Just when you think everybody is aware - WOW - in conversation with a good friend and frequent hunter this evening he remarked that his Rem 700 in .300 Win Mag sometimes fires on its own when the buttstook is bumped.

Having heard about this issue for quite some time - and about a Remington "fix" program in the past - it jolted me that he was not aware. I just went to the Remington website and they say NOTHING about this issue there. I was hoping to, at least, find a range of serial numbers for the known problem.

I want to see him get this fixed right away. Do any of you guys have the straight dope, a reference article or web site info on this problem? Do you know the range of serial numbers for suspect rifles? The Remington contact/process?

All good info will be appreciated. Thanks.

Usually, when a Remington 700, or, any other rifle fires on it's own when the buttstock is bumped, it's an indication that the trigger has been messed with, which if true, will usually void any warranty. The problem may require a simple cleaning and adjustment which can easily be done outside a factory setting by a competent gunsmith. However, if you wish to contact the company, here is their info.

http://www.remington.com/pages/our-company/our-company/company-info.aspx

Sounds like a lack of sear and or a heap of debris.

Just throw the factory trigger in the nearest lake, and get an aftermarket.

Don't throw them in the lake, send them to me. I've adjusted scads of them down to 2-3 pounds with little effort. If your rifle fires when you bump the stock I'll wager somebody has tried to adjust the trigger that didn't know what they were doing and have too little sear engagement.

Yes....not enough sear for sure

My money's with Mickey on this one.

Guys - thanks for the insights and suggestions. Although aware of the problems that come from crud, bad wear and/or misadjustment issues you have noted, it is good to be reminded.

This is a situation where the bolt components and trigger/sear mechanism on this Remington are spotless clean, and the factory set trigger has not been altered or adjusted in any way. I doubt that more than 50 rounds have been fired in this hunting rifle.

Was I dreaming, or did I not - more than once - read about a factory production problem of this sort with a certain series of Remington 700s? If not, I apologize for the distraction. But, if so, does anyone know the serial number range of the affected 700s?

Malm - thanks for the cite - will go there as well.

CCCC: The remingtons firing when slamming the butt down, or flipping off the safety is very real. This is well documented.

The last 700 trigger I looked at had the sear engagement screw locked somehow so it couldn't be moved without stripping the head. That was a CDL about 2 yrs ago. I was able to adjust that trigger to a very smooth 2 1/2 lbs that was absolutely safe. No matter how hard I slammed the bolt or bumped the rifle it wouldn't drop the firing pin.

dogcatcher223 - thanks for the reply and the confirmation. Are you aware of any documentation (articles, recall, etc.) wherein Remington has acknowledged this problem with their 700?

This evening I checked with my buddy who owns this one - he has purchased a .270 now and has has assured me that he will not load that Remington again until the problem is fixed. He did confirm that it has fired unexpectedly three times as he has disengaged the safety and twice when the buttstock has been bumped. I am going to do my best to make certain that it gets fixed.

If you or anyone else here can cite a Remington company reference to this problem, I will appreciate it. Thanks again,

http://www.remington.com/pages/news.../remington-model-700-and-model-40-X.aspx

Here is some reading material:

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defective-Remington700.php


There are some errors in the article though. I had an X-mark trigger from 2007 that fired when the safety was flipped off. The trigger had been turned to 4.5lbs. My other two M700's wear Rifle Basix triggers, and so far so good.

TXRam and dogcatcher223 - thanks so much - exactly what I need to get this problem solved. The campfire and you guys are so good for this kind of stuff.
Thanks again.

Forget the attorney, what you need to get the problem solved is a competent gunsmith who can clean and adjust your existing trigger. The only problem with the factory trigger is peoples ignorance and neglect.

+one what malm said

Ed

Maybe you guys didn't noticed that I posted a link to the issue posted on Remington's website??? Which is exactly what he asked for . . .

That's a pretty volatile statement. I would like to see a Ruger trigger do that when flipping off the safety...

The Remington trigger design is crap, along with that stupid bolt release button.

I have seen EVERY type of factory trigger fail, Ruger included. And the clear majority can be traced to stupidity, or, neglect.

Malm - I appreciate your sharing your expertise and intent to give good advice with this - but you may be working with some misconceptions. I had/have no intent to get involved in anything legal or contact an attorney. This rifle belongs to a good friend who is an excellent hunter but not highly savvy with things mechanical - including rifles. My aim is to get it fixed properly, and soon.

In case you missed an earlier post, careful examination shows the trigger/sear/bolt areas to be spotless clean - and no alteration/adjustment from factory new. I have sucessfully adjusted many, many triggers but do not wish to fool with this one due to a well-known original malfunction of some of these from the factory. My preference is to help by having the manufacturer take responsibility

The info folks posted here will enable the owner to contact Remington, have them deal with their acknowledged mistakes and arrange for it to be fixed - by a competent gunsmith - who can correct the problem with the factory trigger - a problem created by ignorance and neglect by people - people at Remington.

Thanks again for your willingness to assist.

CCCC, don't worry. Anytime someone criticizes Remington and their crap triggers, the groupies come out of the woodwork and proclaim it is user error. Obviously the courts found otherwise, especially when the designer himself acknowledges there is an issue.

Thanks dogcatcher223 - I understand and appreciate what you say there. Being one, I realize that it takes all kinds of characters to bring out the differing views on this site. Even after what may be too many years dealing with firearms issues, some of the posts here sometimes cause me to step back a bit and wonder. Looks like this issue is coming to a good solution - thanks again for your help.

Groupie? Hardly. Your criticism of the 700 trigger would be more believable if you had an actual first hand, working knowledge of the design rather than posting a link to an attorney's site to support your case against it.

The problem with the trigger isn't the design, it's idiots who don't understand the ramifications of tampering with a fire control system they don't understand. The problem is people who try to make something do what it wasn't designed to do, and then blame everyone else when it fails.

CCCC's "friends" trigger may very well have a problem, but his solution isn't going to be found here on the internet, or perusing through court cases of a law firm who specializes in product liability suits against the firearms industry. It will likely be found, simply, by contacting the company directly. If the company fails to address the problem, then he has other options. But since the trigger doesn't have a design "flaw", it can easily be corrected by a competent gunsmith if the owner chooses.

I'm with the gunsmiths on this issue.

I don't believe that there is anything inherently wrong with the design of the Walker trigger.

If it alleviates any concerns your friend has then just replace the trigger with one of the aftermarket ones.

Then why does Walker himself acknowledge there IS a problem with his trigger design? This schit isn't made up. I have seen these triggers fail firsthand.

And why is there such a good aftermarket for remington triggers if the factory ones are so good? I don't think Jewell, Rifle basix, Timney and Shilen would bother offering aftermarket triggers for the M700 if there weren't a demand.

I love how every gunsmith gets a hardon for these posts, and thinks the trigger just hasn't been adjusted by them, the world's greatest trigger doctor, LOL.

Mr. Walker claimed there is the POTENTIAL for a problem if the trigger were neglected or maladjusted.

I was looking at some 1975 copies of Rifle magazine and there was an article in there about modifying the 700 trigger for target shooting.
The majority of these makers epoxied the disconnector to the trigger rather than just have it float as designed.

I don't know if this is feasible but I thought it was interesting that so many glued the disconnector.

It is a complicated question with many answers. There IS a fault, but it usually doesn't show itself in a bump situation, though it can.
http://www.gunsmiths.com/articledetail.php?id=87

Malm - all is OK - just try to comprehend what has been written. Remington has admitted and owned that trigger problem, and it had NOTHING to do with any post-production adjustment or alteration. Again - nobody on this end is dealing with any lawyers. My buddy is in contact with Rem and they will get it fixed.

There are gunsmiths, and there are gunsmiths. Some make triggers better, some screw them up. The latter make more work for the former. It's all economics.

CCCC, go to: http://remington700.tv/# and click on Remington's Response to CNBC's "Under Fire" for the rest of the story. Do some first hand, independent investigating on your own before joining dogcatcher223 on the "bad trigger" bandwagon. Don't believe everything you hear or read on the internet.

And then CCCC, show me where, as you say, "Remington has admitted and owned that trigger problem".

Malm
No good deed goes unpunished...

Malm - thanks for the link. I had already watched that video on the Campfire site, but I went and watched it again this evening after seeing your post. It is a very well constructed propaganda piece by Remington - part of their array of sales pieces - and in many ways it is impressive - probably convincing to many. But, it is their big $$$ effort to quiet little folks who never will produce a flashy video with many "experts" talking about their product. Little people who, in some cases, have experienced real and actual malfunctions with a certain series of the 700 safety/trigger mechanisms. Remington never denied that fact.

At their current website they artfully dodge actually saying that they admit to a failure, but they do explain the type of lock setup where the malfunctions have ocurred (in a certain time period) and they give instructions for having them deal with those problems. Send in your rifle.

To your suggestion, I did some more of my own investigation and talked with a close relative who worked for the parent company and who, for many years, directly handled their Remington accounts with many distributors. Through this, I have some hard data about what Remington knew and did. Past tense.

I have zero gripe with Remington - I own/use several of their M700 rifles quite a bit - never a problem for me, even with a safety/trigger mechanism. Further, I have now witnessed the faulty discharge first hand and have done a careful inspection of the involved safety/sear/trigger setup. That finding was reported here earlier.

So, it's not just a matter of ignorant mob mentality, urban legend, or "where there is smoke, there must be fire". How many other single rifle models have suffered this specific trigger history to the point where the manufacturer - many years later - is taking them back and fixing them? That's all I was looking for - a way for my pal to get them to fix the problem with his rifle. Seems that maybe I have succeeded, thanks to some help from guys on this site.

Although I appreciate your interest and efforts to assist, it is difficult to understand why you are so certain that this specific problem with this one rifle (that you have never seen) must be a dirty or corrupted or mis-adjusted trigger setup that would be better fixed by some unspecified gunsmith rather than one employed by Remington. Haven't figured that one out - yet.

Then do whatever it is you intend to do.

You're not likely to be convinced, by gunsmiths you never met, that the Walker trigger is fine (5 million plus sold).

You continue to believe as you will and the 5 million Walker triggers will continue to work as they have always done.

With that many examples of anything you can expect to hear some negative reports.

The millions of well satisfied 700 owners just continue to put rounds down the tube.

Get an aftermarket trigger if it will give you the warm fuzzies.

As for you castigating Remington for producing a "propaganda" piece you need to look at the other side.

They have money, they have a captive and gullible media, and they have packs of shyster lawyers who would like nothing more than to line their pockets with the dollars of shooters and hunters worldwide.

I think I'll side with Remington on this issue.

Feel free to disagree.

What?!?!? Remington with all their lawyers would continue to build an unsafe trigger for how long and in how many copies? Whne they clearly knew it all along?!?! I am shocked!

And what will he get from Remington to replace his "faulty" trigger? I am guessing another OEM Remington trigger...

And one which is not as good as the "defective" Walker trigger it replaces.

On the money. -Al

The funny thing about reading all the dumpphuck Remington trigger posts, especially from I can never get a [bleep] thing right dogcatcher, is that I can make damn near every trigger do what folks say is the problem with Remington.

I've had 1 fire when the safety was taken off, and it weren't a Remington trigger and have seen another drop and that weren't a Remington trigger either.

There are cheaper ways to get a X-Mark Pro than paying shipping both ways and Remington $20...

I'd put the coin towards an aftermarket trigger, if I was hellbent on replacing the original. No way would I pay to put an X-Mark Pro on something.

The only rifle that I personally know of that fired when the bolt was lifted was an old Mauser that a friend had on loan from a man he worked for. I was not there and only know what he said happened. I have been around a lot more Remington 700 rifles than old Mauser's too. miles

Going on and on as if someone's "expert" gunsmith opinons have been shunned. Is that injured expert ego, or what?

Just the facts, M'aam.
Never said that a competent gunsmith could not fix the problem.
Never "castigated" at all - just noted propaganda when I saw it.
Never talked about Rem continuing to buld zillions of unsafe triggers - just noted "malfunctions with a certain series of the 700 safety/trigger mechanisms" and "malfunctions have ocurred in a certain time period" - see reference on their own website.
Never said a mite about the Walker trigger, per se. Said that I own and use such rifles without troubles.
Never said anything about replacing the mechanism or looking for an aftermarket fix.

Just was looking for a way to have Rem fix his rifle. As one gunsmith said above "I can make damn near every trigger do what folks say is the problem with Remington." I think that he is probably correct, and maybe a good reason to avoid some "gunsmiths".

I don't know any of the posters, but the great gunsmiths I have known did/do not communicate with their customers or the public as some of you have done here. Takes all kinds, I suppose.

Funny, and pathetic too, that you call Remingtons response to a media hit job propaganda yet say nothing about the motives, agenda, or propaganda put out by the other side.

Your talking about the Walker trigger (RWT)whether you know it or not CCCC.
And how the hell do you expect Remington to fix the Walker trigger without merely replacing it with an inferior X-Mark Pro?

The alleged "problem" is inherent in the RWT and nothing short of replacing it will remove that offensive connector bar.

The RWT has been on all 700s (and 721's 722's 725's M7's and others) from intro in 1962 to sometime in the 90's when they replaced it with the first X-mark trigger.
That is a whole lot of guns!


BTW Steelhead is not a gunsmith but is instead a vastly experienced hunter and rifleman.

One poster suggested that I look at the Remington video and "investigate" for myself - so, I did, again - and still it is propaganda. Have never seen any of the "stuff put out by the other side" as you put it - and that may be propaganda as well. Don't sense any pathos.

You say "the other side" - I don't see or have a "side" here. The rifle malfunctions, dangerously. It is NOT mine. The fellow wants Rem to fix it - have tried to assist him.

Even without guidance from the experts here, I very well understand that trigger setup and, if it were mine, I very well might do something other than send it to Rem.

As are many on this site, no doubt Mr. Steelhead is a a vastly experienced hunter and rifleman, and apparently an OK guy. Apparently, he also works on triggers.

Rather than claiming any knowledge or expertise, rather than using insulting rhetoric, and by simply asking for assistance with this thread, one seems to have invited some mind-readers and odd compensating behavior onto the screen.

All well and good. I have hope. On another occasion, one of these knowledgeable persons probably will help me learn something new and good. And, I will be grateful.

CCCC

Your buddy is right to not load the gun until the problem is fixed.

He has three options:
gunsmith clean/inspect/adjust
send to Remington
replace with aftermarket.

Of these three, sending it to Remington will probably be the least satisfactory-slow, expensive, and the trigger you get back will have its own issues.

I think replacing it will probably be the choice your buddy makes. People who have a bad trigger have a hard time trusting it going forward, even if logic says it is now fine. He can sell the trigger for $40, and recoup some of the cost of the replacement.

I do agree with the smiths that a proper adjustment and cleaning will probably solve the physical problem, but can do little for the trust issue.

I guess I fail to see what you hoped to accomplish with this thread.
What have you accomplished?

You were given all the options your friend has in the first page.

Have him pick one and get it done. But send that old junky RWT to MColeman, he'd like it.

Don't act all puzzy hurt here either, nobody called you a dumphuck or anything, they merely disagreed with your characterization of the RWT as unsafe. Grow some thicker skin man.

I agree with Utah that trust in that trigger will not be regained.

Thanks, utah708. Concise - appreciated.
nsagam My guess would be that you are probably an OK guy in person, but one can't offer much help with what you cannot read. Follow the thread flow - good info provided at first - then the attacking "expert" arguments appeared - some rather crude. Have to chuckle about your gratuitous mind-reading anaylsis of my psyche - and skin condition - as well as the eventual "trust" of the guy that owns the gun. Since you can read minds, read this: "----------------" !!!

I read fine and you are a whiny bitch.

You were given great info and you chose to ignore it and act all puzzy hurt.
I really don't care if your feelings are hurt.

Your writing made it very clear that your puzzy was getting irritated, no mind reading involved, you threw it in our face.

Carry on.

No, I'm a prick in person too.

Go back and read the first posts after dogcatcher chimes in... Suddenly CCCC (the C word to the fourth power?) has it all figured out, thanking him for providing nothing of value and no answer to actually fixing the problem...

Makes the subsequent whine funnier... but raises the obvious question of orchestration...

DC223 is a friend of mine on here and we simply have different views on the RWT.

CCCC do put out an epic whine and it was indeed funny.

Mr Belk
Out of morbid couriosity, how much of your income, comes from being the "expert" witness in lawsuits against the various gun manufacturers? For some reason 50% comes to my mind.

Good question.

Summation of the wiseguy posts:

1. Being a "Groupie" for whomever is great, unless someone points it out - then it is to be denied.

2. Unless a guy fully agrees and does as the Groupies declare (sinful to not worship the RWT), they are compelled to group henpeck - seems innate.

3. "Know it all" crude speech and name-calling are great and gentlemanly - efforts toward intelligent discourse and polite speech are "whiney".

Interesting universe, there. Although too time-consuming, it was interesting riding along and watching some of you expose yourselves. Thanks, though - did get the info we needed.

Yep, you exposed yourself to be the small little whiny man you are.

Asked a question, didn't like the answer, whines.

Hey, I'm not the only one to notice.

Have a great day Sir.

\


This is what happens when a bitch don't swallow.

CCCC
Cu*t, Cu(t, Cu^t, Cu&t.

I've got a crisp $50 says that not only did he vote for Obama, but he also wears velcro sneakers. No one could be such an idiot on purpose.

What he said..

I won't take that bet.

He do do an epic whine (which isn't really whining it is intelligent discourse)

I'm thinking he should hold said rifle to his head to verify the trigger has been adjusted correctly. I'm sure his kids and wife would appreciate it.

Intelligent Groupie Discourse. Wrong on all counts. Send your $50 to the Campfire's Deserving Veteran Project #2.

Wonder why it took the rifle going off 5 times befor he decided he had a problem?

So you're purposefully being an idiot then?

I'm thinking Steelhead was right on all counts but he gave you too much credit.

Not according to the text your wife just sent....

Well, he does run with the likes of C squared...

I believe CCCC's just a plaintiff attorney looking for more plaintiffs or expert witnesses. I'm in the "they don't go off by themselves unless somebody Has their finger on the trigger or monkeys with the trigger or never cleans it" camp. I've had way too many fully-functional Rem 700's to believe the folks that stand to get more money from a lawsuit if we believe them. And if they were following the golden rule at all times, nobody gets shot even if the gun does pull its own trigger. I know......I know.......what about the guy 5 miles away that gets hit by a falling bullet? I guess if that happens, he's either the unluckiest MF'er in the world or it was just his time. You pick which one makes you feel warmer.

I've been thinking he's a lawyer too.

Now quit being a groupie!

exactly....There is no problem with Remington triggers.

From the Campfire Remington video thread:

Originally Posted By: Seafire
I have a Model 700 Long Action that is one of those culprits that has gone off on its own... mine has done it 3 times since I bought it in 1980...Its an ADL.. the last time it did that, a friend was unloading it and it shot a brand new Chevy pickups custom bed and paint job... Since then, I rebarreled it and have used it as a single shot, and pretty much for range duty and a small amount of varmint shooting...I also had the chance to buy a trigger than someone took out to replace with a Timney.. and it hasn't done it since.. however I have never been on the door step whining to Remington...but it has motivated me to buy Savage, Winchester or Ruger over Remingtons... but on a rifle that has done that, I think it is the responsibility of the owner to send it back to Remington, or repair the problem on their own...the first time mine went off, it was over my shoulder and the barrel pointed at the ground and the bullet hit about an inch behind my heel...that shook me up...so I returned it to Remington and they said it was in specs and nothing was wrong... but because of that problem of those 3 times, I admit, I have no intention of selling it and sticking someone else with the problem...


Originally Posted By: JMR40
Saw the video and read the transcript months ago. It was a carefully scripted version prepared by Remington lawyers who did a masterful job of not quite telling the whole truth. Remingtons have been doing this since the 1960's, long before CNBC existed to have an agenda. If anyone watched the CNBC program and learned anything new they are either new to shooting, or have been living under a rock for 30+ years.

The pre-2007 Remington trigger is a flawed design. I've seen a perfectly clean 700 with a factory trigger drop the firing pin with no pull of the trigger. While it is extremely rare, and more likely to happen with a dirty or modified trigger, it can happen at any time to any 700. Remington knows this and has simply been deflecting the issue by trying to blame the shooters.


Originally posted by Jorge:
You guys are wasting your time by providing not only facts but personal experiences with the 700 aficionados. Whilst the chances are extremely slim of an AD and or the rest of the 700's shortcomings, you'll just be labeled a Remington hater. I own ONE 700, a 22-250 heavy barrel SS varmint rifle. Superbly accurate, but I use it exclusively on ground hogs from a fixed position and as a single shot mostly. jorge

You've located possible plaintiffs for your case.

Congratulations?

Pretty sure Jorge isn't going to be showing up in court.

Seafire either.

JMR, maybe.

Enjoy!

He is not an attorney. He is a retired educator--a very likeable and knowledgeable fellow who lives in a remote part of Catron County, NM. I have never asked him why his handle is "CCCC", but I suspect that it is because he lives in a place that he calls Casi Cielo in Catron County. I have no idea about his politics but I do know that he is one of the small circle of friends that keep Ken Howell safe and sane.

He posted looking for information and got the usual crap that comes sailing in when a thread goes adrift. Steelhead has had a bad week and I am willing to cut him some slack on his comments, but a couple of you guys should look in the mirror--the assh*le is you.

I'll accept being an arsehole if CCCC accepts that he wasn't looking for answers when he rejected sound advice from working gunsmiths and accepted the words of others who didn't even provide a legitimate answer.

He had an agenda.

Your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I will ask him about it the next time I see him.

I'm not a gunsmith, and don't know a thing about this issue other than I've seen it come up in threads from time to time. In my opinion, charging someone $20 + shipping and handling cost can hardly be called "owning a problem." Notice, I didn't make any assertion on the veracity of this trigger issue. But if I wanted my rifle fixed, and the manufacturer was going to charge anyways, I'd let a competent local gunsmith handle it.

mudhen, thanks for your kind words. Not expected but much appreciated, and you probably know how much good they will do. Some know that I am about the farthest thing from a lawyer - have never sued or even threatened to sue anyone, and hope I never need to. But, that does not keep inconsiderate and ignorant folks from leaping to unfounded conclusions.

The purpose of this thread was EXACTLY as stated, regardless of any interpretations by "groupies" (somebody here used that term - kinda like it). Thanks to those who contributed good stuff in a good way. And, thanks to a smart, kindly and generous professional on this site, have an excellent solution for my friends faulty Remington. Grateful for that.

So, can't think of anything to "admit". Have been exposed to enough challenges to know how to sort most of the pearls from the pebbles, and how to process data. Some knowledgeable folks present their stuff in an effective (and wholesome) way, others have good stuff to present but something within them gets in the way of their being acceptable. Reminds me of varieties of teachers.

In trying to look for the BEST in people, I deplore useless vulgarity, dumb assumptions, unfounded criticism and ad hominem nastiness. The two guys that turned out to be the biggest jerks in this thread must be otherwise nice and knowledgeable people who have contributed well to other situations - have seen other posts where they seemed in much better form. Maybe they had a bad day, maybe they just don't like some people, maybe ??. No gripes here. Tabula rasa.

Pearls, and pebbles. Time to be DONE.

You're full of $hit.

Funny--when I saw that you had put up a post, I thought the same about you, but couldn't resist looking. You didn't disappoint me. You're going back on ignore along with your alter ego.

"DONE" would have been good before you even posted the OP.

All you have to do is search and find that this topic has been beaten to death. A lot of members here are sick and tired of it and a search is VERY SIMPLE. I resisted this thread for a long time and finally read it out of boredom. I rely on my own experiences before I believe any plaintiff attorney or any plaintiff that said something happened and has a financial stake in what they said happened. I feel the hugest of empathy for any person that has accidentally shot another person. But blame needs to lay where blame is due.......and copping out by saying a finger was not on the trigger and the rifle just fired by itself doesn't cut it with me.....because of my experience with the rifle in question. Unfortunately, I've never been selected for one of the juries.......so my opinion is just that. And we all know what they say about opinions. But the fact is that anybody can file a lawsuit for any reason....all they have to have is a filing fee.

It is funny (funny queer....not funny haha) that the gunsmith that is an expert in these cases has made tons of money testifying against Remington. If it wasn't him.......it would have been somebody else in search of the almighty dollar. That is the problem with this nation right now........the dollar rules and not much else matters any more.

<END OF SOLILOQUY>

Out of curiosity I looked at your profile. I noticed that you have three "UBB Buddies", one of which is "BossLady". That tells me all that I need to know. Are you really Larry?

Never been accused of that before. I don't use the "buddy" system, but I'm guessing anybody can make you their buddy without your permission. Care to try it?

It may be because I tried to piss him off one time in one of his classified ads. I believe it worked if I recall correctly.

ETA: I believe I had that piece of schitt (bosslady) on ignore at one time. One of the very few that I have ignored.

You may be right about the buddy thing--I have never paid much attention to it. If so, I apologize. If I were you, I would edit your profile, but it's your profile and I am not you.

Nonetheless, people post questions on here daily that may have been answered many times. That doesn't make them dumb or stupid. The search engine on the campfire leaves a lot to be desired.

For those that have not seen it (or who have forgotten to bookmark it), this works pretty darned good: http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=016407629494559605640:xponie3lspc

I cannot edit it. Those are members that have chosen me to be their buddy.....not the other way around. I haven't chosen any buddies........just because I don't know much about it and don't really have time for it anyway. You can try to remove your buddies and see if it works. I can't figure out a way to do it.

I don't believe I did anything that could have offended anyone here. If I have, I'm sorry. Not my intention. The way that CCCC pursued the argument hit me wrong as it did other members here....obviously. And the reason it hit me wrong is because it's been cussed and discussed ad nauseum. But I guess that's my problem.

ETA: I believe the real expert here is Mickey Coleman, who posted early on. He adjusted one of my triggers down to about 2 lbs. It is awesome and the old Remington trigger has very much potential to be just that if adjusted by someone that knows what they're doing.

Boss lady is still around in the guise of interthem and still dispensing pearls of incorrect wisdom as recently as a few hours ago.

Check out the Lee Collet Die thread by TannerGun in the big game reloading forum.

He didn't get a single thing right.

Ha. That proves I'm not him......and he is not me!

I have a Rem 700 280ai with a factory untouched trigger that fires with regularity when the safety is flipped to "off."
It has happened about 6 times to me since I bought the gun from here on the fire.
The gun wasn't loaded in any of the instances.

It's a gorgeous southpaw KS, but the trigger is a disaster waiting to happen.
I'll be chitcanning it for a timney or jewel before Spring.

Not trying to be an ass.....but how do you know the trigger's untouched if you bought it second-hand....or third-hand??

Here's a thread on the plaintiffs' so-called expert for those that want to know.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6203499/all/Who_is_Jack_Belk

I never once had an AD with that rifle and I used it extensively for several years.

Wonder what changed.

I know I never adjusted the trigger but cannot say if it was touched before I owned it.

You know I'd be more than happy to buy that rifle back from you Broomd!

I miss it.

Sorry Broomd, I now realize that you were not referring to the KS I sold you but another one entirely.

You're a KS slut it would seem!

No problem.

Well, the owner told me the gun was close to new and that the trigger is untouched. I have no reason to doubt him; it is a nice piece and looks practically new.

No Ken, not your 270 KS; the SS 280ai is the 'lil stinker...

I'm glad that it isn't that sweet 270 KS I sold you. I would feel badly if I had sold you a dangerous rifle.

I'll still buy it back anytime you want to trip it but you already know that.

Take care.

You're still a KS slut!

Yeah, guilty as charged. Hey, we all have our guilty pleasures.

That KS .270 is a hell of a rifle...I pull her out of the safe periodically and we reminisce our successful 2011 hunts together...

Probably one of the best rifles to come out of their custom shop along with the Alaskan Wilderness Rifle. On day I'll find either one in 280.

You're still full of $hit.

Where are the moderators to remove this garbage??

Dunno - mods may be groupies.

Good Grief.

What did Mike Walker say when he acknowledged said issue?



Casey

What moderators? Pretty much self-moderated.

Let�s take a look at some of the objections:

"It�s an anti-gun conspiracy / CNBC is biased."

Yes, CNBC is biased, and their story contains slanted perspectives and misleading information. What did you expect? However, just because the presentation is biased doesn�t necessarily mean that the core issue isn�t true.

"It must be caused by people fiddling with their trigger adjustments."

No doubt some of the problems are indeed due to improper adjustments. However there are lots of rifles that have adjustable triggers that don�t have anywhere near as many complaints. Something else is going on.

So let's take a look at what it is:

Here's the Remington 700 trigger cocked:



The Remington 700 trigger is a bit unusual in that it uses an extra piece, the trigger connector, to refine the trigger pull. The tiny red area is the engagement between the connector and the sear.

When the trigger is pulled, the connector goes forward and returns to this position:


For this trigger to operate safely it is essential that when the rifle is cocked the trigger connector return 100% to the proper position, pushed there by only the light weight trigger spring.

See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.

With all this in mind, let's take a look at a couple more objections:

�I�ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.�

Good for you. This problem doesn�t happen very often, simply because it�s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger. But this is not a question of a few defective guns; it�s a design weakness that could affect any of the millions of guns with this trigger. If you haven�t had a problem, it�s because nothing has worked its way into your trigger.

Yet.

"This only happens on dirty or neglected guns."

This is more likely to happen on a dirty or neglected gun. However, a grass seed or a bit of pine needle could make this happen on an otherwise pristine gun.

"No one would have been hurt if they followed The Rules of Gun Safety."

True enough. You should always treat your gun as though it could go off at any moment. That doesn't excuse making a rifle that actually does it.


Serious discussion welcomed. Juvenile name calling will be cheerfully ignored.

So you accept Belk's theory of debris... Yet he admitted under oath he had never seen it happen... Remember, Belk is the guru...

So, please explain the course a piece of debris as large as a grass seed would take to get betwixt connector and trigger body. There is no room at the sear and less at the bottom... otherwise it is full width of the housing.

Now, if that "weak" trigger weight spring cannot move just the connector back into place how do you expect it to move the entire trigger because that is the "fix" so many use for the "problem."

As I said: "This problem doesn�t happen very often, simply because it�s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger." So I agree with you that it's difficult for debris to work it's way in.

That doesn't mean that it can't happen. The area of contact between the connector and the sear is so small that anything - rust, old grease, ice, grit - can cause it to fail. There's a world of difference between difficult and impossible.

Perhaps you'd like to explain the physics of the force field that makes it impossible for anything to get in there.



"Weak" is a relative term. If there are no obstacles in the way, the spring is plenty strong enough to move the connector and the trigger shoe back into place. However, it is nowhere near strong enough to force any debris out between the connector and the shoe, and as you have pointed out, there's nowhere for it to go.

In the literally hundreds of "Walker Triggers" that I've completely disassembled, inspected and serviced over my many years in this business, I've never found ice, rust or grit between the connector and the trigger lever. What I've found in triggers that haven't been "tampered" with, is old, gummy oil residue and preservatives surrounding the sides of the connector, holding it out of place. Routine MAINTENANCE and the use of a bore guide to prevent solvents and oils from finding their way into the trigger housing IS THE FIX for this.

But the clear majority of AD's that have made their way to this shop are the result of a lack of maintenance, along with reduced sear engagement and reduced trigger spring settings, caused by tampering with the factory settings by folks who don't know what they are doing.

natman
You gave two examples of debris you thought could possibly make it into the space between connector and trigger. Both are significantly larger than the available openings.

A build-up of grease and such is possible, but when you use impossible things to describe the potential problem it weighs heavy on your argument...

There are a lot of other holes in your argument as well...

The fact that you're forced to split hairs over the size of the debris doesn't do much for your argument. Yes, an entire grass seed, husk and all, is too big to fit. It doesn't change the problem.

If you think there are other holes in the argument, point them out.

You make the big dramatic ploy something will surely get into your trigger someday... I am thinking mine will be fairly safe due to minor routine maintenence... and mine are the automatically suspect kind because all have new trigger weight springs and have not been factory-adjusted.

Your argument about the grass seed or pine needle noted it could happen on an "otherwise Prisitine gun"... And I call bullshit on that.

You also claim if you have not had a problem it is because nothing has worked its way into the trigger... but that is not what the evidence has shown. Evidence has shown Bubba is the number one culprit, fingers in the trigger guard or on the trigger when the gun goes off is right in there... And stuff in the trigger has been real hard make happen and has never been made to happen on any trigger tested by Belk that was involved in an incident.

I also love the usual argument that the trigger housing traps debris inside... without getting to the concept it also keeps it out. No trigger is perfect and all can be tricked to fail. And I am not suggesting you used the claim about the trigger housing trapping junk.

natman.....How many Remingtons that were untampered with have you personally witnessed discharging without a finger on the trigger?

Instead of spending so much time trying to figure out various ways to trick a perfectly good trigger into accidentally firing, more effort could be spent on real issues, such as, why it is possible to reach the trigger of a rifle while the muzzle is accidentally pointed at your head.

I have a Remington BDL in 264 mag I was at the shooting range and flipped off the safty and it fired up through the roof very lucky I had it pointed up.
Took it to the gunsmith and he looked at it and told me to clean the oil out of the trigger so I did and this has never happened again.

natman, in your illustration of the "uncocked" trigger, you depict a gap, shown in red, between the connector and the trigger lever. That gap is only present for a split second, from the moment the sear drops, to the minute the finger is removed from the trigger lever, at which point, on a properly maintained and adjusted trigger, the trigger lever rotates forward, due to spring tension against the connector, thereby closing the gap, or red area.

You can call it a red, red rose if you want. It won't make the problem go away.



As I said in the original post, Bubba-ing and trigger mishandling are just as possible on other rifles as on Walker triggered Remingtons. And yet reports of unintended discharges are far more common on Remingtons than any other rifle I can think of.

Why do you think that is?



But you just did, two sentences ago. ????

For the third time, I said, right from the first post, it's difficult for debris to get into the trigger. But it's still possible, and if it does, there's nowhere for it to go and only the weak trigger spring to push it out. Other rifles have much more pressure on the sear/trigger interface and room for the debris to get pushed out of the way.

It's a question of whether you examine the evidence and come to a conclusion or decide what you want the conclusion to be and bend the evidence to fit.

Cause there are more than 5 million of them made.

First, let me answer your question: exactly none.

Now let me ask you a question: What possible difference does it make?

Unlike some internet posters, I am perfectly capable of analyzing data outside my personal experience and coming to a rational conclusion. I've never slept with Liv Tyler, but I expect it would be fun, my lack of personal experience not withstanding.

A good point, but there have been millions of Model 70s made and the problem is virtually unheard of with them. The number of Remingtons with problems is far greater, even in proportion to the numbers produced.

As far as I'm concerned the Walker trigger is a poor design. Car makers come up with clunkers, airplane makers do it now and then, there's no reason gun makers are immune.

Feel free to copy the illustrations and show how this works, because what your saying doesn't make sense to me as written. There's no spring pushing the top of trigger shoe forward in the manner you describe, although there is one pushing the connector towards the back.

Poor design or not, the 700 trigger is the most monkeyed with trigger too, and I believe that is the point of all these "accidental discharges".

Seriously? If you are this far away from understanding the Walker Trigger I will leave you with your delusions.

In your illustration of the "uncocked" trigger, the top portion of the connector has come to rest against the sear. Even though the top of the connector has come to a stop, the connector is still moving via the trigger spring and will continue to move until the bottom end of the connector can no longer move, which, because the bottom of the connector sits below the trigger pin, won't occur until the top of the trigger lever pivots forward and comes to rest against the connector which will close the gap.

But if you are having a hard time following this, then take your own "Walker" trigger and test it.

Make sure your gun is empty and pointing in a safe direction. Cycle the bolt and then dry fire the rifle. With the trigger in the fired position, take your finger and push the rear of the trigger shoe forward. It should move. Now release your finger and the shoe should return under it's own steam, or, with the aid of the trigger spring. If it doesn't move, then the trigger spring is set too light.

Pull the trigger apart and study it. What I wrote should make sense.

The difference is.........I've already said what the difference is. Re-read the thread. Financial motive is overwhelming. That and the opportunity to cop-out of taking personal responsibility for one's own actions are why civil lawsuits such as these get filed. How many responsible shooters and hunters have never had a problem? Also......I'm sure there have been accidental shootings with Remington 700's where the shooter admitted that he/she had his/her finger on the trigger when they shouldn't have. Most of these don't even get reported due to the embarrassment....unless somebody gets shot. I'd venture to say that a lot of AD's go unreported because the shooter knows that he/she monkeyed with the trigger and didn't realize he/she didn't know what he/she was doing until his/her rifle went off unexpectedly. Have you "analyzed" all of those also?

And why is it that your analysis is much better than mine simply because you reached a different conclusion?

ETA: Why do you think it is that the trigger pull on most mass-produced firearms is absolutely horrendous? It is mostly by design....wouldn't you agree? Why is that?

I tried to respond to a point that wasn't clear by asking a polite question with the goal of holding an adult conversation.

Too bad you couldn't do the same.

Let me make my question clearer:

What possible difference does it make whether *I* have personally witnessed an unintended discharge of a Remington?

None that I see.

The rest of your reply makes no sense at all.

An adult conversation would imply an ability to understand what you were talking about. Anyone with any time looking at triggers would know have some foggy idea how they work. You were the one insisting the trigger is flawed when you have no idea how it even works.

Instead you were relying on an obvious smear campaign. You were not adult enough to actually investigate what you were discussing before entering the conversation. You were not adult enough to realize decisions are made AFTER the facts are understood. You were not adult enough to follow very clear statements of fact. You were not adult enough to explain how grass seeds and pine needles thread their ways through openings far smaller than they are.

Remington did not make defective 700 triggers for well over 40 years and just get away with it. An adult would be able to read that plain as day...

More than a vast majority--probably 99.9% of all alleged AD's. And the rest are folks inadvertantly pulling the trigger when operating the safety, or the bolt, or otherwise handling the rifle.

Just picked up a 1975 vintage M700 ADL from the original owner. The rifle's been hunted off and on since new, the owner appeared to take pretty good care of it. Bore looks to be in great shape, exterior is clean.

Carefully looked at the action screws before I pulled the stock--they looked to be pristine. Pulled the stock off and underneath was FILTHY. Original packing grease looked to still be on the exterior of the trigger housing, fine wood dust, dust from the Dupont varnish, and grit was caked on the trigger housing, and practically impregnated onto the bottom of the receiver. Tigger adjustment screws appear to still have the factory seal on them. Inside the bolt body was pretty dirty too.

This rifle would be a perfect candidate for the notorious AD..........Clean on top, dirty underneath......


Casey

My take on the "Remington trigger issue" is and has always been that there is occasionally a problem with these triggers firing when the safety is released. This happens when the trigger is pulled with the safety engaged and it happens on individual triggers in which the parts are dimensionally flawed. In other words, the presence of the trigger connector (or not) has nothing to do with it. I have debated this with Jack Belk before and we simply disagree. He chooses to blame the trigger connector though there is no concrete evidence that it is indeed, at fault.
Like Malm and unlike many of those who post opinions on the issue, I have adjusted, removed and replaced, modified, and serviced, hundreds of these triggers. I have what I must, blushingly, aver to be a superb understanding of the function and design of the "Walker" trigger.
What Mr. Belk espouses is an opinion; nothing more or less. In truth, my contention is the same; it is my opinion. Like that of Mr. Belk, my opinion is backed by years of hands-on experience and a good understanding of mechanical design and function. In the end, you pick the opinion you like and run with it.
Regarding the rifle in the original post, a trip to a competent gunsmith will undoubtedly, as Malm stated, cure the problem. Neglect or maladjustment by an incompetent workman will cause the problem to return. GD

The trigger is not designed by Mike Walker,rather by a fellow by the name of Sheeney(sp).DuPont bought the patient.And to extend the length of the patient,added the connector.That what I get for reading books,useless tidbits.

A Shilen trigger will go off,too, when the safety is released if the adjustments are too far out. I have seen this many times in jammed industrial equipment such as Radicon gear boxs.Damm near lost a finger to it.

No, an adult conversation would point out specifically what they thought I was wrong about and correct it.

OTOH, now that you've lost the logical argument, you've stooped to insults, personal attacks and arm waving. Sadly typical.

Much clearer now. You did say it was powered by the connector spring in your first post, I misread it. Mea culpa.

Again, you have to be kidding...
My first post to you after you suggested you wanted to join the grown-ups:
'So you accept Belk's theory of debris... Yet he admitted under oath he had never seen it happen... Remember, Belk is the guru...

So, please explain the course a piece of debris as large as a grass seed would take to get betwixt connector and trigger body. There is no room at the sear and less at the bottom... otherwise it is full width of the housing.

Now, if that "weak" trigger weight spring cannot move just the connector back into place how do you expect it to move the entire trigger because that is the "fix" so many use for the "problem."'

And the second time when I patiently attempted to help an "adult" understand why their (now proven) utterly ridiculous decision was flawed:
"natman
You gave two examples of debris you thought could possibly make it into the space between connector and trigger. Both are significantly larger than the available openings.

A build-up of grease and such is possible, but when you use impossible things to describe the potential problem it weighs heavy on your argument...

There are a lot of other holes in your argument as well..."

And the third time I attempted to enlighten you:
"You make the big dramatic ploy something will surely get into your trigger someday... I am thinking mine will be fairly safe due to minor routine maintenence... and mine are the automatically suspect kind because all have new trigger weight springs and have not been factory-adjusted.

Your argument about the grass seed or pine needle noted it could happen on an "otherwise Prisitine gun"... And I call bullshit on that.

You also claim if you have not had a problem it is because nothing has worked its way into the trigger... but that is not what the evidence has shown. Evidence has shown Bubba is the number one culprit, fingers in the trigger guard or on the trigger when the gun goes off is right in there... And stuff in the trigger has been real hard make happen and has never been made to happen on any trigger tested by Belk that was involved in an incident.

I also love the usual argument that the trigger housing traps debris inside... without getting to the concept it also keeps it out. No trigger is perfect and all can be tricked to fail. And I am not suggesting you used the claim about the trigger housing trapping junk."

So I gave you three shots at joining the adults before you pointed out the fact you had no idea what you were arguing about. I doubt you have ever had a 700 trigger apart and are arguing on emotion without substance. That is all fine, but if you want to claim adult status you should be a bit more honest in claiming a need to undrstand, as opposed to making assertions about how flawed the trigger is.

You never did answer the question about how you thought impossibilities could happen...