I'm trying out the epoxy method you have described. When you sand the epoxy, what kind of sandpaper do you use? If you wet-sand, what do you use to moisten the paper?
Thanks

Rimshot

Good luck! I use the common 3M wet-or-dry in 320 with water for rough leveling of epoxy lumps on a block. I then go to 400 then 600. Try to stop before you need to re-epoxy.

If I dry sand I use Norzon (blue) paper... it does the best job IMO on epoxies and water-based varathanes. Adalox 271 is my favorite for dry-sanding oil finishes, but it cannot tolerate pressure or heat when you are doing it, so go slow.

I do not apply oil over a wet-sanded finish for at least 24 hours to reduce any chance of blush... in wet climates it may take longer. I also apply a little heat to speed drying after wet-sanding.

Does this help?
art

I'm not Sitka Deer, but I play him on television.



I am just putting finish on my epoxy sealed stock and here is what I am doing. It seems to be working just fine.



I used 100 Grit open paper for the initial sanding to knock it down relatively flat, but not all the way. Mainly just the big bumps and runs.

Then I went to 320 Garnet paper in an A weight paper. I always use a small (1" x 3/4" x 1/2" thick) sanding block to keep the flats straight and flat. Be careful not to go through the epoxy or you'll need to add more epoxy there and wait until it cures.

After the 320 gets it pretty flat and only a few small shiny spots show through, I went to 400 grit, and tried to get out all the little shiny spots showing where a pore is filled, but not up to the surface of the surrounding epoxy.

Once the finish is flat enough, I started to wet sand with Tru-oil and 600 grit wet or dry paper. Tung oil will work just as well and won't dry as fast. Just put a little in a plastic lid or small plate and dip the paper in it once in awhile so you aren't sanding dry. Be sure to keep using a sanding block. Do the whole stock, or as much as you can before the Tru Oil (or your preferred finish) dries, then wipe off the finish left on the stock. Do the entire stock, then let it dry until the next evening. Do it again with the 600 grit, let it dry again, the next night move up to 1000 grit wet or dry and do it again. Let it dry another day, do the 1000 grit again, wipe off as before. Then move up to 1500 or 1800 Grit wet or dry do it again. Repeat each wet or dry step and wipe all the excess finish off with a rag. Be careful to store the rags in a can of water or something afterward. Tung oil can spontaneously combust if left on a crumpled up rag in an enclosed area.



Once you get to this step, let it dry for at least a week- two weeks would be better. Knock it down with rottenstone if you feel it is necessary, then start to rub in your topcoat finish of Tru Oil, Permalyn, Ben Matte Modified Tung Oil finish, or whatever flavor you prefer. Once the luster is up to your satisfaction, let it set for a month before use to let the finish completely cure.



I have a "customer" who may not make it that long, but from the look of the stock at this point (the 1000 grit wet or dry sanding), I believe this one will be a winner. If he's patient, I think it will be worth his wait.

Art,

You beat me to it. The Norzon paper is a great idea, but I'm having a hard time finding it around here. I find the Garnet paper works okay, but needs to be cleaned off quite often as the sanding dust fills the pores. Being a more open grit, it seems to clean off and retain it's cutting ability much longer than wet or dry. Of course, I only use it dry and only until the finish is getting pretty flat, then the wet or dry paper comes out.
Hopefully, in a week or two Spike will post some pics of this stock with the final product on it. You might want some more of this wood! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />- Bob

Shiester
Once you leave the Stone Age, literally, with the paper and get with the Adalox or Norzon papers you will never look at another piece of garnet paper, I promise!!! It truly is orders of magnitude better in every dimension...

I bought about 100 blanks a short while back and with the influx of these nasty Turkish Circasian blanks coupled with my inability to find time to do anything has left me wood-rich and wood-poor depending on how you write the equation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.
art

Art,

Just because I'm such a nice guy I'll relieve you of your burden and take those nasty Turkish Blanks off your hands for the right price (that's the right price for me, not you) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm using the same technique to refinish my 25-06 stock, which was a shiny sprayed on epoxy finish and it looks fantastic so far. If it looks as good as I think it will, I think I will do all my stocks that have the epoxy finish this way. My .338 got way too many negative comments in Africa. I was accused of using it as a signal beacon by flashing the finish in the sun at the driver while we were on a stalk.

Since you've done the testing with the block thing with a bunch of different finishes, I'd like to know if you've tried this one yet. I was thinking about using a marine spar varnish (McCloskeys) thinned to waterproof the stock before putting the finish on. Got the idea from a guy on another site (AR) and from using this finish on my driftboat. Have you had an opportunity to try this finish with your moisture testing technique yet? I know my drift boat is coated with this marine varnish and has been amazingly waterproof since I finished it and put it in the water many years ago. Curious minds want to know.- Bob

Shiester
I have tested quite a few different varnishes, including McCloskey's and they all failed badly, particularly when compared to epoxy. It took over ten coats to build a layer that approached waterproof, but it looked like a coke bottle bottom atop the wood.

I have not seen a product that I have not tested, and constantly look for new ones. None compare to epoxy and superglue, which are the only two that actually seal a stock.

Solvents in finish leave pores when they evaporate. The pores are more than large enough for tiny little water molecules to go through.

One of the reasons spar varnish does well on your drift boat is that it allows the water that gets into the wood through the finish to get back out, once it is back on the trailer and out of the water. It does this very slowly in boat hull terms, but in stock terms it is quite rapid. Very little water is required to warp a stock. This is easy to understand if you look at the ratio of stock surface area to volume.

Oil finishes work ok as a stock finish because they do not seal anything and the water gets through the wood rapidly AND UNIFORMLY. That is why it is a bad idea to seal the barrel channel of an oil-finished stock with something like epoxy or cyanoacrylate which are extremely waterproof. The water getting through the surface finish will cause it to swell toward the barrel. In very dry country it causes the reverse, typically.
art

Thanks for the replies! Everything went fine. I am now using the method to finish a wooden sword for a friend.

On a different note, yesterday my dad taught me how to glass bed a rifle. It went smooth, cept' I did not use enough of the accraglass so today we had to do it over. Got enough in this time, in fact I think I used too much! We had that crap everywhere. It was coming out on both sides and even through the action screw hole. Ended up with it on the table, the floor, our clothes, it was hilarious.

rimshot,

That is why most of use AcraGel now. Been there, done that and have the ruined shirts and pants to prove it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />- Sheister

Ya, sure. But they wear like iron, by golly!

I sealed a stock with epoxy to harden a finger nail soft wood.It worked well.

rimshot
Funny you should mention a sword with epoxy... A good friend of mine is recognized world-wide as a serious swordsman. I made a few training swords for him and got to see the performance of them on slo-mo film and was thunder-struck!

A four-piece bamboo blade delivered to a victim's head would bend to 90 degrees, tight to the head and bruise the off-side shoulder on a level blow. A 3/4"x1 1/2" hickory blade will bend beyond 45 degrees, in the 1 1/2" dimension!

Seeing the epoxy finish, in chunks, leaving in every direction is telling. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thomas (Faulkenberry) is putting far more whoop (technical term, per the school of Stick) than most ever dream of, but it shows what to expect of any finish on a sword that will be seriously used...
art hunkered in the corner avoiding the sword of Thomas...

Art,
Have you tried the super glue as a sealer yet?? what is the technique used & how much do you buy? It comes in VERY small bottles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like the idea of the super glue (and the wood shrinkage that comes with it)

Mark

Mark
Have only thought about it so far... Have decided that when I do use it I will plan on putting the finish on before glassbedding the action and cheat on getting the height correct that way...

Some outfits sell superglue in 4 oz bottles and a water-thin formula. I believe that is where I would go with it and think it possible to get a stock from one bottle???

On the blocks I have used for testing it I had some problems getting the finish truly flat without quite a bit of work. I do weigh the blocks before and after to get a feel for added weight and "build" on the wood. The superglue is a lighter finish than the epoxy on my blocks...
art

Art,
Thank you for your thoughts on the super glue.

Second question. I have a read a couple of your threads on the epoxy finishing techniques. I am doing a laminate stock do I need to expoxy or super glue it?

Thank you,

Mark

Sitka Deer- Would be interested to know if you've done any testing yet with the product from Fit4Duty that is being used on baseball bats? Just curious. The thought of using superglue on a stock is interesting. I used some to 'reattach' a nearly missing part of a finger. Worked well, just didn't heal too pretty. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mark
The resin glue in a laminate stock will prevent water migration between layers, but that does not seal it from the outside. I would be inclined to use epoxy rather than superglue on a laminate just because I have no experience with the superglue on the resins used in laminating them.

It might work fine but I would want to be real certain before I tried it on a stock...

I am not familiar with the product Fit4duty is selling, though I have tested a number of finishes that are used as bat finishes. None of them were waterproof. Would always be willing to test another finish. I hope one day soon to get the data I have accumulated sorted and graphed for ease of use...
art

Art,
Thanks again for the ideas. I am slowly whittling away on this stock. I spent about an hour out there yesterday & got some serious saw dust flying. Bottom metal in now & am now working on the action. I may have to inlay some pretty wood around the floor plate as I got a little happy in taking off the wood there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mark

Sitka Deer

What kind of finish would you recommend for wooden swords?

Rimshot

Just an idea for experimentation: I work around a lot of Auto Body shops and have attended a paint school. Some of the auto body paints in current use are Catalyzed Cyanoacrylates. I beleive "Super Glue" is AlphaCyanoAcrylate. I have no idea what the alpha means but I know that some auto paints are chemically similar to superglue. Maybe someone on the forum can expand on my limited knowledge of this, but I know that there have been some local furniture manufactures that have used Auto clear for their finish. Flattening agents are available for some clearcoat paints. Maybe this is a way to use a "super-glue" type sealer. Can anyone add to this or explain why it wouldn't work?

Rimshot
If I remember correctly, the best I found was a blend of varathane and boiled linseed oil. Generally, any linseed oil that is applied to build a surface finish requires additional drier. What I do is apply it like an oil finish (heavy application, 10-15 minute soak and rub completely dry) and wait overnight between coats.

A surface film on a wood sword would likely fail due to excessive flexing in use. The varathane will give it a little extra hardness, though how much would be a good question on something like hickory or other good sword wood.

Most commercial "oil finishes" are a blend of resins and oil to end at the same place. I prefer to avoid them because they include a lot of wax, too. Spar varnish is a good choice to start with and mix an ounce or two with an equal volume of boiled linseed oil to start.

If it gets too sticky to rub off after a short wait, add a bit more oil for the next coat. If it does not appear to leave anything after the soak add a bit more varnish. Only a few coats should be needed.
good luck
art

Sitka- Thanks for the reply, was just curious.

Thanks for the advice on finishing wooden swords. I have another related question. My buddy and I are going to make another sword out of some poplar. The wood has a subtle kinda' fiddleback pattern that I would like to highlight. Do you have any ideas on how I can accent or draw attention to the fiddleback?
Thanks
Rimshot

Japenese "suge"... have seen it spelled about anyway you can imagine and a bunch I cannot! Carefully singe the wood until quite black. A hot fire with minimal flame and quite a bit of smoke will make it easier.

Like some kids with marshmallows that get them perfectly golden brown... The idea then is to polish the wood to take the less cooked long-grain back to a lighter color and the deeper black on the more end-grain sections stays dark.

It takes some practice to get it right, but that is the traditional way. Some poplars do very wierd things with commercial stains, so if you take the easy way out and go with stain do a test piece before hand or it might come out butt-ugly green...

If you decide to stain, I prefer oil-based stains, thinned a lot with the proper thinner (usually mineral spirits) and done in thin layers until it is exactly what you want...
art