I was reading an article and ran across these figures. The numbers in the middle column on the .22LR and 380 surprised me. I don't know who this guy is or anything about him.

Doesn't surprise me.

People are either incapacitated with one shot or not, the percentage totals of columns 2+3 should equal 100.

Works that way most days unless one is promoting some 8-ball agenda.

Me either, most of the people that carry 22’s are midgets in carnivals and the people they shot were other midgets. Comparatively the 22 in a midget is the same as a 44 in a normal sized person...

I'm thinking that people's ability to shoot accurately with a low powered gun has more to do with this than the stopping power of the round, especially with the 22.

These are the three best books ever written on Handguns and Stoppjng Power. The first book is a book that you would want to own.

https://www.amazon.com/Handgun-Stopping-Power-Definitive-Study/dp/0873646533

You catch fish with what you are using for bait...

You carry or have a .22lr at hand, that's what you'll shoot someone with.

You carry a 45ACP, that's what you'll shoot someone with.


That chart could be read that the .22lr is a far more common firearm.

Guy got popped in the head last week.
Think bullet angle had it slide along bone, not go in.
Not incapacitated. He hopped up and was b*tching.

Shooter added a few to kill him. Cops caught the bad guy.

Just giving location of hit doesn't say a lot about the hit IMHO.

Yep

Hense the .38 special.....fully agree....

I think the appropriate term is munchkin or elf.

Not midget.

The chart specifies "head or torso" shot for the middle column, but does not specify shot location in the third column. Third column figures are not as informative as middle column figures.

Agree. Evan Marshall's work is the zenith in handgun one-shot stopping statistics.

I'm thinking that because a 22 is accurate and easy to shoot, that makes the % of shootees that are incapacitated quite high. However, if you can't shoot, no amount of lead in the extremities will stop a bad guy.

I’m thinking the circumstances of the shootings ain’t mentioned. Lots and lots of .22s out there, how many of these shootings were accidental in a non-adversarial circumstance?

Also, how many involved rifles, the ballistics of a .22LR out of a 2” barrel are pretty dismal.

Buy Marshall's book and your questions will be answered.

The article I was reading was about concealed guns. That said, if a bad guy is on the wrong end of my bolt action Marlin 22 rifle, most likely he's not going very far.

"Handguns are convenient to carry but not particularly effective."




Clint Smith.



Big gun, big bullets, big holes.

You didn't read the source material. This table is a very short summary of a rather short article. It is covered adequately in the article. Zero 8ball agenda.

You didnt read the source material either. In fact, his data indicates that people shot more accurately with a 44 magnum than with any other firearm, including long guns.

While I (to) find this incredible to believe, it is the data from 1800 shootings using the methodology he describes.

Yes and no. He accounted for this in his study.

Simply put, by using % you account for this.

I fished for fluke using a cooked hot dog for 3 days straight- 36 hours of daylight. Caught 21 fluke.
I fished the next 20 minutes with a gulp on a bucktail. Caught 7 fluke.

Was it just a fluke?

His study shows that people shot less accurately with a 38 special than with a 357 magnum, 45 auto, or 44 magnum.

one could argue that there was not enough data for the 44.

I am NOT defending the guy. In fact I take issue with his methodology.

I am just pointing out that people hardly ever take the 2 clicks to read source material and issue a "huh" for something that they have already preconceived notions (however good they may be).

You moved from MT to FL. Your judgement is highly suspect.

Yeah. Definitely. Or maybe.

He accounts for rifles in an odd manner. He references 'all rifles' and 'all shotguns' almost as an afterthought.

Can we assume that 22 handgun and 22 rifle data were not present in both sets? I dont know. I couldnt find it, hence I am dubious about his methodology.

Flaky calculations/information regardless.

Crocketnj... I read Ellifritz's report when it first came out. While I applaud the effort, and have a lot of respect for the author, I have to say that there are a lot of methodology problems with it. Like Evan Marshall's OSS data, the methodological problems make its conclusions difficult to rely on. It's interesting, and some generalizations can be taken from it, but that's about it.

Defining the dynamic elements of gunshot wounding from a ballistics standpoint alone is an enormously complex task. The now defunct International Wound Ballistics Association, founded by Dr. Martin Fackler back in the 90's, was intended to inform a larger scientific community and in so doing was hoped to make these complexities easier to grasp. It did not succeed, in no small part because popular demand for answers to "simple" questions like "what caliber gun should I carry?" were not forthcoming.

Ellifritz's report, which is really nothing more than a compendium of partial information from public record of shootings nationwide, is more of an attempt to answer the simple questions than to get down to nitty-gritty solid science in the field of wound ballistics. And on that score, it doesn't really give us good answers. From the table above, you might conclude that a .22 derringer was your best bet for concealed carry, for instance; this doesn't measure up to reality, however.

There are very large privately-held databases on GSW's and incapacitation that will hopefully some day become available to the public. The California database is the largest one I am aware of, and is a collaborative effort by municipal, county, and state agencies. Dr. Gary Roberts, arguably one of the foremost authority on wound ballistics in the past 30 years, has shared some of the conclusions that have been drawn from that and other databases, and these have been confirmed by other ballistics authorities. These databases discard data from suicides, from execution-style homicides (where the little guns truly shine), and so on.

These conclusions are pretty broad. Basically, the best success rates in "winning" armed confrontations with handguns occur when the shooter is using a service-caliber handgun and good quality jacketed hollowpoint ammunition. But there isn't much to choose between the service calibers, as they all perform pretty much the same over large numbers of shootings. What appears to be more important than caliber is the shooter's ability to put his bullets into critical body parts of his opponent, which means knowing how to shoot the gun you've got well is more important than deciding what your next handgun is going to be.

There was a video of a guy shooting 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 auto into gelatin. They all penetrated about the same. The bigger bullets have more stopping power of course.

This shows the problem with gun writers trying to come up with meaningful data. They might know guns but they don't know statistical methods so their data is often faulty and usually meaningless.

I think the politically correct term is " vertically impaired "

Shrapnel, that midget comment was funny. I don't care who you are.
I thought the term was "little people".

That's exactly what I concluded about 10 years ago when selecting a handgun for CCW. As near as I could tell, using JHP bullets that would pass the FBI's penetration test, there was no difference between 9mm, .40, or .45 ACP. 9mm is easier to hit with, makes the gun lighter to carry, and you get more rounds.

The study cited by the OP did not take into account the type of bullet.

would like to see some stats on a 22 mag ,anyone have any against the rest of these pistol cartridges ?

Looking at just the table provided in the original post is somewhat misleading. I also think there are some problems with the methodology but the broad conclusions are not that different from what other people have found. Namely, that handguns are not that effective in stopping violent attacks compared to rifles and shotguns, the effectiveness of standard duty calibers is relatively similar and mouse guns are best avoided.

Here's part of what Ellifritz says in the study:

"Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things..."

"In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this."

I've know Evan Marshall for several years. His son is one of my best friends. He told me years ago that there is more difference in what bullet you choose than the caliber. A good quality expanding bullet outperforms fmj/ball type ammo.

In the early 2000s I carried a glock 19 with 124g +p gold dot GPS. I got death threats every week back then because of my line of work. Many friends and armchair experts said I was undergunned and needed a 40 or 45. Evan invited me to shotshow with him in in 2004 and we spent a lot of time in the Corbon booth talking with other people in the industry about stopping power. They all told me to stick with the 9mm and my 124 +p gold dots.

I don't carry as much anymore and often find myself just using my scadnium snubby s&w revolvers in 22 mag or 357. But when I feel more need to carry its usually a glock 19 or an xd, xdm, or other 9mm with the same 124 gold dot I've ran for years. Unless I'm in the hills than its usually 10mm or 44.

Bb

I think the psychological effect of being shot is under valued. If someone feels a solid thump on their chest and hears the sound of gun fire I don't think
they are going to immediately know if they were just shot with a 22, a 38 or a 45. And most of us are smart enough not to say, "you sissy, it was just a 22".

I have both of the Marshall & Sanow books "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" and have read them both cover to cover. Good reads for us analytical types though I've also read that they have been accused of taking some creative license with the facts in some of the chapters. I did think that the goat shooting chapter was informative and would have removed the psychological aspect of when a handgun bullet actually stopped someone. The 180# goats were hooked up to an electroencephalograph to measure when they were actually killed by handgun bullets in a controlled environment. They do analyze a lot of different aspects of handgun and long guns relating to wound potential in multiple chapters.

These days, I think one would have to break it down into bullet type. The popularity of small pocket .380's has resulted in a lot of attention towards producing high performance bullets that produce optimum results in that chambering.

It's hard to put much credibility in numbers that show that a 9mm performs lower than a .380 since a 9mm is the same diameter bullet, only heavier (typically) and traveling significantly faster.

I'm a big fan of the LCP and it's what goes with me when I carry. But if I was at home and needed to grab up a pistol, it would be my 9mm.

Actually, it would be my AR,...but that's for a different discussion.

One of the reasons the main self defense calibers (9mm, .40 & .45) have similar effectiveness now is that bullet design has improved dramatically in the last 20 years. This has made 9mm nearly as effective as .40 or .45 if the best bullets are used. I think that in .40 and .45 nearly any decent HP will work well but in 9mm (and certainly anything smaller) it's important to use the best bullets, of which there are a number of great choices.

if i was a toter, and it happened to be a .22 rf, or even .22 rf mag i was carrying,

i'd attempt to remember the decision rule of 3 shots, quickly in the torso.

maybe i'd be wrong, but what if i missed the head?

a .22 kills far above it's paygrade.

to implement a shooting is key.

Handgun stopping power, the eternal question. Marshall and Sanow's works were pretty much disregarded many years ago. Read Doc Rockets post above and look up Doc GKR.

If you visualize a line 4" wide tube running down the center of the opponent from the eyes to the bottom of the sternum shoot them there, continue shooting until the threat is stopped. If you always carry a gun that you can shoot to this standard and practice enough to do so quickly on demand you will then have maximized your ability to defend w/ a handgun.

That of course is my personal working model, YMMV.


mike r

The average scenario where a 22 is used in a shooting vs when a 9mm is used might have more to do with it than anything.

You are right, the .22 kills far above it's paygrade. It is a vicious lethal little round. I worked several hundred gsw when I was a paramedic and I saw about 14 people killed with a single .22 hit to the chest or belly. I saw people killed with just about everything, including, saw one killed with a single shot by the anemic little .25 auto. What I learned is, you don't want to get shot with anything, especially a torso hit.


And we have the story of SC Trooper Mark Coates. Now, he shot the bad guy 5 times with a .357 and the guy lived! That is one in a million.
The bad guy had one of those .22 mag mini revolvers. He got one lucky shot to the armpit, missed the vest.
Trooper Coates ran about 5 steps to the front of his patrol car and he dropped.



MARK HUNTER COATES
Corporal Mark Coates was shot and killed after stopping a car for weaving in traffic on I-95 near the Georgia border.

During the traffic stop the subject began to struggle with Corporal Coates and they both fell to the ground. The man fired a .22 caliber handgun into Corporal Coates' chest, but the round was stopped by his vest.

Corporal Coates was able to force the man off of him and return fire, striking the him five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover and to radio for backup, the man fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart.

The man survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prison.

Corporal Coates was a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and had served with the South Carolina Highway patrol for five years. He was survived by his wife, two sons, two step-daughters, parents, sister and brother.

good points, all.

to not to be shot is the best outcome of all.

lot's of shootings on saturday nights back in the day in the macon, ga. general area.

not a lot of folks succumbed because of the randomness of the location of the small caliber hits.

That would be part of the methodology problem. Unless there's a reasonable amount of consistency between the situations in which each caliber is used any it's hard to draw accurate conclusions. But these aren't controlled experiments. It's just an attempt trying to draw conclusions from the available data on shootings. And there's lots of variation in that data. I'm not saying the studies are worthless, just that they have to be taken for what they are.

Gus, you are talking about Macon Georgia. I was a medic over in Baldwin County, took lots of transfers to the Medical Center. Talk about gsw, we hauled ass over there one afternoon with a deer hunter who got a 7 mag to the thigh bone, Good God! You could have stuffed a loaf of bread into that exit wound. 72 year old guy who had jumped in to Normandy with the 101st, and never had been shot. Got shot by his hunting partner, a 22 year old college boy. Guy had to get his leg amputated even the Medical Center couldn't help much.

And we had a doc who worked part-time in our ER, Dr. Williams. He worked full time at the Medical Center in Macon. He was working at the Medical Center the night Duane Allman came in.
He was trying to treat the guy and, as Dr. Williams told me, "Duane Allman was a real a**hole."
Allman didn't want to be treated and he walked out AMA and when Dr. Williams saw him again, three hours later, the Rock Star was dead.

allus thought Macon was just a very large small town.

otis redding did his growing up there.

but small caliber guns don't kill like large caliber guns.

at least i feel pretty certain that's the case.

random shots with small caliber guns provide work for the medical profession.

large caliber guns tend to assist in business support for the morticians.

the sage's at the fire will never accept that all normally used hand gun cartridges have about the same lethality and stopping power. There is maybe 15% difference between a 380 and a 44 magnum. Of course several regulars on here will get the vapors and say it just isnt so, they cannot and will not believe that the 45ACP is about as effective as the 380. OTOH all handgun wounds from common calibers are very similar (given 500SW is different). The fire is just not ready to accept that information.

and if one of these wonder bullets fails to perform like its supposed to , a 40 or 45 will still give you an edge


there could also be a time when you cant get wonder bullets and you have to carry any ol thing you can get ahold of.....which could be FMJ

I'll buy what you're saying, with the caveat that any decent .45 is likely to be easier to shoot well than most any .380

Things I know for sure about punching holes in things

Any caliber is better than no caliber.
The bigger the hole the larger the effect.
Headshots are for ninja's.
If it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting twice.

I've killed enough stuff that I reserve .22's for small game. I've seen stuff survive that shouldn't have, and things that were dead on the spot shouldn't have been. You never know till it's over.

Y'all can laugh all you want but of all my pistols, I choose my Walther PPQ M2 in 22lr. I'm good with it and comfy. No matter what anyone carries, I think those are the important factors. If someone got shot in the face and chest with a clipfull of 22 rounds, I doubt they'll be getting up for more. Not by any means an expert, just my 2 cents.

go out and shoot a big ol jackrabbit with a .22lr and see what it does.
then shoot another jackrabbit with a .45acp and see what it does.

Archduke Franz and his wifey started the Great War by checking out after a single round each, courtesy of Gavrilo.

.380 ACP from about five feet.





P

Probably HST rounds.

When I was a paramedic we were hospital based. 92 percent of EMS are fire dept based, but our barracks was out in the parking lot of the county hospital.
So that, if another ambulance brought in a gsw, of course I heard them describe it on the medic radio, and I went right over to the ER to check it out and to work, I might start an IV, cut off patients clothes, put pt on monitor etc.

Also lots of gsw brought in by car and the nurses would call us on the phone, and I would go over to assist.
Furthermore, the ER was, as Tom Cruise said of the bar in Top Gun that had all the sexy gals in it, "This is a target rich environment."
The ER was also a "target rich environment." I spent a lot of time over there, I would help an RN, or stacked xray tech, any way I could.

So I got to work many more gsw than I would have had I been a fire dept medic.
Also, I got to check out the xrays. Hell doc would be looking at an xray of pneumonia, I couldn't tell s***, looked like cumulus clouds to me.
But, a bullet, it shows up on xray very well. A bullet jumps out at you like it has a light on it. Just fascinating to see the entrance wound, then see the xray of where the bullet winds up.

beansnbacon33 you are on to something because in my extensive study of gsw, a single .22 lr to the torso, fifty percent chance of death. Two hits from the little .22 to the torso [chest or belly, they are equally lethal] about a 90 percent chance of death.

Do as I did the other day, put a .38 Special cartridge on the coffee table next to a .22, in fact, I had a .22 mag hollow point.
The .38 just looks like a bad ass. And the .22 looks like a joke.

The .22 is no joke if you are looking down the barrel.

I will tell y'all another thing about the little .22lr. Surgeons hate it because it won't exit. Where you shoot somebody with an honest .44 mag, that bullet travels in a straight path and exits. Shoot someone with a .22, the damn bullet enters the chest, but it doesn't exit, it bounces off a rib, goes through the chest and damages the lung some more, then bounces off another rib.

In some ways the little .22 is more lethal because it is less powerful. It is a nasty lethal round.

Based on what I have read about shootings with the .22lr they are quite lethal. However, it often takes several days before the person dies. So the .22lr kills people eventually but is not a very effective stopper in the short term. In a self defense situation you need to stop the attacker ASAP and the .22lr is not very effective for that in comparison to larger cartridges.

Between 35 and 20 years ago I was collecting different breeds of layer hens. Some of them got broody and had chicks.

When the chicks got to be ~ 6 months old, the young roosters showed their colors, and I would shoot them

Every year I set up a picnic bench shooting bench with a scoped Ruger 10/22 and Federal Eagle hollow point 22LR ammo.
I have noticed [with dozens of examples] that 6 month old roosters can take 3 American Eagle long rifle hollow points to the body and not develop a limp.
I also noticed that any hits to the head or neck, and the rooster goes down.

If a one pound rooster does not flinch or limp from (3) 22LR HP body shots, 22LR HP would not be a good man stopper with body shots.

.

I read a study that pointed out this very thing. The study said that the biggest issue with being shot with a 22 is that it may ricochet around inside or your body damaging multiple organs, also since they are small and do not leave a lot "wound trail" the projectile itself can be difficult to find.
That was the issue that almost killed Presiden Reagan, he was bleeding out and they could not find the projectile - Yep, he was shot with a 22.

drover

That's what John Hinckley used on Ronald Reagan. Reagan walked into the hospital on his own legs and collapsed in the lobby. He had zero blood pressure. The bullet was a solid and it hit a lung. If it had been a HP, Reagan would have died before he reached the hospital.

My experience is to use whatever gun I have on hand. Carry a gun anywhere you may need it or anywhere you do not need it. If you do not have a gun and need one it is too late.

Something I'd like to know is never covered in these incapacitation graphs - not lethality graphs - and that's the relationship between shooter and shootee.

With the 9mm - I guess a lot of those are going to be cops shooting and bad guys getting shot. A bad guy going after a cop is going to be somewhat motivated I guess.

With the .22lr - who's that? Not a cop? Maybe a woman shooting her husband or boyfriend. "What the f***, b****, you shot me!" Less motivated to continue? More easily incapacitated?

I like to know who's shooting and who they're shooting and why.

I believe your assessment by experience 100%, but we're talking stopping power. a lot of times in self defense situations drugs are involved and a 22lr ain't going to stop most of them when they're cracked out.

I'm sticking with the .45 as my goal is to stop them on the spot not die in your care.

Who makes the most reliable, most concealable .22 semiauto?

Regarding Reagan, IIRC the bullet was a ricochet that struck him under the arm. Pretty nasty.




P

I guy I hunt with just got that 30 shot 22mag pistol light and smaller than i would have though going to see how reliable it is before I bite

It does not, believe me, take 3 days to die from a .22 shot. Some of y'all boys are delusional.

I never saw somebody get shot but my ambulance usually got there five minutes after the shooting, maybe 10 minutes. We could still smell the gunsmoke. I saw many cases where a guy took two shots from the little .22 and he was Dead Right There, ten minutes after the shooting, when I got there.

So I don't know if the .22 dropped 'em in their tracks but they were down, and out, five or ten minutes later.

It is funny, a rooster can take three hits to the torso and not even develop a limp. But a human takes two hits to the torso and he is dead.
I don't even know what to say about the rooster story. That is bizarre. I guess a 3 pound chicken is tougher than a person.

Y'all boys go ahead and believe what you want to. Have any of y'all ever been in a room with a person who has just been shot? Have y'all ever put your hands on a person who just got shot, and gotten their blood on you all the way up to your elbows?

I got two of the pmr-30 22 mag pistols. No problems after 2 years and hundreds of rounds on both.

this might add some info

https://wwhttps://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5kYEUCWVyw.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Use what you've got, get the most from it, and don't give up.

For the most vulnerable people in your life, this is from the "Promise him anything, but give him a Gold Dot" department:



This is what the same round will do from a few feet away:



Then there's the lowly .380 (used zoom too much, sorry):



Apologies to the people who have seen these on the Handgun Forum already.

Ray that study is exactly correct. There are those who still think the manly 45acp is much much more than the piss ant 380.

there is a little more to that story. The guy that was stopped was a grossly overweight fat guy, and the bullets didn't get through the fat. As to the .22, it hit and artery and he bled out. That was a topic of discussion way back when in my law enforcement classes.

you sure that wasn't a .32acp?

you sure that wasn't a .32acp?

woops, looked it up, it was a .380

Don't put your fate in charted numbers.

mtnsnake good to now I am thinking hard about one

How often does someone get shot just once with a 9mm?

You will also notice how the .357 Magnum's missing from that list, which IMO show's the authors bias.

If you only get to shoot someone once with a handgun, and they absolutely positively must be stopped, .357 Magnums were it's at....unless you include variations of the AR-15 with a brace.

Haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone pointed out that "a hit with a .45 ACP, even in a finger, will knock a man down"?

Might have to get myself one of those for a "gym gun".

I didn't learn a thing from this guys scientific research.

Just another magazine writer trying to make a paycheck.

A better question would be, regardless of the number of shot, what percentage are left standing after 10 seconds of the shooting starting.

If I open up on you with either my 9mm, or .45 ACP, chances are, I'm not hitting you only once.

Gotta wonder why all the pigs I've shot with CB shorts fall over dead with one shot. Oh wait, it's a rifle....sorry wrong thread. 🙄

My wife's cousin's husband is a surgeon.
He says if someone get shot and comes into the emergency room, and the bullet penetrated the diaphragm, the patient will live if he is on duty and die if he is not.

I was not going to argue with him.
The guy does not own a gun, and sees a VZ24 bayonet lug and front sight on my workbench and asks me if that is a Mauser.

Gotta love the arrogance of a surgeon.

I want that kind of attitude on my side.



P

better question would be who makes the most reliable 22 ammo now a days

FYI, every fraction of an inch of extra barrel increases the velocity. That includes the extra 1/8" of the "standard" model with the half moon front sight. But, the ball detent that holds the cylinder pin in place on the standard model is not as robust as the system that holds it in place on the Pug and similar models. It makes a difference if you shoot it a lot.

That's the A&E term, for the rest of us it's "little fkr's"

Thanks Cheyenne,

I'll keep that in mind.

If I were at sneezing distance, shooting most things behind the ear doesn't require much integrity or force.

Ass to fronting four legged stuff or taking out running gear requires a little more than a 22 lr; a needle in the brain isn't the same as a needle to a ham hock, so this whole "stopping power" argument requires a bit of common sense, if that exists anymore.

After reading the entire thread, I am certain I don't want to be shot, ever, even with a 22LR.

I read or heard recently, that many wounded by gunshots are not "stopped" by the shots, but the the thought of dying and simply quit what they are doing to get shot in the first place.

Something to consider on the topic if I may. The OP presented data in context of head/torso incapacitation or not and I'm fairly convinced it is a simplistic view. Conventional wisdom says the head/torso are primary points of vulnerability, and I won't argue that for the most part. I suggest however the objective is to stop the altercation first and foremost, and I pose a question. What does it take to stop the party? Well, death will do it, but so will a lot of other things. One is absolute agony which may or may not lead to death of the perp. One example is a lower region gut shot, or perhaps a bit lower and to the side, and poking a hole in the femoral artery. How about a kneecap shot? Ball joint in the shoulder or the elbow joint? Any of those will turn the cards in your favor and it really doesn't matter what one is shooting. What matters is what you can do when that moment arrives. If you're face down in a gutter after getting jumped by some gang bangers and your field of vision is mostly filled with tennis shoes and ankles, what you gonna do Willis?

One of the things that many folks overlook in such discussions is what the actual scenario is and perhaps have a vision of an OK Corral contest. It can happen like that, but odds are probably not. Might be more likely you will be going to your car at night; opening the door to a stranger; be present during a holdup.....you never know until you're there and facing the devil.

Another suggestion? Carry a gun you're familiar with and more importantly, one you are competent with. What it is doesn't matter nearly so much as how it's used. Case in point was illustrated by a flight school buddy who go shot down in Nam, woke up face down in the dirt with his right hand holding the butt of his S&W issue .38 and three dinks laffin' and poking him in the ass with a bayonet. He rolled and killed them with three shots and they never got off the first round in response.

Try facing someone armed with a 9mm Glock and see how you do with your 22lr. They will take you down with 1 shot and you will only get one shot at them.

For those who want to use the .22, try to get your hands on Finn Aagards .22 tests a few years back...American Rifleman and Finn Aagard selected works. Cut to the chase...PMC Zappers doubled the penetration of anything else in wet phone books at 15 ft. As a further curiosity he used a .380 with 90 gr Black Hills in the same medium...penetration? 5.5 inches compared to 10 inches for the PMC's. Test gun was a MkII Ruger, bbl length unknown.

You're right. I'd forgotten that. Also, I was wrong about the solid bullets. This is from wikipedia:

It had been loaded with six "Devastator" brand cartridges, which contained small aluminum and lead azide explosive charges designed to explode on contact; the bullet that hit Brady was the only one that exploded. On April 2, after learning that the others could explode at any time, volunteer doctors wearing bulletproof vests removed the bullet from Delahanty's neck.

The author discusses that point in the article. His view is that the sample included many 9mm shootings that resulted in more than one hit driving down the "one hit stop" percentage.

Here is a link to the article.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power

How many shootings are double taps that don't give the person enough time to fall before the 2d one hits?

Now, now, don't be throwing variables into the pot.

"Try facing someone armed with a 9mm Glock and see how you do with your 22lr. They will take you down with 1 shot and you will only get one shot at them."

Depends on who's the best shot and who shoots first. A little .22 bullet between the eyes will turn the biggest baddest man walking the earth into a pile of dead meat.

Back when I lived in Nevada, my hunting buddy and I made life a living hell on the jackrabbit population. Shot the with everything from .22LR to .458 Win. mag. most of the time though we used handguns, mainly in .22 LR. We got to where one shot kills were fairly common. One day we were out and about and the gun I had with me was an old 1917 S&W army issue I'd gotten for a fair price. The only ammo I had was hardball so when Mr. Rabbit presented a decent shot I took it. The rabbit flinched and my buddy's brother told me I'd missed. I said I didn't and shot that rabbit again. Once more it flinched at the shot, then walked off. We followed it for about 30 or so feet when it just laid down on its side and kicked a few times. On inspection there were two holes right behind the shoulder just where I'd said I aimed. Kind of made me wonder about the effectiveness of the .45ACP and hardball at least on jackrabbits. Handloads with a 200 gr. semiwadcutter were a lot more effective on those bunnies.
Paul B.

LOL, I've shot a couple rabbits with the 230gr FMJ flat points from my 45 ACP out in Wifes bean patches in the garden, they thought as long as they sat still I couldn't see them, point being, the bullets kicked up a nice pile of dirt behind the rabbits, they hopped or ran a short distance and died, not much indication of a hit, 22LR HP's will definitely show a hit better, they also kill them much faster.

Boys, as a trauma doc, I assure you that “finding the bullet” is a low priority in GSW surgery. The bullet is inert. Hell, I’ve had a 22 bullet sitting in my chest for nearly 40 years and I still ain’t dead. You can leave it in most of the time. The real problem is stopping the bleeding, and it was persistent bleeding from small vessels that nearly killed Reagan.

Why was Duane in there initially? never heard he paid a visit to the ER hours before his accident.

Macon consolidated with the county, it has gotten bad again. I believe we tied our record of homicides last year, low 40s. Still a lot of shootings though but folks are surviving. Our elected officials are a joke.

it would be good if y'all could bring back Machine-Gun Ronnie for mayor. but i'm afraid all those days are over and gone.