What brand pillars are recommended for the Remington 700?
I’ve got a laminated stock I’d like to install them on.
I’ve seen the Score-Hi and the Holland. What else is available?

Score-HI makes one of the best pillar kits available.If you use their boring jig it is about idiot proof.

I note that a lot of the pillars are made from aluminum.
They must work, but what about/why isn't there galvanic action between the two dissimilar metals?

Galvanic action is the reason for anode beds. Got a steel fence? Bury old mag wheels every now and then. Connect them with wire and the corporation goes to the aluminum, not the iron, or steel. Problem with pillars? Never.

Aluminum pillars are what you want to use. I make my own that are custom made for each application as there is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to pillars.

The Score High adjustable ones actually work pretty well...they give the DIY'er some adjustability for length. When the threaded inner adjuster is epoxied in place, they don't move.

I don't advise any direct contact between the pillars and the action. -Al

I’ve made mine with stainless tubing….

I have used aluminum pillars, but I have "poured" pillars using Marine Tex. Same material as the bedding so same thermal expansion and contraction rate

I've had good luck using 3/8" threaded lamp rods. Available most everywhere & inexpensive.

Now that’s being creative….

I have some SS tubing I plan to use, but have always wondered about the alumimum.
Lube and very dry conditions may well be parts of the solution.

Pillar bedding came along with the composite stocks because unlike wood the composite stocks would crush/compress....a laminated wood or a wood stock wont compress it doesn't need pillar bedding glass bedding is all it needs.

This is incorrect.

That mirrors my experience with Score-High. I like them, and I like their kit. If I were bedding another 700 tomorrow, I would order this kit again.

Wood stocks are one of the reasons for pillars. A second is that the early fiberglass stocks ( McMillan and others ) were notorious for crushing. The laminated stocks are the most crush resistant, not crush proof. Pillars are a good thing, action blocks are even better.

No one was pillar bedding before composite stocks came along....I'm not incorrect

If you have all the answers John Boy then why ask a question ?

Let me quess...to spread your vast knowledge.


The only purpose a pillar block serves is to keep the stock material from compressing......action blocks were designed for composite stocks.

Pretty testy for a newbie……
You can’t even interpret a question correctly.
I was asking WHICH pillars the good folks here thought best.
I wasn’t asking for historical data. Especially mistaken historical data.
Too much time spent in magazines……

Pillar bedding was being done as early as the '50's on wooden stocks of the day.

When Lee Six and Chet Brown introduced the fiberglass stocks in the late 1960's, pillar bedding became mandatory for them, given the stock making technology of the day.

Laminated wood stocks do move. Properly done pillars are mandatory for best accuracy and to reduce POI changes.

Aluminum pillars remain the gold standard for pillar material. Anything else is a compromise.



Action bedding blocks were first designed to be used on early wooden stocks. The epoxies of the day didn't hold up as a bedding compound, even with pillars. The bedding blocks were inletted into wood stocks in an attempt to provide a more stable area for the action to mate to, without using a bedding compound.


Good shootin' -Al

I'd like to see verifiable proof of pillar bedding being done "as early as the 50's"....and also action bedding blocks being designed for wooden stocks.

Until then I'll stick with pillars were first used for composite stocks and the use of a bedding block being designed by Remington for the composite stocks on their Sendora rifles.

Show me proof I'm all about learning.

Let’s see….
If a person wanted to describe pillars as ferrules then Mauser was the first to use “pillars”. Or, so no one misconstrues what I’m saying… single pillar / stock ferrule at the rear tang. No need, or room for a front “pillar”….I’ll let you guess the year.

LFC, proof shown. Did you learn anything ?

I think the 1891 Mauser was the first to use a rear ferrule. I’ll check my copies of Olsen and Speed’s books to verify…..

Note the narrow tang. The very reason for a ferrule. Walnut wood stock very prone to crushing since the pressure from the action screws is concentrated over very few square inches ( or centimeters ).

Do we need to talk about who was the first to use laminated stocks?

Ouch!

I’m all about learning also!!!

🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗

My first high powered rifle was Model 95 Mauser back about 1970....I.learned Mauser used the steel ferrule on the rear action screw long ago....not the same as actual pillar bedding

Buy you some

Great idea!!!! Why hadn’t I thought of that!!!!

I'm still waiting.....I thought we were on the same page about "pillar bedding and the use of action blocks for accuracy" this time don't dig up some old military crap to stop a stock from cracking John bOy.

😂 😂 😂…

Being a kitchen table gunsmith, I love these threads to learn more. One of my sources of information is our own Mule Deer. John B has a few good books out there that I reference often. No fluff, just his opinions and his gunsmith friends opinions.

In RIFLE TROUBLE-SHOOTING and HANDLOADING, John explains that pillar-bedding originated in thin synthetic stocks to keep the plastic from collapsing.

Pillar bedded rifles tended to shoot better, so it was broadly used with that assumption, but it was probably due to the gunsmiths who built the stock / rifle. So, he goes on to say that pillar bedding does not help all that much with stocks made of hard walnut or a solid synthetic material AS LONG AS THE STOCK IS CORRECTLY BEDDED.

JB, if you read this correct me if I mis quoted you.

No argument from me....never read it in a book. No doubt pillar bedding sounds cool

A good test of bedding is if the action screws come down and just stop when tight....when an action screw just keeps inching it needs help. To me that shows compression or bad bedding.

Ps...John boy I suspect the Germans went to laminated wood in a last ditch effort to produce rifles in the war but they don't compare to modern laminated stocks.

I suppose I could get out the Mauser 98 that an area 'smith did in 1958. It's a Herters (maybe Reinhardt-Fajen) walnut stock of the era with a roll over cheek piece and wide, flat, varmint fore end. The action rests on a v-block inletted into the stock. Barrel is a heavy, blued, no taper barrel (not sure of make) that measures .930 at the muzzle. It's chambered and marked '244 Remington' which is what the 6MM Remington was called prior to being renamed in 1963.... lending further creedence to when it was done.

Torque screw drivers are what’s needed to properly torque the screws.
I have no argument that as a commercial application the above statements are true. They are not however the first application of pillars. That goes elsewhere.

Actually, a properly done pillar bedding job won't show any change in varying the screw torque.

If you can change things by changing the screw torque, something is flexing and/or binding. -Al

Al, you are correct. I was just stating that there are accepted measurements of torque for various stocks. Laminated, cheap synthetic, walnut and quality synthetic stocks. They all require different settings.

I'm not aware of any "accepted measurements of torque" for various stock compositions.... -Al

Your local gunsmith should also be of help here.
Farmer tight doesn’t cut it. I.E. ring marks on scopes. Virtually all mechanical objects have torque settings for various components. Cars, turbines, firearms…

Having only bedded a hundred+ rifles, I'll see if I can't get someone to point me in the right direction.

Bedded hundreds of stocks and no knowledge of torque settings?
Sounds like the blind leading the blind….

Oh.... I might have plenty of knowledge about "torque settings" in all sorts of applications. The point is that a correctly done, stress free pillar bedding job won't respond with accuracy and/ p.o.i. changes with changing the torque settings on the action screws. Again, if it does, the bedding isn't right. Period.

How torquing the screws on non pillar bedded rifles rose to the top of the thread you started specifically about pillars...who knows?

In my time not playing with rifles, I work at a private drag race engine dyno testing facility. We might torque fasteners.











Here's an interesting one I just finished. For some reason, imgur doesn't like these pics so I'll drop a link to it. I know there's no "torque" settings to be found but hopefully it's of at least casual interest.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/pillar-bedding-a-savage-99-project.4048079/

All the best with your current and future bedding projects. "Torque" on, brother. -Al

A couple other recent ones.

Now you’re talking!!!! Beautiful work!
We got off on the torque subject after some well meaning member misread what I had asked and proceeded so assail my reason for asking the question. I fully understand what you’re saying and as an accomplished technician your input is highly valued. That being said, I’ll continue my habit of torquing action, base and rings screws. It just makes good sense to me. It eliminates the variables and is a good habit to be in.

Do you think that engine could be squeezed into my Jeep???

As quality a job as your engines!!! Outstanding work…..

A few more random ones:





This gun won the IBS National Championship in the Hunter Rifle class.





Kelbly KLP for a Panda, converted to pillar bedding and a recoil lug added.







Just finished another Panda..a glue in that I converted to a bolt in. Cut the receiver, made a lug, through-milled and tapped the rear action screw hole and a few other tweaks.

There’s a certain beauty to quality workmanship….

Semi-finished product:





Finished product



Putting the pancakes on the table

Absolutely outstanding……..

If only I had a handful of lamp nipples and a torquing screwdriver, who knows how good these things could shoot?







Of course, regular huntin' rifles can't shoot real good, either. 250 Ackley Improved:





300WSM based case. This one is off elk hunting.

223 at 100 yards. Factory Remington laminated stock with pillars. Torqued to 60 inch pounds.





308 at 100 yards. After market laminated heavy stock. No pillars. Torqued at 40 inch pounds.





Ok for a home hobbiest with limited tools and skills….

I’m absolutely envious of your skills…..

Geeze Al, all of them shots on target and not a single wipeout. Lot of good that's gonna do at a score match...

You do outstanding work!

Nice looking varmint rifles

That's some nice work Al...

An old gun by an area gunsmith that is not verifiable doesn't hold up as proof in court.

Aluminum is the best pillar to use, it assists in accuracy as it prevents crushing of the stock and prevent stress cracks.

Thanks. Leaning towards the high score adjustable pillars.although the steel pillars for the Mauser are adaptable to the Remington.

When I first heard about pillars I started boring the action screw holes larger than before. Glass bedded the screws (with release in the screws). Then I bored the holes to free the screws.
The result was a cylinder of glass bedding around the screws. I have not done that in a long time. I still wonder why that won’t work.

I’ve done something similar in the past. I’d turn the screws every so often until the epoxy set. Not near the quality of Al’s work, but I’m not competing. Just piddlin’. If I go with the Mauser pillars I’ll bore the holes slightly larger than the pillars and add a little tape to the screws to keep them centered. Southern engineering to be sure…. Or, someone take the 308 barreled action off my hands and I’ll buy that old 8x57 Mauser I’ve got spotted out…..

Yep I've used threaded lamp tubing too , not aluminum though.

I may have to see what Lowe’s has in stock…..

You don't want any contact between the action screws and the pillar. That acts as a 'recoil lug' and is an accuracy killer and a good way to break the stock around the pillars. -Al

John Boy: is this a 700 you're working with? -Al

Al,
Thank you for your help. Yes, it’s a Remington 700. Is pillar to action / bottom metal contact acceptable?

I was pillar bedding rifles in 1971; using cast fiberglass pillars. Did my first glass stock in 1976 and did it the same way. Today, my preference is still to use glass but I also use aluminum or steel. I have also milled full length bedding blocks.
By the way, U usually drill the holes out to 9/16 to cast the pillars; this dependent on the action. GD

Thanks greydog.
Most people here have far more experience with firearms than me. I’m not aware of everyone’s careers , or experience so occasionally I offend with my limited input. No intent to offend, just unaware of others knowledge and experience. That’s why I ask even simple questions that the average shooter may know. I’m willing to listen even to rookies. Sometimes great ideas come from the youngest…..
I’ve never heard of doing pillars as you describe, however I can see the merit in the idea. Might be a good alternative.

Yes...you want the bottom metal firmly in contact. I bed the bottom metal to the pillars.

If it's an ADL style stock....are you going on top of an existing escutcheon or will the pillar be flush with the bottom of the stock? Or is it a BDL bottom metal stock that you're doing?

Also...do you have the capability to enlarge the action screw holes in the stock to 5/8" and keep them positioned correctly? -Al

Al,
It’s a BDL stock. I no longer have a drill press. I had planned on using the High Score pillars. A piloted 5/8th bit would be used. Final fitting with a rasp. This is the stock. It’s heavy, but it helps mitigate the recoil.
I do have a H&S stock with an aluminum frame that’s available to me if the trade with this stock doesn’t fall through.

If you send me the stock and bottom metal, I'll make the pillar holes on the mill, make two pillars and epoxy them in for you. -Al

Al,
P.M. sent…..

I had originally posted the question to get fellow fire members to share their opinions on the best pillars to use on a rifle stock. We’ve seen answers ranging from lamp rods to Mauser ferrules to Score high. Al Nyhus responded with pictures of his work. Now, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I think the question has been well answered. My stock heads out to Al tomorrow. I’ll post pictures when she returns. Especially of the groups…

I still bed all mine this way. I bore them 7/16 of a inch and after removal bore the screw holes .250. My guns all shoot very well and hold their zeros

Gladly you were saved from Lowes....

So true….. I can’t wait to see the results…

Make my own.

Nice work!!!

I bought some of those with the intention of using them, but never did. They're kinda' thin walled though.

Years ago I ran across some thick wall aluminum tubing that works great.

I don't let the pillar touch the action, instead have a bit of bedding compound between the two for a more precise fit.

I mostly make my own pillars too. Stainless barrels cutoffs make great pillars .
Generally, with pillars, tight is tight. I usually break my rifles down for airline travel. Pillars are a must. I can put them together with just a screwdriver and they will be dead on. Torqueing them is fine but not necessary

Well, I’ll be changing my philosophy for using a torque screwdriver on my rifles. Thanks to the advice of Al Nyhus and several other informed members I’ll no longer be torquing a pillar bedded rifle. Non bedded rifles, scope bases and rings will continue to be torqued….
Yes , you can teach an old dog new tricks….

It looks like this statement has been corrected and put to bed, but here's more from Creighton Audette circa 1970's ish;

"...one of the major major problems with bedding is the tendency of the wood, or the bedding material to change dimensions, under the stress of the clamping action of the guard screws, and with changes in temperature and humidity. ...Plastics including those used in bedding materials are not completely impervious to moisture absorption, are attacked by some oils, greases and solvents, and are subject to "creep" under continued stress. ...during glass bedding, the bushings are permanently bedded in place in the bedding material.

He wrote a whole lot more about the problems with wood stocks and actually gets into the mechanics of how wood deforms over time. Cool reading from one of the accuracy thinkers/experimenters/competitors/gunsmiths.

I make my own from 6061 aluminum. Some have been in place for 25 years and so far no signs of corrosion between them and the steel.

I normally will mill a correct (receiver diameter) radius in the receiver end of the pillar and cut them to the correct length in the lathe. They then fit the receiver correctly.

Is that done with multiple passes or does the bit (correct name?) have the correct radius already and milled with one pass?

Disclaimer: I obviously do not own a lathe or mill!!

One pass with a boring head set to correct radius.

When the object of bedding is to provide a micron fit between action and the bedding material, why would we have the action in contact with two dissimilar materials (bedding and aluminum pillars)?

Good shootin'. -Al

That is one of the reasons I pour my pillars at the same time as I do my bedding. The other reason is that (for simple terms) it is like plumbing, the more joints you have, the more chances of leaks. When the bedding and pillars are poured at the same time you have one joint, the bedding to the stock.

Why all the concern with dissimilar materials, when most heavy grey epoxies use some form of metal as a filler/thickening agent, Ferrosilicon, kinda like chopped glass or micro- balloons one would use to thicken up epoxy resin.

Only place it was corrected was inside your head.

One thing sOme might have learned is pillar bedding became widespread when composite stocks came on the scene....

Torques wrenches are only necessary on action screws of cheaply made plastic stocks with aluminum wedge type bedding.

And last but not the least thing I learned was Al Nyhus can pillar bedd the hell out a a gun stock.

You might want to read the article in the December 1985 issue of Precision Shooting Magazine by Chet Brown entitled 'History Of Fiberglass Stocks' by Chet Brown. In this article, he details the work that he and Lee Six did with the first 'glass stocks and some of what was going on before the advent of them.



This is a quote from Jim Borden in the June 1990 issue of Precision Shooting Magazine:

"One of the frequently asked questions I get is how much to torque to use on the action screws. This is a sure indicator to me that an understanding of why we bolt guns together is not in place."

In 1984, Dave Breenan did an excellent series of articles in Precision Shooting Magazine 'The Evolution Of The Benchrest Rifle' that documents the work being done on these rifles from 1950 to 1955. In that series, mention is made of the firm of Taylor And Robbins using pillar bedding on their wood stocked rifles and how this had crossed over to their live varmint and sporter/hunting rifles.

Good shootin'. -Al

I dont need to read it.....it just backs up what I said.

While I don't use any of the metallic additive bedding compounds, I don't think those additives are really an issue as long as they don't adversely affect either the shrinkage or hardness of the end product. For bedding compounds that use metallic particles as part of the original blending, you want to make sure the shrinkage numbers are in line with a high quality, non-metallic compound. Prior to popular belief, bedding compounds, especially the metallic compounds, can actually be too hard when cured fully. The ceramic compounds I was given to test prior to them being brought to market as a bedding agent also showed that tendency.

Having the receiver in bedding material and also in hard contact with metallic pillars is simply not the best way to do a quality bedding job that will last.

Good shootin'. -Al

Here’s the answer to the original question.
Pillars by Al Nyhus…



Now I’ve begun the balance of the project.

John, after about 8 hours, gently loosen the guide pins a half turn with a locking pliers....just make sure they're free. Then walk away for another 12 hrs. (16 total).

Patience, young Jedi..... -Al

Nice job

Thanks for the reminder Al. Actually I’ve already done it twice.
Yes, LFC, done by the best….

I've got a coffee can full of these in various lengths. Selling for $29.99 each, shipping included, and thats to AK and HI included.

SAKO, Mauser?

I see it's already been addressed as I read the thread.



Al,
It seems you are against torquing the screws.

Is there a reason not too?
Or just that it's not so important?

I’ve reformed. Based on Al’s advice and pictures….. and the advice of other wise members I won’t be torquing action screws any longer. Only base and ring screws…..

I have made pillars from:
3/8" brass tubing.... dissimilar metals problem for the rest of the rifle
3/8" stainless tubing,. dissimilar metals problem for the rest of the rifle
3/8" steel tubing.... my favorite
1/2" Aluminum...... dissimilar metal problem for the Aluminum
I remember 8th grade shop class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series

I like to glass bed pillars pre compressed. This may require making custom washers for fixturing.
I like to 1.25" diameter side cut the end of the pillar to fit round receivers. 20 years ago, Steve Acker, the gunsmith machinist used boring head to match the pillar end to the receiver radius.
I used to do this, but the end mill is faster and slightly undersized. That lets the receiver spread the pillar ear in compression for better traction for the bullet twist reaction.

I like to rough up the pillar sides so the epoxy can grab the pillar.
I run a tap through the pillar hole in the stock, so the epoxy can grab the stock.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/14622540

So it's better to just crank them down, then to shoot for a known value
that allows good bolt tension. Or risk too loose/tight?

Trying to understand this. It's not something you do often, you
own a torque wrench, why wouldn't you go for perfect.

If not for bedding purpose, then just for holding?


To be clear here.
My tight ass never bought a suitable torque wrench.
So have always just went with good enough.

True, you can torque for a known value to ensure the screws won’t loosen over time. I was doing it to help ensure accuracy. Not needed with proper bedding.
For scope base: ensures you don’t snap off tiny screws.
For scope rings: avoids ring marks.
For action screws: for a known value.

Al can explain it far better than I can.

I'm not against torquing, per se. I'll circle back to this so bear with me.

The issue with 'torquing' is the preconceived notion that there's some sort of 'magic' torque value(s) that will make a gun 'shoot'. Or worse, that you can 'tune' a gun by changing the torque on the action screws.

The reality is that if either of those approaches show a difference in either accuracy or POI change, you've just demonstrated that the bedding is poor and needs attention.

A well done, stress free (there's the hard part) pillar bedding job will be impervious to action screw torque...given that the torque is at least sufficient enough to keep the action in place and not so excessive as to distort either the pillar, bedding or fastener. All these are basic principles of Hooke's law and Young's modulus, in physics and engineering terms. You can actually see those at work in another post here in the Gunsmithing section where I showed what happened when a guy severely over torqued one of my pillar bedding jobs, requiring me to mill the screw out and modify the bottom metal. Even after all that over torquing, the bedding checked out with no more than .0015 movement...the same as when I'd done it initially several years before. Even then, some don't connect the dots.

Once these are met, if a person wants to or just has to have a reference value, then there's nothing wrong with establishing a reference figure using a good, reliable, repeatable lbs/in. wrench. The import $9.95 ones don't do the job and miss on all the important points, if only obviously.

It's just that at that point (stress free with solid pillars and a quality bedding material), it's just not needed.......

For what it's worth. -Al

So after a time some type of corrosion problem is going to happen between the aluminum pillar and the steel.....

That why I always heard don't put steel screws in an aluminum boat.


Smart feller this Clarkm

For me the use of a torque wrench is a way to prevent over tightening and breaking small screws

The galvanic series referenced involved dissimilar metals in an electrolyte solution (that would be a liquid) and with an electrical current passed through them.

Al I didn't read his link....can you comprehend'e that ?

Galvanic corrosion is slower in the water vapor in the air.

Gotcha.

Makes total sense, and what I assumed.
Just wanted to be sure.

So how did your free pillar bedding job turn out ?

For make your own tubing https://www.speedymetals.com

Now that’s an idea….

These guys are good to deal with, also. -Al

https://www.aluminumspacers.com/

Finally, an update…..
I’ve been working on this for awhile and now have the answer.
Al Nyhus installed pillars are the best. Here are some pictures.
All groups were shot at 100 yards.
The first one is the group the rifle fired with the original sorry trigger and stock with no bedding whatsoever.
The second picture is the group with a Walker trigger that I got from a member here installed.
The third and fourth pictures are the groups with Al’s pillars installed and then bedded by me.
Inexpensive Simmons 6.5x20, with plain cheap imported ammo.
Next steps are hand loads and a new scope.
Looking for scope recommendations….

The rifle is chambered in .308 Winchester.
Many thanks to Al for all his advice and work on the pillars!!!

Glad it worked out...appreciate the feedback. Nice shootin'! -Al

Aluminum is fine but I have done plenty with a piece of left over barrel stub. Nothing wrong with stainless pillars. One thing about a proper Pillar being job is that tight is tight; nothing gives so torqueing to a specific number is not particularly important. My traveling rifles are transported with the stock removed. Simply reinstalling the stock and snugging up put them right back on the original zero. I've proven it many times.

So true, Dennis.

On a well done pillar bedding job, the screws come up to 'tight' instantly. Once they're tight enough to accomplish what their function is, there's nothing else to be gained by further tightening. People fail to realize that if they can change accuracy and/or POI by changing action screw tightness, they've just proven that the bedding needs work.

People buy into the Internet Urban Myths that you can 'tune' your rifle by some mystical, magical method of torquing the the action screws to certain values brought down a mountain on stone tablets or something.....

Unfortunately, the InterWeb makes it easier to believe voodoo and hoodoo than to take the time to get an understanding of what's going on and apply basic mechanical concepts for a solution.

Good shootin' -Al

This^^^^

I’ve learned a lot from Al and some other members here. They’ve all been very gracious in dealing with my learning curve. Old farts get set in their ways sometimes. It pays to listen. It pays even more to change…….