Down at the club I was having a conversation with a "Book Smart" reloader. I mentioned that my one deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser Remington 700. The response was "weak", "can do better than that.
The thing is I'm not using a book load. I'm not using a load that some developer might think could get dropped into a rolling block. I'm using 47.2 grains of R17 with a Federal 205 and 154 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I'm running right at 2800fps with no stress on the rifle or brass. Formally I had used IMR 4350 that I built up in the same way. That nips the heels of a 280. Only one of the 11 deer I killed with that rifle went over 50 yards and that was because I hit him a bit too far back (back of one lung angled through the center of the opposite). Angles through the chest and through the shoulder I never recovered a single bullet. One, face on shot, I recovered from the front of the hip muscles. That retained 138 grains.
The difference is in reading and understanding. Knowing rifle strength, case capacity and what many people disregard, case design.I use Winchester brass and I dissected a 280 case and a 7x57 case. I found no difference in the case head of the 7x57 and the 280, but then again I didn't think I would.
Now tell me, what in the eastern United States that would not kill cleanly. Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load.
A lot of folks like the 223 for big game. So I guess your bordering on a dangerous game rifle. Hasbeen
My experience with the 7X57 is somewhat limited, although I have used one in the past to kill a few deer with, a Model 70. I used IMR 4350, a load recommended by Jim Carmichael, that was max as far as I was concerned. If I remember correctly, it chronographed at about 2850 with a 140 grain bullet. It was a good deer killer. My son used a 7X57 that I'd put together on a 98 Mauser action, and I loaded for it with a little less powder, same 140 grain bullet. It was a deer killer as well.
Down at the club I was having a conversation with a "Book Smart" reloader. I mentioned that my one deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser Remington 700. The response was "weak", "can do better than that.
The thing is I'm not using a book load. I'm not using a load that some developer might think could get dropped into a rolling block. I'm using 47.2 grains of R17 with a Federal 205 and 154 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I'm running right at 2800fps with no stress on the rifle or brass. Formally I had used IMR 4350 that I built up in the same way. That nips the heels of a 280. Only one of the 11 deer I killed with that rifle went over 50 yards and that was because I hit him a bit too far back (back of one lung angled through the center of the opposite). Angles through the chest and through the shoulder I never recovered a single bullet. One, face on shot, I recovered from the front of the hip muscles. That retained 138 grains.
The difference is in reading and understanding. Knowing rifle strength, case capacity and what many people disregard, case design.I use Winchester brass and I dissected a 280 case and a 7x57 case. I found no difference in the case head of the 7x57 and the 280, but then again I didn't think I would.
Now tell me, what in the eastern United States that would not kill cleanly. Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load.
i live in the southwest. 2800fps and a 150grain bullet have killed a lot of elk.
You can't let the know it alls do your thinking for you. Use what works for you and gives you the confidence to take the shot. Loading discussions and shooting ranges can be great, but they can also be a real PITA.
That’s way plenty of gun for deer and pigs!
Karamojo Bell killed elephants with a 7 X 57. He waited for the right shot to present itself and put a bullet down the ear canal into the brain. I believe he was using a heavy round nosed solid bullet.
Jerry
Some loads just seem to kill especially well and that's what I've heard from others about the 7X57. I have a Ruger .270 that for some reason is slow even with a slightly over max load of 7828. It shoots the outdated 150 Win. power point at around 2750fps but seems unusually deadly on large hogs. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. As to the 7X57 on elk, well the .243 W is used on elk.
I could have killed most deer with a 22lr. And would have if legal.
That said you can't just assume pressure is safe vs speed. I mean you can find load data for modern rifles and speed is relevant to pressure every time.
Even a milder loaded x57 will kill stuff all day long.
The fascination with another 100 or 150 FPS never ceases to amaze me. Had one friend pushed a 25-06. He loaded "safe" but hot ammo. Eventually the lugs beat the recesses back enough he could not unlock the bolt. We had to remove the barrel. Safe. I'd say not. Lucky is more like it.
Getting same speed as cartridges with more powder capacity for the most part is scary to me.
My long range plan for hunting rifles in my elder years when I can no longer (or want to) tolerate recoil is a 7x57 and a .257 Roberts, both of which I own. Happy Trails
It is true that some cartridges are loaded to be safe in the weakest firearm likely to be used. It is also true that without pressure measuring equipment, you never really know if your "off book" load is truly safe. Or you've just been lucky so far.
Don't claim to be an expert, but...
If you were to bring this up in the Big Game Reloading subforum rather than here in the nut house, you'd find that many of us regularly use 7mm-08 data as a guide for modern 7x57's. Alliant indicates 44 gr of RL17 for 2669 fps so you are pushing it beyond wisdom, you really should tone it down or switch powders.
But it is anything but weak, your acquaintance knows less than he thinks.
A lot of folks like the 223 for big game. So I guess your bordering on a dangerous game rifle. Hasbeen
Now to be serious.
What rost 495 said is exactly right. If you are getting significantly more velocity than published material. You might rethink your load. Bullet and powder companies have equipment to measure the pressure’s of load combinations, handloaders don’t have. Chances are your loads are higher than what is considered safe pressure’s .
Hasbeen
The cartridge's history is equally "weak". It should be abandoned in favor of "stronger" cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor. Get with the program or get left behind.
Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load.
You know how many Elk have been killed with the old 30-30...Speed don't kill elk,shot placement does..
I’ve killed elk with a stick and string, plenty of deer and elk have been killed with a 30-30. So it’s all relative, if it shoots good, run with it.
Ever heard of W.D.M. Bell? Google him and see what he killed with the 7x57.
There is nothing like the well-placed shot. From my experience at public sight-in days, 6 out of 10 hunters have difficulty hitting a paper plate at 100 yards. Arguments over 100 fps plus-or-minus don't have much meaning when you can hit what you shoot at, the elk/deer/pronghorn will never know the difference.
Armednfree - I started my hunting with the 7x57 Mauser in 1962. Bought a mil version Chilean M95 through the mail from Sears for about $14 and converted it - slowly and amateurishly - to a hunting rifle. The only commercial ammo I could find then was 175 grain round nose stuff. Started reloading and found that the 140 grain was just about perfect for deer and downward and the 160 grain (or a bit more) was great for elk and bear. Shot a bunch of those species with that 7x57 for about 20 years until I got a few more dollars and branched out some. Still have that rifle - always will.
Due to cautions stated to me way back then, I was somewhat careful about pressure in the M95 but, with later 7x57s in different actions, I loaded up fairly hot. Can't think of any game in the East that it would not easily slay when properly loaded - am thinking the biggest thing you would hunt would be moose up in Maine, etc. and they are not all that difficult to kill with good shooting.
Some reloading "experts" have heavy head knowledge - often impressive - but some have opinions worth a lot less than the info they know.
People are generally stupid, I couldn't stand having to go to a gun range and listen to all the fuggery.
There are two kinds of self-proclaimed reloading "experts." There is the guy who insists we all stick to lab-tested book loads no matter what gun is used. And then there's the guy who says he loads above the book but "knows" his load is safe.
I'll let you decide who is smarter.
I think Jack O Connor 's wife took a 7×57 to Africa.
She may have used a 30-06 on the big five.
Lots of variables, is the brass new?
Are you blowing primers?
Chamber and bore diameter or twist could be different than somebody elses.
Wear safety glasses if you like your eyes.
Try a Ruger #1 in 45-70 for fun.
I see nothing wrong with your rifle, caliber choice or load. I probably would use a different bullet, but thats just personal. Your results speak for themselves. I don't pay much (read that as any) attention to those "experts". I kind of feel the same way with most of the stuff that I see on Utube.
I use most of the published load data as a guide. In a modern rifle I would push cartridges like the 7 X 57 a little more than most factory. With more modern cartridges I don't try to hot rod them.
My load for my match rifle in 6.5-284 is over most of the listed book max loads. Its been used by a lot of competitors and I approached it cautiously. Its a custom action thats very smooth and would be easy to feel if the bolt lift became sticky. There are no pressure signs on the primer or case head. Case head expansion never approaches .001. I'll shoot the same 40 cases for an entire season, so case life is normal.
Never seen any reason to push the loads in any of my rifles. If I feel the need for more power I move up to a bigger rifle.
Down at the club I was having a conversation with a "Book Smart" reloader. I mentioned that my one deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser Remington 700. The response was "weak", "can do better than that.
The thing is I'm not using a book load. I'm not using a load that some developer might think could get dropped into a rolling block. I'm using 47.2 grains of R17 with a Federal 205 and 154 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I'm running right at 2800fps with no stress on the rifle or brass. Formally I had used IMR 4350 that I built up in the same way. That nips the heels of a 280. Only one of the 11 deer I killed with that rifle went over 50 yards and that was because I hit him a bit too far back (back of one lung angled through the center of the opposite). Angles through the chest and through the shoulder I never recovered a single bullet. One, face on shot, I recovered from the front of the hip muscles. That retained 138 grains.
The difference is in reading and understanding. Knowing rifle strength, case capacity and what many people disregard, case design.I use Winchester brass and I dissected a 280 case and a 7x57 case. I found no difference in the case head of the 7x57 and the 280, but then again I didn't think I would.
Now tell me, what in the eastern United States that would not kill cleanly. Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load.
`
I think you might be able to go a bit higher than that. I read on another site where a fellow ran the 150 gr. Nosler Partition to 2900 FPS using RL17. I PM'ed him asking for details and he said he was using Winchester brass and primer and loaded 49.0 gr. RL17. His rifle was a Winchester M70 Featherweight. I worked up to 48.5 gr. Remington brass and WLR primer and got 2847 FPS with an ES of 39 FPS. Of the three shots, two were literally in the same hole and number three in perfect alignment with the other two but .50" above the group. Brass life has been good and after 6 reloadings primer pockets were still tight. Case head and pressure ring measurements were within tolerances. Primers flattened but still have rounded outside edges.
FWIW, I also tried working up to that level in a custom Mauser with a very tight chamber. That rifle shows high pressures signs even on the weak factory ammo. Measurements are on the tight side but within SAAMI tolerances. That rifle is driving me sane. It is very accurate though.
I still haven't tried working up with RL17 in a Ruger #1A due to time constraints and now it may be some time before I can go that route. A vehicle crash has me fairly well messed up for a while with a fractured sternum, and yes, 27 days after the accident it still hurts like hell in two ways. One is the pain from the injury which is taking its damned sweet time going away and two, the only thing the doc will allow me to shoot in a .22 LR.
So far tough, I really do like the results I've gotten from RL17 in the 7x57 and it shows a lot of promise for the 30-06 as well.
Paul B.
Armednfree: I have killed Bull Elk with a 280 Remington Rifle - see no reason a carefully placed shot with a 7x57 and a good bullet would not do the same.
Enjoy.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Avoid the "book smart reloader" at the club.
Or........ use him as a source for entertainment. See what other BS you can squeeze out of .
Congratulations on shooting a classic cartridge. I like the 7x57 round.
Some reloading manuals have data specific for both older and newer rifles in 7X57. The manuals will give advice on which loads can be used in different rifles. I would consult the manuals and abide by the information in them. I have used a number of the newer loads in a Ruger 1-A. Those loads perform similar to a 7mm-08.
Saami chamber psi is 51,000 for 7x57.
Remington 700 is clearly capable of handling 65,000, as in some Weatherby chamberings.
Brass is just a gasket, some might hold better than others. Necking down 8x57 Lapua could produce the best brass in the chambering.
Nothing says you can or should load it to the wall, but at equal pressures the old 7 is as capable as anything above ,below or beside it.
It can outclass a 7mm08 & comparing it to a 284 Win. or 7mm06 is fruitless. The later 2 can outpace, but only by a slim margin. Like picking the pepper out of fly chit.
Down at the club I was having a conversation with a "Book Smart" reloader. I mentioned that my one deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser Remington 700. The response was "weak", "can do better than that.
The thing is I'm not using a book load. I'm not using a load that some developer might think could get dropped into a rolling block. I'm using 47.2 grains of R17 with a Federal 205 and 154 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I'm running right at 2800fps with no stress on the rifle or brass. Formally I had used IMR 4350 that I built up in the same way. That nips the heels of a 280. Only one of the 11 deer I killed with that rifle went over 50 yards and that was because I hit him a bit too far back (back of one lung angled through the center of the opposite). Angles through the chest and through the shoulder I never recovered a single bullet. One, face on shot, I recovered from the front of the hip muscles. That retained 138 grains.
The difference is in reading and understanding. Knowing rifle strength, case capacity and what many people disregard, case design.I use Winchester brass and I dissected a 280 case and a 7x57 case. I found no difference in the case head of the 7x57 and the 280, but then again I didn't think I would.
Now tell me, what in the eastern United States that would not kill cleanly. Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load.
You might inform him that Kilimanjaro Bell (aka, W. D. M. Bell) killed over 800 elephants with Mauser 7x57mm (aka, 275 Rigby) rifle and military sold, round nose 173 grain ammo. Not bad for an inadequate round.
ArmedandFree:
Yes, About 1986 I had a custom 7x57 built on a Sako action and Douglas barrel; I was using a similar load to yours, and same results. People sometimes know what they are doing and happen to be correct about their knowledge.
And, gun clubs often have ignorant aspirants.
Talkin' rifles in Ohio or Pennsylvania is bound to draw some hilarious comments.
When I had my 7x57 M70, I was using data out of Hornady's #3 manual. Compared to everyone else's manuals, the data was HOT! I had no excessive pressure signs out of my rifle, and I was loading on an RCBS Junior press, and noted no more difficulty in sizing the Winchester cases, either. That press hasn't got the juice a Rockchucker has, by any means.
Didn't matter, it killed coyotes and deer without drama. I was running a 139 SP at 2860 fps, roughly the same fps. I was getting out of my .270 with 140s (I loaded it pretty mildly). Same weight bullets, more or less the same diameter bullets, same effect on critters. Big deal.
People keep mentioning Bell and the elephants but it isn't really relevant to the way the heavy majority of people use the 7x57.
I shoot an FN Mauser 98 in 7X57 that was made in 1952. My "go to" load is a 160 grain Partition with 47 grains of H4350, WLR primer and R-P brass. I haven't chrono'd it, but it's my rifle of choice here in Utah for deer, antelope, elk, bear and if I can ever draw a moose tag, I'll take it on that hunt too. Very little can't be done with a 7X57 and a 160 grain Partition. Sometimes shooting range "experts" are idiots. Lord knows there are plenty of them around. Remember the definition of "expert" An ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure.
Bell used a .275Rigby, according to what I have read. A rimmed version of a 7X57mm.
The 275 Rigby is not a rimmed cartridge. It is the British name for the 7x57 and is the same exact, rimless cartridge.
Down at the club I was having a conversation with a "Book Smart" reloader. I mentioned that my one deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser Remington 700. The response was "weak", "can do better than that.
The thing is I'm not using a book load. I'm not using a load that some developer might think could get dropped into a rolling block. I'm using 47.2 grains of R17 with a Federal 205 and 154 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I'm running right at 2800fps with no stress on the rifle or brass. Formally I had used IMR 4350 that I built up in the same way. That nips the heels of a 280. Only one of the 11 deer I killed with that rifle went over 50 yards and that was because I hit him a bit too far back (back of one lung angled through the center of the opposite). Angles through the chest and through the shoulder I never recovered a single bullet. One, face on shot, I recovered from the front of the hip muscles. That retained 138 grains.
The difference is in reading and understanding. Knowing rifle strength, case capacity and what many people disregard, case design.I use Winchester brass and I dissected a 280 case and a 7x57 case. I found no difference in the case head of the 7x57 and the 280, but then again I didn't think I would.
Now tell me, what in the eastern United States that would not kill cleanly. Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load.
Fugg him......
Always bring your 7x57 to the range.
When Tackleberry is their shooting his awesome stuff.
Lay down a 3 or 5 shot group.
Pull the target
Show the "reloading god" the group and point out the 1st hole from the cold barrel.
Just make the comments
"Thats the one that counts"
"This rifle kills schitt dead other than paper"
And simply walk away and dont give him a chance to respond to feel smug.
Try and do it around his fan boys also if he has some.
If ya really wanta fugg him up.
Lay a previous target with a date on it pointing out # 1 again and how they line up nicely.
Sometimes the best approach is a "in your face cold approach".
Fugg feelings........
Never give the dude the least little chance of an interaction ever again either, dont feed his ego.
Really wanta fugg him up...
Go the "pics or it never happened" route with dead schitt from that rifle pics.
LOL!!!
Fugg him....
Let him eat fisheads....
Just saying.....
LOL!!!
Pretty simple really the loading data in reloading guide books are designed around SAAMI spec pressures and those are based on the guns out there. As long as you have M93 & M95 Mausers being used by the public that load data won't much exceed 46,000 Cup. I wouldn't argue that with a M700 Classic your loads are capable and safe. When you look at what pressures that Norma and RWS load the 7 x 57 and 8 x57 compared to RP, WW ,& FC it sure makes you wonder, because they aren't too worried either. LOT TO DO WITH LITIGATION LAWYERS AND AMBULANCE CHASERS mostly at the corporate level. Use good brass and don't get ridiculous either. Lot of domestic carts are underloaded for the afore mentioned reasons( 6.5x55, 257 Robts. etc) Lotta folks here on the fire load the 257 Roberts way over what you find in the manuals. If you have weaker action guns and stronger ones for the same cartridge keep your loads well marked and separate. Naturally if you exceed manual recommendations ,YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN no matter who says what. MB
Don't claim to be an expert, but...
If you were to bring this up in the Big Game Reloading subforum rather than here in the nut house, you'd find that many of us regularly use 7mm-08 data as a guide for modern 7x57's. Alliant indicates 44 gr of RL17 for 2669 fps so you are pushing it beyond wisdom, you really should tone it down or switch powders.
But it is anything but weak, your acquaintance knows less than he thinks.
First, one must understand the differences between these two Cartridges.
The 7 x 57 has on average 4 grains more case capacity that the 08.
The 7x57 data runs at 51K psi, the 08 runs at 61K psi.
This reduced pressure in the X 57 is based solely on the fact that there are rifles out there chambered in the X 57 that cannot handle the same pressures as a modern day rifle like the 700.
By using 08 (61K) data in the larger cased X 57 (51K psi) you will most likely achieve the anemic 51K pressures of the X 57.
The OP is running a 700 action, totally capable of handling loads up to 65K psi.
The problem with exceeding the anemic low pressure load data for use in a modern day rifle is the lack of Pressure Tested Data.
But that's not the end of the world, many of us have to do the same with the 6.5 Swede, the 9.3 x 62, The 257 Roberts, even the 3006.
I check the OP's load in Quickload, according to QL, it is under well 65K, just under 60K for that matter.
[
You might inform him that Kilimanjaro Bell (aka, W. D. M. Bell) killed over 800 elephants with Mauser 7x57mm (aka, 275 Rigby) rifle and military sold, round nose 173 grain ammo. Not bad for an inadequate round.
I believe you're referring to "Karamojo" Bell, not "Kilimanjaro" Bell. There are a couple of other factoids to consider.
1. Bell was an exceptional rifle shot from the offhand position. He even dry fired continually on the way to the game.
2. Bell spent a lot of time studying elephant skulls to make good brain shots.
3. Bell was interested in making a large bag. He only shot the brain (or at least tried) because a brain-shot elephant just drops. The other elephants, in his day, would just stand around. A chest shot elephant makes a helluva racket and runs. This scares the others.
4. The brain shot is harder than a chest shot. This means there is a premium on accuracy. It is easier to shoot a low-recoiling rifle accurately.
5. Bell was the first man to bring a modern rifle into the areas he hunted. The elephants were not as wary as now.
6. You don't kill elephants by "hydrostatic shock" or tissue damage in the brain. You kill them by penetration. The sectional density of a 7mm 173 grain bullet is about the same as a .458 500 grain bullet. A solid bullet tends to hold together.
7. You don't have to make a blood trail (as in the bigger bullet or exit hole the better) with elephants.
Under today's conditions, where you might get one shot at one elephant in a week of tracking, you will probably take a chest shot. If the elephant escapes wounded, you will have to pay a $10,000 trophy fee. Under today's conditions, a 7mm would be a terrible choice. Nevertheless, I have seen PHs miss entire elephants at least three times with "elephant rifles."
Saami chamber psi is 51,000 for 7x57.
Remington 700 is clearly capable of handling 65,000, as in some Weatherby chamberings.
Brass is just a gasket, some might hold better than others. Necking down 8x57 Lapua could produce the best brass in the chambering.
Nothing says you can or should load it to the wall, but at equal pressures the old 7 is as capable as anything above ,below or beside it.
It can outclass a 7mm08 & comparing it to a 284 Win. or 7mm06 is fruitless. The later 2 can outpace, but only by a slim margin. Like picking the pepper out of fly chit.
That's kind of what I was thinking.
OP's load, depending on brass is probably around 53K psi. He's about 3 grains away from 65K psi.
Cartridge : 7 x 57 mm Mauser (SAAMI)
Bullet : .284, 154, Hornady SST InterLock 28302
Useable Case Capaci: 51.478 grain H2O = 3.342 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.071 inch = 78.00 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17 *T
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.02% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.2 88 44.00 2622 2352 42863 9215 99.5 1.344
-09.2 89 44.50 2651 2403 44329 9284 99.7 1.323 ! Near Maximum !
-08.2 90 45.00 2679 2455 45847 9348 99.8 1.302 ! Near Maximum !
-07.1 91 45.50 2708 2507 47420 9406 99.9 1.283 ! Near Maximum !
-06.1 92 46.00 2736 2560 49050 9459 100.0 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
-05.1 93 46.50 2764 2612 50736 9506 100.0 1.244 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.1 94 47.00 2792 2665 52492 9550 100.0 1.225 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.1 95 47.50 2820 2719 54309 9592 100.0 1.207 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 96 48.00 2847 2772 56195 9634 100.0 1.189 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0 97 48.50 2875 2826 58149 9675 100.0 1.171 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 98 49.00 2902 2880 60179 9715 100.0 1.154 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 99 49.50 2929 2934 62288 9754 100.0 1.136 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 100 50.00 2956 2988 64478 9793 100.0 1.120 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.1 101 50.50 2983 3043 66751 9831 100.0 1.103 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.1 102 51.00 3010 3098 69116 9868 100.0 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.1 103 51.50 3037 3154 71574 9903 100.0 1.071 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 98 49.00 2938 2951 64018 9581 100.0 1.126 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 98 49.00 2861 2799 56513 9866 100.0 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
People keep mentioning Bell and the elephants but it isn't really relevant to the way the heavy majority of people use the 7x57.
This is true.
The 7X57 is more than adequate for deer/pig/black bear, and some performance gains can be had in a stronger rifle.
I have run into the same "weak" argument with the .30-30, hearing stuff like "Only good to 50 yards". I've killed deer past 200 yards with one, and with a typical .30-30 load, not a supercharged spitzer-bulleted load.
I finally convinced one guy I hunt with a .308 Win is plenty for deer. He thought his .50-cal muzzleloader to be far superior, and had serious doubts about "that little-bitty' bullet.
Down at the club I was having a conversation with a "Book Smart" reloader. I mentioned that my one deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser Remington 700. The response was "weak", "can do better than that.
The thing is I'm not using a book load. I'm not using a load that some developer might think could get dropped into a rolling block. I'm using 47.2 grains of R17 with a Federal 205 and 154 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I'm running right at 2800fps with no stress on the rifle or brass. Formally I had used IMR 4350 that I built up in the same way. That nips the heels of a 280. Only one of the 11 deer I killed with that rifle went over 50 yards and that was because I hit him a bit too far back (back of one lung angled through the center of the opposite). Angles through the chest and through the shoulder I never recovered a single bullet. One, face on shot, I recovered from the front of the hip muscles. That retained 138 grains.
The difference is in reading and understanding. Knowing rifle strength, case capacity and what many people disregard, case design.I use Winchester brass and I dissected a 280 case and a 7x57 case. I found no difference in the case head of the 7x57 and the 280, but then again I didn't think I would.
Now tell me, what in the eastern United States that would not kill cleanly. Hell, I'd shoot an elk with that load.
`
I think you might be able to go a bit higher than that. I read on another site where a fellow ran the 150 gr. Nosler Partition to 2900 FPS using RL17. I PM'ed him asking for details and he said he was using Winchester brass and primer and loaded 49.0 gr. RL17. His rifle was a Winchester M70 Featherweight. I worked up to 48.5 gr. Remington brass and WLR primer and got 2847 FPS with an ES of 39 FPS. Of the three shots, two were literally in the same hole and number three in perfect alignment with the other two but .50" above the group. Brass life has been good and after 6 reloadings primer pockets were still tight. Case head and pressure ring measurements were within tolerances. Primers flattened but still have rounded outside edges.
FWIW, I also tried working up to that level in a custom Mauser with a very tight chamber. That rifle shows high pressures signs even on the weak factory ammo. Measurements are on the tight side but within SAAMI tolerances. That rifle is driving me sane. It is very accurate though.
I still haven't tried working up with RL17 in a Ruger #1A due to time constraints and now it may be some time before I can go that route. A vehicle crash has me fairly well messed up for a while with a fractured sternum, and yes, 27 days after the accident it still hurts like hell in two ways. One is the pain from the injury which is taking its damned sweet time going away and two, the only thing the doc will allow me to shoot in a .22 LR.
So far tough, I really do like the results I've gotten from RL17 in the 7x57 and it shows a lot of promise for the 30-06 as well.
Paul B.
RL17 has been giving horrible pressure when you get to speed in my 284. I had a bit of work done to the gun IE I had stuck cases and had the bolt timed correctly, will go back and see again. But at the moment RL17 has me a bit Leary.
Regardless even in competition shooting the last 100 FPS is never needed or worth it. Instead buy what you are after with BC of a better bullet. It generally means more than speed anyway, IE bump 050 of BC means more in wind drift than 100 fps.. IIRC its been years since I ran the numbers
I've actually SEEN deer and antelope running the numbers.
Benefits all concerned every time.
7x57 isn’t weak. I haven’t used a book for anything in many years to load anything. Every rifle , brass , powder , bullet , and primer max load is unique to itself. If you actually understand how pressure makes things fail and you load progressively from low to high in small increments you’ll see the signs as you approach real useful maximum. Modern bolt actions don’t fail until well past 150,000 psi. The primer or case is going to fail long before the action is damaged in the slightest. Running it hot will ruin cases and barrels faster is all. 7x57 loaded up is plenty to kill anything with the right bullet and shot placement and is completely adequate and appropriate of anything other than brown bears here in North America. For me the right bullet is going to be a Berger in some weight for almost everything. No 7x57 me for brown bears. I want something that any angle is drt. For brown bear I want to be able to heart shoot them from behind through the hip and blow a hole out the opposite front shoulder. Being shredded to death by a bear isn’t high on the list of ways to go. Idiot intellectuals at the range abound and make me fantasize about gut shooting them and watching them die. I haven’t tried with a 7x57 because I don’t own one currently but I’d bet you could run Lapua brass in a tight chamber with CCI primers to close to 70,000 psi but the brass would be toast in one or two firings.
Talkin' rifles in Ohio or Pennsylvania is bound to draw some hilarious comments.
I resemble that remark, being raised a Buckeye. There is truth there. I now hunt exclusively in KY, and let me tell you that there is a world of difference. Your general run-of-the-barbershop old fart Buckeye spent most of his life lobbing shotguns slugs at deer. What he knows about centerfire rifles comes reading Outdoor Life, 3rd hand sources or military experience. I was that way. Luckily, I had some really old-old farts around me that worshipped 30-06 Springfield, and so I did not have that bad of an education.
I'm going to address this problem from that of an unedumacated Buckeye. Given something like 7X57, the first response is going to be to judge it against 30-06 or 300 WIN MAG. Ought-Six is proper deer medicine. It "kills everything on the North American Continent" . 300 WIN MAG is something magic that take care of the biggest bears, and the most distant elk. Everything else is crap that some swarmy little ferner designed to kill other little swarmy ferners and it wasn't going to kill big Germans and Americans-- for that you need at least a 30-something. From there you'll start getting stuff about how some chamberings pick up speed out past 300 yards. You get the idea.
From this standpoint, a 7mm-something just isn't in the same ballpark as a 30-something.
There is another aspect to this, and I saw it the first time someone brought a 260 REM to a neighbor's deer camp I was visiting. These were not Kentucky natives. These were all Buckeyes and Back-Easters. Everyone got a chance to shoot it and there really was no appreciable recoil. The reaction was one of admiration that quickly turned to loathing. That was cheating somehow. If it didn't bruise your shoulder, it wasn't going to do much to the deer. Everyone in that camp had either driven or flown to KY to get their shoulders bruised properly, and they were not going to brook any interference.
A deer will die when properly hit with a 7x57 loaded to be safe in old rifles just like a hot load. My 7x57 load is a max load of H4350 in a 7mm-08. I may be able to increase the power but why do I need to?
i have a single shot carbine made by riedl, who is now gone from this world. shooting 170 grain round nose, at distance, it's pretty cool as you can time the flight of the bullet, and it goes "thunk" when it hits something.
I acquired a couple boxes of kynoch i think they are 175 grain round nose bullets in 7 x57, they are labeled on the box "dangerous game bullets" I suppose made for africa use.
never loaded any of them to shoot cow turds with, i think they are kind of rare. If i find some "dangerous game" in arizona, maybe a different story.
People are generally stupid, I couldn't stand having to go to a gun range and listen to all the fuggery.
Me neither
People are generally stupid, I couldn't stand having to go to a gun range and listen to all the fuggery.
Me neither
Yeah. You guys would have to get off the couch for that...
I think the only place you'll hear stuff funnier than what you hear at the range would have to be the sales counter. BUT, I have had an experienced life-long hunter and good friend tell me that the reason a .30-06 is so deadly is that the bullet starts tumbling wildly at about 150 yards so it just tears up anything it hits.
One day I will ask him who the hell told him that.
I think the only place you'll hear stuff funnier than what you hear at the range would have to be the sales counter. BUT, I have had an experienced life-long hunter and good friend tell me that the reason a .30-06 is so deadly is that the bullet starts tumbling wildly at about 150 yards so it just tears up anything it hits.
One day I will ask him who the hell told him that.
Now that's funny.Lol!!!
RiverRider, if I may take the liberty of suggesting you find yourself a new doormat, just for your good friend....
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/UtanSDb.jpg)
People are generally stupid, I couldn't stand having to go to a gun range and listen to all the fuggery.
Me neither
Yeah. You guys would have to get off the couch for that...
I"m just glad in that all my years I"ve set foot on a public range once.
I have on match days when ranges are closed to all the idiots but thats different.
not as lucky as H22 here in TX, I only get to 600 yards out the back door. AK tis a bit different... public land out the door and obviously I can shoot far enough to have to call coordinates rather than wind and elevation
I have killed a truckload of Whitetail & Axis with my 280 running 150’s @ 2800. Never thought I needed any more speed at all.
Is 2800 pushing the 7x57 to the edge of its capability with a 150? Never worked with it.
Is this commenter one of those people who think anything less than a .300 WM will just bounce off a whitetail? There are lots of opinions on a gun range, and quite a few of them are usually pretty dumb...
Actually 2800 is normal in the 280 if you load it to capacity. SAAMI specs are more attributed to the semi auto Remington it was introduced in. If you push it to the pressure limits of a 270, 58,000 increased to 61,000 psi that is.
The 7mm-08 in a 24" barrel comes in at just under 2800, more like 2750. The 280 Win in factory loads are not really different than 7mm-08 given the same length barrel. But at the higher pressure they will run around 2900 fps with a 150 grain.
7x57 simply falls in between.
And we still are thinking its needed to get that last 100 or so fps out of something... it simply is not.
I don't even push my 458 bear loads and I"m guiding and a few folks lives may depend upon my loads... its simply not needed.
There are things we hot rodded over the years. To win paper matches.
On game I've never hot rodded a round ever. And its never came back to haunt me either.
RiverRider, if I may take the liberty of suggesting you find yourself a new doormat, just for your good friend....
LOL.
I could just board up the front door, I suppose. But life would get pretty boring, and far too quiet.
He's a good guy and I enjoy knowing him, even if he's not a gun expert.
If someone argued with a load book fundamentalist, which one is the fool?
The cartridge's history is equally "weak". It should be abandoned in favor of "stronger" cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor. Get with the program or get left behind.
Hilarious!
And we still are thinking its needed to get that last 100 or so fps out of something... it simply is not.
I don't even push my 458 bear loads and I"m guiding and a few folks lives may depend upon my loads... its simply not needed.
There are things we hot rodded over the years. To win paper matches.
On game I've never hot rodded a round ever. And its never came back to haunt me either.
Actually don't look at American data. R17 is the same as Swiss RS60. Made by Nitrochemie.
7x57 is one of the best Whitetail rounds in existence.
I have pressure measuring equipment, as well as a chronograph. And I have a 7x57 on a modern Zastava Mauser action.
The gas in the chamber cannot read the head stamp on the case.
The case head structure of 7x57 is identical with the 308, 270, and 30-06.
A cartridge case, barrel, and receiver design that will tolerate 62 KPSI from a 308 will also tolerate 62 KPSI from a 7x57.
In a modern action in good condition, loading the 7x57 to modern pressures is not hot rodding.
My standard 7x57 load is a 162 grain bullet at 2762 FPS and measured 56.1 KPSI pressure. That is nearly 6 KPSI (10%) below the maximum for a 308, and really quite conservative.
I have killed a truckload of Whitetail & Axis with my 280 running 150’s @ 2800. Never thought I needed any more speed at all.
Is 2800 pushing the 7x57 to the edge of its capability with a 150? Never worked with it.
It's well above "load book" data, centered around the anemic pressures of the x57 (50K), but very doable in a modern action (65K).
QL calculates 150gr Nosler BT in a 24 inch barrel @2800fps to be about 62K psi.
I have killed a truckload of Whitetail & Axis with my 280 running 150’s @ 2800. Never thought I needed any more speed at all.
Is 2800 pushing the 7x57 to the edge of its capability with a 150? Never worked with it.
It's well above "load book" data, centered around the anemic pressures of the x57 (50K), but very doable in a modern action (65K).
QL calculates 150gr Nosler BT in a 24 inch barrel @2800fps to be about 62K psi.
And the rifle is happy with that. No indications of high pressure and accurate. I use the Winchester 150 grain sometimes.
"Is 2800 pushing the 7x57 to the edge of its capability with a 150? Never worked with it."
I don't think so. I've run the 150 gr. Nosler partition to 2900 FPS and brass life has been good. IIRC, Mule Deer said that 2800 FPS was reasonable in a modern rifle and that's most likely the level I will load to.
I have three rifles chambered to the 7x57, a Winchester M70 Featherweight push feed, a Ruger #1A and a custom built on an FN Mauser action. The original chambering for the FN was the .270 Win. BTW so should be appropriate for the 7x57.
Most load work up has been done with the M70 FWT with some tried in the Ruger. The Mauser on the other hand has been problematic regarding pressure. For one thing the Mauser's chamber is at the very minimum AKA very tight. So titght that the pressure ring is almost not there. Chambering at the neck is sufficiently loose that a bullet slides easily into the fired case so that's not where the problem lies. Damned if I know.
I did an interesting experiment. I looked up the average charge for the 175 gr. round nose bullet to duplicate the original 1893 load (2300 FPS) and loaded up five rounds for each rifle. The M70 and Ruger ran 2320 and 2330 FPS but the Mauser was close to 2450 FPS. All three sets of loads used the same powder charge.
I just might have to change powders for the Mauser The M70 and Ruger are happy with Rl17.
If I hadn't gotten messed up in a vehicle crash I'd have found out just how well the 7x57 would've worked on a cow elk. The crash was just four days before my scheduled date to leave for the hunt.
Paul B.
Indiana never a rifle deer state until recently.
But with good manufacturing jobs a lot of gun nuts that did hunt elsewhere.
I've heard some stuppid chit at various ranges/clubs.
Used to be you let your target talk for you.
With smart phones now, if the target doesn't shut em up, show em the dead critters.
Bell used a .275Rigby, according to what I have read. A rimmed version of a 7X57mm.
the rimmed version of the 7X57mm was the 7X57mmR.