Y'all have heard me mention my 10 acres over in MS. I have it looking pretty darned good and have turned it into a nice little retreat. I need storage for my tractor and I'd like to have a bit of a camp house.
I have considered all kinds of options from shipping containers and RVs, to a garage apartment and now to metal buildings and enclosed pole barns. We had some discussion on this in the past and some of you pointed me toward he metal building solution. I can get a 30 wide X 40 long pole barn with 30x30 enclosed and 30x10 serving as a covered porch, on a slab built for about 18K. I'd like to use 15x30 for storage and 15x30 for the camp/living quarters.
I am not very handy at all, but I make a good laborer and have friends and family who have said they'd help me a bit with the camp side build. I don't think it'll be much of a project at all. But being as I am not really good with this sort of stuff, I am sure there are some things I haven't considered. I thought I'd start a thread to kick off discussion and pick the brains of people who have done this or who know about it.
Barry, I know you did the barndominium thing so you may have some input. My first question is about insulation. I am thinking about having the entire thing spray foamed before I start on the camp side. If i did that, would I further need to insulate the "attic" part of the camp and the garage side wall? Have any of you had spray foam done on a metal building? If so what was the cost? Does the spray foam insulation keep the inside of the structure a bearable temperature? Would I be better off leaving the metal structure uninsulated and only insulating the living side. I won't be heating or cooling the garage side of the building, at least not initially.
Second question. Since the steel is corrugated, how is it sealed off at the top and bottom to keep critters out?
Here's a rough sketch of the way I think I want the camp side to be laid out. The water heater will go in the garage side and the inside unit for the AC will go in the attic part over the bath.
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
Just the kind of info I was looking for on the insulation. Thanks Hanco! Spray foam insulation?
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
Yes.
Insulate the non heated garage/shop area too.
I speaketh from years of living in a barndominium without benefit of insulation in the shop.
Insulation even in non conditioned spaces is a GOOD thing.
Like Hanco notes. I used to inspect. Attics in TX in the summer were a bitch. Then you get a call for a smoke alarm and do the attic in full bunker gear.. ugh.
Anyway when foam came along I could go into an attic that was generally at least 130 plus in the afternoon of summer and now the sprayed attics were about 85 or so. Yes I'd sweat but not profusely or immediately so much.
In laws could not afford it. But for the house part I did insist we put the thickest fiberglass we could get since we had THICK walls. It helped a lot.
Foam usually at least doubles the cost.
My buddy just had his underfloor sprayed a thin coat. late 1800s house. Amazing that the air drafts through the floor stopped and how much better the house is from just that.
Insulation even in non conditioned spaces is a GOOD thing.
Like Hanco notes. I used to inspect. Attics in TX in the summer were a bitch. Then you get a call for a smoke alarm and do the attic in full bunker gear.. ugh.
Anyway when foam came along I could go into an attic that was generally at least 130 plus in the afternoon of summer and now the sprayed attics were about 85 or so. Yes I'd sweat but not profusely or immediately so much.
In laws could not afford it. But for the house part I did insist we put the thickest fiberglass we could get since we had THICK walls. It helped a lot.
Foam usually at least doubles the cost.
My buddy just had his underfloor sprayed a thin coat. late 1800s house. Amazing that the air drafts through the floor stopped and how much better the house is from just that.
There is no question in my mind now that the whole thing will get insulated. I guess closed cell spray foam is the right choice for a metal building huh?
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
Yes.
Insulate the non heated garage/shop area too.
I speaketh from years of living in a barndominium without benefit of insulation in the shop.
If you insulate the entire thing, do you run into ventilation issues with moisture/mold/mildew?
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
Yes.
Insulate the non heated garage/shop area too.
I speaketh from years of living in a barndominium without benefit of insulation in the shop.
If you insulate the entire thing, do you run into ventilation issues with moisture/mold/mildew?
No.
It may sweat in high humidity areas if you keep everything closed up with zero ventilation, But usually there's enough airflow to stop that.
I’ve never seen moisture issues in a metal building that’s insulated. Down here the insulation has a heavy plastic backing, installed before metal sheets are put on. It’s about 8 foot wide, comes in a large roll. I’ll take some pics when I go back to the maintenance center.
!00% agree with Tikka on the 2' concrete stem walls. Not only does it keep water and critters out, it makes it real easy to hose out the space inside every once and awhile. We didn't do it on our first shop, but did it on our lower shop and really like it.
Paul, happy to connect live as I had something built on my hunting land a few years ago that sounds very similar
Metal building on 40x40 slab. One end is a 40x15 garage with 10 foot garage doors on both ends. Holds tractor with bush hog, two UTVs and hunting gear no problem. Uninsulated
The balance of the slab has 25x10 covered porches front and back with a 25x20 bunk room in between. It is well insulated, finished on inside with T1-11 siding, a small kitchenette, built in window a/c unit, basic bathroom/shower. Small tankless water heater that is sufficient for the shower. Ceiling height is 10-12 feet so it feels bigger
Grill, fire pit, some outdoor seating. It’s been perfect for my son and I when we hunt. Bunk beds for 6 though we haven’t had more than 4. Even a TV on the wall that I can watch with a Roku and a cell hot spot for football games
It’s nice enough that we enjoy being there but not so nice that I feel bad if we go a couple months without spending the night. It’s only an hour away so lots of trips down for a quick morning of afternoon hunt without an overnight - but having that shower is key when I go straight to the office after a morning hunt
Paul, happy to connect live as I had something built on my hunting land a few years ago that sounds very similar
Metal building on 40x40 slab. One end is a 40x15 garage with 10 foot garage doors on both ends. Holds tractor with bush hog, two UTVs and hunting gear no problem. Uninsulated
The balance of the slab has 25x10 covered porches front and back with a 25x20 bunk room in between. It is well insulated, finished on inside with T1-11 siding, a small kitchenette, built in window a/c unit, basic bathroom/shower. Small tankless water heater that is sufficient for the shower. Ceiling height is 10-12 feet so it feels bigger
Grill, fire pit, some outdoor seating. It’s been perfect for my son and I when we hunt. Bunk beds for 6 though we haven’t had more than 4. Even a TV on the wall that I can watch with a Roku and a cell hot spot for football games
It’s nice enough that we enjoy being there but not so nice that I feel bad if we go a couple months without spending the night. It’s only an hour away so lots of trips down for a quick morning of afternoon hunt without an overnight - but having that shower is key when I go straight to the office after a morning hunt
I like your thinking. It sounds like you were looking for the same thing I am. Do you have any pics? I am probably going with 10' ceilings in the main living area. I will probably go 8 in the back half, as that will leave a loft space available up there should the need arise.
This past summer I purchased a metal building from Elite Buildings ( do a google) 18x50 14' to the eaves vertical roof and had 2" of spray foam put on everything to get me up and running. Then over the past 8 months I put 2" rigid insulation board over that after the wiring was complete. The spray foam cost $1.00 per in per sq. foot so 2" was double. I glued the rigid in place. I live in Pa. the temp outside today is 21 with a good wind blowing I have a Harman wood/coal stove sitting dead center smoke stack out thru roof it is 69 in there now with the stove at half draft. I never understood why people bother with insulation in a garage get it nice and warm then open a huge overhead door to drive the truck out...duh.
Paul, happy to connect live as I had something built on my hunting land a few years ago that sounds very similar
Metal building on 40x40 slab. One end is a 40x15 garage with 10 foot garage doors on both ends. Holds tractor with bush hog, two UTVs and hunting gear no problem. Uninsulated
The balance of the slab has 25x10 covered porches front and back with a 25x20 bunk room in between. It is well insulated, finished on inside with T1-11 siding, a small kitchenette, built in window a/c unit, basic bathroom/shower. Small tankless water heater that is sufficient for the shower. Ceiling height is 10-12 feet so it feels bigger
Grill, fire pit, some outdoor seating. It’s been perfect for my son and I when we hunt. Bunk beds for 6 though we haven’t had more than 4. Even a TV on the wall that I can watch with a Roku and a cell hot spot for football games
It’s nice enough that we enjoy being there but not so nice that I feel bad if we go a couple months without spending the night. It’s only an hour away so lots of trips down for a quick morning of afternoon hunt without an overnight - but having that shower is key when I go straight to the office after a morning hunt
I like your thinking. It sounds like you were looking for the same thing I am. Do you have any pics? I am probably going with 10' ceilings in the main living area. I will probably go 8 in the back half, as that will leave a loft space available up there should the need arise.
I’m on a cross country flight but will post the crappy pics I have later this week and/or take some better ones
On the loft idea, I could have done a small one with lower ceilings for storage but the way the trusses work there is not room for loft space for anything more than some extra storage
I did a similar thing on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan about 15 years ago. I would do all the spray foam insulation I could afford. The last few summers have been hot (for us anyway) but if I open the windows at night and keep the blinds drawn the inside stays reasonably cool during the day. And I can't fire up my wood stove for heat until it gets down to thirty otherwise the place gets too hot - although that also may not be much of a problem in MS. I know you didn't bring this up, but I put in as many windows as I could and wish I had put in one or two more. Also wish I had done a solar light or two in the living area. It looks like you could put another window in the bedroom and maybe some glass blocks over the bathtub. I also did not notice any space for a pressure tank if you'll have a well, a water heater or a circuit breaker box. I left those out of my original design and had to make an unplanned sacrifice of space. I'm guessing those could go in the garage space down there though. I agree with ShortMagFan - tall ceilings can make a big difference. Good luck. Looks like a good plan.
I did a similar thing on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan about 15 years ago. I would do all the spray foam insulation I could afford. The last few summers have been hot (for us anyway) but if I open the windows at night and keep the blinds drawn the inside stays reasonably cool during the day. And I can't fire up my wood stove for heat until it gets down to thirty otherwise the place gets too hot - although that also may not be much of a problem in MS. I know you didn't bring this up, but I put in as many windows as I could and wish I had put in one or two more. Also wish I had done a solar light or two in the living area. It looks like you could put another window in the bedroom and maybe some glass blocks over the bathtub. I also did not notice any space for a pressure tank if you'll have a well, a water heater or a circuit breaker box. I left those out of my original design and had to make an unplanned sacrifice of space. I'm guessing those could go in the garage space down there though. I agree with ShortMagFan - tall ceilings can make a big difference. Good luck. Looks like a good plan.
Man, great info coming in. The water heater will go in the garage adjacent to the bathroom, as will the circuit breaker box. There is community water at the edge of the road, so no well needed. I may indeed go with more windows. I am thinking some clelestory type windows up high would be nice.
I may use a few clear panels over the garage part, but am not certain about that yet.
The big fans are a must. My dad has a 55x35 shop with 14' ceilings. He has 3 fans across the top to blow the air down and move it around. It's heated by a Big Maxx 50,000 BTU NG heater. Sucker holds the heat in for sure, even in the northern MN cold ass winters.
Insulation even in non conditioned spaces is a GOOD thing.
Like Hanco notes. I used to inspect. Attics in TX in the summer were a bitch. Then you get a call for a smoke alarm and do the attic in full bunker gear.. ugh.
Anyway when foam came along I could go into an attic that was generally at least 130 plus in the afternoon of summer and now the sprayed attics were about 85 or so. Yes I'd sweat but not profusely or immediately so much.
In laws could not afford it. But for the house part I did insist we put the thickest fiberglass we could get since we had THICK walls. It helped a lot.
Foam usually at least doubles the cost.
My buddy just had his underfloor sprayed a thin coat. late 1800s house. Amazing that the air drafts through the floor stopped and how much better the house is from just that.
There is no question in my mind now that the whole thing will get insulated. I guess closed cell spray foam is the right choice for a metal building huh?
At this point in time there are no negatives to foam and all positives IMHO. It supposedly off gases and thats supposed to be safe. IMHO its not enough for me to worry on and I suspect the majority is overnight before the building is complete. Spray foam is superior period to me for most uses. If you can afford it. I couldn't afford it in a smokehouse/walk in cooler room we built so we did fiberglass and its ok so far but not sure it would hold up as well in the long run.
As to moisture, IF its an issue you ad vent air. I"ve seen it in one barndominium so far. Add air from outside, filtered and problem solved.
Insulation even in non conditioned spaces is a GOOD thing.
Like Hanco notes. I used to inspect. Attics in TX in the summer were a bitch. Then you get a call for a smoke alarm and do the attic in full bunker gear.. ugh.
Anyway when foam came along I could go into an attic that was generally at least 130 plus in the afternoon of summer and now the sprayed attics were about 85 or so. Yes I'd sweat but not profusely or immediately so much.
In laws could not afford it. But for the house part I did insist we put the thickest fiberglass we could get since we had THICK walls. It helped a lot.
Foam usually at least doubles the cost.
My buddy just had his underfloor sprayed a thin coat. late 1800s house. Amazing that the air drafts through the floor stopped and how much better the house is from just that.
There is no question in my mind now that the whole thing will get insulated. I guess closed cell spray foam is the right choice for a metal building huh?
At this point in time there are no negatives to foam and all positives IMHO. It supposedly off gases and thats supposed to be safe. IMHO its not enough for me to worry on and I suspect the majority is overnight before the building is complete. Spray foam is superior period to me for most uses. If you can afford it. I couldn't afford it in a smokehouse/walk in cooler room we built so we did fiberglass and its ok so far but not sure it would hold up as well in the long run.
As to moisture, IF its an issue you ad vent air. I"ve seen it in one barndominium so far. Add air from outside, filtered and problem solved.
It's definitely humid down here. I am not quite sure what you mean when you say vent air. Can you clear me up a bit?
Some times a metal building that is tall enough to accommodate a second level can pencil out, smaller foot print = less concrete, less roof, etc. Just depends...
Some times a metal building that is tall enough to accommodate a second level can pencil out, smaller foot print = less concrete, less roof, etc. Just depends...
The one I am going with has 12' eaves. It would be pretty easy to get the same amount of useful space on a narrower footprint if I could work around the support members in the overhead. I wouldn't be able to work in windows the way I'd want to either.
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
Just the kind of info I was looking for on the insulation. Thanks Hanco! Spray foam insulation?
Be careful with spray insulation on raw steel. In a humid climate, you could be looking at rust at the junction of steel and insulation. Don't ask how I know.
If you frame with plywood, add the steel to the outside, that's a whole different matter, stronger, tighter building.
Some times a metal building that is tall enough to accommodate a second level can pencil out, smaller foot print = less concrete, less roof, etc. Just depends...
The one I am going with has 12' eaves. It would be pretty easy to get the same amount of useful space on a narrower footprint if I could work around the support members in the overhead. I wouldn't be able to work in windows the way I'd want to either.
So you'd need 16ft eaves. I've bought quite a few steel structure kits over the years, I just tell them what I want, they'll put together anything you need.
Like I said, sometimes it can pencil out to be the best idea, other times it don't.
Poured walls are da bomb... I refused to do block walls when I built this place in '80...
Originally Posted by JeffA
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by JeffA
Some times a metal building that is tall enough to accommodate a second level can pencil out, smaller foot print = less concrete, less roof, etc. Just depends...
The one I am going with has 12' eaves. It would be pretty easy to get the same amount of useful space on a narrower footprint if I could work around the support members in the overhead. I wouldn't be able to work in windows the way I'd want to either.
So you'd need 16ft eaves. .
Agreed... Keep in mind the loss of some height if a garage door opener's added...
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
Just the kind of info I was looking for on the insulation. Thanks Hanco! Spray foam insulation?
Be careful with spray insulation on raw steel. In a humid climate, you could be looking at rust at the junction of steel and insulation. Don't ask how I know.
If you frame with plywood, add the steel to the outside, that's a whole different matter, stronger, tighter building.
DF
I am a bit confused and concerned. All of the metal building dealers and contractors are recommending closed cell spray foam now. The foam will be applied to painted metal.
Just finishing up a steel structure - drew the basic design myself and had expert help to improve the strength aspects and do the actual construction. Purchased all materials according to design and made a few mods along the way. All welded with some screwed joints. It is a garage shop with no living quarters, so no advice on the LQ aspect.
This structure is based on two 45 ft. hi cube shipping containers (one runs along each side) which provide very secure inside shop and storage space, and the remainder of the enclosed portion is 40 ft. by 50 ft. on concrete slab. The 56 ft. wide and 20 ft. peaked roof continues for 30 ft. past one end of the enclosed portion to provide a nice big "carport" for covered storage and work. Six steel trusses in all - built on site.
Electrified but not insulated in any manner because that will not be needed at the location. Up at altitude I built two steel structures - one not insulated and one heavily so. Neither was heated so the only benefit on winter days was retained heat - and not much of a difference - and the full insulation became a pain in some ways.
this last one is my LAST ONE. But, it came out as anticipated and is quite nice.
My middle girl and her hubby have a barndominium. It is really nice. I would insulate all of it if you can afford it. Our room at work was an add on. It is insulated, but the electricians room next door, was an original part. It the same size but not insulated. It is 30 degrees hotter in the heat of the summer and unbearable. We can sit in ours with no AC in the afternoon.
Just the kind of info I was looking for on the insulation. Thanks Hanco! Spray foam insulation?
Be careful with spray insulation on raw steel. In a humid climate, you could be looking at rust at the junction of steel and insulation. Don't ask how I know.
If you frame with plywood, add the steel to the outside, that's a whole different matter, stronger, tighter building.
DF
I am a bit confused and concerned. All of the metal building dealers and contractors are recommending closed cell spray foam now. The foam will be applied to painted metal.
Well they should know.
I had an earlier version of spray insulation applied to an older metal barn roof. After a number of years, had to replace the metal due to rust. It obviously wasn't the current foam spray.
Just inquire about their guarantee and assurance it won't hold moisture against the metal.
I got my quote from the metal building dealer. At this point it looks like it'll cost me $23,500 to have it erected on a slab. On top of that I'll have to have it insulated, get water run from the road to the building, get electric run from the road to the building and have a septic system installed. Then I'll have to do my interior build out. I was hoping I could be into this in the low 30's but it's looking more like 40K now.
Running the electrical in a metal building is a pain, especially if you're going to finish part of it to live in and want it to look good. Drill holes thru the metal for the conduit, welding brackets where you want the boxes to be, etc. If you dont mind exposed conduit and electrical boxes and conduit, it's not too bad. Finishing out the inside, depending on the building, may require bolting studs to the walls/ceiling for paneling, drywall, etc.
I got my quote from the metal building dealer. At this point it looks like it'll cost me $23,500 to have it erected on a slab. On top of that I'll have to have it insulated, get water run from the road to the building, get electric run from the road to the building and have a septic system installed. Then I'll have to do my interior build out. I was hoping I could be into this in the low 30's but it's looking more like 40K now.
Not sure exactly how you are going at it but I've never bought anything other than the bare bones raw building from the steel building companies. They have a way of inching the costs up if I even try to get them to add doors to the package.
I've always hired local contractors to erect the structures after I have the slab done, building kit, doors and windows I shop out and purchased on site.
The various steel building suppliers can be pretty competitive with each other if they know you are shopping between them.
It costs ya some phone calls and a little more foot work but can save a considerable amount of money. A one phone call does it all deal sure has it's conveniences but can come at a hefty price.
Running the electrical in a metal building is a pain, especially if you're going to finish part of it to live in and want it to look good. Drill holes thru the metal for the conduit, welding brackets where you want the boxes to be, etc. If you dont mind exposed conduit and electrical boxes and conduit, it's not too bad. Finishing out the inside, depending on the building, may require bolting studs to the walls/ceiling for paneling, drywall, etc.
I am going to go for that look. I have seen it used very tastefully in modern structures. I think it's kind of cool.
I got my quote from the metal building dealer. At this point it looks like it'll cost me $23,500 to have it erected on a slab. On top of that I'll have to have it insulated, get water run from the road to the building, get electric run from the road to the building and have a septic system installed. Then I'll have to do my interior build out. I was hoping I could be into this in the low 30's but it's looking more like 40K now.
remember the stem wall........I'll bet it rains a lot in your LA neighborhood......
Sure its a 2' concrete wall......but your steel sheeting will be 2' shorter......
Do they do pour concrete walls in your area ? Or cinder block ?
Did not connect mine to septic tank....my sink & washing machine drain into a 55 gallon drum filled with screened rock
Another thought......vehicle storage ? I have two floor drains that drain into 12" pipe filled with screened rock
Our soil here......is like a sponge.......very rocky & drains very well...
My power shares the same main panel from my house.......ran an 8 gauge cable to panel in garage...minimal...but enough
I got my quote from the metal building dealer. At this point it looks like it'll cost me $23,500 to have it erected on a slab. On top of that I'll have to have it insulated, get water run from the road to the building, get electric run from the road to the building and have a septic system installed. Then I'll have to do my interior build out. I was hoping I could be into this in the low 30's but it's looking more like 40K now.
Not sure exactly how you are going at it but I've never bought anything other than the bare bones raw building from the steel building companies. They have a way of inching the costs up if I even try to get them to add doors to the package.
I've always hired local contractors to erect the structures after I have the slab done, building kit, doors and windows I shop out and purchased on site.
The various steel building suppliers can be pretty competitive with each other if they know you are shopping between them.
It costs ya some phone calls and a little more foot work but can save a considerable amount of money. A one phone call does it all deal sure has it's conveniences but can come at a hefty price.
I have done a little preliminary scouting of prices. The price is consistent with what I am seeing elsewhere. The building with one 10x10 roll up door, two entry doors and 4 windows is going to be $11,600. I don't know how much money there is to be saved there. The building dealer has an assembly and concrete contractor they recommend. That contractor charges $5.50 per square foot for complete concrete work, from final site leveling, to forming to pouring and finishing. He charges $3.50/ SF of enclosed space, $2.25/ SF for unenclosed for building assembly and $200 per opening in labor.
So that's $6600 in the slab and $5225 in building labor. He is booked out about 2 months, so it appears there is appreciable demand at those prices.
My understanding is that closed cell foam should be OK for a pure metal building (no sheathing to rot) in the south. The advantage to closed cell foam is that it adds to structural rigidity.
Open cell foam is traditionally used in higher humidity areas (south) with traditional construction (wood/sheathing).
Windows.......Milgard same as what I used in house in 2012
Concrete......6 bag mix......also have approx 325 sq ft parking slab outside
Wiring......armored wiring eliminates the need for conduit
Amorlite is conduit with the wire already in it. Cost about $125/roll. Works good, but looks like schit if you have it pulled where you can see it.
MC Cable sucks...big time. Very easy to pinch or short out. Greasy and nasty to work with...did I mention it sucks? Lol Pipe it in with EMT and adding a circuit is a breeze. Save the MC cable for whips to your light fixtures.
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