I'm thinking of having JES rebore a R700 up to 9.3x62. The application would be Alaska, mebbe Newfoundland, Moose, bear etc.
I'm a bit hung up on the push feed though, which in ordinary circumstances I'd not worry much about.
However, cold icy conditions are virtually certain in these locations.
Question for the fire: Is a push feed more prone to failure that a CRF in icing conditions?
Thanks in advance!
No and if the superiority of a CRF wasn't a myth, you would see cemeteries all over Africa full of dead hunters with push feed failures...
I wouldn’t worry about the pushfeed, but I would worry about the enclosed trigger. After suffering numerous freeze ups (mostly on Kodiak or Montaque) I sold all my 700’s and went to mainly Savages and Winchester 70’s.
In the cold they were OK
In the wet they were OK
When it was cold, wet, and temps running 20-32 degrees they were not.
As long as you don't operate it upside you should be fine.
I wouldn’t worry about the pushfeed, but I would worry about the enclosed trigger. After suffering numerous freeze ups (mostly on Kodiak or Montaque) I sold all my 700’s and went to mainly Savages and Winchester 70’s.
In the cold they were OK
In the wet they were OK
When it was cold, wet, and temps running 20-32 degrees they were not.
This, exactly. M70s would be best. Can't say about Savage and their Accutrigger. The new Rugers would be good, too, with their open trigger design. Enclosed triggers in the wet and cold, not what I would want to bet my hunt on.
I wouldn’t worry about the pushfeed, but I would worry about the enclosed trigger. After suffering numerous freeze ups (mostly on Kodiak or Montaque) I sold all my 700’s and went to mainly Savages and Winchester 70’s.
In the cold they were OK
In the wet they were OK
When it was cold, wet, and temps running 20-32 degrees they were not.
This, exactly. M70s would be best. Can't say about Savage and their Accutrigger. The new Rugers would be good, too, with their open trigger design. Enclosed triggers in the wet and cold, not what I would want to bet my hunt on.
I had one experience where my M700 trigger felt very weird in cold icy conditions. It still worked, but there was clearly some freezing going on inside the trigger assembly which affected the trigger pull. I would agree that a traditional open trigger design like an original M70, current Ruger etc. would be preferable in those conditions. I think push feed is a non-issue.
I gets cold in Minnesota. It gets icy in Minnesota. Cold by our standards means it is cold enough that worrying about icing is non-existent. I hunt in freezing rain, snow, rain turning to real cold with a few 700s and have yet to see the first issue with any of mine nor with any of those with whom I hunt. No trigger issues, zero. No feed issues, Zero. Find something real to worry about.
PF no problem, carry a spare bolt handle.
Get a Ruger MKII or Hawkeye. Eliminates most of the guesswork right out of the gate.
Make sure the ejector spring is strong and that the ejector track is smooth. Nothing else to do but use and abuse it.
[quote=DakotaDeer]Get a Ruger MKII or Hawkeye. Eliminates most of the guesswork right out of the gate.
Except accuracy, it’s a Ruger.
Haven’t had a chance to try a triggertech yet in these conditions but I am curious how they will do. I sure to like them in every other respect.
PF no problem, carry a spare bolt handle.
We have a winner!
Mk II Rugers first appeared in 1989/1990, thereabouts. Basically they’ve had the same open trigger design since their introduction. The Hawkeye trigger had a few minor changes but was still of open design. I have probably owned 15 to 20 of these rifles and have never had one that wouldn’t shoot or at least be made to shoot satisfactorily. It would be at the top of my list if I was gonna buy a rifle to take to Alaska. Just me.
Village folk have done just fine with their push-feed Remingtons in sub-zero conditions..
Question for the fire: Is a push feed more prone to failure that a CRF in icing conditions?
Seems it would be the opposite.
I've been to some gun shops in Alaska.
Plenty of R700s around. The locals must buy them.
No and if the superiority of a CRF wasn't a myth, you would see cemeteries all over Africa full of dead hunters with push feed failures...
Well put!
We have had two guns freeze up on the same day.
One was a kimber 84l the other a 700.
It was rainy\wet snowing the day before then turned bitter cold over night.
84l guy frantically tried to warm his bolt after crawling in amongst a herd of elk.
I think maintenance was more of the issue than design.
I carry a little tube of de icer in my pack now.
M 70 push feed is the answer..........open trigger and the bolt is very easily disassembled
I wonder if Sakos have ever been tested in cold weather....
Certainly not in life or death situations, but I’ve hunted with a Remington 700 Classic in Nov. and Dec. here in PA and NY for the last 38 years with no issues. Lots of snow, sleet, freezing rain and freezing temps.
I buckle my seatbelt every time I get in a vehicle. Never needed it, but someday it might make a difference. I feel the same way about PF vs CRF. I have no doubt that CRF is going to keep working in conditions where PF will not. But so far I've never found myself in a position where it would matter. I still like having the odds in my favor with CRF though. And the harsher the hunting and weather conditions the greater the odds of either failing. I can find no downside to owning CRF over PF, so why not.
Just don't let your bolt get wet when it's freezing outside, I've had this happen exactly 1 time and I was a relative newb to hunting in Alaska, needless to say I learned the hard way but it was a lesson learned.
PF no problem, carry a spare bolt handle.
We have a winner!
Or M 70.
My 700’s have been good rifles. Never had issues especially not freezing bolts or triggers.
Just don't let your bolt get wet when it's freezing outside, I've had this happen exactly 1 time and I was a relative newb to hunting in Alaska, needless to say I learned the hard way but it was a lesson learned.
That and not cleaning it after falling in a snowbank or getting in or out of warm vehicles in zero weather.
PF will work fine. Keep the action clean and dry. Don’t use oil for that hunt. And keep blue tape over the muzzle.
My push feed elk rifle functions fine at 40 below.
Yep,
Is all common sense really lost ?
I have hunted with Rem 600 and 700s plenty of times in sub zero weather and in all kinds of precipitation. The gun went bang EVERY TIME it was supposed to and fed just fine. You have to keep the components clean and free of oil when it is really cold. Leave the gun in the truck overnight so to keep it at the outside temperature too. Nasty conditions require extra steps for all rifles. If you someone had a failure it was their fault, not the gun. BTW, never lost a bolt handle or met someone who has. I guarantee you there have been a few broken but they are few and far between, we just hear a lot about those few.
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
Its your life, so live it your way. But if I was in a tent for 10 days in the rain and cold, I wouldn't change my rifle, I would change my destination. At some point you have to decide where fun ends.
PF will work fine. Keep the action clean and dry. Don’t use oil for that hunt. And keep blue tape over the muzzle.
Good advice
I’ve had one freeze up on a rifle during a hunt, caused me to lose out on a lil 6 point whitetail, in MO.
Pink, no boom, cycle the action to get a fresh shell, pink, no boom
Once more w feeling. Same result
By now the deer is looking up at me in the tree stand, trying to get my .357 out just wasn’t gonna happen, at least not with a deer still standing there
Heard my dad shoot so I went to him to gut and drag out the lil spike he’d killed.
Had him try the rifle with same result.
Couple of hours later when things had warmed up ( it was colder than a well diggers azz that morning ) BOOM !
Too much oil around the firing pin made it sluggish enough to only slightly mark the primer.
keep blue tape over the muzzle.
Blue scares the animals. I find a taupe color to be more hunter friendly.
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
Its your life, so live it your way. But if I was in a tent for 10 days in the rain and cold, I wouldn't change my rifle, I would change my destination. At some point you have to decide where fun ends.
If you ever stayed in a Arctic Oven tent and had some of the best black tail hunting this country offers you would reconsider. Especially when your hunting companion is your son.
I buckle my seatbelt every time I get in a vehicle. Never needed it, but someday it might make a difference. I feel the same way about PF vs CRF. I have no doubt that CRF is going to keep working in conditions where PF will not. But so far I've never found myself in a position where it would matter. I still like having the odds in my favor with CRF though. And the harsher the hunting and weather conditions the greater the odds of either failing. I can find no downside to owning CRF over PF, so why not.
There's no downside to CRF except cost, and very little of that. However more rifles fail due to iced up triggers than iced up bolts. For a DG rifle, a simple trigger is a must.
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
If only you had cleaned the trigger thoroughly and used dry lube or lighter fluid...
Many, many years of hunting on Kodiak with 700s with many more using all manner of makes and models... only constant in the group was in A-Bort trigger linkage for corroding and seizing the trigger.
I buckle my seatbelt every time I get in a vehicle. Never needed it, but someday it might make a difference. I feel the same way about PF vs CRF. I have no doubt that CRF is going to keep working in conditions where PF will not. But so far I've never found myself in a position where it would matter. I still like having the odds in my favor with CRF though. And the harsher the hunting and weather conditions the greater the odds of either failing. I can find no downside to owning CRF over PF, so why not.
There's no downside to CRF except cost, and very little of that. However more rifles fail due to iced up triggers than iced up bolts. For a DG rifle, a simple trigger is a must.
Some years ago, during a cold snap I tested a bunch of different makes and models of barreled actions. Any of them including 70s could easily be made to freeze up. None were any different than the others after cleaning and lubing with lighter fluid. And all were difficult to freeze after proper cleaning and lubing.
I use 700s without concern far more often than most in very cold, wet, and nasty conditions. CRF advantages are mostly fantasy...
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
If only you had cleaned the trigger thoroughly and used dry lube or lighter fluid...
Many, many years of hunting on Kodiak with 700s with many more using all manner of makes and models... only constant in the group was in A-Bort trigger linkage for corroding and seizing the trigger.
Uh huh...
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
Its your life, so live it your way. But if I was in a tent for 10 days in the rain and cold, I wouldn't change my rifle, I would change my destination. At some point you have to decide where fun ends.
You must be a lot of fun at parties, too!
I buckle my seatbelt every time I get in a vehicle. Never needed it, but someday it might make a difference. I feel the same way about PF vs CRF. I have no doubt that CRF is going to keep working in conditions where PF will not. But so far I've never found myself in a position where it would matter. I still like having the odds in my favor with CRF though. And the harsher the hunting and weather conditions the greater the odds of either failing. I can find no downside to owning CRF over PF, so why not.
There's no downside to CRF except cost, and very little of that. However more rifles fail due to iced up triggers than iced up bolts. For a DG rifle, a simple trigger is a must.
Some years ago, during a cold snap I tested a bunch of different makes and models of barreled actions. Any of them including 70s could easily be made to freeze up. None were any different than the others after cleaning and lubing with lighter fluid. And all were difficult to freeze after proper cleaning and lubing.
I use 700s without concern far more often than most in very cold, wet, and nasty conditions. CRF advantages are mostly fantasy...
Why you hate model 70's? Does your disdain for them include the push feeds? I have 12-13 of them and is my preferred rifle. I admit I have 1 Remington 700 but it was giving to me..
I do not hate model 70s at all. I do not even mildly dislike 70s. The ONLY knock I have on them is there are far more options in building 700s.
If 70s are bad actions why are all the custom benchrest clones patterned on them? Oh wait! They are all 700 clones, aren't they?
I use a bunch of CRF Mausers and really have nothing against 70s. That does not change the fact the hype over CRF is really just that, hype.
My buddy is ex special forces and was always a model 70 fan. He pointed out my 700 deficiencies so I asked him to show me. After it fed a cartridge as slow as he could move the bolt while upside down he simply handed the rifle back to me and headed home. No words were necessary. Ed k
The only concern you have with a push feed and extreme cold is the plunger ejector. If you use a lube that gels at super cold temps it can become sluggish if it gets too cold. But it's very easy to "fix". Just use acetone or lighter fluid to degreese it well and then add 1 drop of Automatic Transmission fluid to it to lube it, which is fine down to about -70F. If it's -70F (ambient temp, not wind chill) I am betting you may not be out hunting anyway.
Push feeds get a bad rap as a class and they should not. M-1 Garands, M14s, Mini 14s, AK -47s Mosin Nagants and G3s are all push feed rifles --------and all have good reputations for reliability.
The reason I see some push-feed rifles come into my shop every year is not the concept of the push feed system, but the fact that some of the extractors are a bit small and weak. Strong enough to work most of the time for sure, but if you compare the facts those that say they are "as reliable" need to justify it to me as a gunsmith. If you look at the extractor on an M14 or AK47 and then look at one on a Mossberg or Savage you'll see what I mean.
The facts are simple.
I have fixed exactly 1 control feed extractor in over 50 years of gunsmithing. It was on a 1914 Enfield 303 British about 20 years ago. The hook had a chip in it and would not always grab the shell.
I fix (replace) about 5-6 push feed extractors every year.
This year however I have only done 4 so far. I did one on a Marlin XL7 2 weeks ago. I replaced one on a Remington M700 in May and another in July. And I replaced one on a Savage M10 last month (that one didn't break so I must be honest about it. The customer lost it while fooling around with the bolt)
So I will say out front that push feed is not AS Reliable as control feed, but if you clean them correctly and use a light lube they have shown us all they are still quite good. If 99.995% is not good enough you can always buy a control feed rifle ----- so I don't see why such an issue starts to become like a religious tenant to either side. Get what you like.
My outlook is simply this:
If I can get what I want in a control feed action I'll get one. If not --- I am not unhappy with push feed. My Mossberg MVP 308 and my SAKO 222 are both push-feed actions and I have had no issues with them. I also owe autos all of which are push feeds. No problems yet. All but 1 of my lever action rifles are push feeds. (the Savage M99 is a controlled feed action) Again, no issues.
Keep your extractor clean by putting a drop of Hoppe's on them about 2 times a year, so the brass dust can be dissolved over time, but with no rusting dangers.
If you go into extreme cold I bet the Hoppe's would be fine, but if in doubt flush them out and use A.T.Fluid as I said above and you will be ok in the largest majority of cases.
The M700 is one extractor which is less forgiving them the T-Head types because there is no way to clean it out other then with a copper dissolving solvent, but if you pay attention and just use a drop of Hoppes now and then you will probably never have a problem. I would guess that all the 700, 721 and 722 extractors I have replaced in my life all had one thing in common. NO cleaning ever. I can't prove it, but I believe the 700 extractor would out last many barrels if their owners would just put a drop of cleaner on the bolt faces every year.
MIM castings are sometimes a problem. If you own such a rifle with an MIM cast extractor I may suggest you simply buy a spare extractor, ball and spring and make a hollow in the butt under the plate or pad to store it in along with a small pin punch to install them with. If you are the unlucky guy who has the 1 in 1000 that breaks, you can replace it yourself in the field in about 2 minutes. A fattened punch and a small magnet makes the job pretty easy. The magnet keeps you from dropping the ball.
I admit I have 1 Remington 700 but it was giving to me..
What was it giving you?
I would worry more about the trigger freezing on the rem...had it happiness to me on my coyote rifles several times...
I would go mod 70
I admit I have 1 Remington 700 but it was giving to me..
What was it giving you?
A fair question....
The only concern you have with a push feed and extreme cold is the plunger ejector. If you use a lube that gels at super cold temps it can become sluggish if it gets too cold. But it's very easy to "fix". Just use acetone or lighter fluid to degreese it well and then add 1 drop of Automatic Transmission fluid to it to lube it, which is fine down to about -70F. If it's -70F (ambient temp, not wind chill) I am betting you may not be out hunting anyway.
Push feeds get a bad rap as a class and they should not. M-1 Garands, M14s, Mini 14s, AK -47s Mosin Nagants and G3s are all push feed rifles --------and all have good reputations for reliability.
The reason I see some push-feed rifles come into my shop every year is not the concept of the push feed system, but the fact that some of the extractors are a bit small and weak. Strong enough to work most of the time for sure, but if you compare the facts those that say they are "as reliable" need to justify it to me as a gunsmith. If you look at the extractor on an M14 or AK47 and then look at one on a Mossberg or Savage you'll see what I mean.
The facts are simple.
I have fixed exactly 1 control feed extractor in over 50 years of gunsmithing. It was on a 1914 Enfield 303 British about 20 years ago. The hook had a chip in it and would not always grab the shell.
I fix (replace) about 5-6 push feed extractors every year.
This year however I have only done 4 so far. I did one on a Marlin XL7 2 weeks ago. I replaced one on a Remington M700 in May and another in July. And I replaced one on a Savage M10 last month (that one didn't break so I must be honest about it. The customer lost it while fooling around with the bolt)
So I will say out front that push feed is not AS Reliable as control feed, but if you clean them correctly and use a light lube they have shown us all they are still quite good. If 99.995% is not good enough you can always buy a control feed rifle ----- so I don't see why such an issue starts to become like a religious tenant to either side. Get what you like.
My outlook is simply this:
If I can get what I want in a control feed action I'll get one. If not --- I am not unhappy with push feed. My Mossberg MVP 308 and my SAKO 222 are both push-feed actions and I have had no issues with them. I also owe autos all of which are push feeds. No problems yet. All but 1 of my lever action rifles are push feeds. (the Savage M99 is a controlled feed action) Again, no issues.
Keep your extractor clean by putting a drop of Hoppe's on them about 2 times a year, so the brass dust can be dissolved over time, but with no rusting dangers.
If you go into extreme cold I bet the Hoppe's would be fine, but if in doubt flush them out and use A.T.Fluid as I said above and you will be ok in the largest majority of cases.
The M700 is one extractor which is less forgiving them the T-Head types because there is no way to clean it out other then with a copper dissolving solvent, but if you pay attention and just use a drop of Hoppes now and then you will probably never have a problem. I would guess that all the 700, 721 and 722 extractors I have replaced in my life all had one thing in common. NO cleaning ever. I can't prove it, but I believe the 700 extractor would out last many barrels if their owners would just put a drop of cleaner on the bolt faces every year.
MIM castings are sometimes a problem. If you own such a rifle with an MIM cast extractor I may suggest you simply buy a spare extractor, ball and spring and make a hollow in the butt under the plate or pad to store it in along with a small pin punch to install them with. If you are the unlucky guy who has the 1 in 1000 that breaks, you can replace it yourself in the field in about 2 minutes. A fattened punch and a small magnet makes the job pretty easy. The magnet keeps you from dropping the ball.
Shaking my head in awe...
One CRF extractor in your career? Bullshit! Either you do very, very, very little work or you cannot diagnose a bad extractor, period.
I admit I have 1 Remington 700 but it was giving to me..
What was it giving you?
What was it giving you? To clarify, for the guys in Texas. The lone model 700 I have, was giving to me..
Far as pushfeeds I will take the model 70 pushfeed over the 700. The Winchester has the better safety and trigger.
i own Remington 700`s and Winchester 70`s with the claw, both types of actions have work fine most of the time.i have had and seen 700`s freeze up when i was in the mountains on horse back when we had snow,cold weather and freezing rain with the 700 rifle in the gun boot on the horse with no bolt cover.i also have had model 70`s in this same conditions on the horse and that type action did not freeze up. myself now if i hunt in the mountains with a rifle i use a Weatherby mark 5 reason the back of the bolt is protected and won`t freeze up as easy, plus when the safety is on the Weatherby bolt won`t happen to fall open either like a 700 can,Winchester 70 won`t fall open either. > as far as too which is a better bench rifle action 700 or 70 neither are as good as a Bat action ever ,the reason some bench shooters use 700`s they are cheap to use but still are not as good as a Bat action. >also i hunt the border in Northern Minnesota 10 miles from Canada we may have cold weather but we don`t have the cold,snowy ,wet freezing rain as in a the mountains , throw in horses for 10 days in a tent camp, that`s when you can test the nasty weather conditions of a rifle and i won`t ever take a 700 up there again in those conditions with grizzly bears too.
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
If only you had cleaned the trigger thoroughly and used dry lube or lighter fluid...
Many, many years of hunting on Kodiak with 700s with many more using all manner of makes and models... only constant in the group was in A-Bort trigger linkage for corroding and seizing the trigger.
How does cleaning the trigger prevent rain water from entering it then freezing when the temperature drops?
I stand by what I said earlier about mine, and my sons freezing up. When you are hunting in rain and then it freezes begins the nightmare. When your living in a tent for 10 days you even learn to leave the rifle outside to avoid extra condensation.
Went to “open” triggers and the issue resolved its self.
If only you had cleaned the trigger thoroughly and used dry lube or lighter fluid...
Many, many years of hunting on Kodiak with 700s with many more using all manner of makes and models... only constant in the group was in A-Bort trigger linkage for corroding and seizing the trigger.
How does cleaning the trigger prevent rain water from entering it then freezing when the temperature drops?
It does not, what it does do is prevent the ice from sticking to the metal strongly enough to prevent it from moving.
I had a bunch of different actions that I froze as posted earlier. If they were dirty it was easy to freeze any of them, including model 70s. If they were solvent cleaned with carb cleaner they were easy to freeze. If a little dry lube or lighter fluid was there after cleaning they were tough to freeze up. Even seriously cold-soaked and sprayed with water. The 70s did not do better than 700s. Treated the same they all pretty much acted the same.
I admit I have 1 Remington 700 but it was giving to me..
What was it giving you?
What was it giving you? To clarify, for the guys in Texas. The lone model 700 I have, was giving to me..
Lemme hep ya.....GIVEN.
just "give" to me, in Texas
PF will work fine. Keep the action clean and dry. Don’t use oil for that hunt. And keep blue tape over the muzzle.
This^^^
The other colors freeze up!
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