He entered my stats into his cell phone and it says I have a 1% chance per year of heart attack or stroke.
I said no to statins.
My wife was sitting there.
She later told me she has used the same AMA program and when you enter "age 68 male" it does not matter what else you enter, it will spit out "1%".

My HDL is high, Tri is low, blood pressure is low, I am slim, and I exercise.

The wife asked for additional tests on my blood, and to schedule a Coronary CT scan.

So I have refused to take statins, but I have to go back for the scan.

I think you did the right thing. I won’t take them either.

I got the same from my doc.

He said I had a 14% chance of a "heart episode" in the next 15 years.

I said "that means an 86% chance I WON'T have one! I'll take those odds!"

He smiled...

I'm hearing they are great at reducing the risk of dementia.

If the AMA weren't controlled by the Govt. I would pay more attention to them. People are individuals, and a "standard" doesn't apply to everyone, but that's how the docs work.

It's funny how so many are against the big database in the sky holding and sharing medical info. Yet, they are happy with posting every doctor's visit, blood test results and PSA numbers on a hunting website.

Yes, the protocol says when your numbers are at a certain point you should be taking statins regardless.

My wife's grandmother was thin as a rail, she had a stroke.

All the praise of bourbon on this forum, and all the condemnation of prescribed drugs?

Do as you see best for yourself.

I’ve seen statins cause serious muscle weakness in people. Personally, they are far down on my list of needed meds. I have a family history of heart attack and stroke. If the exercise that I started 4 months ago doesn’t work to correct blood labs I’d consider other medications but would first take a serious look at supplimentals

I was on statins for maybe 3 years - hated taking them

so I lost weight, started exercising, got my numbers back in line and stopped taking them. All kinds of side effects I didn't want to deal with but was scared into it by my doctor.

Now I'm not going back.

As I said on another thread, the nightmares and leg agony (after double bypass surgery) were dying hell. Seeing Jesus face to face will be fantastic, and metaprolol plus statins made me want it to be NOW.

They really push that crap. Bad ratios don’t cause clogged arteries. Starchy and sugary diets do.

Just a few thoughts...

1. The advice to take a statin is based on statistics that indicate levels of risk. It's true people are individuals and not everyone with a high cholesterol will die of a heart attack or stroke, statistics indicate when there is more of a risk in not being treated than in being treated. If you feel lucky, make your own stuff up.

2. For the guy with a 14% chance of a "heart episode" in the next 15 years who is OK with that, I say you'll rethink that if said episode happens. That is if you're still alive and thinking.

3. If your doctor doesn't recommend standard therapy, guess who will be blamed when you have the big one?

4. I presume your wife has some sort of medical background and is qualified to recommend "additional tests" and a "Coronary CT scan." Carefully consider this. If the CT scan shows coronary artery calcification does that mean you will take a statin? If the CT scan is fine, does than mean you won't have a heart attack? It should be of some consolation to you that since you're 68, the radiation from the CT scan is extremely unlikely to initiate cancer in your lifetime.

5. And finally, did you know that lifestyle modification can prevent and even reverse coronary artery disease? That would mean no smoking and an entirely plant based diet and for those with a severe problem, no fats or oils. Maybe that's too much. Probably easier to have bypass surgery.

By the way, I don't take a statin and wouldn't want to. My doctor recommend I take an aspirin daily and I declined. My risk of having a heart attack is exceedingly small since my total cholesterol is always less than 140 so I don't need a statin. I would have more of a risk of bleeding from the aspirin than my risk of a stroke or heart attack without it. Oh, I must add, I've been a vegetarian for the last 50 years.

cost/benefit check. Sometimes it works out to your favor

Stopped taking my little, itty, bitty, pill.
Cholesterol is at 42, asked why, doc said it's way low, but take it for maintenance.
For some time, I would wake up, and say to the wife, "let the pain begin". My whole body hurt, some days, bad.
When I stopped the pill, the whole body pain stopped.
I'm down 52 pounds from a year and a half ago.
BP is down, no more meds.
Had to get my sugar down for back surgery. I spiked it on a binge.
Came WAY down in 2 months by cutting out all sugar.
Now to stick to this new way of eating and get off the sugar meds.
Hope to live healthier, and longer, but when God wants me, it's my time.

And JEN CARFAGNO on TWC is HOT !

If you can tolerate them, there is a mountain of evidence that they are cardio protective.

I cannot tolerate them. Wish it was different.

You say your HDL is high and LDL low. What is getting your numbers out of whack, triglycerides?
If your total cholesterol is say 215 and your HDLs are 90, I wouldn't worry about it. Of course, I'm not a cardiologist.

A calcium scan might be a real good idea. If that looks good, then carry on with what your doing.

Since you have a baseline you should really get some walnuts and try them.

They work.

A 1/4 cup a day does not cost much and they taste good.

I do not have any walnut trees just pecans but if i could i would have had them here at the house.

They are available at store in the baking isle.

It/s better that statins.

even better in brownies :P

statins again?

hatari, have you tried all of the statins? I took one that basically put me in the bed - walking zombie when I wasn't in bed. We finally settled on Lipitor and it has worked well for me.

All I know is that I have no medical training and my doctor does. Both of them, actually: family and VA. I'll take their advice over that of any internet intern.

I have played around with a number. The smallest dose keeps my numbers perfect, but I get the negative muscle side effects with daily use.

Nobody has mentioned big pharmacy pays Docs for prescribing them?

That seems silly. The advice giver/patient ratio is much higher here.

I was in for my annual physical 3 years ago, I was 65. And my doc said he was going to do a blood test, and "if the numbers are bad" he was going to put me on statins.
And I said "No, you are not going to put me on statins."

He said "If the numbers are bad I certainly will."
And I said, "No, I will not take them."

And that was that. Doc was astonished, this is way out in the country in North Carolina, docs around here are used to being treated like deities.
I worked in a hospital for 14 years and I saw doctors make all kinds of mistakes.

My brother in law took statins for 18 years and they have made him all kinds of sick. Symptoms of Parkinsons. And my sister and he went in to the doc's office 3 times, over the years, and complained about these symptoms, and the doc assured them it was not caused by the statins, and they believed him. They are not skeptical about doctors like I am.
Finally a year ago, they went to a new doctor, a young female MD, and she told them that the Parkinsons symptoms are caused by the statin drugs. This guy is so screwed up he can't work, he can barely walk, or speak a coherent sentence.

A lot of guys on this forum believe everything their doctors tell them. I feel sorry for these guys.

I don't know why you guys are so repulsed by the idea of taking a statin? It doesn't need to be an all or none mega dose. The wife and I both take a generic mini dose of 10 MG every night before bed. My physician sister said to just take a CoQ10 vitamin every morning to counteract any statin side effect with joint pain and I have none. The wife couldn't take her generic Rosuvastatin instead of the way more expensive Crestor until she started taking only 50 MG of the CoQ10. I get my Atorvastatin free because I get another blood pressure med. My last check up 8/19 has my total cholesterol at 121 and my bad LDL down to 55 from 115 10/16. What's it worth to you to not have a coronary event?

That reminds me, Rick Bin needs to add a lettuce hunting forum.

Yes calcification of the artery ----- cholesterol or more accurately calcium cholesterol---- and thats were the walnuts work, they regulate the calcium preventing CaCholesterol

Try Lovaza FDA approved, or high quality fish oil 1000 units, 4 times a day. and MCT oil . its an antidote not an anecdote




In answer to your rhetorical question, No doctors are not paid to prescribe anything. However PBMs at HMO get rebates by covering certain drugs over others.


as with all medical "cures" patient compliance and accepting their responsible in the cure is the biggest problem.

Yep, we get no kickbacks for prescribing meds. Pharma companies cant give us a freaking hamburger, while Congress gets theirs.

Years ago a drug co would host my wife and I for a free eye disease conference at times complete with swanky hotel, dinners, chauffeured limo etc but docs realize real quick their sales reps believe in the spiel they lay on us while we see first hand the results of the meds we prescribe and the tolerance our patients have to those meds.

F Congress.

Etoh, the fish oil is an antidote to high chol/triglycerides or to the negative effects of statins?

Well, that's quite a statement, which goes into the category that ignorance is bliss. I'm just amazed when the general public starts this "Doctors are dumb" stuff when actually they are among the brightest and well trained people on the planet and have guidelines from the absolute best information collected and available. That is not the internet BTW.

Admittedly, some are better than others and the key for any of us as patients is to find someone that you have good rapport with and that you feel they have your best interests in mind.

The idea that Joe the Welder knows more about medicine than his Internist or Cardiologist because he has the internet is just as absurd as the Internist thing they know more about TIG than Joe the Welder. Joe has 30 years and considerable training doing what he does. The standard of care for medicine comes from lots of research and lots of experience. I also have to bang my head on the desk when the non medical know-nothings start telling the world about all the conspiracies that "Big Pharma" has and who they pay off and how everything they have is either placebo or poison. Again, ignorance is bliss sometimes.

My dad and mom used to get taken out to the finest restaurants for three pound lobsters and such by drug reps back in the day. Yeah, they outlawed this practice some years ago.

Really? Are you serious?

I don't for a minute deny that big pharma lies to doctors to get them to prescribe things but to pay them would put both parties in jail under federal law.

I'm also an MD, but I do Neo...
my LDL was high, HDL high, Tris high. Total was about 260... I was recommended statins, I said no, exercised, got down to 199 - 220s... different doc said would marginally improve my cardiac risk. My biggest risk is familial.

I'm 40, lean, exercise, and eat a little better, so <1% risk. No statins, amd doing well.
Good call on your part

You don't understand. I kill the stuff that eats my lettuce.

If any of were to feel symptoms of a heart attack, would we go one here, and ask advise?

Or would we get to a hospital, and a doctor?

I take a statin. Haven't gone crazy and still pretty much do what I want.

I am an expert on my present medical condition. I have fired several specialists for glossing over, forgetting and outright overlooking peripheral issues that accompany my situation.

I get tired of having to remind drs to add 1 or more of a dozen appropriate additional labs to even my expanded panels.

I request 5 day holds on cultures beyond the 48 hour.

I have correctly diagnosed an occluded ureter in my transplant TWO times when the neph was pushing me for a biopsy one time. Another time was correlating an outlying parameter within my therapetic drug monitoring lab (which I also insisted upon) Excessive inability for my transplant to clear the anti rejection med is an indication of hydronephrosis, secondary to occlusion.

Every dr I meet wants to know my educational background, my current docs call me a 1%er. I call many shots and they don't resist me now (at least my current team).

When a dr only spends 4 mins with you in an exam room...red flag. Expect baffoonery.
PCP I have just lets me talk. I really have no use for a PCP, it's purely a formality that go for a lab slip for my dna/hla crossmatching monthly draws.

I scope other patients in the waiting rooms and talk with them, I'm astounded at how uninformed and go along to get along they are aka the Turnip Truck patient.

I have a bigger complaint with the blood pressure medications I take.

And let's acknowledge that most of that drug rep smoozing was "use our __________ (fill in your category of drug i.e Beta Blocker, statin. brand of hydrocodone, etc.) instead of Brand X". In otherwords, the drug version of "Buy a Silverado instead of a F-150". Both are trucks. Lobster was to get them to like the Chevy and recommend that over the Ford.

This is exactly the type of responsibility everyone should take in their own health care.

This might explain things:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/opinion/life-expectancy-united-states.html

Both first thru reduced VLDL synthesis in liver, and second by "trafficking" or reducing NEFA (non essential fatty acids) transport to peripheral areas using them as energy source.

energy production in the liver by the lipid pathway is modified when the ratios are off, resulting in excess of the bad stuff. causing and increase in insulin resistance among other things.

CoQ10 and pantothenic acid also help in reestablishing the "energy" required by the muscles and reducing pain, addition of purines help supply that source for ATP also

Big Pharma doesn't lie to anyone, the FDA protocols are very tough for getting a drug ok'd. There are far to many very informed "specialists" in the various fields to float bullshit past them.

The problem arises simply do to the lack of knowledge across the board. A new drug comes out, gets used by a large enough statistical sampling to provide evidence, new pathways are developed more new medicine.

Because it is very difficult to assign a specific pharmacological cause-effect relationship between a medicine and the event, the concept of single entity drugs became popular in the late 60s and dominates medical practice protocol.

This means if a practitioner gives a blood pressure med, they want to see the pressure drop, right now, and by a predictable amount.

This takes a very "strong" drug in the sense it will be working on many other organs in the body. The question then becomes one of "therapeutic range". At what dose level will the side effects become such that the med represents more of a hazard than a medicine.

(all drugs, medicines are Poisons)

What a bullshit article. 20% of all adolescence in US are pre-diabetic caused by the time frame when Obama was in office

How about 4 months no bp meds, and I was 123/76 just now, and my morning sugar was a 93 !
Diet, excercise, and weight loss.
By God, I'm going to live forever !!

3 months, and 1 week to go, as per my doc to be released to go back to work from back surgery !!

If it hasn't yet been said, Statins likely provide cardiovascular protective effects independent of their LDL-lowering effects.


https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circresaha.116.308537

Luckily, Alcon had the best eye disease drugs. It is disturbing that getting the govt to pay for certain drugs on Medicare plans effectively shuts other great drugs out of the market and doomed or at least relegated to the back shelf. Insurance companies are the same. If they dont cover the best drug its screwed

Palms are greased in Govt and Ins companies. There ought to be a law.

The post below is state of the art for 1978 but completely wrong today. Some studies show either no benefit from taking statins, while others show an extremely small benefit. The lipid-heart hypothesis has been completely debunked. Inflammation caused by eating processed foods is what causes heart disease, not cholesterol. And recent studies show a strong connection between higher cholesterol levels and longer life. No study has shown causation between cholesterol levels and coronary artery disease, but causation has been shown between inflammation and coronary artery disease. Since the McGovern report (early 1980s), the government and the medical profession have been giving us not just bad advice for 40 years, but absolutely harmful advice.

Here is some support for those who still believe the lipid-heart lie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inwfSkSGvQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0

I recently had a minor heart attack while working out at the gym. At 58 I was fit, active and had little reason to expect trouble. The only clouds on the horizon were a history of living and working with heavy smokers, low HDL and some distant family history of heart disease. I ignored those signals and that did not work out too well for me … nor will it work out for those of you reading this who are prone to wishful thinking.

This forum is the wrong place to seek advice on health issues (or any other issue for that matter). Seek out qualified health professionals and listen to them.

I speak from experience when I say that a quad bypass surgery will get your attention.

Yea, Big Pharma does lie to physicians like when they said Oxycontin wasn't that addictive. Maybe you didn't get that news. Then there was the Flexeril affair. Flexeril was about to go off patent; that is the dosage form of 10 mg three times daily. Suddenly the drug company came out with a new dosage form; 5 mg three times daily which they said would work just as well with less sedation and thus extended their patent. But wait, it gets better. When asked, why couldn't a patient just cut the cheaper 10 mg tablet in half, the drug rep said that wouldn't be safe because one half of the tablet might have more Flexeril in it than the other half.

And I could go on.

In my opinion all drugs are poisons but sometimes, perhaps from poor lifestyle choices, they're needed. I would rather eliminate poor habits and thus save money and my health.

There is a saying, "the newest drug has the fewest side effects."

yes brought up in the 2nd really long thread awhile back. anti-inflammatory effects reducing dementia

Could go with a lengthy on Statics, and the references in NCBI, and PLOS but I think it would be a waste of time.

In one of your former incarnations (before you started sharing this account), "Paddler" *was* a physician. Now you quote the NY Times?
Credibility gap here is "incredible".

you obviously didn't get the news. Pharm has never said Oxy was not addicting. Its the diversion of the drug from legitimate channels that is causing the problem. (even then its not as insidious as drug cartels)

Please quote name of drug rep, yea thats what I thought.
The reason tablets are not recommended to be cut is in their manufacture the pressure used to make the tablet also makes it difficult to cut, they usually shatter or cut unevenly. if the mg base of the drug is high say around 100 mg the amount lost in curmbled powder is insignificant. if small as in the case Flexeril it matters.

Im sure you could go on. but it is good that you have put some thought into it.

Yes

why no quotes or reference from peer group evaluation sites?

Whoever Paddler is (*are* - probably shared account), he is no medico as once claimed.

His bullschitt article from Paul Krugman (of all people) about Red State mortality has a very simple demographic expalination that has nothing to do with politics. African Americans have a high rate of heart disease and diabetes. SInce the South is composed of Red States, all you do is need to do is look at a graphic that shows county by county morbidity and mortality from those two diseases and you will have no problem picking out the old cotton belt from Virginia south and west right into Louisiana. You can talk about poverty all you want, but singularly the most important demographic factor is that those areas are predominatly African American. Diet, exercise and genetic predisposition covers most of that ground.

Dear Sir:

Here is current news from the Florida Medical Association:

"However, in 1996 the American Pain Society trademarked the slogan, “Pain: The Fifth Vital Sign,” and we then saw OxyContin® released by Purdue Pharma. In the late 1990s, pharmaceutical companies continued to reassure the medical community that patients would not become addicted to opioid pain relievers. This resulted in increased prescribing of opioid medications, leading to widespread misuse of both prescription and non-prescription opioids before it became clear that these medications could be highly addictive in many individuals."

And you really expect me to remember the name of the drug rep that spoke on Flexeril probably around 2014? You flatter me. As for not being able to cut a 10 mg Flexeril tablet in half, I'll bet around 99.99% of those on the Campfire would be able to figure out how to do it.

Then here is part of a blurb from the 9/11/19 issue of The Washington Post:

"Purdue Pharma, manufacturer of the blockbuster painkiller OxyContin, reached a tentative settlement Wednesday with 23 states and more than 2,000 cities and counties that sued the company over its role in the opioid crisis, according to attorneys involved in the deal."

Way off topic but answering some of this to show how shiit gets put in the wrong pigeon holes .


ridiculous article, morphine alkaloids have always been known to be addictive. They also have a very low side effect profile compared to --- oh what hmmm shall we say statins.


on the rep, you said he said nothing but here say.

tablets are not recommended to be divided unless they are scored by the entire dispensing community Ok tell me you have a Class A prescription balance or an analytical balance or the members here could just weigh it on their powder scales.
hint. cutting of tablets in the micro milligram range would cause death.

oxycodone is produced by many makers and generic drug makers, by the tons and still is. how come they aren't included in the law suit?

The reason is because schedule II drugs have their own forms for ordering with multiple copies, one goes to DEA, one to wholesaler or maker, one is kept. one is made into paper airplane (just kidding)

maker is required to notify DEA when unusual amounts are order from one source. the dispensers in Tennessee, (which has different laws than the rest of country on mail order drugs). Purdue was found negligent and the rest of the pharmacies and docs. in Tennessee got off because they had their ducks inline.


also all states require month end down loads of all schedule drugs dispensed, to compare for "shoppers" this was not started until about 2010,


for every "Blockbuster Oxycontin" used or dispensed their are 10 Lortab, or 10 times as many nontime release oxycodone used.

The respiratory depression side effect of narcotics only became an issue when some liberal politician's kid died with an overdose, same thing happened when HIPPA laws got passed.

So now you can get naloxone to reverse the symptoms.

Whether a drug addict is worth saving or not is up to the individual.

Truly, if you live forever, it will definitely be by God and His grace.

I know !!!

None of us are getting out of this alive.

You are confused about a few things:

1. Regarding hearsay: "In addition to the three most common exceptions for hearsay, there are several other statements that generally will be accepted as admissible evidence." One of these is "medical statements that are made to a medical provider for the purpose of diagnosis or treatment." By that definition, a drug rep telling a provider something for the purpose of treatment would be considered admissable evidence.

2. You apparently forgot you said drug companies didn't lie and may have missread the "ridiculous article" that came from a very reputable source. According to that source Purdue Pharma did practice deception in the marketing of OxyContin. Said source also confirmed that experts were apparently duped.

3. I can believe you wouldn't be able to cut a 10 mg Flexeril tablet in half, that's why I said 99.99% on the Campfire could probably do it. I was leaving just a little room for those who couldn't. Think carefully about this. If 10 mg of Flexeril three times daily is well tolerated could it really hurt if one of your "halfs" was just a little different than the other one? Do you think a "micro milligram" difference "would cause death?"

4. Actually some states require reporting of some controlled drugs within 24 hours or weekly.

regarding lurker

let me clear up your continued confusion beside s the biggest one of being off topic

drug reps are not licensed to give medical statements, they only get to say what they were told in their sales meetings.


unless the the magazine was an official publication of a legal entity, such as a state licensing office it just another rag like the Journal of the AMA etc. none of these are quoted in the profession as first line reference.

your didn't read my post. to repeat-- it is standard practice in the field of pharmacy not to recommend cutting tablets unless they are scored,/ Think careful now and take your finger out of your nose. Flexeril came out as a 5 because the drug in 10 mg dose was out in a generic. This would make it a "new" dosage form and non substitutable. Im sure people were cutting them in half.
If you can cut 100 tablets into equal doses I will give you the idiot award of the year for wasting your time doing it.

Actually do don't know [bleep] about how controlled drugs are controlled.

Grum

please address the dispensing of tons of oxy still be used not associated with Purdue.

bet you didn't know cyclobenzaprine was also used as an antipsychotic, (same family as try-cyclic antidepressants) and was used more for this off label than as a muscle relaxer.