I have a Win 1300 that patterns 15" high @ 35 yards. Can that be fixed? Or should I sell it?

L.H., Yes, this can be fixed. You will need a very skilled gunsmith to re-inlet the portion of the stock that interfaces with the rear of the action. When done correctly and the stock and action are reunited, the comb will be lower which will move your impact point lower. Now, should you spend the money to do this to your Win. 1300? This is entirely your call. Would I do it? No. I'd sell it and buy a Benelli Montfeltro or a Beretta 391. Both come with shims that allow you to customize your comb height easily with minimal tools, skill, time and fuss. RS

LostHighway
Ripsnort gave you the right fix, but it is far easier than he suggested and should be cheap, even if you cannot do it yourself.

Lowering the comb is the goal, but often adding a touch of length to the stock will start that process. If you are longer of neck than average a good start would be an extension under the pad, or a new thicker pad.

Then slip a piece of credit card plastic between the receiver and the stock, but only on the top half of the junction. Then shoot it again and see how far you have come. Adding a half-inch of pad and one CC shim will probably leave you shooting just a hair high still by my WAG, with a little numerical support.

Once you determine what you need to do to the stock you will need to do a little careful woodwork, but it should not take an hour and then glass the receiver end and the stock together and you have it where it does you the most good.

While playing with your shim, you might consider adding a thinner shim on the starboard side of the junction to create a little cast-off (assuming you are rightie) which will do much to reduce felt recoil...
art

First, it is certainly possible, although unlikely, that your barrel has been bent. Fairly easy to check, take it off the gun, use something like a telephone pole, using the barrel as a mirror see if the pole line reflection runs straight down the barrel. If it does it is fairly straight, if it doesn't you'll need to straighten it, which is not all that hard, once you get used to the idea. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You can also check it with a light/shadow down the barrel, but it is somewhat harder to describe the process.

Second, with all due respect to both the learned posters above, if the barrel isn't bent, and IF the stock fits you reasonably well as far as LOP is concerned now, the fix is easy and cheap, how cosmetic it will be is up to your skills as a stock refinisher. By my rough calculations, you need to take roughly 1/2 inch or slightly less off the comb height. Take a rasp and go to it. Rasp some and shoot some. When you get close, go to sandpaper and finish it out. "It is easier to take it off than to put it on. Repeat that refrain as you rasp. Totally unlike women's clothes. And, yes, I mean on women. I don't wear them, I leave that to Alaskan's or their guests. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As if you haven't got enough advice already, changing the pitch of the butt and simply using a larger bead which you then place just under your target will both lower your impact. On the other hand you're just about right as is for trap shooting and rising pheasants <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's not the fit but point of impact is high. Though adjusting the stock would compensate for it. I'll try checking the barrel for straightness. What does a new barrel run?

LostHighway
A thousand pardons for giving an answer that IIFID does not like... but put your money on him. I will readily admit to taking scattergun advice from him in past and am the better for it.

Taking his advice into account, I would not take the rasp to the wood though until after you ensure the barrel is straight and see what you can do with the shim. I agree exactly with the 1/2" needed, just see moving the stock down as the easier route to that end... and I have done it exactly that way. Some stocks have very tight stock bolt holes and some are very loose and they are not model dependent as some of each flavor I have seen are each way... if you have a tight fitting stock bolt a little work with a bigger drill bit will make the tweaking easier.

The POI is high BECAUSE the comb is too high and the stock does not fit you (assuming the barrel is straight).
art

SD:

You are right, and the shim might well work. I just love the smell of sawdust.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lost highway.
Lot's of good advice, but from one who builds shotgun/rifle stocks as a hobby only, here is a way that you can determine exactly how much the stock needs modified.
The butt end of a shotgun stock resembles the rear sight of a rifel. ie, you want to move it in the direction that you want the center of the pattern to fall.

Take a good sized sheet of cardboard and put it exactly 16 yds out, with a spot on it, maybe 1" dia, any color you can see. Mount your shotgun as you usually do, without taking a lot of time aiming, and when you see the 1" dot, fire. Do this three times and you should get a good a good concentration of the center of the patern, if you are consistent.

For every 4" your pattern is off from the dot, you need to move the back of the stock 1/16"in the direction you want the pattern to move.
So in your case for an example, and some rounding off, lets say your 15" at 35 yds , correlates to 8 inches at 16 yds ( about 1/2 the distance). Your butt of your stock needs to drop 1/8" .

You could set your shotgun up and measure the drop at the heel as it is and then possibly try the shims until you get the desired drop.

If your pattern is off left to right, you need to move the butt of the stock left or right depending which way it is. This is called cast off and cast on.
Very few commercial stocks have this of say Mossbergs, Winchesters, and Remingtons. Some of the higher grade shotguns do. A right handed shooter usually needs his/her stock cast off to the right. Since I am only 5-6", my stocks have 1/4 " on the top, and 3/8" on the toe.

You could always buy a replacement stock from Boyds Boys that will pretty much fit your shotgun, and then modify it as required, add a recoil pad and finish it. Thereby saving the original stock. This won't run you more than $75-$100
Ther are people out there that bend shotgun stocks to suit the individual also

Gents,

Very interesting and informative thread.

Saddlesore:

Your math needs some checking.

Saddlesore
If a shotgun is patterning right and you go with cast-on to compensate you will have a bad jaw-bruiser of the worst kind. There are a ton of variables in stock shape and each effects the others.

Starting with a cast-off, slightly long stock and working back is what I am told is the easy way to go. I have been working with a local scattergun smith to get the shape correct for the 20gauge Remington 31 pump my son is restocking and his advice and suggestions are fresh.

But I love these kinds of discussions!
art

Flies/Dies. Help me I can't see the error. If I want to move 8" that's 2 x 1/16 inch= 1/8 inch.

Sitka Deer. Hey, me and you have had this discussion before about cast off/ cast on. You claim that the cast will give you a jaw crusher . I don't find that to be true, and the last time we talked about this , you dicided it isn't that important. Now I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, but to me , cast off is where the stock bends back to the right, looking from then end of the butt, towards the receiver. Cast on, it bends to the left. Since your shoulder and eye is not in a straight line, this is why it helps. At least to me. I can see where it would push the gun into your face, since it is basically curving around. I guess kinda like a roll over cheek piece that rises instead of falls. You might have to educate me about this, however I have three shortguns , two are side by sides, one is a single shot, all 12 guages that it has worked great on, I also have a 6.5 swede,a Model 70 in 06, and a 50 cal muzzle loader that all seem to work great on. In addition, my wife has 20 guage Benelli with not as much, but it is to the right adn it was on the gun new.. I also stocked a 12 guage over and under for a friend that was cast in the direction for a left ahnd shooter. He couldn't figure out why he was always shooting to the side. Now he doesn't miss.
I agree that all the stock shape, such as pitch, length of pull, cast , etc affect how a gun shoots. But the basic principle of moving the butt in the direction you want the pattern to shift still is valid. I forget the writer, but the book I read up on is was by an English gent who made shotguns. I tried to find it this AM but it's filed away somewhere where I won't lose it.

If I'm wrong, I sure apologize, but I don't think I am.

Well this shows that older folks shouldn't trust thier memory. I dug out this article which was in a Filed ans Stream Magazine in 1995. by Michael McIntosh. I was wrong about the 1/16 inch for every 4 inches. It's 1/16 inch for every inch off. This is by the English gunmaker Robert Churchil. ( who the heck ever that is.)Also the average shotgun is stocked too short and the length of pull should be more than the 14 1/2 inch range most come with.So if you take your shotgun and increase the length of pull, the butt becomes lower as it folows the angle of the stock.

Saddlesore
Pick up Robert Churchill's book (I am guessing that was humor whn you said you didn't know who he was?) on the science of shotgunning... it is a good one to my way of thinking... he goes into a lot more and when you start looking at inch corrections you have to know you are too far off and need to change other variables before you can go there...

Longer is always a better place to start and minute amounts of cast-on is acceptable, but 1/4" of cast will turn a heavy kicker into real beast, or a real kitten, direction-dependent, IME.
art

It can bve as simple as adjusting the pitch of the buttstock, I.E. changing the angle that you recoil pad sit against your shoulder.
It could also be as hard as actually doing a controlled bend on the barrel.

I would not bend the barrel on the Win 1300, but you can take it to your local smith. If he is any good with shotguns, he should be able to fit it to you and most likely take care of the problem by edjusting pitch.

celt

Celt
Sorry sir, but it is obvious shotguns are not your bag. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> No disrespect intended and I understand that where the gun sits on the shoulder is the same as where the comb runs, but that gets into mounting problems uncommon in factory stocks.
art

Within reason, pitch will not affect the POI of a shotgun. IF you had enough down pitch to where the recoil would push the barrel down (because you had only one small point of contact on the shoulder at the top of the butt stock) it MIGHT have some material affect on POI but it sure as hell would have a decided material impact on that point of contact on your shoulder. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The English style of shooting taught by Churchill is certainly an effective one, but it is not the style used by 98% of American shotgunners.

Shotguns are sort of like boxing stances, you have to find what works for you, however, I think MOST shotgun stocks are too long (LOP) for the shooter. I'm referring to field using type guns here. As far as I can determine, there is no advantage to shooting a longer stock and several serious disadvantages. I will be quick to admit that this is a far from universal opinion.

As far as what Sitka Deer says, obviously if you are determining stock LOP then starting long is the way to go, since it is a lot easier to cut them off than to make them longer.

Most people that live in normal climates <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> would be well served to get a gun that is the correct length with a say 1 inch thick recoil pad and change it to a 1/2 inch pad when they "coat" up for winter use, such as duck hunting, etc., 3/4 and 1/4 if you don't like long pads.

All BS aside. I'm starting to understand how H&H can get $20,000 for a custom built scattergun built to fit a specific customer.

Well , what can I say, all my rifles and shotguns have 1/4 cast off, and LOP that varies from 14 1/4 to 14 3/4" depending on the gun. They are all pleasant to shoot, don't crush my jaw, and when I pull them up, the scopes are pointed dead on at what I'm sighting at, and the shotguns pattern true to point of aim. The drop at the heel and comb vay form guntom gun depending on what sights are on them.
This has worked for me, I'm 5-6' , about 150 lbs. I suppose shorter shooters could have less and taller ones more. The longe rthe LOP, the more drop at the heel and comb you can achieve.
By my rekoning, this fellow needs to drop his heel measurement about 1/2 "

Saddlesore:

If those LOPs work for you that is fine, but you must have a really long neck or a serious case of stock crawling. Most factory rifle stocks that are fairly well designed these days (thanks to a century of trial and lots of error) have a LOP of about 13 1/2 inches. This is supposed to fit the "average" American who is about 5'10" and about 180 or so according to an article I read some while back. Since I'm just above average on ht, but ummmmm, pleasingly plump shall we say, I like a shorter LOP, unless the gun is a very hard kicker. I just whacked a 700 in 6.5x55 to 12 3/8 and I like it fine, although I wouldn't cut all of them that short and I don't shoot prone. My shotguns are 13 3/8 give or take a 16th.

Saddlesore
I am out the other side of average for height and yet my stocks are not terribly out of average because I have relatively narrow shoulders for my 6'4" and 225#.

But the fact your rifles and shotguns are stocked the same tells me one or the other does not fit you well... the combination is supposed to put your eye in the proper place without effort or major adjustment and there is a huge difference between the proper place on a shotgun and a rifle (assuming your rifles are sporting scopes).

A shotgun stocked like a scoped rifle would leave me shooting high on rapidly rising birds! And on the other side of that coin a rifle stocked like a shotgun would leave my jowl unsupported and a great deal of strength would be lost in the shooting stance. IME at least...
best to you
art
no insult intended nor taken...

Sitka deer. No insults taken, I'm here to learn. I guess what I should have said is that my shotguns and rifles have the same cast off. The drop at heel and combs are different depending on the rifle. Of course it is less for scoped rifles. and my muzzle loader has more with iron sights. The LOP on the huntng rifles are a little less because I wear more clothing then. The shotguns are longer because I usually just have a jacket and vest on.
I am built oddly. I seem to have longer arms in proportion the most, a short body and longer legs. My wife is the same height and when we sit together, she is about 2" taller than I.

I do crawl the stock and I like to pull the gun in tight to my shoulder. I shoot a lot prone if the hunting situation allows it. A short stock will sure smack you then.
I once had a Weatherby in 7 mag. I was laying a little downhill, shooting uphill at about 15 degrees at a bull. There was a small depression in a clearing about 10 ft wide in thick timber, with no other place to shoot. I shot 4 times, and the rifle smacked me 4 times. Talk about blood.

Anyway, these stocks work for me and may not work for others. Which I have tried to convey. I don't like to offer advice to others about things I haven't tried myself and work.

I don't get to bird hunt much here as it is a 150 mile drive to able to shoot 2 birds. I shoot some clays,time permitting. I don't hit as many as most, but miss very few pheasants when the opportunity arises. Can't say the same about doves, but I get my limit with about 2 boxes of shells.

I started to make my own stocks when I couldn't find off the shelfs to fit what I liked. BTW my 06 LOP is 13 1/2. My 3 shotguns are 15, my two muzzle loaders are 14, my .308 and 6.5 are 14 1/4.

IIFID,

You must have had friends from Texas that worked here on the pipeline! Thus being aware of our custom to dress our guests in womenswear. Alaska has always had more men than women, after all it's a man's country. So to alleviate that problem due to the influx of Texans and Oklahomans during the pipeline it was state law that all Texans were to wear dresses and the Okies claim once removing the dresses from the Texans as the night wore on, it wasn't much different than being at home. Kinda explains the intensity of your football rivarly. Thus it left the local women to us locals and everyone was happy and had a good time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Rumor has it that it was the Okies that started the saying "Everything's bigger in Texas!" But they were referring to Texan backsides after the Okies were done with them!

Just kidding, I'm not one to waste an entirely good insult as you delivered to Alaskans. And you will notice, I did this over a computer rather than when you actually had a shotgun in your hands......sounds like you might know how one of those scattergun works! All in fun, 1akhunter

1akhunter:

My reference was to Sitka Deer and a long running joke about him and our own Rick Bin. You would have to search the archives for details but the story has grown with time. Basically revolving around pink prom dresses and chloroform or something like that. At any rate, as best as we can get it down here, none of the participants were HIV positive and a good thing, too.

I can understand why the Okies, dumb as they are, would choose a good Texas butt over most Alaskan women, but, like you say, all in fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

IIFID,

Strange things pass as fun in this land that's home to the midnight sun!

I guess with your handle you should probably know something about shotguns. I miss shotgunning, I grew up hunting quail and by my early 20's was becoming an unconscious competent. I was fairly good but couldn't tell you why or tell someone else how to be. Doubles were common, triples occassionally, but I would have lost more money betting on triples than I would have won.

Just don't do much shotgunning here. IMO ptarmigan and grouse are just about as easily killed with a .22, albeit sitting actually ptarmies will flush and you can do a bit of shotgun work and now that I have a 10 year old boy seems like a good way to introduce him to the sport. I have an old Belgian made 20 ga. that needs some work, just a little bit awkward for him at this stage. Waterfowl here is great but coincides with Moose hunting and since one of my family's most requested dishes is moose meat and rice, you can guess where that leaves me on Sept 1. Are you into the dove thing, now there's a bird that will teach you to be quick on the trigger with a shotgun IMO. I did live one year in Houston doing construction and left when the town went bust, late 70's but Texas folks are great and I still enjoy good barbecue when I can get it. Anyway thanks for taking the jibe in the spirit it was intended and if anyone has any pix of SD or RB in that Prom dress it would be nice if theys posted it. One of the guides I used to work with always threatened to bring a pink skirt for the clients that complained about how hard our hunts were, thank god he never did it!

1ak:



I used to shoot a shotgun a good bit, but now am getting pretty rusty. However, I can usually not embarrass myself.

For me, shotgunning is like any other physical skill, it takes fairly regular practice or use to keep the level up and I'm not getting it. I've been intending to build a skeet range (shhhh, don't tell all my old trap shooting friends) on my place for the last several years, but it is one of those "roundtoits" that haven't come up yet. Being a semi-retired rancher and full time Daddy takes a helluva lot more time than one would think.



I was lucky to spend a good bit of time around a good friend of mine, who while not the best shotgunner, was an excellent coach of the sport who enjoyed helping kids and people learn to shoot (RIP Top), and by watching and listening to him, and, since I was competing on a national level, having my own thoughts as well, I became reasonably versed in both the fundamentals and minutiae of shotgunning. Like you, many more people can shoot a shotgun well than can impart the skill and knowledge to others. Coaching is fairly easy but you have to have the ability to express how to do it right and what they are doing wrong in terms they can relate to, while not overwhelming the new shooter with details.



I love dove hunting and NEED desperately to go to South America again to wear myself out on it. But, like you, I've got a 10 year old and am hoping to take him in a couple of years. His body couldn't stand the beating right now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And I'm beginning to worry about mine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Speaking of barbecue, we just BBQed, in pieces, a whole 200 pound boar wild hog, that I shot. Weather was cold, not too many showed up and we had a LOT of hog left over, but ummmmm, ummmmm, good.