Any of you Texass White Supremacist dirt-bags watching the program about Sam Houston - "The Cherokee lover" - on PBS tonight?

“Now the Mexicans are no better than the Indians , and I see no reason why we should not go on the same course and take their land.

Sam Houston

Oh, Karly.

Did we forget to compliment your new hair cut darling?

mesicans are half injun

Schit...more'n that.

Y’all are gonna make him cry, and he’ll have to fill out one of those hurt feelings reports.

There is this kid at the fire dept here. Damn good kid....was a Marine at one time.


We give him a holy ration of schit all the time....he is a democrat.



One day his wife caught wind of all the schit we pitched his way.


She decided she wanted to do something about it........and decided to confront the chief.


Ole democrat ex Marine put the kibosh on that.


He knew it would only get worse.....or as he put it....the duck that thrashes around gets fragged first!

Karl. My fine man. Why not leave TX if its so damn bad?

Hahaha!


I get a kick out of you asking that question.


How in the hell is Alaska????


Skeeters yet?

LOL, a few here and there. Damn flies bothered me today until I got the badger bug balm out.

So far great. Greater than I thought. Really good actually.

Almost thinking I'm getting the hang of driving the jet boats, never thought it was so complicated. Took 5 training sessions until today when I had what I call a no mistake day. I'm not happy with myself. Boss says I'm the fastest learner he has ever had. I'm sorry he has had to deal with worse then.

Hope all is well in your world.

Have not had time to take the EMT nationals test yet, bastids wouldn't authorize me until about the time we left... and I was basically top in the class so I just hope whenever I get time, I remember enough to pass. Have applied to fire/ems here, but its all paid which I don't like... will see, I may not be able to offer enough. But they were at least open to having me around during the summers, my old dept would have said no way in hell would we take someone thats passed all their fire Classes, some haz mat, EMT courses, all extrication, some ropes etc. unless you can give us your first born and all remaining hours on earth...

Ha! Very happy for you.


I should have gotten my nationals.


Probably too late now.


Montana is on the verge of not recognizing the nationals any way.....


Good luck you ole Alaska Sourdough!

Sumbitch that cracks me up!

He's no sourdough.. have to survive a winter or two be called a sourdough..

You don't want to get paid working ems?

Aw, heck. If'n he can get through a Texas summer he can no doubt get through an Alaskan winter.

You ever been to delta jct in the winter?

My goodness, you're dense.

Funny - if one Googles that supposed quote - absolutely no reference to is is found, except herein, by you... What obscure self-serving white supremacist doctrine did you wrest that out of, Professor? I would like to research the quote for myself to discover the actual context of it - if, it is, in fact, true.

Also, nice job on your clandestine efforts to find out who I am - too bad you're coming up short, Professor. "Karl" isn't my real name - it is a nom de guerre (a "war name") I developed for use on the internet circa 1997+/- based on a character in a Marathon Candy Bar television advertisement. A few other, wiser, folks here have been able to figure that out, or have better recollection of past television advertisements. I also used the name for Cowboy Action Shooting in the early 2000's.

Lastly - the 3-part program about Houston on PBS was exceedingly interesting. Too bad Texas has not turned out to be Houston's vision of it. Funny how "Texans" turned on Houston and threw their big-hats in with the chattel-owners when Houston stood against the Kansas-Nebraska act...

At least one of the Texas settlers had some human decency - but I suspect you are more a supporter of Mirabeau B. Lamar and his seething White Supremacist philosophies, which brings up a great idea. I will mention it to the kids at UT and see if I can stir them to call for the re-naming of Lamar Boulevard, just for the fun of it!

Have a nice day, Professor.

After joining the fire in 2008 and not posting anything for a decade, why did you decide to start trolling it this year? Did you retire or something?

Maybe he just got out of jail.

Its more likely that one of the resident liberal trolls has hacked a dormant account to use as a sock puppet.

Maybe he was in an abusive relationship with a partner who would not allow him internet privileges. The American Progress website states that one in four same sex couples experience some form of abuse such as "physical, emotional, or psychological mistreatment".

When I read that Randal Weems past away I Googled his name and saw a post here on the CF about him, then I just casually browsed around and saw lots of White Supremacist posts about Kikes, Niqqs, and Wetbacks etc. and I figured that God sent me here to slap a few morons around - metaphorically...

Gee... just when I thought you weren't a complete idiot. Silly me.

On my iPhone just now, that quote was from at a “Take All Mexico” rally in NYC during the Mexican War. Houston was ever in favor of expansion, and also taking more of Mexico,on the eve of The War Between the States he did his damndest to drum up another war with Mexico, thinking that would forestall secession. So the quote is entirely in character, PBS notwithstanding.

The promblem is QK ya take a simplistic view of history and the people in it.

Here’s as good take on Houston as I’ve read anywhere’s .......

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/sam-houston-warts-and-all/amp/

And I’m pretty sure no one here gives a rip who you “really are”.

We know exactly who he is.

A racist, low information, SJW Troll.

Nothing else.

So, fanning the flames of racism to avoid secession - I'll have to think about that awhile to see if I can give him a pass on that one, considering the times he lived in, and the people he had to deal with to achieve his goals. I will read the info on the link you provided - thank you!

Nevertheless, his predictions on the outcome of secession were entirely correct... A far better Texan than most any I have met, though I will admit I have, in fact, met a few good ones.

I suppose you will stop investigating me now, Professor?

Ahhh The Grand Cyclops of the 24-hr Campfire speaks!

Doesn't take much to best you...

But then you know that already.

Still waiting for you to come make your threat good of taking my 1911 away from me and knocking my teeth out with it.

You're a Daisy if ya do!

But we all know you won't. You don't have enough hair on your ass.

I apologize for assuming you were gay. That was overly presumptuous on my part. I probably got you mixed up with that Goosey feller because your posts sound a lot like his.

Anyway, I googled Randall Weems and I don't get any hits on links to the campfire.......racist or otherwise.....nothing. I even turned safe search off.

Bwahahahahahahahahah...

Bwahahahahahahahahah...

Go take your nap, grandpa KKK.

That is surprising - I just did a search of the CF and not even his username comes up????? He went by the name Cowboy Consulting - he lived in Olney - could be stubborn as a mule but he was a great, great person, and he went out more of a man than anyone I ever heard of - worried about his wife and his cats...

Lessee.... You said you are 61.

I'm quite a few years younger than you.

Ain't anything KKK about me either. Nothing.


You just like trying to belittle your betters. You're just in over you head with that though. Not smart enough. That's why everyone here is your better. Get it?

Then stop acting like a disgusting old racist moron and post something intelligent once a year...

No but I have been to my barn in the winter before.

He has not the wherewithall to make it without his govt job, and was sent here by his betters in an effort to try and get him to off himself.

Be nice to find out for sure.

Because the [bleep] doesn't live in texas would be my guess.

Bill Ayers lives in Chicago.

Florida?
Montana?

WTF knows......

Cheechako it is for a while for sure.

I liked doing volunteer fire/ems at home. Saw no need for pay. Plus pay leads to all kinds of other things, like why can't you "work" today etc.... OTOH when I'm not tied to my mother anymore in the future, full time EMS out of Delta would be a good thing. And thats why I need to do the nationals and possibly more with Alaska, as they don't recognize nationals past EMT B, and get set for the future. One step at a time though.

FWIW, I think you are right...

Once again we are going back to a time when we had no control, can't change the past. But some folks want their lives handed to them now due to something in the past, that has no link to current times whatsoever.

By the way spend more time on English, its passed, not past, when someone dies. Even a former person from Texas knows that much

What do you suppose were his goals? The Cherokees among whom he had lived, in common with other Indians, individually killed more Indians than the Whites ever did. (Google up Tah-Chee and his famous Bowie, the story is he had killed seventeen people with that knife, few if any of which seventeen people woulda been White folks). Houston was a lifelong proponent of taking more of Mexico by force and he was an unrepentant slave owner up until the day he died.



You might have delusions of grandeur or suffer from paranoia, or both. I have absolutely no interest in discovering who you are.

I seem to remember Sir Arthur J. L. Fremantle’s description of Houston very much in his dotage , after he met him on the train leaving Columbus Tx for Houston. This was Colonel Fremantle’s trip from Mexico which eventually led to his witness the Battle of Gettysburg. And an observer for her most Britannic majesty’s govt. I paraphrase a bit. But something like;

“The old man was bent on expounding on his past glories for the whole trip, the whole time, snuff juice trickled down both corners of his mouth.”

This occurred only a month and a half or so before Houston’s death.

I don't think a felon can travel without permission from the parole officer.

Probably a big Black dude named Leroy, who wouldn't allow Karl to use soap on a rope.

You guys DO realize Queef Karl is just another plant like Padder...don't you?

Anyone who was anyone traveling to Austin in those early days when the city was not much more than a frontier outpost juggling it’s status as the capital city with Houston, had to travel down the Wilbarger Trace from Bastrop, to Webber’s Prairie. And on to Austin. The trace runs right thru the old Roger’s grant here where I live. Many times Houston traveled this trail. Many times spending the night at the old roadhouse at "Webberville”. Sometimes attending the Masonic Lodge there (Colorado #96 AF & AM). When they were having their stated meeting.

Sometimes if the Colorado river was high and the snags were scarce, the steam sidewheeler "Colorado" could
Make it all the way to Austin from Bastrop. In those days there were still deep holes of water in the river. One of the best was the Starly hole. Big catfish there. It was in the vicinity of Wilbarger and Pope bends. It stayed fairly deep until the early 50’s. When the dams on the highland lakes (1930’s WPA projects). Really started to silt the river holes up.

Great History, kaywoodie! I travel through that exact area, often - aunt and uncle are in the heart of it!

Bwahahahahaha! Good one! Thanks for the chuckle!

Houston, I believe, made sincere treaties with the Cherokee, to own and retain their land, that Texans later reneged on. And, Houston and Andrew Jackson wanted Texas, and took it totally illegally, for the sake of growing cotton (do not conflate this to mean that I support the conduct of Santa Ana). So While I respect Houston for his treatment of Native Americans, and for his wisdom with respect to secession (which he was 100% correct about), Texas was founded on lies for the sake of the enrichment of the few, on the backs of slaves and the poor - same as it is today.

Yep bet queerkarl is a registered sex offender

Well, since you feel so fuggin' bad about how Texas got taken away from the Indians and Mexico, why don't you sell your property there and split the proceeds between Mexicans and Indians, and get your sorry ass out of our state?

Like I say, they shouda fought harder....

Why don't you go have a sex change and see if they can sew a dick and balls on you so you can grow the F up?

Quickie, you seem to be very unhappy with your existence.

Ya, which is why we are all living in such misery here today.

Well....just you Birdy....

#sowoke #resist

LOL

Jim I showed you how to calm her down............One more time.

Carly, your breasts are magnificent in that dress! Wow!

POS doesn’t live in TX. Queer little bastard would be shaking like a Chihuahua schitting a peach seed every time he stepped out his door if he did.

So how much in reparations do you want?

Don't dirty your diaper because of us Texans Karl.

He schitts his pants every time he sees a Texan.

Which is every time he opens 24 Hour Campfire.

maybe Walt has another puppet?

Sam was a smart man!!!

ROFL

Mr. Larsen hasn't schidt his pants as bad as he will...

There are those that now know who he is, and where he is.

And why he's there, and not back in Arizona where I'm quite sure he made people miserable there too.

Jorge, Sir,

You went from pretending to be a gentleman to a complete ass hole in less than a week! What gives, Jamonero?

I'm hoping Slow_Carl doesn't live anywhere near the Caprock! He'll have it f ucked up big time!!

I’m sure they ran his sorry ass out of there too.

Karl Larsen aye.

Now you're cookin' with gas.

Not for lack of trying but I could not find a single reference to “Take All Mexico” rally in NYC during the Mexican War. Could you be more specific? A book title or an internet link? I will read the Texas Monthly link in the interim.

Looking for it myself, it was related to me by a creditable source in the re-enacting community who has no axe to grind one way or another.

So, with respect, it's hearsay? Don't get mad and start threatening to doxx me now just because I am calling it for what it is...

Lets clear up the air so the fuggin girls on this forum can grow the fugg up. This isn't directed at you Birdwatcher, but I DID know someone was trying to doxx me but will not say how (I've been using computers since 1995) - I thought it was you. I apologize,

1. I do not live in an RV on my Aunt's property in Bastrop County. I stayed there 3-months when I first moved here - 5-years ago.
2. I cannot leave this chithole because I have cancer, and the doctors have me stuck here. I would leave here in 3-seconds if I could. Feel better now, scumbags?
3. I went into an orphanage when I was 8-years old until I was 14-years old, 8-miles from Ground Zero in New York City - you (not you personally Birdwatcher) pussies would cry and we would laugh at you. Take your best shot - you're nothing I haven't chit on a hundred times.
3. If anyone [rockinbbar] here thinks they are going to intimidate me or "shut me up" based in some stupid pathetic girl's internet game of intimidation by sharing my personal health and identity information over an internet forum that is one step below a cat-liter-box, and then threatens to come and visit me, they better guess again - I will say whatever the fugg I want, any fuggin time I want, and you can eat chit. This fuggin pathetic effeminate conduct on behalf of a "Proud Texan." A real man huh? I will admit that not everyone in Texas is like this moron, but there are a lot of them.
4. Ask Roger about the PM he and I shared this AM - Pussy.

OK back to Sam Houston - I will read the Texas Monthly link.

I bet Karly's husband joins soon and asks us to be nice.

I bet ole Karly gets so wound up here that she has him cut off

Fugg off dirtbag.

Sheesh! You kiss your husband with that mouth?

At least he explained nom de guerre for us!

We were all scratching our heads at his linguistic skills!!

Still can’t find a sarcasm emoji

Chronic Lier. Hopefully # 2 is true

No sense being a piece of chit unless you act it, homie...

Assuming number 2 is correct:
Is this truly what you want to be doing when the end finds you?

Oh, okay. So sad. How about making the ' Fire a better place by hurrying the fugg up and dying? (There, NOW I feel better...)

ETA: Hey, Queer Carl, wouldn't that be a hoot if YOUR hell WAS Texas? Maybe you're ALREADY dead... Bwahhahahaha!

BTW, I've only been to Texas once, San Antonio to be exact, but I thought it was a pretty nice place, fulla good people (but then YOU weren't there...)

Point conceded, with the observation that MOST history is hearsay in the details. The people I got this quote from are serious about their history, and there is little out of character for Houston in the quote.

Things to recall about Houston.....

1) He was always in service to his mentor; Andrew Jackson. Indians, especially Cherokees, still go to the Hermitage to pee on Jackson’s grave (or used to, I think they’re on their phones now all the time like everybody else).

2) Houston first gained acclaim for his heroics at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend during the Creek War where he served as a Lieutenant in Jackson’s Force. At Horseshoe Bend more than 800 Traditionalist Creek Indians, including women and children, were slaughtered.

3) Houston came to Texas to further his own political ends and to to becomes leader in whatever sort of state that resulted. His self-serving machinations to achieve this was in a large part responsible for why he was despised by so many in Texas.

4) While the Alamo siege was underway Houston made no attempt to come to its aid. Questionable that he could have done anyway, but he had just left Goliad and the 500 man Texian Army where he had deliberately sown dissention in the ranks and leadership in order to sabotage the prospects of his rivals.

When he was invested in command by the nascent Republic (after suddenly jumping sides from the stay-as-part-of-Mexico faction), rather than even try to help the Alamo (and potential rivals Bowie and Travis), Houston chose that moment to go to East Texas to firm up his personal alliance with the Texas Cherokees.

It is probably not coincidental that at that same time his mentor President Jackson had an American Army massed a along the Sabine in that same area. Houston would shortly thereafter attempt to draw the Mexican forces towards that army but be overruled by his men who instead marched towards the Mexican forces resulting in the improbable victory at San Jacinto.

Most of the men who were actually AT San Jacinto actively despised Houston the rest of their lives, calling him a liar who had assumed credit for the battle that they had actually won.

5) For the rest of his career Houston remained ever ready to precipitate bloodshed in Mexico towards the end of conquering more real estate. That weren’t for the benefit of his Cherokees.

I read the Texas Monthly link.

All points conceded! Some I knew of, others I did not. Some points I learned more about - a few were daintily glossed over in the PBS Special - I guess so that no one might start doxxing the producers...

Previously, I believed that Houston had been fairer to the Native Americans, I can see now that Houston only used Native Americans for his OWN ambitions.

Now, here is what lies at the bedrock of my comments herein, in general, even if I've stumbled on a few insignificant Historical facts, depending on how much weight one gives to any History, written by any man, being 'perfect." Anyone that tries hard enough can find some History to back up their own bias.

Again - not directed at you, personally.

A person can love Texas if they want, but this is NOT The United States of Texas, and "America" was NOT formed around Texas. I am for America First, NOT Texas first, and NOT any other God-damned State first. My 'ancestors' from South Carolina fought in the Revolution - that doesn't make me any more American than any other Genuine American, no matter what color they are or who they vote for, nor does it give me some God-given right to decide what anyone can say on a God-damned internet forum.

Texas, like any other God-damned State in this country, has just as many flaws as any other God-damned State in this country - the least of which are Texans that can't stand having their biases challenged and that whine about a Wall and the welfare that low wage illegal aliens that wont talk back, or out of work Genuine Americans, collect, all the while hiring low wage illegal aliens that won't talk back, that they can talk down to, to work their businesses and/or to clean their yards, taking the wages of Genuine American workers, many of whom happen to be Texans, and putting in their OWN pocket. To me, THAT is more un-American than anyone voting for Obama to get what they can from America and put it in their OWN pocket. THIS is where this pissing match started and if that offends anyone, tough chit, buy a tampon.

Next - Texas was annexed to grab land on the pretext that Texans might make a deal with England to sell their cotton to England - at the time, cotton was like gold, and The Union would have been effectively surrounded by England. Whether Houston set this up as a ruse to gain Texas' annexation, thereby guaranteeing HIMSELF a place in Congress, and access to LAND, and WEALTH, for HIMSELF, is irrelevant - Jackson knew the threat was real and if England could pull it off, they would have done it.

Finally, anyone who is honest can easily see some of the arrogance and racism posted on CF. Its a different world - it isn't 1860 OR 1930 - you (not you personally) just made a democrat voter- FOR LIFE.

ALL men are created equal, and the First Amendment applies to everyone, whether anyone likes what someone says or not, and any Genuine American can vote any way he or she wants, even if it is political warfare, or even if it is to get what they can for themselves, like Sam Houston.

The ONLY thing that can change that is Americans that set an example with their own Character and Integrity, against it - not internet threats or any self-serving comic-book facade based on 1950's television shows.

Have a great day!

Poor Queer Karl.

I have the greatest sympathy for anyone that has cancer, but that's not an excuse for the type of behavior Karl as shown on here. I believe I'd be trying very hard to make sure the good Lord was impressed enough with me in order to make certain I ended up with Him, rather than picking arguments with people I didn't know.

Hopefully this is the last time I address you.

When are you going to start practicing what you preach, Karl?

You start threads with the most offensive verbiage you can conjure up. Then continue the hate and lies.

You have made some pretty good internet threats yourself. Lots of them.

Actually, I'm sorry you have cancer. After cancer took a wife from me, then killed her, I probably can understand your bitterness and hatred better than most.

In fact, I know for a fact that some of us have reached out to you, to offer you help, in any way we could. You wouldn't have it, and would rather continue down your path of hatred. That's fine. We tried.


There are many good people here at the Campfire. There are many good people in Texas. Texas, and it's people are not the source of your private hell. Nor is the Campfire.


The choice to continue down your path of hatred is yours alone. But, I think in your circumstances, I may choose to let more positive things, people, and actions into your life, and not dedicate yourself so completely to spreading hate, lies, and discontent.

I can't stop you from doing what you are going to do. But I shall not respond any longer to your hate, lies and contempt... That's a game you are going to have to play by yourself from now on. At least on my part.


I truly hope you find peace and contentment in your life. Your life can filled with friendship and caring, or it can be filled with hatred and hurting. Only YOU can fill that space.

Not everyone in this world is out to hurt you. No matter what you believe.

Barry

With an amazingly similar superiority complex.

You started issuing threats to have the Texas Rangers come and visit me after accusing me of being a member of some Republic of Texas nonsense that I know nothing about, then when I challenged your absurd accusations, and gave you a taste of your own medicine in return, you issued further threats to come and visit me and "make me chit my pants," as if you were going to intimidate me into not saying whatever the fugg I want. You and no one you know, scares me, or ever will. And since you want to broadcast what one of your surrogates communicated to me in a PM, you can ask him about other of my experiences and see if he thinks you or anyone else is going to intimidate me, about anything. I've dealt with much, much tougher people than you, and I would never accept any offer of friendship from anyone that would do what you've done trying to doxx me into submission.

If you or anyone else here doesn't like what I post, you can put me on ignore, or come back with your own arguments - none of which you have been able to get me to take personally, until you resorted to doxxing me and my personal health information and information about my aunt and uncle.

That is entirely on your shoulders, bro.

LMFAO.

Holy fugk.

How is anyone not crying from laughter at this?

More lies, Karl. More lies. There was a guy here that claimed to be a Republic of Texas member, not long ago, and to be frank, you sound like him. I didn't threaten you. I mentioned that the Texas Rangers investigate ROT members and their activities. I didn't threaten you at all. Just stated a fact.

I also never threatened to come visit you. I merely suggested you attend a gathering where you could be educated. Never once did I threaten to come to you. More lies. You did however threaten to take the 1911 in my avatar away and beat my teeth out with it... Want me to quote that?

Karl, t'wernt "me" that doxed you. You were doxed TO me. I know you can't compute that. But it's the truth, and I can prove it. If anyone doxed you, it was you. You put enough info out there, that someone that's better at that sort of thing than you or me could find everything about you in about 10 minutes. So, that is a lie as well.

Nobody is trying to block your hate speech here. Hate speech is free speech. But don't be so surprised when all the hate you spew offends people and riles them up. That's a by-product of YOUR own words.

Godspeed with whatever you want to say or do.

Sam Houston,,,,,,,

Birdy said,,,,,,

" Most of the men who were actually AT San Jacinto actively despised Houston the rest of their lives, calling him a liar who had assumed credit for the battle that they had actually won."

Very true Birdy!!! Especially three of the higher ranking officers from here in Bastrop. Edward Burleson, Robert Coleman, and Jesse Billingsley.

Burleson, another War of 1812 veteran, considered Houston a drunk and a coward and continued to rail against him up until the 1850’s! They all stated that Houston was finally forced to make the stand. ( I believe you and I agree that Houston was headed for the Louisiana border and your afore mentioned US Army concentrations in that area).

Coleman, was Houston’s aide-de-camp, and Billingsley a unit commander from the area. Coleman later mysteriously drowned in the Brazos river while bathing at Velasco right after the treaty was signed.

They all wrote that Houston had no confidence in the army. And was determined they would not fight. Burleson and Houston got into pretty heated arguments over this issue. Especially concerning the companies from the frontier settlements. . Even tho the these men ( militia) in all likelihood had more frontier combat experience than Houston, himself. Houston, later, went out of his way to sabotage any hopes of Burleson becoming President of the republic in 1844. These fellas had and maintained grudges.

Contracts AIDS.

Goes to Texas (which he hates) to live with his aunt (because he has no money) then (because he has no choice) gets treatment by the worst doctors in the country.

TFF.

but just the other day in a different granny was speaking of how much money he made in New York and he was independently wealthy now so how could this be??? Lmao

I don't know what that meskin' slang word means, but I see nothing ass-holish about writing what I believe is the truth regarding your views. It would be much easier if you and most of the lefties here, stop hiding and dodging who you are and where you are. I'm working on your trail and if I'm wrong, I'll say so.

Sorry you were abandoned, Karl. I'm sure that explains a lot of your current views.

What I find ironic, however, is that you support the party that promotes the kind of behavior that got you tossed aside like so much week-old fish.

Have all these conversations and convinced to vote D the rest of their lives. Gonna have to say that intelligence shows a lack of...

Ed Burleson in particular was the real deal, a man among men in his time and place I take stock in his opinion of folks.

One thing that impresses me about Burleson was the fact that he was smart enough to cultivate a friendship with the cannibal War Chief Placido of the Tonkawas, recognizing what a formidable band of warrior the Tonks actually were, even though always few in number. It was Ed Burleson who enlisted Placido and around thirty of his warriors to run the twenty five miles or so overnight to take part in the famous 1840 Battle of Plum Creek, where as it turns out they did most of the killing and all of the stock recovery. Burleson knew his man.

The Tonks are generally all but written out of the script in popular Texas history, which is a pity, in their day were highly regarded and/or feared by those who knew them. Quanah Parker for one in 1874 wanted to go against their inveterate enemies the Tonks on their reserve in Oklahoma rather than the buffalo hunters at Adobe Walls, and by that time there were only a relative handful of Tonks left. Even so, because they were consistently guiding Ranald MacKenzie's cavalry down on them Parker considered the Tonkawas a greater threat.

Thanks to Mike & Bob on the info on Houston’s / Burleson’s ongoing feud and hatred for each other. Puts it into a better perspective for me. Learn something good everyday here on the Camp🔥 from our many knowledgeable members.
I had read somewhere before that Quanah Parker and the Comanche’s hated the Tonks. Seems like I also read somewhere that the Comanches eliminated what was left of them quickly when they all reached the Reservations in OK Territory. Maybe one of you two have read something else about this?

Birdy and I made a trip a while back to the old Manor hill ( aka JJ Manor) cemetery in the environs of the highlands above Webber’s prairie. This was the actual locale of many of the early settlers homesteads and not Webberville down on the river.

We reflected on "Puss" Webber, Edwin Webber’s mulatto wife, loaning the local Tonkawas her washpot to use as a cookpot for a Comanche prisoner they had captured, tortured, and killed. (Then boiled for lunch).

Also we visited the Coleman massacre site where Col. Robert Coleman’s wife and eldest son were killed by the Comanches. The small creek there that crosses the highway is still known as Coleman’s branch on the maps.

Dang I’m jealous. Visiting historic sites with you two old farts would have been a blast! 🤠

The impression i get re: the Tonkawas is that they practiced a particularly dark form of spirituality hated and feared by other tribes. From the accounts we have theComanches’ reaction to them leans towards a sort of hysterical hatred, perhaps folks killing and eating your relatives can incite that sort of sentiment.

We tend to think that the Comanches had it all their own way on the Texas Plains, not so. From Gregg we get accounts of Pawnee war parties traveling on foot deep inside Comancheria with the intention of returning home on Comanche horses. Apparently the Tonkawas practiced the same MO.

The Tonkawas were always far outnumbered by the Comanches, yet their villages persisted within range of Comanche war parties for at least the 34 years between Plum Creek and the Red River War while remaining implacably hostile.

The famous Placido himself had two Comanche wives, both likely captured, so he was screwing some Comanches while eating others, and IIRC he survived to a reasonably old age.

Famous Ranger Captain RIP Ford enlisted the assistance 100 of the Brazos Reserve Tonkawas in his 1860 expedition against Buffalo Hump’s Comanches encamped in the Wichitas. Ford in his memoirs calls the Tonkawas superior men with a encyclopedic knowledge of the West. Point of interest it was a Tonkawa that shot the legendary Comanche Iron Jacket in his Spanish mail with a skillful shot with a .53cal Mississippi rifle.

100 men of combat age implies a total population of a 1,000or less in 1860. Fourteen years later MacKenzie employs 30 as scouts which we are given to understand was most of what was left. Though so few in number, they were still killing and eating Comanches.

The Indian Territory (Oklahoma) was an exceedingly rough place, and more’n a few Indians there besides Comanches had it in for the Tonkawas. It is my understanding that the few survivors intermarried among the Caddos.

Nevertheless the modern day Tonkawas apparentl still persist as a separate tribal entity up in Oklahoma.

http://www.tonkawatribe.com/

Mike, the Tonkawa’s must of been some bad SOB’s.
Any good books you can recommend on them?
I’m not too far from where the Brazos Reservations were located, as the crow flies.

Our Boy Scout Camp that we went to in the summertime was called CampTonkawa. It’s located close to a major creek which was a great source for finding arrowheads and also runs parallel kinda to the Texas Fort Trails

" Point of interest it was a Tonkawa that shot the legendary Comanche Iron Jacket in his Spanish mail with a skillful shot with a .53cal Mississippi rifle."

Kit Carson when asked what rifle the aspiring pioneer should obtain for a westward trek, his answer was the "Mississippi Rifle". (US Rifle, Model1841).

Was that a smooth bore Bob ?

No it was a rifle.

It was also refered to as the American Jäger rifle.

Saw a replica once but I couldn’t remember

Yeah many of the replica Mississippi’s from Italy are the Civil War variant rebored to .58 calibre. However Euroarms did make some .54’s

I read about an Osage war party traveling on foot to what is now Southwest OK in the Wichita Mointains ansnkilling every man woman and child in a Comanche village and putting their heads in several piles.

Yep. The Italian .58 cal version was the one I saw.

Someone from another forum gave you the information (not to mention that it was 5-years old and inaccurate), but it was YOU that endeavored to USE that information and distribute it to your surrogate(s) in some childish effort to intimidate me into "shutting up" because you lost a war of words in an internet forum pissing match.

Only a proud Conservative Texan could do something like that, which is something I've been witness to since moving to Texas, 5-years ago - something that has turned out to be the absolute worst blunder of my entire life, which brings me to a larger point.

Throughout my entire life, whenever I had to face hardship, whether I was 8-years old, or now, or have been witness to the hardship of others, it has always been people like you that endeavor to use a person's circumstance and/or misfortune to try and inflict more pain on them. I cannot recall one liberal ever doing anything like it - not even once. Rather, they have been the first to offer whatever compassion they could, and encourage those facing a difficulty, to ignore people like you and keep moving forward - which is why nothing you've done has worked for you.

You'd be better off taking your Godspeed and directing it toward yourself, because you need it more than I do. Now stop trying to make yourself look good on my shoulders.

So you come out of the woods swinging..

Insulting, condescending, nasty, posts and threads.

You offend everyone here.

Yet, I'm to blame not only for your lack of integrity, self respect, and self control, but now for your cancer and being stuck in Texas?

You blame "people like me" for everything.

My surrogates... LOL. You leave out the part about "my surrogates" contacting you and informing you that there are people here willing to help you. And one of those offering that help was ME. That help was offered despite your efforts of insulting and threats by you, once we learned of your situation.

When are you going to start being honest?

Go read some of your threads... Then go look in the mirror.


Yeah, I took offense to your insulting posts. Many did. Many more than you know. Free speech is a double edged sword, Karl.

You think you can come here and insult and threaten people down to their very roots, and have nobody kick back at you. But when someone does bitch slap you you, THEY are the one's that are in the wrong.

Got it.

Fine. Blame me for your being miserable. Blame me for your cancer. Blame me for whatever you want. It's what people like you do.

Had to look up the word "jamonero" after Queef Karl used it. It explains everything about him:

Urban Dictionary: jamonero
[Search domain www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jamonero] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jamonero
A perverted person that ogles over young, fresh meat, i.e. Young girls if he is straight or young to pubescent boys if he is gay. A jamonero is very open about being such and approaches his or her victims in a lecherous manner imposing sexual favors to be paid by cash, material items, etc.

I also noticed Mr. Queef states he moved to Texas about five years ago. Clearly a perfect example as to why Texas is in danger of becoming full blown democrat... You Texicans need to find this guy, a rall, some tar and feathers and give him a sendoff....

My favorite Osage story comes from the journal of Jean-Baptiste Benard de la Harpe. Who was sent to explore a big chunk of present day eastern and central Oklahoma in the early portion of the 18th century.

They came upon an Osage hunting party somewhere along the Canadian river. Thru interpretors they inquired of the Indians if the Canadian ever had more water in it that what was present. The Osage told him that what they presently saw was typical. That they had never seen much more water in it. Bet they’d like to see it now!!!!!

The Osage averaged about 6’5 in height with seven footers and women well over six feet not being uncommon.

It appears the cannibalism thing was a rumor?

Tonkawa

Back when I was young, probably in lower grade school, but I do not know exactly when, I stayed overnight with a friend. He showed me a headstone for a family that was killed by the Fox and Sac Indians. It was not on their land but across the fence, in some woods, about 50 yards from the property line. That was the first that I had ever heard of this tribe of Indians, and it stuck in my memory. If the woods have not been cleared, I might be able to find the headstone. The land that my friends family owned has been put into fish ponds, and I have not been there in years. miles

If your "offer" was genuine, you would never have shared the info with anyone, and you would have contacted me yourself via PM. Rather, it was your surrogate who convinced you not to go-public more than you did.

I would rather die from cancer than accept any charity from you.

Naah, it was directly observed by Noah Smithwick (who got along very well with Indians) when as Bob relates they borrowed his neighbor's kettle, also observed by Ranald MacKenzie more than thirty years later when they guided his column against the Comanches during the Red River War.

Ummm... No.

My friend never suggested anything of the sort about go-public. Nothing. I also assure you I never contacted anyone about your information at all. Any inquiries at all came to me. Not vice versa.

We did discuss extending a helping hand to you because of your circumstances though. We were both on board with that.

Despite you previously calling us every name in the book, and disparaging both of us.

That is the difference in people with decency, and those that believe that everyone is out to hurt them.

Given your behavior here in just a short time, I sure don't blame you for being skeptical. But it is what it is. The offer was genuine alright.

To quote Mr. Smithwick from his book. Evolution of a State. ( still in print).

"Having fleeced off the flesh of the dead Comanche, they borrowed a big wash kettle from Puss Webber, into which they put the Comanche meat, together with a lot of corn and potatoes - the most revolting mess my eyes ever rested on."

He goes on to describe how all present simply dipped it out with their hands and consumed it. Then performed a scalp dance followed with a mock battle dance.

Yep and in combat they would sprint out from concealment, grab the tail of an opponent's horse and flip the horse over, Fehrenbach has it that when going against the Osages the Comanches would tie their horse's tails up short to guard against this eventuality.

The degree of sheer athleticism common to Indian warfare is often overlooked. Back East in the 1700's Iroquois warriors were travelling 600 miles on foot to wage war against the Cherokee and the dreaded Chickasaw, and vice versa. Black Hawk, of the 1830's Sac and Fox War, as a young man traveled twice alone through the land of the enemy Pawnee in order to pick a fight with a grizzly in hand to hand combat.

Here in Texas by that time we presume displaced Eastern Indian Tribes were more or less subdued by nature, but we have a story of a party of Delawares out hunting on foot, running two whole days in pursuit of a party of mounted Comanches that had killed one of their number, surprising the Comanches in their camp, and taking their vengeance.

Up in North Dakota there's a Mandan Indian Village museum featuring a beautifully painted buffalo robe. The owner of that robe lay in in concealment for six days in close proximity to a Chippewa Indian village, finally early on the sixth morning he sprang out of concealment to kill and scalp a mother and teenage daughter within full view of the enemy village, and succeeded in making his escape. All this painted on the robe, along with hte time he killed a famous Cheyenne warrior in a pre-arranged duel.

I thought it sad that all that effort, hardihood and endurance was expended for the purpose of killing a mother and daughter.

I met one of those tall Osage gals up in Oklahoma years ago.

She was a fun gal, and could country dance up a storm.

She was a bit over 6' tall. Said she was the shortest in her family.

The Osage are beautiful, statuesque, proud people. Not like other NA's I had known before.

Of course, there is no scale in this painting. But even so, the artist did a fine job of giving a sense of the hulking size of this Osage warrior.

During Colonel Parilla’s punitive expedition against the Taovaya’s and other northern tribes from Presidio San Luis de las Amarillas in 1757, he witnessed a Comanche "cacique" on horseback, leave the earthen fortified Taovaya village, armed with a French trade fusil followed by 4 or 5 warriors on foot all armed with anFrench fusil as his loaders. He would fire and a running warrior would exchange a loaded fusil for his empty one. Parilla goes on the explainthat he never had an empry gun in his hand for very long.

The indians kicked Spanish butt and captured their small 1 pounder cannon on a galloper carraige. They ended up returning this gun to the Spanish in Natchitoches Louisiana during a treaty visit in 1780! This was way after the Spanish had been granted Luisiana from the Bourbon French thru the Treay of Paris 1763. The Indians said they were just tired of hauling it around everywhere.

Well as you can see, the source was WIKI, so there you are . You should go in and edit but I bet they'll not allow it.

I have never come across a good volume on the Tonks, even Gwynn in his well written but unevenly researched Empire of the Summer Moon opens the book by singling out the Tonkawas as “always losing”.

Re: the Mississippi rifle, in its original incarnation it was a .54 caliber, 33 inch round-ball rifle with the then-common 1:48 twist. Essentially a plains rifle or Hawken in military garb. Apparently there were quantities on hand in Texas. They were the primary arm of RIP Ford’s Texas Rangers in the 1850’s (the 1851 Colt Navy revolver has yet to flood the state) and were also issued to the Tonkawas prior to Ford’s 1860 venture against the Comanches.

Here’s a really good link on the Mississippi rifle, note how many went directly into civilian hands, it really oughtta be right up there among the pantheon of famous arms of the West, prob’ly a lot more Mississippis than Hawkens for example....

https://www.historynet.com/mississippi-rifle-became-classic-western-arm.htm

kaywoodie and Birdwatcher - great reading!

Here ya go, Noah Smithwick's autobiography, as referenced by Kaywoodie, is still available in its entirety online.... Smithwick lived with the Comanches, the Lipan Apaches use to hang out at his blacksmith/gunsmith shop, and once he rode for three weeks with a party of Cherokees after Comanche horse thieves

http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd.htm

Another great source is Texas Ranger Captain John Salmon Ford's collected memoirs, "RIP Ford's Texas". Much of it will seem familiar because McMurty borrowed liberally from Ford's career when he wrote "Lonesome Dove". Available used from $9 shipped on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-lis...UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr=

Both these guys were the real deal, but I gotta warn ya, reading either of these guys will shatter the stereotype of cold-blooded butchers of Indians settling Texas.

Tell ya what; please post your name, SSN#, DOB and mailing address on here and I'll send ya a copy

I’ve read both of those books Mike and highly recommend them.

Just ordered both, thanks guys.

Whatever you are smoking, is way too strong for you!

Reading empire of the summer moon now

Very interesting read

Empire Of The Summer Moon is a great read! I’m not sure however that it is very historically accurate though.

Well written, but in my view a repeat of Texan-centric popular history.

Where it does excel is illustrating the bloody feuds happening between White settlers and in going into the post-Frontier careers of both Quanah Parker and his political rival Isha-Tai, the guy who cooked up the "bulletproof" medicine prior to Adobe Walls.

IMHO a far better and more comprehensive take on the Comanches can be found in Pekka Hamalainen's "Comanche Empire"....

https://www.amazon.com/Comanche-Empire-Lamar-Western-History/dp/0300151179

I still have this to get read! A gift.



Full of maps and awesome first hand illustrations

About time to read the Smithwick book again

That’s cool !!!

I Thought he was padder

Not a very long journal but a damn well written read. From a timeperiod much misunderstood.

https://www.amazon.com/Journal-Indian-Trader-1790-1810-Southwestern/dp/1585440167

And cheap too! Neighbor made off with my copy! LOL. I highly recommend.

Poor Queer Karl.

poboy, i don't think its our place to disparage someone who is dealing with life changing things like cancer. I know when my mom fought it she always had a positive outlook till she died. some people don't and might be bitter, but its not our place to judge.

Roger,

True.
However, I wager Karla has been a bitter, miserable azzhole long before being diagnosed with cancer.

Maybe he ought to STFU then.

That's the double edged sword about free speech.

You can say whatever you want, but don't be surprised when people don't forget that HE was the one that stepped in here on the attack.

Having cancer is no excuse for being that way. It doesn't excuse bad behavior.

When I lost a wife to cancer, I don't remember her ever lashing out, making others miserable. And I sure don't remember her using it as an excuse to do whatever she wanted to do to belittle others, lie, and then cry foul.

i don't know, i just choose to ignore it, i've seen both sides and its pretty sad all the way around.

Barry there is a difference between arguing a point like you have and just calling someone a queer. That is my point.

It is sad.

Karl was extended a hand in friendship offering help. By those he had so vehemently offended. You can read his response above.



There are people that are long time members here with cancer, and other problems. Many have heart issues, or are crippled.

One good member I know here was seriously injured, and it very nearly killed him. It nearly cost him his livelihood, and his family legacy. He has been in treatment for about a year now at no small sacrifice to himself, his finances, and his family.

Yet, I don't see him going out of his way to cut other people down in a vain effort to make himself feel better.

Anyone in that situation may want to take stock of what they are sewing, because they will reap what they sew.

Point taken.

Thanks, Roger,

But I've dealt with way tougher problems than some lightweight calling me names.

You have my complete respect.

Here's a modern one.........

...drawn by James W. Abert.....


Any man bereft of a field guide or decent binocs, sweating on the back of a horse in the desert somewhere in the middle of friggin' nowhere, wearing the clothes he's been wearing for weeks, traversing hostile Indian Country while in the middle of a friggin' war, living on hardtack and dirty water.....

Any man who can do all that, and then see THIS bird and think...... "hey, I ain't seen one of them before"..... deserves much credit....

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Aberts_Towhee/id

You can keep your Geronimos and Wyatt Earps and such.

Lets all raise a glass to James William Abert, may his towhee never be placed on the endangered species list.

What gets me is the courage it must have took for ordinary people to venture out into country where guys like that were running loose, experts who had trained for combat since childhood, men who could perform prodigious feats of endurance and who could kill you in a heartbeat before you even knew they were there, or worse, could capture you and your whole family and subject you and them to horrific tortures before death.

There were reasons people hated and feared Indians, heck there were reasons Indians hated and feared Indians.

Well, you know regular white people were a lot tougher back then too.

Truthfully though, out on the plains I think people of any kind, including Indians, were scarce enough that you could convince yourself that you would probably never see any and you probably wouldn’t. To me, the really tough and crazy pioneers were those who went into the Ohio and Kentucky country in the middle 18th Century. The Indians there were thick and fierce. Those people absolutely knew that they were going to have to fight.

Here! Here!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_William_Abert

I will say up front.....you seem like a pretty good guy Roger...…..the exchanges that go on here are pretty funny.

but when people start digging up personal information about members......that is going to far...….fireball was doing that to deflave..

going after family members... like steelhead does......is really bad taste......people that do these kind of things are pussies.

my opinion...…..bob

"Any man who can do all that, and then see THIS bird and think...... "hey, I ain't seen one of them before"..... deserves much credit...."

Apparenty, Houston excelled a discovering full whiskey bottles.

Hey, just what I read!

🤣

All this reminds me of a quote from Andrew Jackson during the Creek and later campaign against the British.

Apparently many of the Kentucky militiamen were appearing without arms. Granted many private weapons were lost when a transport vessel captsized. Some speculation has it that many of these guys were expecting to be issued a nice new government rifle from the stores. Hence they left "Ol’ Betsy" back at the homestead.

Back to Jackson’s quote,,,, amazed at the absence of firearms he stated to a subordinate something like;

“I’ve never met a Kentuckian who didn’t have a rifle, jug of whiskey, and deck of cards, readily available!!"

This was also one of the many reasons that the specifications for the government contract rifles ( Model of 1792 and later) were to be stamped with a "US" to combat firearm theft.

Poor Queer Karl.
queer - odd, strange, unusual, peculiar, weird, uncommon, irregular, freakish,
hatesTtx. BBQ brisket.

kaywoodie,

What caliber 1895 Winchester do you have?

Where the heck do you shoot it around where you are?

“What caliber 1895 Winchester do you have?"

Which one??? 😁

.30 US Army, .30 Govt 1906, and .35 WCF.

I’m not a casual shooter per se. I really do not enjoy shooting just for the sake of shooting. I have family with places if I need to shoot. But on the occasion I have visited this place.

https://www.lonestargunrange.com

Convenient and not a bad place to shoot.

I know its not an 1895 Winchester, but I have a JM Marlin 1895 CB 45-70 GOVT that hasn't been shot in about 10-years. In Arizona I could just drive out in the desert and set up targets and shoot all day and not have to worry about accidentally getting shot by the guy next to me. I've witnessed a few horrible things at gun ranges and have grown gun shy about them. There is a range in AZ with Range Officers some call NAZI's - I always felt safer with them watching my back. Too many folks with guns today that got their gun handling training from a cartoon on TV.

The place I mentioned runs a tight ship. Least when I’ve been there they did.

-