... viewed in Texas these days? I know that he has had his ups and downs over the years.

Cue up Kaywoodie ......

Well he ded

But in reality, I would speculate the majority of folks currently living here havent a clue about him other than they named a city after him.

Sorry if I sound cynical. But its the most honest answer I could come up with.

I was thinking the same damned thing Bob.

Well....we are in a semi circle with our legs crossed.

Juice boxes in hand.......

Ready for a story!

I think from those with an inkling of knowledge bordering on political correctness, his has a better reputation that Mirabeau Lamar. And most old dyed in the wool nativeTexas respect him. Historically in my county, most of his contemporaries here held him contempt as a coward. Edward Burleson, one of his ablest fied commanders at San Jacinto and from here in Bastrop l, did all in his power to denigrate him until the day he died.

But even most of the natives here are more knowledgeable of the myth, than they are any real truth about the man. I doubt most have read anything about him since their 5th grade Texas history class.

I’ve visited his grave, his home, and his Monument.
Unfortunately, I’ve never visited the San Jacinto Battlefield.

I always thought one of his (Houston’s) shining moments was when he throddled Congressman William Stanbury with a hickory cane!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stanbery

Always thought, and I still do, that more elected officials should receive beatings either on the floor in open debate or on the street on their way to dine! I openly endorse this !!!!!!

Here Here!

Way back about 1970 Texas history was a required freshman class - no more? I got to skip it because my freshman year was in Iowa.

Its a complete fuggin mystery to me....and us.

I do have my Gonzales flag tacked proudly to my wall however.

I will happily add that men like Andrew Jackson had absolutely no issues protecting their own hide in such altercations

I once stated that I admired Andrew Jackson.

They asked me if that was allowed....you know....now a days.

Frogsnacks.

Here ya go Big Jim!

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fho73

Jim,

I consider myself a staunch Jacksonian!

With the way our schools are ran nowadays, I wouldn’t be surprised if they teach fuggin Mexico history instead. 😡

Bring back politician dueling. Liberal democrats would think long and hard
before they accused a man of lying.

A woman that travels the world with her three girls posts on YouTube her adventures. Her latest trip was to Houston. When she saw the Sam Houston statue on Main Street in Herman Park, she said, "Wow, I had no idea Sam Houston was an actual person."

Told her she needed to increase her education.

This! Unfortunately, most don’t have the balls for it.

Concerning your flag, Jim!

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/qeg03

Yep!

Houston...right when he kicked out the Messicans. Wrong on the WBTS. Nuf said.

Them what don't know about Sam.....ain't deserving of knowing him!!

Well, he couldn't make the cut as governor of Tennessee- - - - -abandoned his young bride under mysterious circumstances, and headed west. I guess he was more suited to Texas, as it seems he did pretty well there.
Jerry

Then we hang him.

I like the way you think!

quick question: which actor did you like more as Sam Houston?

Richard Boone or Sam Elliott?

Me three 🙄

Sam Elliot. Of course!

Bob, what was that movie you were in about the Battle of San Jacinto ???

A real barking dog called "Two for Texas”.

Tom Skerritt with an Amishesque, Abe Lincoln beard and faux bobcat vest as Sam Houston!!!!!!

Peter Coyote played Jim Bowie.

Woof woof!!!
(Thats my other dog impression!)

Neither. Bill Paxton in Texas rising.

Aw it wasn’t that bad. I’ve seen it at least twice. 🤠

Oh yeah Neal, Kris Kristoferson was in it too!

What I liked about the Sam Elliott "Gone To Texas " movie was the Rolex lookin’ watch on the fellow cheering when they loaded the wounded Houston on the Yellowstone after the battle. Arf Arf!!!

Edit! I just went and looked. It was one of them big azz grandpaw Timex!

People were cheering when they loaded Houston onto the Yellowstone?

What, because he was going away?

Course it was big. I held an hourglass!

LOL !

I’m inclined to agree with Crockett “I was a Jackson man when Jackson was Jackson.”

Anyone who would make an enemy out of Crockett was probably wrong.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

Yeah! Ed Burleson, Bobby Coleman, and Jesse Billingsley were haulin’ the stretcher!!!!

Probably so. Just Can’t make everyone happy! 😁
Edit! But I believe they both shares the same ideas concerning fiscal responsibility

How is Sam Houston viewed in Texas these days? Well, Santa Anna is still gone. There's a whale of a monument commemorating San Jacinto nearby...

The San Houston Statue on I-45 near Huntsville, TX use to be the second tallest statue in the US. Second only to the Statue of Liberty. I think they’re a couple of others now, that are a little taller though.

There is a military post named after him in San Antonio. I was privileged to get to spend 13 months there in my misguided youth. It was a big thing to have a connection to Sam Houston, both the Fort and the Name back then. But, maybe it was a different Texas back then.

kwg

Sam Houston State univ in Huntsville. Or as many say Sam Houston Institute of Technology

(Makes a great sweat shirt logo)

Thank you, Oddball.

Hahaha!

Used to attend the South Havre Institute of Technology.

Lovely campus!

There also Sam Houston National Forest in E TX

Well.. they said that about Roy, too.

I never heard any taint of opprobrium directed at Houston for his abrupt departure from everything, even the Govenorship of Tennessee on account of events on his wedding night. To their credit I don’t believe either party have ever so much as a hint as to the reason.

Contrast that to Travis; abandons the wife who he got pregnant when he was her school teacher and their infant son in Alabama and runs to Texas to escape his debtors.

On Travis, the thing that troubles me most is when the vanguard of the Mexican Army arrives and surprises everyone (well, the Americans at least) and everyone runs inside the Alamo. Jim Bowie under a white flag rides out that first day to determine what the heck is going on, and probably to possibly save everyones’ lives (IIRC Santa Anna himself doesn’t get there until Day 3 ).

Unlike Travis, Bowie was an experienced leader of men in and out of combat and had beaten Mexican soldiers in battle at least twice. Bowie had negotiated with that same honorable Mexican Officer two months earlier when they handed over the Alamo to us in the face of a stalemate.

During negotiations, Travis, in a fit of pique, actually OPENS FIRE with the gynomous 18-pounder cannon, sending a ball flying in the direction of the Mexican Army while Bowie himself was negotiating under a flag of truce. An act likely to be perceived as base treachery and which at the very least arguably sealed the ultimate fate of the Alamo Defenders.

(What you had inside the Alamo was about 200 guys who just happened to be in town when the Mexican Army showed up. Mexican records tell us they were repeatedly trying to negotiate terms of armed withdrawal, same deal we had cut with the Mexicans two months earlier).

But here’s the deal; what level of absolute disregard for the visibly ailing Bowie must Travis have had to place the man’s life in such critical danger? Jealousy?

Apparently Travis was a veritible Don Juan when it came to the wimmins. Like he kept score.

He was a putz

Glad we agree.

He did write very well though.

Houston came to Texas with the stated ambition to become the leader of Texas, either as the President of a sovereign nation or as Governor of a new State. While here he did everything he could to make that happen and ultimately succeeded.

A lot of people I respect like Ed Burleson despised the man, as did prob’ly the majority who actually fought in the Battle of San Jacinto.

We do have to give much credit to Houston for a) realizing the critical importance of capturing Santa Anna after the battle and b) sparing his life once captured.

Without those two events happening the Texans would have been most likely defeated an scattered by fast approaching superior Mexican forces, and San Jacinto woulda become an obscure footnote.

Had a flair with the pen but was lacking in other skills.

Once i was traveling in east Texas and saw the rather large statue of old Sam in the middle of a forest.

Didn't stop but it was a sight.

Here Here and Hear Hear!!!!

Sam Houston was not very popular in my little part of East Texas, ranking right up there with indians and reconstruction. My brother was born in his old law office in San Augustine....later a doctor's office.

Or a good old fashioned fist fight for that matter.

I was raised right across the bay from the battlefield. Worth a visit, but to me the Battleship Texas overshadowed everything else for cool factor. If still there, the San Jacinto Inn had great seafood years ago.

I wonder if Houston really ever called David Burnett a "hog thief" as in one of the movies?

I actually felt a bit bad for Houston, reading Colonel Sir Arthur JL Fremantle’s( Coldstream Guards) description of him when he met him on a train from I believe Columbus Tx to Houston in 1863, several weeks before his death. Fremantle was on his way to Gettysburg. He just didn’t know it at the time.

I wish I could find that quote. But I gave the only copy of the Colonels book I had to my boss about 20 years ago.

It was not a pretty picture.

Hardly walk.( bad foot from old wound at San Jacinto). Snuff drooling out of the corners of his vest and down his waistcoat. Appeared all he could talk about was the days of the republic.

Adam Schiff would leave town if he had to answer for his mouth.

Yeah, I guess I don't understand why Sam Houston would be controversial but I'm not a native Texan (been here 30 years).

My sisters (Army Nurses) spent some time down there for their OBCs.

Most of the controvery, if one actually exists, is ancient and really has nothing much to do with current events. The important thing for history as birdy stated is the taking of Santa Anna alive and keeping him alive.

The rub in 1836 was many had labeled him as a drunk and coward. Burleson’s biggest beef with him was his(Houston’s) lack of confidence in his army. Burleson had a devil of a time convincing Houston that at least his men would put up a fight. Burleson commanded men from the frontier who had been involved in a war with the natives since their arrival. They had ample experience.

In their retrograde from the Texian settlements to the east, the Texians practiced a scortched earth policy. Many towns never really recovered (to this day). There were plantations that had emmense investments that were rapidly approaching their planting season that were being abandoned. (Birdy, please interject the cotton cartel now). The army was being whipped into shape. ( With volunteer arriving daily that appeared to be US Army derserters???).

But Houston would not make a stand This pizzed off a lot of folks. Birdy! Last March at La Bahia event, I heard a rumor that a major Texas Historian we all know and love, recenty discovered a letter in some archives somewhere from a major plantation owner stating to the provisional prez that a group existed that was ready to replace Houston by force (with backing of Houstons field commanders) if he Didnt make a stand asap!


Shortly after, San Jacinto occured!

Dunno all the facts to that rumor.

Thanks for the clarification!

I suppose a second controvery might be his anti-sessionists leanings in 1861. The old Jacksonian concept coming back. (I remember Jackson’s alleged quote, "My only regrets were not shooting Henry Clay and hanging John C. Calhoun when I had the chance!")

Personally I never considered this an issue. He flat told the legislature, secession would bite Texas in the ass.

On the cowardice angle, as a young man , Houston was one of the first guys over the Red Sticks’ fortifications at Horseshoe Bend. Throwing himself into the rough and tumble of Early Texian politics weren’t for the faint of heart either, we lost a whole lot of contenders in duels back in those days.

Later on, being pro-Union in Texas during the war years could and did get you murdered, all over the state. Despite tthreats, Houston stuck to his guns and stayed put.

I suspect the concept that if you were gonna kill Houston he was going to be shooting back might have had a hand in that.

Yeah Birdy. I concur. Never considered any cowardice on his part!

Drunk???? Well I can’t hold that against a guy either. My hypocrisy goes only so far! 🤣🤣🤣l

Edit!

“Later on, being pro-Union in Texas during the war years could and did get you murdered, all over the state. Despite tthreats, Houston stuck to his guns and stayed put."

Yeah! Wanna talk about lynching???? Hundreds of WHITE folks lynched in Texas or bushwhacked for being Unionist.

I would add that nobody “commanded” Texians. If they didn’t respect you or agree with you they wouldn’t follow your orders and even leave your army.

You couldn’t tell these men to do anything, but you could get them to keep their word. The way you led them was to take votes. You drew a line in the sand with your sword and took a vote. The understanding was if you even participated in this vote in the first place you agreed to comply with whatever the majority ruled. You couldn’t change your vote later Either as everyone had seen on what side of the line you voted.

If Santa Ana had been smart Mexico won the war when they captured the ~350-man Texian army at Goliad, almost none of whom were actual Texians. The great majority of the Anglo residents of Texas hadn’t even picked up a gun yet when the Goliad massacre occurred. As a group they were deeply divided over the topic of independence versus remaining in Mexico, all the major property owners owned their land under Mexican Law

When Santa Ana was dumb enough to execute everybody captured at Goliad he kick-started the war back to life by creating a mass panic in Texas popularly known as the Runaway Scrape.

At that time Sam Houston had about 300 men under his “command” at Gonzales, and there was nothing to do but retreat. Two weeks later Houston’s force had swelled to 1,500 men. Over the subsequent two weeks after that Houston lost half his men, these guys walked because they didn’t like Houston, who had a talent for pi$$ing people off. Houston’s army left a trail of disaffected men everywhere it went.

Going into it, the trail of events leading up to and during the Battle of San Jacinto were so unlikely that you could make a case for Divine Intervention.

An Ed Burleson for example, might have had the proven track record and management skills to keep that force intact, whether he woulda won without a measure of Houston’s luck is another question entirely.

As things turned out however Houston was exactly the right foul-mouthed devious backstabbing alcoholic at exactly the right time and place.

Wasn't it Santa Anna's brother in law who ordered the Goliad massacre? Of note on Houston, he had two Cherokee names; the Raven and Big Drunk. Seems every time in Houston's life that he had a rough patch, he went to live with the Cherokees.

Not that I'm aware of, General Martin Perfecto de Cos, Santa Anna's BiL was in the doghouse with Santa Anna on account of he had actually been driven out of the Alamo and Texas by the Texian rabble back in December of '35, so Santa Anna obliged Cos to break the terms of that December agreement by returning to Texas under arms.

Santa Anna's thorn through the whole campaign was General Jose de Urrea who commanded the wing of his army that came up from the south through Matamoras.

Urrea was very good, he beat the Texians at San Patricio and Agua Dulce, on that second occasion running down and killing the British Subject James Grant. Grant, was attempting to lead a Texian force south of the Rio Grande to defend his silver mines. Grant was killed on March 2nd, 130 miles south of San Antonio. There is a general belief among many that Santa Anna took the Alamo when he did so that Urrea's victories would not eclipse his own record.

Urrea then proceeds to thrash 150 Texians again at Refugio (March 15th) before defeating and capturing the remaining 350-man Texian Army outside of Goliad (March 20th).

By this point Santa Anna really needs to get back to Mexico, he had been gone more than three months and his Vice President had just perished of a fever in a country where an average government lasted just two years before being overthrown.

Urrea wins the war by capturing the Texian Army (even Houston thought we had lost at that point).

Now Santa Anna is in a pickle, Urrea just became the star. So he takes Urrea out of command, orders the captured American pirates (legally they were) executed despite their having surrendered under terms and, knowing the Texians would be in flight, rushes down the coast with his fastest troops looking to capture and execute either Texian Government; pro-Independence or pro-1842 Constitution. Said capture/execution being the only sort of victory he expected to be able to claim at that point.

Hence the stage was set for San Jacinto.

It should be pointed out that there was considerable reluctance among many in the Mexican Army to execute the Goliad prisoners, and a handful were hidden and saved by some enlisted men and officers.

OTOH while some local Tejanos actively aided those few Americans who escaped the massacre, others wished the Texians to be executed because of crimes against locals committed by the worst of those Americans during the previous months.