Where does it come from?

How big is the hole it came out of?

Will the planet collapse into that hole?

And will they ever just mine midwestern roadsides for salt?

Illinois roads look like they already do...

Gus?

Comes from Siberia - they sent my grampaw there for moonshining twice .

No...
Serious question... Sorta?

Figure how many cubic yards of the stuff gets dumped on roads every year.

No salt mined near me that I'm aware of?

I remember a while back some guys getting trapped in a salt mine. New York Maybe???

Road Salt !!!!!

Wiki;
''Bull sharks can thrive in both salt and brackish water and can travel far up rivers due too high levels of ''''road salt''''. They have been known to travel up the Mississippi River as far as Alton, Illinois, about 700 miles (1100 km) from the ocean .''

I pondered it myself John - the county i'm from in sw ohio has mountains of it piled up in reserve for winter every year . So ? there has a be some big empty salt mines somewhere .

Its mined in various places I used to work in road maintenance. The winning bidder on contracts in BC was usually either from Mexico or Saskatchewan. Mexico barged it up, Saskatchewan sent it on a train. Various places in Central America have lots too but transportation that far away gets spendy. They're basically mining ancient salt lake bottoms long dried up. There is no foreseeable shortage the world has oodles of it. Africa has insanely huge deposits,

some states mine it out of saltpeter mines...

that is the reason those states have a lot of flat tires in winter each year on their highways...

I think I have this straight, in Canada Winsor Salt is, or was big. They mine under one of the Great Lakes, the salt is run over screens to size it for different uses.

There are some salt domes in Louisiana. Years ago Texaco was drilling and punched into one that had been mined and the lake drained into the salt dome
Avery Island where they make Tobasco is on a salt dome.

They use salt to make chlorine.

I believe the Magnesium Chloride used comes outta Utah? Naturally occuring. I dunno where the Calcium magnesium acetate comes from?

Doesn't it pollute the environment laying down all that salt year after year?

Yer up on me Bob, I don't know what they are!

There is a huge deposit that runs from western NYS over into Michigan. There are several mines here in NY, the oldest (Watkins Glen NY) has been in place over a century. That plant uses steam to extract, and the re-crystalizes the stuff. Most of the other mines use underground extraction, they dig it out, then convey it to the surface.

RIchard. Those are the two deicers we used extensively here. We only resorted to regular salt when we had run out of everything else. Those two above mentioned product were suppose to not be as corrosive as reg salt. I always had my doubts. Mag chloride imho was better of two for deicing. Probably too expensive to use in your environs. Thats why salt is popular

Bob, somewhere there is what farmers call chloride for tractor tire fluid weight, ballast. I think that is what you call mag chloride.

I take that back, calcium chloride is tractor tire fluid.

Mag chloride can be applied as granule or liquid. We used our herbicide sprayer trucks to apply it. Especially on elevated roadways or bridges. With Mag chloride you have to spray and get traffic on it. Most drivers believed that since we sprayed the roads they can still do 70 mph on it. They found out different. Then LEO would close a road because said dolt bought 250’ of guardrail. Doing his job. After the city opened a combined commo center that all got a lot better. I or my coworker was setting right across table from a LEO contact. And we have multiple roadway cams on trouble locales. Things got lots better. Austin PD organized an expressway section. Worked nothing but major hwys. Those guys were phenominal! We worked very well together.

Our county roads foreman showed me a sample of a byproduct of distilling corn into ethanol they were boosting as a deicer, I don't know how that paned out?

Yeah. Lots have changed since I retired. I dunno what all is used now. My info is dated I’m sure. They may have an all new strategy now with a vast aray of products! I know some places were installing deicing systems on roadways like an irrigation system. On a different note I appreciate the lighted traffic buttons on I-70 west of Denver! They are nice.

Syracuse a.k.a. Salt City. Quite valuable real estate in the early days for the salt springs. So salt on the roads is a sort of recycling. And they use plenty. First place I heard the term "winter rat." Keep your nice car garaged and drive a rust bucket in winter. Or next winter your nice car will have become a winter rat. One spring day I had to drive to Camillus. Roads clear all the way but could see white when I got to Camillus. WTF? Yup salt. Getting rid of the leftover from winter I guessed.

Trivia: Salt shipped to NYC on the canal system would get chunky from the humidity. The most menial of menial jobs was knocking it apart for the shakers. Hence the dismissive term, "Go pound salt." NOT pound sand - pet peeve.

And just think.......... Depending on where you grew up, some people don't even know what road salt really is. Because they don't even know what rock salt is, because they've never heard of it or seen it. Many years ago I was talking to some girls in a bar in the San Joaquin valley in California. The topic got to be winter and they were asking me about the snow and winter in general in western NY state. Told them all about it and when I got to talking about snow plows and spreading salt on the roads a couple of them called B.S. on me. Turns out they never even heard of rock salt and when they heard the word "salt"; it meant table salt because that's the only salt they ever saw or heard of. I still chuckle at them imagining a 10 wheel dump with a salt spreader on the back filled with umpteen tons of table salt. Of course we were all imbibing at the time but it was still hilarious.

Even though it is a by-product, just think of all the people who are starving because they used the corn for that. (Not to mention all the widows and orphans who are starving because of the way that it cuts into petroleum profits.)

All the deicers are hard on fenders.

Hate to damage a good Stratocaster.

Remember that bad river bridge failure in what Minneapolis (?) few years back??? That was attributed to roadway salt as the primary cause if I remember correctly. Bridge inspector s should have caught that one. . Got in expansion joints and other metal structure. We had a bridge failure somewhere out west around Ft. Stockton (I believe) on I-10 few years back. Wasn’t as catastrophic.

Beet juice when it is really cold.

I35 West - we were on a fly-in in Canada when it happened. Heard about it when we came out. We had crossed it the week before. One of my son's college friends drove it twice a day and had gone over it not long before it went down.

I'm told salt will not thaw ice below 10F.

Something like that. We used to keep magnesium chloride deicer for the entrance way for extra cold days. The previous maintenance guy used all magnesium chloride stuff, dyed a nice green. The salesman loved him. Is easier on the cement (less freeze-thaw) and grass though.

They've been pretreating the MD roads with a 22 percent salt and 78 percent water mixture. Does seem to make a big difference in giving them time to plow and it reduced the state budget and use of granular salt by more than 50%.

Good for the budget and environment. Of course, we don't get a huge amount of snow here close to the bay.

Thanks! I thought it was a I-35 structure. Hard to imagine that many of the structures on the Interstate hwy system are 50-60 years old now. Some have been replaced some havent. They are showing their age.

Our last governor and his brother owned a chain of truck stop/gas stations that had drive through car washes. We salted the chit outta everything when he was in charge.

Same guy bought I don't know how many pails of "As Seen On TV" magic drain cleaner. Not as bad as lye but the plumber threatened not to work on plugs with any chemical cleaner. Pails of the stuff are still in the basement for all I know.

Primary concern for us was closed roadways = Lost revenue on all fronts. Time loss= big $$$$. The $$$ figures were pretty staggering. Always about da money. 😁Oh well, not gonna worried over it now. 👍👍👍

There's a huge salt mine under Lake Erie.

http://www.rockthelake.com/buzz/2017/12/cargill-salt-mine-cleveland/

The term salary derives from salt Some soldiers were paid with salt. "Worth his salt."

ha hahaa - funny ...

empty salt domes are used to store a lot of crude oil, Strategic Petroleum Reserve

The Quapaw of Southern Arkansas and northern Louisiana and other northern Louisiana Caddoan groups were bigtime salt traders. They pretty much had themselves a good monopoly going!

Worked out well for the Onondagas in Syracuse too.

Out West, most of the road treatment comes from the Salt Lake in Utah. They pump lake water out into huge evaporating ponds during the summer and let the sun concentrate the brine. It naturally contains Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Chloride, and I would think a little Sodium Chloride.

No [bleep] Sherlock!

Science Daily

No one cares though as long as they don't have to slow down because the roads are icy.


Jerry

LOL!!!! Yup! Reminds me of the time I had to meet our environmental guys and the Texas Dept of Env quaility guys out at the world famous I-35 and McNeil overpass in Round Rock Texas concering disposal of literally a mountain of bat guano. All washing down the gutter into Lake Creek. I asked them why I had to report to them a 5 gallon diesel spill and do a env clean up on it when all this high nitrate guano was washing into a primary water shed???? They told me to shut up and NEVER bring that subject up again!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 They were very serious!

Edit! There BIGGEST concern was that we had “Do not touch or handle dead bats” signs posted all over the place in english and spanish. Seriously!!!! Came to find out that was the only reason for my being there.

I’m not Gus, but was in the road salt business before retiring.
There is a 400 million year old ( give or take a few weeks) dried up sea bed under the NE USA and part of Ontario. It’s under Ohio, Mich, Ontario and NY. And it stretches up to New Brunswick. The depth of that salt bed varies but is about 1500-2000 feet below the surface. That salt is mined by multiple methods. For road salt mine shafts are dug and the the salt is mined by drilling holes into the salt seam, filling them with explosives, blowing it up, them crushing and screening to make a certain size. In some cases, the horizontal mining tunnels reach several miles under Lake Erie, or some of the NY finger lakes. This salt is not pure enough for table salt, when mined by drill and blast. This same salt is however mined for human consumption by evaporative methods. In this case 12” or so holes are bored into the salt deposit from the surface. Hot water is pumped into the salt deposit. The water dissolves some creating salt brine. That is pumped to the surface. Then the water is evaporated off and you’re left with very pure salt. There are some more processes to get it to the right gradual size for human consumption but that’s the gist of it.
There are also drill and blast and evaporative mines in central Kansas, but they are only about 600 feet deep. And there are mines in Louisiana along the coast. The salt deposits there are domes, or more of a vertical deposit vs horizontal in the NE USA. And there are evaporative plant there as well.
In Utah, there is a third mining process, called solar evap. Here Salt Lake water is pumped into a shallow pond. The wind and sun evaporate some of the water increasing the salt concentration. Then that brine is bumped through a sequence of ponds until it essentially solidifies. It is then scraped up and is used for water softening and very small amounts in table salt.
That’s the high level over view of where road salt and other salt come from.

Well its all about concentration. If you look at steep hills on mountain passes in the summer you'll see next to no vegetation close to the shoulder of the road as its been pounded with salt all winter. Get out 20 feet or so and everything looks normal. Small water courses are vulnerable though you don't want to run a downspout collecting road water right in to a little crick. Most fresh water fish and some aquatic creatures can't handle much salt, they'll die. So you see on newer highways there'll be settling ponds thick with bull rushes to deconcentrate the salt before it gets into a creek or river.

Best thing that's happened in the last.. I don't know maybe 25 years is the use of brine. Someone mentioned it back there very simple just dump a bunch of salt in a tank with water and mix it up good and spray it out the back of a truck. Had it figured that roughly a third salt was needed to cover a given distance with brine vs dry salt. Way more efficient you don't get trucks blowing it off the road so much. Brine is only good though for treating for black ice or before a snow storm. Once you're in the thick of it in a snow storm you gotta kick it old school and put out sand or better sand mixed with about 3% salt, or if its warm enough straight dry salt. Salt reliably works to about -4C I'd say anything colder than about -6C (about 20 F) and you can forget about salt. In fact it can work against you, melting a bit then freezing. Mag Chloride and some other chemicals will work colder but a lot more expensive and probably a little more nasty on the environment.

We got some dirt trucked in that was dug up to widen a highway, it has some limerock in it. Any place we have used it not much but weeds will grow. I wonder about salt.

Too much lime could be the deal too? some plants like alkaline soil some hate it.

Your were saying back there Wabi that Windsor salt is big around the great lakes, yes they're huge. They seem to be more higher end products AFAIK, table salt and small bags for your driveway at the hardware store etc. For industrial use Lafarge the concrete company is in to salt in a big way around here.

I don't much care where any of it comes from but I think a bunch of it should be dissolved in water and used to give a high pressure enema to those who further it's use. I hate it. I hate that billions of dollars are spent sprerading it on highways just so a bunch of shivering puzzies can get out on the road. It eats up my vehicles. It attracts deer, elk, and sheep to the highway where they get hit by the aforementioned drivers. Where we would otherwise be driving on compacted snow or ice, we are driving on three inches of slimy, briny, dirty, slush. Out on the prairies, before the use of salt became widespread, the snow mostly blew off the roads. Sometime in the '70's some jurisdictions started salting the intersections and, on the highway, those were the only places where the snow built up. The answer, of course. was to put more salt there so the snow would build up deeper. In the late '70's, Alberta saw a huge influx of people from Ontario and they brought their salt with them. The bastards. GD

If "they" and "we" decided to stop using salt we'd get by for sure. Fatal car crash numbers with today's traffic volumes and speeds would go through the roof though. It is what it is. I hate salt on roads too but I'm glad we have it.

I'm a bridge engineer responsible for maintenance on state roadways. We call it bridge remover. Nothing is as detrimental to the integrity of structural components as salt, brine and calcium chloride. The past cpuple of winter seasons have been mild for us so the amount of salt put down has been minimal to the norm. It does a good job in keeping roads clear but is hell on equipment and steel.

It keeps you in business though don't it 'Grad

I agree its pure hell on bridges man there's no two ways about it. Highway 5 near here was constructed in 1986 through the Cascades into the interior of BC. It was a huge economic advantage in many ways, its busy hauling most of the freight in and out of Vancouver from points east and saving hours from the old route. These days every summer one or more of the many bridges are a big construction zone as they pretty much rebuild them from the abutments and piers up. Rusted re-bar sticking out of the concrete lumps that are broken up and hauled away. Bridges don't last long up there and it co$t$ big time. Yep no one hates salt more than bridge guys....

Business is too busy sometimes because of it. The problem is that due to being elevated, bridges are where you need salt the most to lower the freezing point.
Thankfully I'm in central NC which is fairly mild but the guys in the mountains and those down east with salt spray have it rougher than we do. Best thing we have done is moved away from steel girders towards concrete precast girders and box beams where possible. Elastomeric bearing plates too. Sometimes steel is inevitable due to required span lengths but most of our new bridges are concrete. Is it the right call long term? That has yet to be determined but as long as you keep the chlorides out of the concrete through sealers/epoxy treatments, they seem to be better from what I can tell. Steel decks and girders cause us more headaches than about anything other than timber....still a lot of timber decks, abutment and substructure out there.

Ever watch "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel? They did an hour-long episode on "Salt", and besides the aforementioned salt in NYS, there's also a huge deposit under Kansas, too. The TV show actually went into how they got out table salt, road salt, etc. Yeah, I was REALLY bored when I watched that, but it turned out to be halfway interesting.

I live about 10 miles south of the Salt River in Kentucky, where apparently there was a nearby salt lick that contaminated the river enough to give it that name. Kentucky has a lot of salt licks, there's probably some salt underground here, too.

I can't remember if this mine is the same, or if not there is another if it hasn't been flooded that's under Erie that was owned by Morton. They were having a lot of water problems. Many, many pumps totaling thousands of horsepower running daily to keep the water out.
I used to work for the company that made the "crusher feeder breaker" that the narrator in the above link speaks of.

There also one or more mines of this type in the New Iberia, Avery Island area of La. One is gone though.. Remember when an oil exploration Co. was drilling in the bottom of a lake in La. & drilled into a mine? What a mess.

Long term effect on enemies during war - salt the fields.

They used to Mike, for 75 years the best thing that can happen to a country is for the US to defeat them in war.

Not to sidetrack.

More than you really want to know about “salt”


SEE OUR LIST OF DE-ICERS, ALONG WITH THE PROS AND CONS OF EACH OPTION



Understanding the characteristics of various types of de-icing agents can make all the difference in efficiently reducing the amount of snow and ice around your building. Rock salt is the most commonly used and well-known de-icer; however, there are a range of other formulas and products that can be more effective under certain conditions.

When choosing a de-icer, consider the climate in your area, since different chemicals have different working temperatures. You should also research whether the de-icer will damage concrete, pavement, railings or other structures and carpets. Additionally, it's important to be aware of the environmental impact of the de-icer that you choose, since some are very harmful to the environment.

There is no one-size-fits-all de-icer, as Ross Alger, director of the Institute for Snow Research at Michigan Technological University, tella Mother Earth News: "Out of all the products I've looked at, there's no one magical chemical. There are positives and negatives to each. Any time you put something into the environment, you face detrimental effects."

So, make sure you know the differences between de-icing agents before you make a final decision.

Here are the pros and cons of several de-icers to help you select the best one:

Sodium chloride

Pros: NaCl is also known as rock salt. It is the most commonly used de-icing chemical, with 10 to 14 million tons of it used yearly in the US and Canada, according to the University of Nebraska - Lincoln. It is the cheapest de-icer, generally priced at $10 or less per 50 pounds. It is effective between 15 and 20 degrees Fahrenheit.

Cons: Rock salt is harmful to both physical structures and materials and the environment. It can damage concrete, asphalt, stone and brick, and should not be used on concrete that is less than a year old. According to Mother Earth News, even small amounts of NaCl can leach into nearby soil, changing its composition and harming grass and plants. It can also contaminate groundwater and is lethal to pets.

Calcium chloride

Pros: CaCl has a melting temperature of -10 degrees Fahrenheit and gives off heat as it melts, which makes it work faster than other de-icers. It also has a lower environmental impact than other chemicals. It comes in liquid form, as well as in flakes and pellets.

Cons: Calcium chloride damages carpets and tiles and corrodes metal. It is less harmful to plants than other chemicals, but it can damage them with over-application.

Potassium chloride

Pros: Potassium chloride, or KCl, is similar to potassium-based fertilizer formulas and is touted as being beneficial to plant health, according to the University of Nebraska–Lincoln. It is more environmentally friendly and safer for pets, except those with kidney diseases.

Cons: It has a higher working temperature, at 25 degrees Fahrenheit. It is more expensive, priced at $20 and above per 50 pounds. Potassium chloride can also be hard to find on its own, and is more often found in de-icing blends.

Magnesium chloride

Pros: MgCl is effective at -13 degrees Fahrenheit and is minimally damaging to the environment. It is very fast-acting and more effective at de-icing than rock salt.

Cons: Over-application can damage plants. It corrodes metal and draws moisture from air. If too much moisture is drawn, it can keep pavement wet.

Calcium magnesium acetate

Pros: Calcium magnesium acetate is very effective for concrete-heavy areas that cannot suffer any damage, such as parking garages. It is less corrosive than chloride-based products, is biodegradable and will not harm the environment when used in small amounts.

Cons: CMA is one of the most expensive de-icing chemicals and can cost 30 times more than rock salt. It can also make pavement slippery, and, since it is bought in solid form and then liquefied prior to application, it can refreeze.

Urea

Pros: This nitrogen-based salt is as cheap as sodium chloride and has a minimal effect on plants and grass. It is also non-corrosive and safer around pets, and it is frequently used by gardeners.

Cons: The University of Nebraska–Lincoln notes that nitrogen-based salts are usually avoided because of the potential of runoff into water sources, and that in many areas this salt is not approved for de-icing.

Potassium acetate

Pros: It has a freeze point of -76 degrees Fahrenheit and is a high-performing de-icer. It is also biodegradable and non-corrosive. Potassium acetate is safer than salt for steel-heavy areas and structures, and it is used for airports and other major facilities.

Cons: While minimally environmentally damaging, it can reduce oxygen levels in water. It is also one of the higher priced de-icers, along with calcium magnesium acetate.

Sand

Pros: Although sand does not melt ice, it is a popular choice for making roads, parking lots and walkways less slippery. It is non-corrosive and is cheap and easy to find.

Cons: Sand accumulates, clogging storm drains and sometimes causing flooding. After winter ends and the sand has dried, it can create problems with dust. Also, sand can build up in bodies of water, brining contaminants with it and burying plants and organisms at the bottom.

Brine or Beet Juice

Pros: Some say beet juice or pickle brine is quicker and less toxic for melting ice on roads, etc. It also has less of an impact on the environment, as it's made from natural materials. It can lower the melting point of water to as low as -20 degrees F.

Cons: The downside to using beet juice to melt ice is that if it makes its way into streams, its sugars can attract germs that feed on the oxygen in water that many animals need to survive.


https://www.dudesolutions.com/blog/pros-and-cons-of-different-de-icers

Years back I thought I was smart to use rock salt to deice our sidewalk, and concreate step.

That stuff can be dangerous - not just used as intended either. I'm convinced moose like those roadsides partially because the vegetation is enriched by road "salt" and those things are a road hazard!

Up here, when they are spraying liquid on the roads, we refer to it as "icing the highway".

One year we had a 18 month old bull moose in the neighborhood. We named him "Ornery", because he was. At one time or another, nearly everyone was charged. Me, two different incidents.

I stepped out the door one morning to go to town to find him licking my F150 tailgate. No problem I thought- I'd just get in and drive away- hell- he's a good 12 feet away. He charged.

Inside, I dug out my wrist rocket and the biggest piece of split shot I could readily find and went back out. When he came at me again, I nailed him in the end of his nose, full draw, at about 10 feet. Apparently they are sensitive there!

I then went to town.

A couple months later I was out on the carport banging rivets on my boat with Ornery bedded down on the driveway some 40 yards away. I looked up to see him coming hard, and beat him to the door by inches. He actually stood there with his face pressing the glass, glaring at me. Guess he didn't like loud sounds while trying to sleep.... I had my Pentax SLR on the upper deck stairs , which he knocked off onto the concrete car port and broke, coming after me at the door.

I think my neighbor ate him shortly after that, tho it was months to moose season yet.

Plastic buckshot for the shotgun, or marbles in the wrist rocket are your huckleberries.

I need Arizona, the salt we use is from a mine in central Utah.

While road salts are bad for metal vehicles, abrasives like sand or cinders aren't without consequences either. They end up in washes and streams, altering stream hydrology.

Regarding the bridges, many of the older bridges were constructed with uncoated rebar, and road salts got into the rebar, causing deck failures. Also got in to the superstructure causing damage. Modern bridges are built with epoxy coated rebar and super structures made with different steel alloys and designs to better withstand road salts.

Nature tries hard to get back what man makes, nature wins in time.

They epoxy coat the beam ends even on what is called weathering (untreated) steel. Inevitable joint failures result in salt eating the beam ends. We even go to the effort of pressure washing the beam ends after the winter season when budget allows. Salt = bridge remover, plain and simple. Nasty stuff. As far as decks, they do use epoxy rebar which helps, but there "should" be enough cover over the concrete to prevent infiltration on newer decks. Older decks have less cover on average due to loss of wearing surface and poor workmanship back then, plus you can run into poor consolidation of the concrete itself. One thing is for sure, we see all kinds of stuff which keeps it interesting.

The alternative would be to learn to drive on ice. It wasn't necessary to build an infrastructure that favoured long commutes over living near your employment but that is what we have done over the last fifty years. Now we have to try and keep the incompetent safe. Crap. GD

Pressure washing, that's done annually here to try to prolong the inevitable. Its built right in to the maintenance contracts every bridge, every year, must be washed no ifs ands or buts. Its a big job and gets complicated with environmental rules. A lot of them out here are hanging over salmon spawning streams so its timed in the spring to be done around the best time frame when there's no salmon spawning and no fish hatching. Usually in April. Its a very busy time for the bridge guys there's a ton of bridges to be done in a short time frame. In May a lot of the streams are loaded with salmon fry so its a no go. March is too early generally still sanding and salting going on up high. A lot of them need piping rigged up to the drains or tarps to keep the wash water from directly entering the creek or river as well.

I agree greydog. I think unfortunately that bus left 30 years ago I can't see them going back to not using it. Especially around with high traffic.

Salt degrades concrete as well as steel.

Sounds like road salt is almost as destructive as Daylight Savings Time

https://www.detroitnews.com/picture...salt-mine-city-beneath-city/4523991002/?

They use a brine solution here.
It sticks to the road, can be put down up to 3 days before
A snow and still be effective. Can even withstand some rain.

However, I have been on the limited access roads behind the application.
And it's still wet.

Now tell me,
If this [bleep] can stand cars running over it, for days during rain.

How could you possibly wash it out of the nooks and crannies
under a car? You know, those places that are the first t o rust out
anyway.


The Pa Turnpike is one of the biggest users of salt per mile in the
country. Sitting here about 3/8 of a mile away, I can hear the trucks
going down the ridge. We had a water tester come test for hardness.
She saw the ro ad and ask if it was the turnpike, the said
"Since you are so close, I'll test for salt. It's not a problem in this
area, unless you are close the turnpike. But, they deny having caused
it."

I have 3 times the recommeded salt in my water.