needy. The kid you choose to receive the future interest must also avoid bankruptcy, etc. I suppose.

If you live out your life in your own home and you have Medicare, then what is the need to do anything at all that is Trust related?