Getting ready to pull the trigger on a Grizzly lathe for tinkering and barrel work.

I ran across some - gear heads are to complex and not worth it chatter.
What do you guys think?

This one could be fun.

I will make a batch of popcorn.

Hey at least I avoided the used american steel vs. Chinese new stuff issue - although I'd lay fair odd's that will come up too.

I'd go with a gear head lathe.

The big criteria, for me at least, is that the hole through the spindle be sufficiently large to handle all anticipated barrel and action work.

this specific gear head has a foot break on it which is pretty large plus.
it's a 14x40 w/ a 1 9/16ths spindle bore

Grizzly G0709

I asked one of the better smiths here which one he'd pick and he recommended this one due to the foot break, it is the one I was leaning to - but I've never heard anyone complain about gears before..

So I asked, didn't want to bother the smith with follow on questions - but I did think it was weird that someone wouldn't want gears if they do things like cut threads. I know a good deal of people use the G4003G belt driven lathe and are pretty happy with it so ...

Looks like a pretty well thought out design for a "Gunsmith lathe", particularly the 1 9/16" spindle bore and the centering screws on the outboard end of the spindle. I would try to find someone who owns one to get some feedback before I pulled the trigger though. The other issue that comes to mind is getting a machine that big (heavy) moved into where you are going to use it. Be sure to get the front to back measurement so you can measure door width (learned this from experience).

yep the weights got me a bit worried but it's going into a workshop with garage doors so I'm good on the entrance.
It's a concrete slab so I should be ok there as well.

I did find a couple of guys who went with this lathe and they seem extremely happy, it's a step up (at least cost wise) in the Grizzly gunsmith line from the 4003G, and almost all those people who have them are very happy so I think it's a safe bet.

I assume it is a heated space because condensation in an unheated space plays hell with cast iron.

Right now it's not heated....

Hmm....

My woodworking equipment in my unheated garage has suffered enormously despite my best efforts to protect them.

My lathe lives in my basement and has been GTG for a long time.

As a stopgap you may consider building a little enclosure for your new lathe out of 2" foam and using a small spaceheater to moderate the temperature and hence the condensation.
You'll be VERY unhappy when you see rust blooming on your new cast iron ways!

I am in the wet Pacific NW, shop is one mile from salt water.

Lots of insulation (studs are 2x6) and the attic is pumped full of blown in insulation.

Nary a problem with condensation or rust of any type. Been in this shop 20 years. Previous shop was not insulated and rust was a problem.

Insulate your shop! Put in some type of heat, don't use propane or natural gas, both pump moisture into the area. I have a 5000 watt electric mounted on the ceiling and only have to use it when it is pretty cold. 30 minutes of running the heat and the shop is warm and I can turn the heater off.

Damn it, ok insulating the place is going to put a shift in my schedule.

Didn't want to hear that but it's darn important so thanks for keeping me out of trouble

I made the mistake of not having my shop heated, cast iron was red rust in short order. The heat does not need to be much over 50 degrees or so, easy to turn it up before a work session and then back down. Sounds as though you're good to go as far as getting it into your shop. Pipe rollers and a Johnson bar are useful in setting your new lathe in place. Most rental places have Johnson bars, a johnson bar is a heavy duty long handled tool kinda like on half of a hand truck with rugged cast iron casters. Indispensible in getting the lathe up on and down off pipe rollers and off the shipping pallet.

Gearhead lathes tend to be noisy unless the grears are precision
ground, something you will not find on a popular priced Grizzly lathe. Noisy gears along with the inherent torsional vibration produced by a single-phase motor can be annoying as well as producing a less than perfect surface finish on the work piece.
Gear heads usually don't have a slip clutch to save tooling and perhaps a workpiece if you do something stupid.

Belt drives are quieter( especially with multi-link belts) and can be adjusted to allow the belt(s) to slip if a crash occurs.
The belt does not transmit sigle-phase torsional vibration very well.

The primo set-up is a belt drive with a VFD for speed control. This eliminates the single-phase vibration since a 3-phase motor is required. The VFD gives at least a 12:1 speed range, infinitely adjustable. If the lathe is well built and the spindle and motor are properly balanced, it will run quietly and vibration free from a crawl( 10 Hz) to full speed ( 120 Hz).
It is true that spindle torque will be limited at speeds below 30Hz. You can always move the drive belts if needed to get more torque, but in my case I never move the belts on my 13x36 Jet.
Additionally, the VFD is adjustable on the fly and can also brake the spindle in you have a non-threaded spindle nose.

RAN

Keep in mind when you are moving a lathe, especially on rollers, that it is very top heavy and will tip over in a heartbeat.

I almost tiped one over several years ago when moving it, pipe rollers on a concrete floor. Just barely saw it start to tip and we managed to keep it upright, don't ask how, I do not know.

The mention of 3 phase makes me wonder. Most residential areas do not ha ve3 phase available.There are converters to change a 3 phase motor to single phase,but then would you not still get the vibration mentioned?

Doing chambering work , .001-.003 out of alignment can sure screw up a good barrel

Couple of thoughts:
1. Gear "slap" is common on all geared head lathes. As mentioned, the premium USA built machines (long gone) had precision ground headstock gears so this was hardly an issue.
2. The trade off from gears to belts would be metal removal. If only used for smith work, doubt that is a big issue.
3. Digital phase converters (such as Phase Technologies) will often out preform the rural power companies.
4. Finding a pristine, affordable LeBlond, Colchester, Monarch, etc. is beginning to become a serious endeavor.
5. The Taiwanese machines are typically superior to any produced in China. Priced accordingly too.

Does the Grizzly have a taper attachment?

Clemson

I have an acquaintance that also happens to work for one of the major barrel makers. He also builds his own rifles, which I might add, are very accurate and well done. He purchased the Grizzly G0709 recently and is pleased with it.

Well one thing for sure is that insulating and heating the shop is going to cost enough it's going to push the lathe purchase back to the end of the year.

But I'm still going that way.

At least I did finally get power into my workshop.

I've had two cabelas game hoists sitting in that shed doing nothing.

Sure put a smile on my face running them tonight when I got finished running the elec. to the outlets, and the lights. The last day of the year too.

BTW - thanks for the tips on moving the lathe - and not tipping it

The 3 phase version of that lathe is almost double the cost so that's not an option and as Saddlesore correctly pointed out you can't get 3 phase in residential areas so I'd have to use a converter anyway.

I have a Grizzley gearhead lathe, and wouldn't want a belt drive. It is harder to get different "things" to fit onto the spindle. Never buy anything that you cannot eventually set up for 5C collets. I think that threaded spindles tend to be less accurate.

The belt drive has a threaded spindle. Watch those chucks, faceplates, etc, pop-off if you run the darn thing backwords. My first lathe was an Atlas/Craftsman belt drive. I bought it new in the mid 70's. I ended up putting a frequency drive and a three phase motor on my present machine that runs off of single phase. Life is good now. What I hated was the fact that you had to take a big 10 inch gear off, and change it to go from high range to low range as far as spindle speeds. They don't tell you those things in the catalog. Cheapass design!

When I changed the motor I changed the drive pully to a compromise. Power is not a problem for a gunsmith. We don't make axels for railroad cars. My machine is an old Grizzley Model 1003 I think. It is a 12 x 36, and a bit short. You notice they have gone to a 40 inch bed. My old Atlas 12 x 36 was a bit longer "effectively." I bought a taper attachment with mine, and have never used it. Circumstances have kept me from useing it much. You need it if you intend to do any real barrel turning. I had to D and T the backside of the apron to instal it. It must be paralell to the lathe bed. For the life of me I cannot remember why that is so necessary right now, accept remember with that with a taper attachment you cut tapers in like a 9 inch section of the attachment.

Moving it: Do it in two steps. Take it off of the cabinet, and install the cabinent where you want it. Leveled it. The move the lathe, and put it on top, and level it. You don't damage the lathe when it is on the ground. I used an automotive engine hoist, and a sling. I took the tailstock off to move it, and put it back on after the lathe was mounted.

We let the lathe down the basement steps on a dolly hooked to the back end of a Ford F250 4x4 for an anchor. We re-assembled the motor hoist and lifted the lathe back onto the cabinet after it was located in the basement by the cabinent.

Comments from help were like, "You aren't going to move soon are you."

Good luck with your friends.... I bet there's a guy in Montana that is just fighting to come help, initials JB. None from here in Ohio.

If you call Grizzy they will give you names and numbers of people that own the models you are considering. WDO

I have two lathes and both are gearheads. Smaller one is a Rockwell 14 by 41 variable speed with taper attachment and 5C collet closer. The larger of the two is a Turn Master 15 by 60. I run both lathes on 3 phase power and don't have finish imperfections with either. Only problem I have is the MT taper is larger on the 15 by 60 so I have to have two sets of tooling or adapter sleeves.

Very true.

How old is your Grizzly? From what I can tell, the newer models use either D1-5 or D1-6 for chucks and faceplates. My 4003G is belt driven and uses D1-5.

On another note, the availability of a collet closer is a plus, though one can be made if the proper adapter can be found (MT5-5C, etc).

Looks to me like it'll do the job nicely..

VFD's up to about 3 HP are single-phase 230V input with 3-phase 230V output. This elminates the no residential 3-phase problem.

RAN

If you should ever need true three phase in an area that has no option (or the power company wants your first born to locate), this is the real deal:

http://phaseperfect.com/models.htm

Just a FYI, no affiliation.

A VFD is wonderful! I have 2 in my shop for my 2 Bridgeports. My Clausing doesn't need one as it is variable speed and is on a phase converter. I have no problems with a belt driven lathe.

The only problem here is that a 3 phase lathe costs way, way more than a single.


Worth it - especially given you have to buy a inverter?

Not so much

Simple to take a three phase motor, feed it single phase power, and get it to produce the three phase you need to run your lathe motor.

Used three phase motors are cheap and plentiful as well.

Google it.

But older industrial grade three phase lathes are available pretty inexpensively due to their being three phase.

The problem is that older industrial grade lathes usually have large motors, and large motors don't come in single phase.

Sounds like a Catch 22 type thing. Isn't that why they make phase converters?

I realize this and that's why I mentioned a way to make your own three phase power on the cheap.
Use a three phase motor, fed single phase from your garage, and once you start the motor it will produce three phase power to run the three phase motor in the lathe.
Single phase will run a three phase motor but it will not start it. Some folks just use a large pulley on the three phase supplier motor and give the pulley a little spin with the foot to get it going.

Yeah there are plenty of DIY pages on a rotary phase converter. I bought one just cause I had the money budgeted with the lathe.
FYI you can feed ANY VFD single phase and it will out put three phase your just have to derate it at the higher HP's say above 5hp by 30-50%

As for the value of a three phase machine. Umm I refuse to own anything else.
There are no capacitor to die on you. No start winding contacts to deal with. No nothing. The three phase motor is electromotive force perfection.
That and you get better efficiency, Better duty cycle, longer life. lower amp draw. yada yada yada.

3-phase and VFD's are pretty slick. Spotshooter.... are you saying the 3-p version of the same lathe costs twice as much? That's very odd if so.

I own both a 12x36 belt drive (varispeed) and a 17x40 gearhead lathe... I'll refrain from commenting other than to say I use the 17x40 most of the time. It does have very nicely ground gears and runs real quietly though.

My main reason for posting is to pass along that a local acquaintance got one of those 14x40 Grizzly's and measured the runout at the spindle at over .0003. That's not so good. He returned it and ordered a Taiwanese lathe that has a warranty'd accuracy spec for spindle runout under .0001". However, it's much more expensive than the Grizzly.

'Twer I you, I'd have a good gauge that reads tenth's on hand, and before I got too serious about even uncrating the machine fully I'd measure runout at the spindle. Send it back if it reads higher than .xxxx (maybe others can help with an acceptable runout spec for chambering work). My 12x36 Logan has about .00025- .0003", but my big lathe is beyond my ability to measure; well under .0001". I've been putting a bunch of effort towards tooling up the larger machine for barrel and action work because, partly, it runs so true. The Logan came with spiders and other barrel tooling but I can't abide .0003" when I have a better option (albeit with a deep headstock) across the room.

If I'm wrong about any of this, I welcome correction.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious as to where you are measuring your runout on you lathes.

Ruh roh <g>...

Butch, measuring the ID of the spindle nose with an Interarapid plunge indicator in both cases. It's the only option on the Logan (threaded spindle).

Is that wrong?

I thought my indicator was broken the first time I tried to measure the bigger lathe.

Measuring runout on a lathe is a royal pain to do correctly. Simply measuring the spindle with an indicator is not the best way to do it.
Test bars and plates are expensive but they are what should be used to measure the runout on a machine among other things. An old toolmake I know has a couple of test plates that ride in the spindle of different lathes. Precision ground to near zero run out. He can place this plate in your spindle and measure the runout at a 10" diameter magnifying the error.
The other thing is to put a load on the spindle and see if the bearing are moving.

Now here's the deal. Most engine lathes are rated at .0007 TIR spindle run out or less. most tool room lathes are rated at .0001 TIR. At the spindle nose. Then there is the difference between id an od and at 12" out with a test bar. Parallelism with the carriage movement both top and side, same for the compound movement. Cam action of the spindle. where the spindle axis changes due to the forces applied to it by the running gears. Which is why belt drive machine are more accurate in spindle run out then geared head machines. You have removed one influencing force from the spindle.

That said, that is if your indicator can read .0001" TIR as most won't. Pull out the cert on accuracy and repeatability. it will shock you.

Thing is with a four jaw chuck your spindle could be out .005" and you could still dial it in to near perfect concentricity.

Or use an adjustable three jaw.

KLS good post

Either way it needs to be an independent chuck not a scroll chuck. Or if it is a scroll chuck it has to be a set through scroll chuck

I'm just past learning that there is no such thing as perfectly centered when you have good gauges, so what you are saying is definitely resonating

Thanks.

WAY beyond my ken to measure all that stuff. When I mention measuring runout in the future I'll be more specific that I'm just talking a no-load measurement right at the spindle with a .0001" indicator. I am pretty careful about it; I'll measure different parts of the nose taper, plunge or retract the indicator more to make sure I'm not in a funky spot in it's travel, and so on. But your points are very good ones.

Metrology is fascinating stuff. It'd be fun to take some classes. I saw there's a scraping/metrology class happening in Seattle soon.

Practically speaking, I get myself tied in knots trying to think it through, but, with a 4-jaw dialing out spindle runout it seems that you'd only be able to get it true to one spot in Z. For any machining operation requiring a cut parallel to the spindle (like chambering) as you moved away from the spot you'd dialed in, your error increases. Which would be less and less true, the less runout there was to begin with, so, less runout is ALWAYS better. No?

Alright so who makes a lathe 1.25 or more through the spindle at 16" or less??

Hey spotshooter, you made me curious so I bopped over to Griz just now... the 3-phase lathe that costs twice as much is a 16x40 and also weighs twice as much as the 14x40. Now it makes sense.

I was planning on buying an 0509G myself so I'm not anti-Grizzly by any stretch. With some crucial help from Dennis I found an arguably superior machine for half the money and with a nudge from him... a dope-slap as it were, grin... I snagged it a couple months ago.

Ok, I'll bite - what did you end up getting Jeff ?

http://www.ganeshmachinery.com/site.../Toolroom-Manual-Lathes/GHT-618-EVS.aspx

One of these, except half that money and with more tooling. It's a South Korean licensed clone of a Mori Seiki. Super beefy- for perspective, it's almost a full ton heavier than the bigger Grizzly, the 16x40 0509G. Weight is good!

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=190717399984

The tooling included several good chucks... 9-10 Aloris toolholders... a custom oversize steady rest.... the most intriguing is a 10" 6-jaw Buck chuck that they threw in towards the end of the deal. Those things are well over $2k new. I haven't used it yet- needs a backplate. It has a nice 10" Bison Set-Tru that I use all the time, and a 12" 4-jaw I've mounted to practice dialing in barrels with. I'm buying a chunk of steel to make a spider chuck to use instead. That'll be interesting- basically machining an A1-6 backplate, complete with a subtle taper to mate with the spindle nose. But, that 12" 4-jaw is a b!tch to wrestle on and off and I'm not getting any younger.

Deep headstock on these machines. I made a tool that reaches in from the outboard side to engage a muzzle and then allow precise adjustment.

Well I run a 1945 14 1/2 x 7 South Bend it only has an 1 1/8 thru hole. Of course it is belt drive the best thing I ever did was buy a South Bend belt that eliminated the seam. My spindle doesn't show any run out but I don't have a .0001 indicator. I use a 4 jaw chuck 99.9% of time. For barrels that won't fit in thru hole I thread and chamber from centers using a face plate and turning dog. I use a floating reamer holder to handle any small amount of run out that might show up. The one thing I learned was that these engine lathes have to be dead level in all directions or spindle run out will be the least of your worries. And level needs to be checked often especially on a new machine and one that has been recently moved as they tend to unwind and settle into there new position. That being said I don't build bench rest rifles but the vast majority of my rifles will shoot 3 shot clover leafs. Most barrels won't go completely thru my thru hole so a spider won't help. So I have built a set of tapers out of 1 1/8 round stock that I use to center the barrels in the thru hole. There are always several ways to skin a cat so use some common sense and logic to figure out your machining needs.

South bend!! It's called a heavy 10 or a 10L i had one sold it off for the machine I have now.

Not exactly true. In chambering we not only want to be as accurate as we can in concentricity but also in cylindricity. Your observation of the error getting worse the further from the spindle nose is an example of being out of cylindricity.
See if you had a test bar in the spindle and it read +.0005" at some fixed point on the diameter then dialed to the end of the bar and got the exact same runout at the exact same position that would be an error of concentricity and a perfect reading of cylindricity.

Please don't take these comments as a high and mighty attitude (and not saying your did either) I was just tasked on more then one occasion to verify a test report from a machine supplier. I learned a lot from that old toolmaker. He taught me how to scrape too. So I've had first hand experience pulling out my hair trying to eliminate all the variables to be able to confirm a number.
It's a royal PITA and it enough to make you go bald and have an ulcer all at once.

Jeff O
One of the shops I worked at had that exact machine. Renamed a Hawachieon or something close. It was a Korean import. Damn near as good as the Mori only half the cost. You have my dream machine. Damn good score.

Wtroger. CORRECT!! I have a .0005" over 12" precision machine level just for double checking my machines. And you are correct too in that if it ain't level run is nothing. How about turning a coke bottle shaped part. all because your bed is all over the place. Dead level and double check it every few months after a new move. Once a year there after.

Thanks! Yes, it is rather awesome. I had to go get it- 8 hours up, 12 hours back in the driving rain- which probably took years off my life, but it was worth it. They didn't know what they had. They mis-spelled Webb as "Web" on the Craigslist ad, which I suspect kept the dealers from noticing it long enough for me to get it.

I couldn't have done it without Dennis. He edumcated me on lathes in general, gave me the heads-up on these specific machines, and then gave me a good prod forward after this one came up and I sent him a link to it. Big time good guy!

I just grabbed the first link I saw in the post up above.... just noticed the pictures on that auction are terrible, all distorted. Here's a pic of mine, running temporarilly off the 3 HP VFD from my mill:

Just get it good and level. I'd change the spindle oil if it's remotely discolored. Buy some good way lube and never have to buy another machine again.
If you ever go to sell it CALL ME I'll make the trip & pay cash. I don't care if it's ten years from now.

FYI Webb machinery were the one that founded this project i.e. the Mori copy. What they did was buy a used Mori and shipped it to Korea and told them make a exact duplicate. They did No the one interesting thing is these machines were marketed under a few different names. Webb, Hwacheon (sometimes shortened to Wacheon) and Cadillac . The machine we had was a Hwacheon branded machine close to a 15X40 size. Damn heavy duty and very precise. Our top toolmaker checked this one out with me under his wing. I remember the spindle being out by quite a bit for run out. I believe it was .002" at the nose. Thing was you put it in a mid range speed, let it run for an hour to warm up and it settled right in at .0005" TIR Very weird but as long as you knew about it, it was not an issue.
BTW those machines as you've seen sell used in good condition for $8K-$12K
New starting at $16K and the original Mori sold new in 1995 for $20K we got our copy for $12K with a full tooling package.

This is my old machine



Sold it for $1400 only paid $600 for it but it left with a bunch of tooling.

This is the new machine. this was taken as soon as it was dropped in the garage. That mother was heavy


I also scored this surface grinder from a Aerospace shop in town. This went to salvage and I picked it up for $300 with the mag chuck and a spare arbor

All this guy needed was some cleaning up.

That Maxturn looks like it'd be heavy! 14x40? How deep through the headstock?

We've kinda blown up Spotshooter's thread here... sorry SS! Maybe it makes the anticipation even sweeter?

Wacheon still makes these manual lathes. Now they push $30k! Parts availability was a big factor for me, though obviously I hope to never need it. I did make my own parts to fix the compound gib adjustment setup. It'd been Bubba'd beyond comprehension.

My Webb is way too deep through the headstock for a standard outboard spider. I asked some questions on the PM forum about tooling for chambering through a long headstock, and ended up inspired to make a tool based loosely off of one the late Shelly Davidson used on his Victor. First step was to put a spider on the outboard end of the spindle- not to hold the barrel, but to hold the tool. In a perfect world it'd have been a press fit on the spindle OD. In my world I ended up needing to mount it via two rows of brass-tipped jackscrews. That was a royal pain to get it running true. Not that it really needed to be, but... you know...

Here it is shown without the 4 exterior jackscrews.



The purpose of it is to lock down this tool, on the bottom shelf. It has a solid steel center shaft, which pivots on a circular bronze bushing I made on the Logan (it has a ball turner). That keeps the play to a bare minimum while allowing the shaft to pivot. It has two bushings on the OD that fit very snugly inside the spindle ID. There's a bronze center on the right end of the steel shaft that engages a barrel muzzle deep in the spindle. You adjust with the black jackscrews. The silver ones just lock things down extra-tight once it's where you want it. The part on the left with the thumbscrews is a centering bushing.



Here it is installed on the lathe:




A lot of work, but I want to be able to work through the headstock on this machine. The tool works GREAT! I can easily and predictably and very precisely adjust the position of the muzzle, then lock it down tight.

Of course,, this could also be accomplished by sleeving the barrel to make it longer and just using my outboard spider. That didn't occur to me until after I'd built this tool. I'm not the brightest candle on the cake.

Again with apologies to SS.... check THIS baby out. Very rare bird. It's a Dutch Hembrug AI.... got to see this over Xmas.... it belongs to my stepdad, who is of Dutch heritage and is an engineer with a fabrication shop. It'll be mine if I want it when he retires. It's roughly 17x60", 6500 lbs, and they are supposedly Swiss-built works of industrial art; very precise. Also a complete orphan machine.





I don't know if I'll have work warranting owning that machine or not. I think in that size range, I'd rather have one of the 17x60 or (!) 20x80 Webb/Wacheon machines. OTOH, I could hardly stand by and let such a rare and high quality machine get sold off for scrap or something!!

Actually now that I look at the numbers and do the math my Takasawa Max turn is close to a 16X30 it's 400mmX800mm with a a 5HP motor.
It's 20 or 22" of head stock then add the chuck. Your little gizmo there give me an Idea. I think I'me going to steel that design and make me a copy of that.
I'd rather have one tool that can do multiple things then sleeve each and ever barrel that comes in.

This is what I meant by circular bushing. That's the solid steel shaft at the heart of the tool. This bushing is very precisely fitted to that shaft and in turn, the bushing OD is very precisely fitted to a cutout in the "nose" of the tool (second photo) body. The reason being (obviously) that a regular bushing, with enough slop to allow the shaft to pivot, would have two problems. First, the slop in general. Second, the case where the muzzle didn't need to be moved side to side or up or down, in which case, the steel shaft would be "floating" in the slop. The round bushing cures alla' that.

Mr. Davidson's tool used a hollow center shaft to allow for cutting fluid under pressure... however he didn't end up doing that. I had a piece of solid shaft on hand so that's what I used.

On the tool body, the first bushing needs to be a tight slide fit. That's custom to each lathe I would think. I used aluminum but bronze would be better. The second, leftmost bushing engages the mouth of the spindle which is almost always going to be dinged up from guys sliding stuff through. So that one, I went for a jam fit. Aluminum is appropriate for that.

The centering bushing is necessary for reasons that will be apparent if you build it without one, as I originally did. My next trick is to add a couple springs between that bushing and the tool body... pull the bushing to the left, to tension the springs, then tighten down the thumbscrew. Now, you have positive spring pressure keeping the bronze center on the steel shaft engaged against the muzzle while you make your adjustments. Instead of using your belly as I've been doing.






Edit: here's a pic maybe showing more clearly what the centering bushing does for you.

The bright spots to the right of the silver jacking screws are landing pads for the outboard spider screws, to lock the tool body in place in the spindle.

I made brass tipped screws to keep the center shaft pretty.







I can't wait to actually use the [bleep]' thing! I've got 3 actions slated for rebarreling this winter/spring. The practicing gunsmiths here must just be rolling their eyes at all this effort to make a big lathe usable for through-the-headstock work! Thing is, I bought the lathe to make parts on- I do lots of larger diameter stuff that was really taxing on the Logan- but this Webb is just so nice, stable, solid, and precise that I can't see using the skinny little Logan if I can use this instead!

Yep I didn't get into machining parts at hot to do gun work but it just worked out that way.
Anything to make a buck man. Thanks for the infoI web archived the thread so I can refer back to it in a few months.

Ok - what do you mean when you say a deep head stock and is it good or bad.

And that link you posted show 7k, which is more that the Griz?

What he is implying is his spindle length is long making it a little harder to do barrel work through the spindle as opposed to between centers over the bed using a steady rest. Both ways work. A short spindle or headstock can make barrel work a snap with just an added spider at the back with a four jaw up front. Dial it in at both ends and your running. The longer spindle though usually comes on the heavier and bigger machines and that too has it's advantages. Alas there is rarely THE perfect tool...

I compromised on my lathe purchase with a 14x50 Clausing. It has a spindle length right around 22" and will work nicely if all I ever do are 24" barrels but that won't always happen, so I will just have to change methods a little bit to do short barrels. Not a big hill to climb and was worth it in my case as I got a smoking deal on this fully tooled set up that will do some larger work as well. Still anticipating South Bends release of their new Heavy 10 that should happen this year....

Here is a link to as good a tutorial as you can buy showing different ways methods and tooling. It may help you on your way to choosing tools. And to stay on subject a belt driven machine is still an excellent choice just get a cam lock spindle for ease of changing chucks.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/29...le-barrel-fitting-book-by-john-l-hinnant

okie,
I believe my Clausing may be the sames as yours. I have a cathead on both ends and can do 22" barrels. I believe I could do 20" if I got a little creative.

I believe your right Butch and have contemplated a cathead in lieu of a four jaw. Mine is a 1500 series.

I'm way out of my pay grade here and have never chambered a barrel so please take this as just an enthusiastic guy a bit ahead of where you are in the process, expounding. As always I welcome correction if I say something wrong here; just trying to learn from the masters, not pretend to be one.

The chambering method popularized by Gritters uses a cathead or spider (4-screw chuck) on the outboard end of the spindle to adjust the axial position of the barrel relative to the axis of rotation of the spindle, to put the throat of the new chamber AND a point a few inches further down the bore into perfect (sic) concentricity with the spindle.

That may or may not mean that the muzzle is actually centered in the spindle. It's different than working between centers in that way.

If the headstock is too "deep" to allow this, IE the barrel muzzle is buried inside the headstock somewhere, then you've got a problem. For instance with a 24" barrel, I'm needing to literally reach about 8" into a 2" pipe (the spindle) to reach that muzzle! And, then I need to be able to very precisely adjust the position of that muzzle and then, lock everything in place. That's what my tool does.

The Grizzly lathe you are looking at specifically has a short headstock and even comes with that outboard spider installed by the factory. I needed a bigger lathe for non-gunsmithing work, and big iron has other advantages, so I've been working to find ways to use my machine through the headstock.

As to price, I paid $4200 for my Webb.... not $7900. One reason I was so hot to snag it. But, it had the downside you hear about with buying used "American Iron", meaning it had a past life as a machine someone bought to do production on (most likely). My Webb is definitely a used machine. It appears to have been spared actual abuse and to have been well-lubricated when it was in hard use; the ways are in great shape and everything is tight and smooth.

I think a great case for buying new Chinese can be made. I was vaguely planning on buying the big Griz gunsmithing lathe, the G0509 16x40. Then you've got a NEW machine to start with (duh).... No worries about past use and abuse. However, it's my opinion that something like my lathe, or several other USA or Euro machines, are fundamentally FAR superior designs and executions than modern Chinese stuff. My lathe just exudes quality manufacturing by people who really, really cared and were trying really hard. For that matter so does my 10x54 Taiwanese mill! To this point- the Grizzly mill I had for a while, exuded none of that for what it's worth. The fit and finish were pretty sloppy and in general it seemed thrown together.

With all that said, the type of work you are talking about doing, hobbyist gunsmithing, is easy duty for a lathe. Plus, most of it is working from a fixed position on the ways, and you don't need to turn long shafts to high precision, nor hog metal in direct competition with the shop across the street.... I would just reiterate what I said earlier, which is to check spindle runout very soon after purchase, and be prepared to send it back if it exceeds .000X". I don't know what an allowable "X" should be. I only say this because of what a guy I know fairly well related to me recently about the very lathe you are buying. But yours might be fine!

All the best, and I hope I haven't tromped on your thread.

That's funny right there. A real lathe setup should have an isolated slab for itself. The owners manual for my lathe recommends cutting a hole in the slab a little bigger than the lathe footprint and pouring a new slab, 2' thick with an expansion joint around it!

My shop has 4000 # concrete 12" thick. I couldn't do separate slabs as I didn't know the layout at the time.


Jeff- that is an awesome machine you scored. My uncle bought one I found for him last year and it is mine when he gets to where he can't use it anymore(he is 85). My Nardini, meanwhile, does pretty good work.

Yes it's true. And how many thousands of machine shops are just rented out warehouses with machinery on the floor??

Yes all machines should be on a isolated concrete foundation as per OEM specs. I'd be willing to bet that less the half the machines in the US are on correct foundations.

Thing will shift but if goo attention is paid matters can be caught early.
As for a home shop doing basic work I would not even sweat it.
Now if it was a large CNC or a Jig bore. You bet I'd pay big bucks for an 8000 Psi foundation how ever thick required.

My jig borer sits on a thickened slab too but not an isolated one. It is heavier than my Nardini too!

I put massive amounts of concrete and reinforcing bar into this floor but that doesn't make it perfect.

The I was getting at is yes you should do something to support the machine but most don't. Not saying it's a good idea for precision work but it's not like the lathe is going to fall through the floor either.
It all comes down to you use and your intended results of your parts. Want good part? Do your best to eliminate outside influences on the machine tool.
LAst shop I worked in the jib borer and jig grinder where in a separate room on huge foundations with climate control to keep everything stabilized.

My machines in the garage go through some wild temp swings in the winter but not to bad. at most it's a 30 degree swing.

I poured a 7" thick slab in my shop with lots of rebar. I'm already wishing I'd gone 10"-12".

Dennis, the more I use it, the more I appreciate how good it is! In general, if something isn't pretty much perfect, it's because the bozo who had it in the past repaired or adjusted something all wrong. The compound worked fine but felt funny; I rebuilt the gib tighteners and replaced a stripped bolt and it's smooth as silk now. The crosslide was smooth as glass in the middle part of it's travel but tightened up at each end. I suspected worn nuts, but no! It was Bozo again. He'd completely misunderstood the backlash adjustment setup, and in the process (this still floors me), lost the bearing off the far end of the leadscrew! I tore into it last week and found the bearing in the oil sludge under the slide. After fixing the backlash adjuster ass'y and adjusting the preload on the front bearing, and of course reassembling it with the rear bearing actually bearing the aft end of the leadscrew, I've got under .005" backlash and glassy smooth end to end.

Anyway, my point being that a high-quality used machine starts out "right" and can usually be returned to that state. Then you've really got something. I do worry that the Grizzly that Spotshooter wants might not start out right. Then again, he won't have to de-Bozo the thing when he gets it, or run the risk of buying a used machine that's truly worn out in an unfixable way. I see the conundrum.

I kinda have a fetish developing with my Webb. They made a 17x60 version of my lathe, as well as a 20x80. Both Mori Seiki copies. I truly hope one doesn't show up cheap locally, or I'm in trouble.

Dennis, I think you'd [bleep] over the Dutch lathe I saw over Xmas. Roughly a 18x60, 6000 lbs. A Hembrug A1. It's as beefy as the Webb, and reputed to be of similar high quality, but talk about obscure! It's in the family and may be mine someday.