Well, I did it.

I rented a PT&G .22 K Hornet reamer, go/no-go gauges and a "T" handle, spent two hours converting two .22 Hornets to K Hornet. I had never done that before, appreciate the help from Fire contributors. I got a small can of Tap Magic as suggested, took my time, measuring often.

One Hornet is a T/C Contender 14" pistol and I did it first. The other is a CZ 527. It was a bit harder, I had to grind the set screws on the "T" handle to fit in the small action.

I was able to get the chambers close enough that fired cases from one will chamber in the other. I got Redding K Hornet dies on Ebay at a decent price. I'm pleased how these projects came together.

DF

Good going DF, have you had time to fire either? if so, was the accuracy improved, or did it remain the same?

Nice, you need to get some 45 gr TSX's and a jug of lil-gun, you/me can join the Poohbah stunt shooters association this fall.

Don't think I'll ever be in the same stunt shooting class with you guys.

That's a hard act to follow. 😎

DF

I'm not in it either DF, Poobs says I need to buy a smaller rifle.

Just fired one round each to test.

Haven't had time to go to the range. Even then, I'll have to shoot my Hornet loads to form K Hornet brass, load them and get back to the range.

With my other projects, new Creedmoor, new 7-08, etc. that could take a while. But I will report.

DF

The Poobs is one of a kind, never to be duplicated...

On the other hand, that may not be all bad... 😎

DF

That reads like an order.

Yup,like a snowflake.

That CZ is one sweet rifle DF.

Dirtfarmer,

I'm betting that CZ shoots VERY well. I had a 527 in K-Hornet for a while, and it was a literal tack-driver at 100 yards, 5-shot groups with its best loads averaging under 1/2".

However, I did encounter one problem: The magazine (like most magazines for .22 Hornets) was too short to use plastic-tipped 40-grain bullets. They're the best ballistic compromise in the .22 Hornet, shooting noticeably flatter and drifting less in the wind than any other type or weight of bullet.

I could use 40-grain soft- or hollow-points in the CZ, but their BC was enough lower than the plastic-tipped 40's that 40-grain Ballistic Tips from my Ruger No. 1 .22 Hornet shot noticeably flatter and drifted less in the wind than any load in the CZ K-Hornet at any range past about 125-150 yards, despite the extra velocity. I suspect this is why Hornady's version of the old wildcat .17 Hornet is actually a little shorter than the original, the K-Hornet necked down. And of course, the plastic-tips "splode" varmints more consistently than soft or hollow-points. (Splode is a West Virginia term. Or at least that's where I've heard it most often.)

A couple of years ago I ended up with a Brno ZKW 465, the predecessor of the CZ 527, which had been rechambered to K-Hornet. The magazine is just enough longer that 40-grain plastic-tips can be used, though the Tipped Varmageddon fits easiest. At 3200+ fps, it definitely provides a little more field performance than my Ruger No 1, which gets 3000 fps or a little more with 40's from its 26" barrel.

Another thing discovered while fooling with the Brno K-Hornet is Alliant 300-MP is just enough slower than Li'l Gun to provide a little extra zip in the K-Hornet, though the difference ain't much.

All of this, of course, is typical rifle loony minutiae. Will be very interested to hear how your K-Hornets shoot.

Thanks for that info, John.

I already fixed the mag to accommodate longer rounds. I removed the plastic spacer, cut around .1" off the back side, reinstalled it, drilling new holes for the two pins that anchor that part in the mag body.

I JB Welded a spacer to the follower to make it work. After consultations with James Calhoon, I narrowed the mag spring, as it was too strong. I got one of James' single shot adapters and use that at the range, saving the mag for hunting.

DF

Subtle, but I caught it...

You highlighted "flake"...



DF

I'll have to add one humerous note.

After K chambering the Contender, I walked out of my shop and shot a round into the ground to see what the fired case was going to look like.

I forgot how hot those Hornets are. With all our rain, that bullet blew mud all over my shirt and face, I had to go clean up...

DF

Yup.

DF,

Good deal! I owned my 527 K-Hornet long before ever meeting Calhoon. He knows a lot about 527's!

Dunno why the Hornet magazine was longer on the Brno, but it was. In fact it's the longest .22 Hornet magazine I've ever measured. It's not that much longer than the 527's, just enough to do the trick.

Yeah, it's only around .10" or so that makes all the difference.

I guess the bureaucrats got ahead of the engineer/Loony types with that decision.

And, it makes no sense.

DF

Apparently .22 Hornet magazine length was engraved in stone back when the cartridge was factory-introduced by Winchester, with round-nosed bullets only.

I kinda like single-shot Hornets. Loaded just shy of the lands, 40-grain Ballistic Tip loads for my Ruger No. 1 are over 1.9" long! In fact, the bullets are kinda hanging on by their toenails. The No. 3 Hornet I had for a while took the same loads, and also shot them extremely well.

They must have engraved that same stone with factory 1-14 twists in many of the various .224's....

Yep!

I just finished up a K-Hornet job on a Remington/Zastava rifle. Pressed in barrel that I didn't want to tackle and very small diameter bolt body. I sent my reamer back to PTG and had them reduce the shank to .250". I then made a small diameter tee handle to reach through the action. Probably won't be the last small diameter bolt on a Hornet I run into.
By the way, great customer service from PTG. $30 to modify the reamer.

Good info.

My reamer was rented, headed home tomorrow. Hope they don't get too torqued up over ground down set screws. Without grinding them down, I couldn't have finished the project.

Oh well.

DF

My CZ is 16 twist like the older Hornets. Wish it was a 12 or 14. At least it's .224 not .223.

DF

BWAAHAHAHA WORD, Men!!!!! ;]

DF,

The 1-16 twist should still stabilize most 40-grain plastic-tips at your altitude. As I noted earlier, the Tipped Varmageddon is about the shortest.

The 45-grain TSX, however, is pretty much out of the question, so you probably won't be able to use your CZ K-Hornet for much stunt shooting....

Hello Mule Deer, how on earth is my M-70 with I believe a 16 twist able to stabilize the 45 gr TSX, I'm getting nice round holes at 200 and shot length ways through a coyote at a bit less than 100 yards? just lucky? or the 2922 fps in a 24" barrel?

Thanks,
Gunner

I ran the numbers through the Berger twist formula, which is normally accurate, especially when it indicates there's no way a certain bullet will stabilize in X twist. But there are mysteries in twist that formulas can't answer, especially typos in manufacturers specifications--and the length I used for the 45 TSX came from the Barnes website. I don't have any 45 TSX's on hand. Could you measure one?

Yessir, just got in from the shop, Wifey is pulling Axis deer meatloaf outta the oven right now , I'll eat and go back out and measure one.

JB, if my calipers are on, the Barnes 45 gr TSX measures .697"

Will look forward to your spin calculations.

Thanks. Should have also asked your elevation and typical temperature range when shooting.

Gunner probably gets more Lil gun in a Hornet case than anyone. He uses a drop tube. There are loads and then there are gunner loads. He's probably off the chart with that 45 Barnes load. May not be able to explain gunner with facts, physics or formula....👀

DF

LOL!

However, the 2922 fps velocity he provided in his post is right in there for the K-Hornet. On the other hand, extra velocity doesn't make nearly as much difference in bullet stabilization as most shooters believe.

The formula also is designed around boattail spitzers, and flat-based bullets with less-than-pointy tips also stabilize in slower twists than the formula indicates. Will see what it says with elevation/temp info.

Yep, and it's because the two opposing forces are the gyroscopic stabilization provided by the rifling, and air pressure on the front of the bullet: The faster spin resulting from extra velocity makes the bullet more stable, but the extra air pressure destabilizes the bullet.
The effect of extra spin is only slightly more than extra air pressure.

I've seen observed velocity to be a poor substitute for twist.

DF

Very interesting thread. I bought a #1B Ruger in the .218 Bee, figuring it would be a little better in a heavy single shot rifle - before discovering Bee brass is now unobtainium.

I may have to revisit the K Hornet. Also good to hear about 300MP being useful.

Elevation here at the farm is 555 ft asl, average temps fired in are 40-55 degrees, hope this helps solve the mystery.

A mad scientist in the loading room, huh?

Tex, the next time I see some Bee brass for sale here I'm gonna grab it then give you a call, if you don't buy it I'll be forced to buy a 218 Bee rifle somewhere.

And that would be a dire shame ;]

Thanks - you can find it on the auction sites, but they want $1.50+ per case, which is about what .475 Turnbull brass costs! versus ~$.25 for Hornet brass.

I think I can make these from .32-20's without much trouble, which is probably what I will do in the future. The rifle shoots well, and easily beats 3200 fps with 40gr bullets and 14gr of Lil'Gun.

gunner,

It comes out closer now, close enough that the 45 TSX being a rather blunt-nosed, flat-based bullet explains the discrepancy with the program.

Now I'm curious if you've actually measured the twist in that rifle? Have run into a few older rifles where it varied some from "nominal," due to the primary method of rifling used for many factory barrels before WWII.

JB, how much will 100' vs. 555' above sea level matter if the equation is already on the fence?

Maybe I can get more Lil gun in a K Hornet case that gunner can squeeze into a Hornet case...

I may get a can of 300-MP. Is 300-MP denser than Lil gun, as in getting more in a case? If it's slightly slower than Lil gun, I'm guessing maybe not.

DF

10-4 Tex, it still sucks to get the boot on something even if you do desperately need it, 3200 at 40 grs sounds like the perfect crow killer.

JB, Thanks for the educated clarification, I have not measured the twist of this rifle, always heard 16 twist, serial number is 116xxx putting it at year model '47 I think.

Yeah, that's the nominal twist for all pre-64 M70 Hornets. Even in '47, however, they were cut-rifling barrels. Both of the primary rifling methods used by factories today, button and hammer-forging, were developed during WWII in order to increase production, but cut-rifling was still used by many sporting-rifle companies for years after the war. (Now, of course, cut-rifling is considered a really special method for custom barrels.)

Have measured twists on older factory barrels that were over an inch different than nominal. None were on pre-'64 M70's, but I went through my big pre-'64 years before becoming zealous about measuring rifling twists.

Many companies still used very slow twists for some cartridges long after the war. Savage finally switched to a 1-10 twist in .250-3000's around 1960, when they revamped the 99, but Winchester still used a 1-14 twist in .250's as late as the 1980's. (I had one for a while.)

And even some people who should know better still believe in the slowest twist possible: in 1999 a gunsmith made me a 7x57 with a 1-11.5" twist, apparently because it was supposedly perfect for 140-grain bullets. It was--for lead-cored 140's, but wouldn't shoot Barnes X 140's, or any other bullet longer than a lead-cored 140 spitzer. Finally I measured the twist and figured it out, because he never told me about the "special" twist. (He did something similar when he built a friend of mine a 6mm Remington with a 1-12 twist barrel.)

That 7x57 is exactly why I measure the twist of EVERY rifle anymore.

Thanks again for the detailed experiences, I will measure the twist on this rifle and report my findings, I do know the little rifles barrel is very accurate for a sporter weight, not being bedded or floated and with a screw running through the stock, although it's backed off several turns.

I never agreed with the slow twist in factory 22-250's or 223's, never could understand why the companies couldn't see the potential of faster twists.

I would have had to eat a box of nails I would have been so mad on the 7X57 build, and I don't blame you for measuring every one either.

Yeah, I was pretty upset!

Still happens today. I bought one of the Lipseys Ruger #1V's in .223, which was supposed to have a 1 in 8" twist. It shot 4-5" groups with 75gr Amax. I checked and measured it at 1 in 9", contacted Ruger and they said yeah it's 9". After the buildup & hooplah for a fast twist I was surprised they'd do the 9".

That said, it's possibly my most accurate #1, so I guess I'll live with it.

DF, 300-MP has a burn rate comparable to H-110 WW-296, a bit slower than lil-gun, if it is indeed much denser allowing you to get more in the Hornet case you may be on to something good.

In my experience with all three powders in the .22 Hornet and K-Hornet, H110/W296 is the fastest burning, Li'l Gun is noticeably slower than 110, and 300 MP is very slightly slower than Li'l Gun--but definitely not as slow as Accurate 1680. That's with 2-3 different lots of each powder.

I don't think 300 MP is much denser than Li'l Gun, but haven't really checked.

Got curious and ran a little test: 300 MP is SLIGHTLY denser than Li'l Gun, or at least that's how my present batches worked out. However, the difference ain't much, about 2%.

As far as burn-rate of various powders in this class, while burn-rate charts usually show H110/W296 as slower than Li'l Gun, all such charts are average approximations. Powders can and do switch burn-rates depending on the application. As an example, while H110 is slightly slower than Li'l Gun in the .44 Magnum, it's considerably faster in the .22 Hornet. Hodgdon's own handloading data for both cartridges shows this.

In Alliant's data for 300 MP the SINGLE rifle cartridge listed is the .22 Hornet. The only load listed is for the 40-grain Hornady V-Max, with 11.7 grains producing 2944 fps in a 24" barrel. I noticed this a couple years ago, and when Li'l Gun disappeared for a while I tried some 300 MP, as I had a couple pounds on hand.

Muzzle velocity was a LOT less than listed in my Ruger No. 1B, despite the 26" barrel, around 2750 fps, which normally means pressure is less. (This is probably due to the rather long throat.) So I did some experimenting.

For years I'd used the commonly listed load of 13.0 grains of Li'l Gun with 40-grain bullets in the Ruger. Muzzle velocity ran 2900-3150 fps, depending on the bullet and primer (more on that later). So I used case expansion to check comparative pressures between Li'l Gun and 300 MP, a valid technique as long as the same NEW cases are used for two different loads.

When using same charges of 300 MP and Li'l Gun with 40-grain bullets, case expansion was slightly less with 300 MP loads--and so was velocity. Around 13.5 grains of 300 MP was required to match the velocities of Li'l Gun in the Ruger Hornet, and accuracy was very similar.

At this point I knew 300 MP was a fine substitute for Li'l Gun in the .22 Hornet, and bought an 8-pounder. I chronograph-checked the new lot against the old, and muzzle velocity was within 20 fps.

Have just started experimenting with 300 MP in my new-to-me Brno K-Hornet, but so far it looks like a winner. But one other factor should be noted: A few years ago I ran a primer test in the Ruger .22 Hornet, using the 13.0 load of Li'l Gun with various primers from CCI 500 small-pistol (pistol primers are, of course, a common trick among long-time Hornet handloaders) to several popular small-rifle primers.

The definite winner was the CCI 450 small-rifle magnum primer, both in accuracy and velocity. This may seem odd, but for years the standard Hornet powders were Alliant 2400, IMR4227 and H110, which are relatively easily ignited--and charges are relative small, especially with the old 45-grain roundnose bullet.

In the Hornet, Li'l Gun and 300 MP are slow-burning powders, and like many spherical powders apparently burn better with a little hotter primer. I'm betting that 300 MP, CCI 450's and 40-grain bullets turn out to be a top combination in the K-Hornet, and that's the way things look after initial testing. But I haven't done enough experimenting to settle on a final load yet.

Nope. Not buying any MP 300. No way I can improve on 11.5 grains Lil Gun ( 3050 FPS ) CCI 450, and the 40 grain Hornady V-Max. Shoots way too good. Not even gonna try.

But thanks for that CCI 450 tip a while back.

I may try it in the Bee, maybe the .300 Blackout, too...

That's a lot of good info, JB, many thanks.

DF

Widener's has 300-MP and Power Pro 2000 LR, which I've not see anywhere, wanted to give it a whirl.

I have a can of each headed my way. Already have the primers.

DF

Did you get a measure on the twist rate yet? Just curious....

DF,

Loaded up some Winchester K-Hornet brass with 14.0, 14.2 and 14.5 300 MP, 40-grain Tipped Varmageddons and CCI 450's today. Didn't get to shoot them because of high winds (which are blowing in forest-fire smoke, and no doubt fanning the fires as well) but hope to later this week. The barrel of my Brno is 58cm (@22.8") but 13.5 grains of Li'l Gun gets a little over 3200 fps with the same components. Will report later.

I'm reading M. L. McPherson's Varmint Hunter article, Working With The .22 Hornet.

He has some good stuff to say, even mentions K Hornet advantages, 300-MP and Lil gun powders. He likes Fed 100 pistol primers, has a heading titled, "Never Use Magnum Rifle Primers in the Hornet". He talks about piercing and "blanking", primer material extruding into the firing pin hole.

Well, I have CCI 450's and will definitely use them with 300-MP and Lil gun in these K Hornets.

I wonder if Mic was one of the early proponents of pistol primers in the Hornet, or just grafted his thinking onto existing trends.

Maybe I can duplicate gunner's loads without a drop tube, coercing enough powder into a small case to make the 45 TSX work...

From what I see published, the K Hornet case has around 16 gr. H2O, the Hornet, 14 gr. That's a 14% increase in case capacity if I figured it right, (2 divided by 14).

DF

Using pistol primers in the Hornet has been around for a long time, probably before Mic was born. They weren't supposed to work, according to some companies and "experts," because of piercing and blanking. But then the last Speer Manual (#14 I believe) gave pistol primers the seal of approval, using them for all their Hornet loads.

I've NEVER had any piercing/blanking problem with CCI 450's in any Hornet load, whether the .22 Hornet, .17 Hornet or K-Hornet. For that matter, have never had any problem with small-pistol primers either, but as far as I can recall have only tried CCI 500's.

What I've found, not just with various Hornets but other small centerfires, is different primers can make far more difference than in larger cartridges. This is partly because small rifle (and small pistol) primers vary far more than large rifle primers, both in cup material/thickness and brisance, but the small capacity probably has something to do with it too.

Early last year I measured the H2O capacity of fired Winchester cases from my .22 Hornet and K-Hornet rifles, using 40-grain Tipped Varmageddons seated to 1.79" overall length, and the difference was a 10.66% increase in the K-Hornet--close to what you've heard. Applying the 4-to-1 Rule suggests a 2.66% potential increase in velocity, about 80 fps in a 3000 fps load. Of course that would vary somewhat due to other factors as well.

In my Low Wall Hornet, CCI 500s and Fed GM100Ms give equally good groups with H110 and 40gr VMaxes, but I've standardized on the Feds and use the 500s for handgun loads.

My first try with LiLGun and Rem 7 1/2s was a little disappointing, but I was using a different seater, so I'm not sure the load was the problem. I hope to find some of those 450s for my do-over, but primers are currently a bit scarce around here. Powder selection, OTOH, is the best it's been in years.

30gr Barnes VGs also do very well in my Browning with H110, even though I can't get them seated out nearly as far as the VMaxes, which like your loads are hanging way out there.

I also had my best luck in the standard Hornet with 30 VG's with H110. In fact it's my go-to Hornet powder for bullets lighter than 40 grains.

I don't want to give the impression that primers other than CCI 450's don't work with Li'l Gun. They do, in fact for years I used CCI BR-4's in my Ruger No. 1 because they worked the best of the small-rifle primers I had in stock then. But that was back when BR-4's weren't much more expensive than most other small-rifle primers. But then I ran a more complete test 4 years ago, and found 450's worked slightly better.

Interestingly, the Federal 205M, the primer used by most short-range benchrest shooters, didn't fare well in that test. Accuracy wasn't as good as with CCI BR-4's or 450's, and muzzle velocity was 100 fps slower than any other primer. However, benchrest shooters mostly use extruded powders that are more easily ignited than sphericals.

Not yet mmgravy, about to go out to the reload shop and do just that, I'll report my findings in awhile.

JB, interesting info on the powders having differing burn rates from on case to the next, I mean, slower burning in a 44 mag, but faster burning in a 22 hornet, I love this place, I would have never put that possibility together.

Oh, and I'm in the CCI-450 primer camp too, for all things 22 Hornet.

DF,

"Do not fear the drop tube young grasshopper, walk toward the light my friend."

and if all else fails, press harder on the press...

That's what those solid shank barnes' are for to ;]

With slightly more case capacity, it may be easier to get the right charge delivered without getting a hernia...

I didn't mind reaming these guns. No way would I want to see that done to your vintage Super Grade...

Pick up a cheap Hornet rifle and ream it to K Hornet. It's a better case with a shoulder to headspace on, less case stretch, enough more capacity to more easily do what you're doing. And, you may find a 14 twist, which would also favor the 45 TSX load.

DF

DF

Depending on the brass, you'll probably have plenty of room for tHe 45 TSX in the CZ, which probably has a slightly longer magazine than my Brno.

In Winchester brass, 14.5 grains of 300 MP barely came above the shoulder into the neck. I didn't use a drop-tube, just tapped the case a little while filling it with powder. Had no difficulty seating 40-grain Tipped Varmageddons, which are only about .01 longer than the TSX's.

10-4 DF, I just fired 3 outta my hornet for s&g's a few minutes ago while testing loads for the 50-90 Sharps.

Three of those 45 gr tsx's went well under an inch with two cutting, all through an old M8-4x long tubed Leupold.

That Hornet is just like lunchmeat, it's always ready ;]

Hello JB and mmgravy,

Measured the twist in my rifle, the very best I can glean down to is 1 turn in 15.72" twist, that, a bit off old method of twisting these barrels may be just enough to keep it spinning true JB.

Thanks, gunner.

Interesting.

DF

Hey DF, check your cell phone, just sent ya a pic. BWAAHAHAHA

JB, out of curiosity, have you measured the twist in your Ruger Hornet?

Yeah, near as I can measure it's right at the listed 1-14". Twists don't vary much when barrels are hammer-forged!

My Brno K-Hornet's barrel is right at 1-16". My bet is it's hammer-forged too.

Got it.

DF

Did you see that little Hornet group hiding in there amongst those 50 cal holes? ;]

I did see that tiny little group right there by those BIG holes...

Was trying to download, photobucket and post. Can't get it to work. Maybe when I get home on my other computer, I can do something with it.

Sure is a difference in bullet hole size, .22 and .50 cal...

DF

LOL, 10-4, It would be nice for JB to see that group, only adds to the mystery for me on why that near 16 twist will spin those 45 gr tsx's up so tight.

And yes, 223" at 45 grs beside .512" and 704 grs feels A LOT different too.

Makes me wonder if my Bee is 1 in 14", too - using the same barrel forging dies. If so I could look at 50's in it

Here ya go, gunner.

Little Super Grade, big Sharps...

I even like the Ford tractor...

DF

Many thanks for posting the pics DF, maybe JB will stop by to see if he likes the looks on those round 22 cal holes, it will hold it to I know 200 yards, that's probably as far as I'd fire the little hornet at game anyway, especially if the wind was really whipping.

You know, speaking of wind, the first shot was dead center 2.5" high, while I was loading the second round I heard the wind chimes on the back porch, those chimes only jingle when the wind is out of the S.E., direction of fire is dew North, that may help explain the last two shots being a bit left, it was a calm wind, maybe 5/6 mph, but, I don't think it takes much to move the little hornet.

I'm looking forward to JB's report on his 14-14.5 gr. 300-MP K Hornet loads with 40 gr. bullets.

I'm thinking that load can be backed down a bit for a good 45 TSX load in the K Hornet.

DF

10-4, me too, I believe that 45 gr tsx at 2900+ should drill the hell out of deer or pigs, we may even get an invite to the Poohbah palace yet ;] ;]

You reckon that load will get Poobs salivating...??

Well, it's not a .223AI, but even littler...😎

Minimalist stunt shooting, pushing the "little is better" envelope.

How could he one up that?

DF

With a .17

I am pleased to report my Ruger .218 Bee has a 1 in 14" barrel. That makes things different...

What bullet you gonna try Tex?

Louisiana guy killed a nice buck with a .204. Then admitted it. Got in a heap of trouble. .22 cal is min legal caliber. So, unless the state he's hunting in is different than LA, he'd better not try that...

DF

LOL, I've thought about using my hornet, but at 45 grs, I'm 10 short of the state minimum iirc.

You guys keep the k-hornet tips coming.I have been searching for a good load in my 21" MGM barrel. I have been using cci small pistol primers(LilGun and 296,1680) and may have to try some 450's. Do you put a light crimp on them? Seems I am getting better results with partial neck sizing??? Shooting 40gr v-max and b-tips.

We'll let the Poobs push the envelope.

We'll stay out of jail.

DF

Well for varmints I'll try the 50gr Vmax and Ballistic Tips. But I bet it will work with the 53 TSX, too.

Oh yeah, it may have the best wood of any of my #1's

No crimp here Ken, just lil-gun with the 450's and 45 gr tsx's, I know a coyote isn't a hardy animal, but he was at least three feet long, little bullet went through him length ways.

Yup.

Damn nice Tex, the 45gr will do for me, I'll probably not shoot mine much over 200 yards, hoping the lighter bullet will keep the speed at such a short distance.

I too have a #1 in 218 Bee. I use 40gr VMax and 12.2 grs of H110. Very accurate.

That's about as nice as wood gets on factory #1's. Seems the older red pad guns may have had better wood than the newer ones. That one looks like a black pad.

Here's a .220 Swift that I subsequented traded. I think yours is pretty close.

DF

Arrrgghhh...that may be my "grail Swift"

25 years ago I was living in Dallas, and would drive through San Angelo on the way to my deer lease. I'd stop at a gun shop there. For several months I'd drool over a Swift like that one, jaw dropping wood, but never had the money to buy it. The one time I drop in with the money, ready to buy it of course it was gone. I've always wondered what became of it, referring to it as my "grail Swift".

How did it shoot?

This is the other side of the Bee, it is also very good



All this of course has nothing to do with K Hornets

Shot great. I did free float the forearm, glass bedded to the hanger, installed a Kepplinger trigger before they got so expensive.

I wasn't using it, traded it for a super .257R custom that's a keeper. The new owner is happy, I'm happy.

DF

Maybe not...

But good stuff, nonetheless...

The OP isn't offended, for sure...

DF

Nice 22's guys, dang.

You not exactly slack on pretty toys, yourself...

DF

Cause I'm ugly, we have to have pretty guns and women just to get us by.

Compensating...

I get it...

DF

Gracious, patiently understanding Women are from God Almighty Himself!

Hey DF, you're an educated guy, do you think with the center to center then subtract bore diameter that the 50 fired a close to 1.5" 4 shot group?

I cant go measure the target, the sawed off donkey came by and ate it.

And thanks for the compliment, that's an old 1954 Ford 960, 50 Horse ground pounding gas burner lol, bought it for Wifey cause she wanted to help brush hog around the place sometimes ;]

Yeah, those old Fords just keep on keeping on.

And, yo wifey definitely gets style points, Bushhogging with a vintage tractor. A woman who can drive a tractor is definitely worth keeping... grin

I think you measure from outside edge to outside edge, then subract one caliber. That takes you center to center. That's a lot more precise than tring to find the middle of a big .50 cal. hole... wink

Donkey ate your homework, hey...

DF

LOL, yes, she slathers up in coconut butter and shorts, think she uses it as an excuse to tan.

10-4, I'll call it a 2" group, trying to see if my rifle and load is working okay, I think I'll have to take it, not rear bagging a rifle and resting the front in hand on a rest and using barrel sights, [I] can't shoot any better than that, Sharpsguy, Sharpsman and Kurt71 damn sure can, but I'm just a Sharps greenhorn still.

And yes, that damn donkey has to be 3/4ths goat. lmao

You could follow that donkey around until she "unloaded" your target...

I think it's 2" or slightly more, edge to edge. Subtracting .5" would get close to 1.6", maybe 1.7", compensating for a potential "donkey factor".

Not bad for a vintage dude, shooting a big boomer, using irons...

DF

, Pass on the refined target, maybe I could till it into the garden for next years tomatoes. lol

I suppose, you know, it's harder to shoot those big guns well, kinda like walking behind a mule you know kicks, gotta keep the flinch factor at bay.

Yep, no doubt it's a "mind over matter" thing, not that easy to master.

But, you gotta be into some S&M...

The way you like those big kickers.

DF

Some kind of a weird mental challenge I could never put a finger on, may be a mental disability, ;] after a bench session with one, you're to damn tired and sore to go out and get into trouble.

My cans of 300-MP and Power Pro 2000 arrived today. That was quick.

Wideners has a good stock of powder, are a great bunch to deal with and have good prices, better than most.

https://www.wideners.com/

DF

Good deal, you'll probably be at the chrono and loading room till dark thirty.

Let us know some speeds and groups will ya?

Wet here. Helping a good bud with his deer hunting property on weekends.

Takes up time and I still work.

Gotta shoot my Hornet loads to get K Hornet brass, load them and get back to the range.

It'll happen and I'll report.

Just having too much fun...😎

DF

10- Rahjah DF, we'll be waiting.

Dirtfarmer,

My range results were interesting today. The load was the Tipped 30-grain Varmageddon in Winchester brass, already fire-formed in this rifle, with CCI 450 primers and three charges of 300 MP:

14.0 grains--3270 fps, .77 inch group
14.2 grains--3287 fps, 1.49 inch group
14.5 grains--3348 fps, 2.48 inch group

As the powder charge increased, the groups started stringing more and more vertically. Looks like 14.0 grains is it, but out of curiosity I resized the cases from the 14.5 grain load and seated some primers. The pockets were still quite tight, and Hornet cases are notorious for expanding pockets with hotter loads, because there's so little brass around the pocket.

The barrel on this Brno is 58cm (@22.8") long.

Thanks, John.

Good info, as usual.

If and when it quits raining, I'll have some data to report.

May need to start building an Ark...

DF

Put a roll up door on your shop and shoot from inside, I do if I start to develop withdrawal symptoms.

Hello JB, were these in K-hornet cases?

Yep, already fire-formed. Couldn't have gotten that much powder in if they weren't, even with a drop-tube! The 14.0 grain charge is right around the level of the shoulder.

DF,

Wish you could send some of that rain our way, we could really use it....

10-4, thought so but was wondering if the new powder was that much more dense than lil-gun.

Thanks

Ran some tests the other day indicating 300 MP is about 2% denser than Li'l Gun. Not much, but every little bit helps in the little bitty case!

Behind my house is a 1,400 acre cattle farm. In front is an upscale neighborhood. Shooting wouldn't be a problem, except for the noise. Not sure how the neighbors would take to that.

I have a range around 3/4 miles behind the house, but it's pretty muddy right now. That far away, they can hear, but it's not objectionable. I just don't like to shoot in the mud, walk to targets in the mud. get my truck all muddy. My wife just hates to wash it and I don't like seeing her scrubbing heavy mud off the wheels, etc.

If I gotta use 4WD to target shoot, I can wait...

I've posted this picture before. You know how a bunch of cows love to tromp in the mud and make a big mess. And this Red River Delta mud is probably nastier and stickier than your OK mud...

DF

Yessir it does, that's what makes me feel so weird at the drop tube. ;]

10-4 and agreed on all that DF, and the cows WILL invariably every time stand between you and the target , I jump on that little Ford tractor out the back door, go staple up a few targets and let fly from the shop.

There is no one within 3/4 of a mile here but me and Wifey.

That sounds like a nice set up.

DF

My range results were interesting today. The load was the Tipped 30-grain Varmageddon in Winchester brass, already fire-formed in this rifle, with CCI 450 primers and three charges of 300 MP:

14.0 grains--3270 fps, .77 inch group
14.2 grains--3287 fps, 1.49 inch group
14.5 grains--3348 fps, 2.48 inch group
Sure would like to see what a 13.7gr charge would do....

Thanks DF, I sure like not having neighbors. lol

Your would be neighbors would probably feel the same way...

Couldn't resist...

DF

I'm gonna be shooting 45 gr. Speers and 45 gr. TSX's.

I'll be dropping JB's 30 gr. load a bit. Could end up in the 13 gr. range. We'll see.

DF

I've heard they do indeed. ;]

The 527 firing pin was indenting rifle primers too deep, almost to the point of piercing them. Mic had mentioned that happening with his 527 and took a couple of coils off the main spring.

I just did the same thing. We'll see how that works. I can always get another spring if I screwed it up.

DF

Luck with the spring/pin adjustment DF, are you using the CCI-450 primers?

I started using them because I believe they have a harder more robust face on them, turns out, they are the most accurate in my rifle too.

Those weren't 450's, Feds I think.

Haven't shot 450's yet.

DF

I shot my Bee today, with a couple different loads. I'll start a new thread in gunwriters

DF,

As gunner points out, 450's have a thicker up than Federal SR primers. The F200, in particular, has a thin cup. You might want to hold off on the spring adjustment until you try 450's.

I haven't had any problems with the firing pins in my 527's, but thicker-cup primers have proven most accurate in all of them.

Done done it...

I'm sure the lock time will be slightly more, but so what. "What difference, at this point, does it make"...(H. R. Clinton)

If I "done wrong", a new spring isn't a major deal...

We'll see how it goes and I'll report.

Thanks for all your help...!!

This is an intersting project, for sure.

DF

Will be interested in reading the results!

Look forward to seeing your results.

DF

Gunner, seems to me 300-MP isn't as bad about sticking to the powder measure as Lil gun. I dusted the chamber with graphite and get complete delivery of each charge without "late" granules showing up with extra bumps with the handle.

I think I'm gonna like 300-MP.

DF

I tried it today in the Bee, and got promising accuracy with 50's but a lot of velocity variation. I used CCI BR4's. There's a lot of air space in the case so I think 1680 may be a better choice for "heavy bullet" Bees

Dirtfarmer,

I take my post about having no problems with 527 firing pins back--partly.

Noted earlier that small-rifle primers vary far more than LR primers. Many are made specifically for low pressures, which were normal in all cartridges taking SR primers for many years, such as the .25-20. Primers designed for such rounds (which included the .22 Hornet and .218 Bee) not only don't burn very hot, but often have very soft cups, probably to accomodate lower-strength firing pin or hammer springs. One such primer even has copper cups, instead of brass.

The .222 Remington operated at a little higher pressures and SR primers started getting both hotter and somewhat tougher, but after the .223/5.56 and some other high-pressure rounds on the same basic case came along in the 1960's, primer companies started making much hotter and tougher SR primers.

As noted earlier, I habitually test several different primers in small cartridges, but not just to see how they affect accuracy and velocity, but to see how they handle pressures. I did this in my CZ 527 .17 Hornet and three "softer" primers all cratered badly, with firing pin holes almost to the point of piercing. But two showed no trace of either, the CCI 450 and Remington 7-1/2, both designed for higher-pressure rounds. They also happen to be the most accurate primers I've found in my three rifles chambered for Hornet-case rounds.

I remember something about Rem 6 1/2 vs. 7 1/2. I have both. Also have 450's, BR-4's, and others. I'm going with 450's and won't look back.

If I get good ignition on 450's with the lighter spring, good. If I think I need more spring, I'll replace it.

DF

I'm sure it will work fine.

10-4 Buddy, they'll serve you well in the Hornet, and should do same in the 'K'

Yeah, what kind of speeds you guys getting with these new powders?

Light em up with the 450's Tex, they will get it done right now, every time.

Out of the Ruger's 26" barrel 2830fps with 50's and 300MP - 3220 with 40's and Lil'Gun. No sign of any case web expansion, so I believe pressures are okay. Work up carefully in your rifle. I have plenty of bigger .22's so I'm chasing accuracy more than speed in this round.

Sounds good Tex, that's the reason I stopped at 2922 fps with the 45 gr TSX's in the old M-70, that and half inch groups when it's not too windy.

Wish I could deer hunt with my Hornet.

Difference between you Okies and us Cajuns, to a Cajun, it's only illegal if you get caught...

DF

I've noticed the Bee brass I have varies a lot in weight - say about 5% range in 10 cases, so some case sorting is indicated, too...

And yeah, Texans can hunt deer with any center fire.

Texas law probably knows they'd never catch you guys, anyway...

DF

Yes, but how can I crow about my stunt shooting without being legal?

Oh well, crow less, eat more? ;]

Here in Montana there are no caliber or cartridge limitations for taking big game with rifles or handguns during firearms seasons. You can use rimfires if you want. I'm surprised Ingwe hasn't!

He will.............;]

well...I do already have .22 TCM dies...speaking hypothetically in rifle loony fashion...

I hope you're not contemplating drilling that BEE!

ingwe is probably a "don't ask don't tell" sort of a guy...

So, probably best to not ask...

If he was a Cajun, the round would be a given, .22 WMR, the variable would be candle power...

Different world, but they eat good, eat about anything come to think of it...

DF

Yeah, I know a few!

Mule Deer

You mentioned CCI450 and Rem 71/2. Where does the Fed205 rate on this continuum?

no, the Bee is clearly capable of fine accuracy, and has primo wood, too so it will stay original. They aren't very common either.

Armscor is selling a bolt action rifle in .22 TCM for a modest price. If I was going to experiment with a rifle in such a caliber that's a better choice - or at least a cheaper one

Wheewwwww, good to hear Tex.

Prwlr,

The Federal 205 isn't the mildest and softest-cupped small-rifle primer, but it's definitely toward that end of the spectrum. It's primarily meant for relatively small charges of the small-grain extruded powders favored by most short-range benchrest shooters, which are easier to ignite than spherical powders like Li'l Gun and 300 MP. In a test I ran on different primers in the .22 Hornet a few years ago, the F205m resulted in by far the slowest muzzle velocities and widest velocity variations with Li'l Gun.

JB, do you think CCI 450's would do a better job igniting 300MP, versus BR4's?

Tex,

Not JB, but I think I can summarize; JB can correct me.

The hotter primers, like 7 1/2, BR-4, 450 do a better job igniting slow burning powders like Lil gun and 300-MP, with 450's edging others for top spot.

Gunner agrees with that, so I guess it doesn't matter what JB thinks...

DF

JB agrees!

Wheeww!

That was close...

DF

Naw, you and Gunner were ahead 2-0 already....

It's not supposed to work but Winchester small pistol primers are the best I've tried in my hornet.

What powder?

DF

Blind hog sometimes finds a worm.

Maybe even two blind hogs...?

DF

I run 13 grains of little gun behind everything in the 40-50 range, standard hornet, prvi case.

You using a drop tube like gunner to get 13 gr. in a std. Hornet case?

DF

No tube, using a cheap lee kit and throwing the charge in the top. fills the case up almost to the top. I'm almost convinced I could just dip cases, strike off at the top and seat a bullet.

The K Hornet case definitely has more room. 13 gr. drops in with room for the bullet.

DF

I've not had issues seating but its definitely compressed. Standard has been good to me, K doesn't intrest me much.

Would like to hear more about your tests!

Nothing elaborate. I started with Remington 6 1/2s and was getting groups 1.5-1.75". Tried CCI small rifles and got the same. Read about small pistol primers and all I had was winchesters in stock. Groups immediately shrunk at least in half and best groups are now running around 1/2". Nothing else was changed but primers.

How many shots in a group? Did you check your handloads for bullet run-out?

LOL, think I'm getting in 13.5 grs with only neck sizing about 1/3rd inch of the neck or measured bullet shank in the case, can't remember the exact number, but size die is set to do so.

That's why I started and finished with the 450 mag primers, I knew early on I'd be trying to ignite a heavily compressed pellet of lil-gun, I need HEAT and a tough cup Man. lol

There's also a difference in how much different kinds of brass will hold. Prvi cases are heavier, with less capacity than the Winchester cases I mostly use.

3 shot groups, about 110 yards to my berm, I don't have a way to check run out, but it was like flipping a switch with the 5 or 6 different bullets I tried.

MD - I think I remember you saying you haven't messed with them, but has anyone else used the CCI #41 Mil-Spec primer? I have heard to treat it like the CCI 450.

Thanks in advance

10-4, good to know JB.

Shot some this PM with the K-Hornet CZ.

I bought factory W/W 46 gr. JHP's and Hornady 45 gr. Match ammo. I also had 45 gr. Speer loads with 300-MP/450 primers.

At 50 yds, W/W was shooting around .7", Hornady and my handloads around .3", 5 shot groups.

I proceeded to plink with the W/W ammo and now have 50 W/W K-Hornet cases to load. I was at my farm, shooting down a large canal from a bridge. I could hit dead on at a hundred, noticed drop at 200, as one would expect. The Hornet is not a Swift...

I'll get the K cases loaded and get back out there.

DF

Good to hear DF! Looks like you have something there.

I had glass bedded the gun, tweaked the trigger to near perfection. It's a joy to shoot.

That vintage Leupold 3-9 mounted as shown seems about perfect with great cheek weld. I'm very satisfied with how it turned out.

Seems the K-Hornet conversion is working out OK.

DF

Adding Imgur photo for party interested in the K-Hornet conversion. Photobucket sucks.

My old mans 527 k-hornet is a tack driver. He bought it on consignment at a pawn shop for $350. He was told it had a headspace issue and was messing up brass. My pops inquired further and was shown a perfect k-hornet case from firing. He made some excuse about the barrel needing redone and quickly got them from $475 down to the 350.

Thought I'd resurrect a very old thread.

My latest fav .22 K-Hornet load is the 33 gr Shock Hammer over 14 gr. 300MP/CCI 450 mag primer. Sweet shooting little round, bullet is stubby enough to work, even though I did extend the mag .1" to accommodate longer bullets.

And with the CZ's 16 twist, these bullets perform really well. It may be 16 twist, but at least it's .224, not .223.

No blood, yet. I understand from others that these have great terminal performance. I would tend to believe that, based on my experience with other Shock Hammer bullets.

Anyway, here's a 50 yd. group, shot off the back of my 4 wheeler. Didn't clock'em, but would guess around 3K fps.

Should do the trick on a hog or a 'yote.

DF

Thanks DF. I'm playing around with some 300MP, but can't find any 450's.

Yeah, primers are the hardest component to find these days.

Hope this eases up.

DF

I guesstimated 3K fps with my 14gr 300MP load with 33 gr Shock Hammers.

Reviewing JB’s 30 gr bullet data, same load at 3,200, this load may be closer to that speed than just 3K. Maybe 3,150 or so; this bullet is slightly heavier. Shock Hammers reportedly are low friction per design (for mono’s), so who knows.

One of these days I may get time to clock’em.

DF

Good info on the Shock Hammers. I need to try some.

Impressive accuracy and terminal performance. Lots of expansion for a mono and not as velocity sensitive.

Not cheap, but, IME, worth it.

As posted earlier, Wby is now loading some of their factory ammo with Hammer bullets. ‘Nuff said. Their ammo isn’t cheap; is performance oriented. Their customers evidently shop performance over price.

DF

I use the 35 Bergers with H-110 and 4227 in the Hornet and 218 Bee, plus the 222 and 222R the little 35s detonate on the front side of a soda can at 100. Has fragments holes through the back side after detonation inside. Vey devastating little bullet. will do 3,500 at .2 with the 222s Deer w ear hole drops like was struck by lightning

Haven’t tried that one, although I like Bergers. That one sounds like a bomb. Need to get some.

DF

Keeping this thread alive. Well worth the read.

if your a handloader of ammo and do load for your Hornet or K-Hornet you need to try some 33gr. Shock Hammer bullets yes they are accurate but do they smack kritters good with that big hole /hollow point bullet.

Mayhaps I'll get off my butt this summer and try out some of these technically advanced Hornet bullets. Trouble is I have a lifetime supply, hell probably two lifetime supplies, of "traditional" 40&45gr. Hornet bullets that I'm determined to use up. My K-Hornet, Winchester 54 chambered by Lyle Killbourn himself, the "K" in K-Hornet, righteously sings with old 45gr. Speers and Li'l Gun. (8x Lyman Junior Targetspot)

Very cool rifle G. Love it.

Pretty sure those old guns are 16 twist. So, you may really get good groups and terminal performance with the Shock Hammer 33 gr. It's an expanding mono and short enough to work really well with that rifle.

DF

That is a sweet rig DF!

Yeah, it's a 1-16 twist with .223" groove diameter. Pretty standard dimensions for Hornets in the 1930's. I'm not too concerned about terminal performance, my groundhog hunting days are fairly behind me except for the handful I pop in the backyard where a .22RF suffices. Paper is what I mainly kill these days!

Hammer driving ring design allows for adaptation to tighter and looser bores. Lots of good info on You Tube, one great one on the Wby site when Adam Wby interviews Hammer owner/founders. Check it out.

DF

Dirtfarmer

What is the "Wby" site ?

Hal

I’ve always thought the K Hornet ruined a lot of old classic rifles. At the time of “improving” the Hornet, few people worried about the gun being a collector’s item. I bought a model 70 Super Grade in 22 Hornet and the first thing I did was fire it and cautiously open the bolt to inspect the case for the K Hornet shoulder. Thankfully it was still the original chamber.

Years later, even some of the early K Hornet guns have a certain collector’s value. SDH here on the Campfire, did an article on the latest issue of Sports Afield on my Hornet…

i have a couple of Ruger #1`s in 22 Hornet those will never be a K-Hornet ,but i do have 2 Ruger 77`s rechambered to the K-Hornet both shoot well and better since i rechambered them to the K-Hornet. i agree rifles from the past like a pre 70 Winchesters in a Hornet are worth more if not rechambered to a K-Hornet as are Ruger # 1`s in just a plain old Hornet . but if i had a chance for a pre-64 model 70 or a Ruger #1 that was rechambered as a K-Hornet for a good price i still would buy it . Pete53

I'll agree about choice rifles losing value when chambers are altered from originality, but there are a few exceptions to that rule. In my case I didn't mind one bit that my M54 Hornet was altered to K-Hornet because it was done by Kilbourn himself - it doesn't increase its value but to me it doesn't decrease it either. The trick upon reselling it would be to find a guy who feels the same way about it (not that it'll ever get sold under my watch). Therein lies the lone exception to the rule, my personal opinion only. (And it doesn't extend to no-name gunsmith work.)

There were more than a couple great wildcatters/experimenters/innovative gunsmiths back in the 30's-40's whose work paved the way for what we now enjoy today. To the cognoscenti of such stuff their names on barrels bumps values, usually back up into the realm of where it would be if in original configuration. Admittedly the market for these things is definitely limited - the average collector would turn his nose up - but that means all the more for guys like me!

Another example, not as farfetched as you might imagine, would be a Stevens/Winchester/Ballard target rifle from 120 years ago that had its barrel rebored/rechambered by someone like Harry M. Pope, Shoyen, Peterson, Niedner, et al. Such a thing would be exponentially more valuable today compared to if it were bog stock original.

This is a similar modification that you refer to. This is a customized 22 Hornet from another pre 64 Model 70 in 22 Hornet that had the action cut down to 22 Hornet length. A pre-64 Hornet is scarce enough, but cutting it down does ruin the originality of this rifle. The improvement, however, makes it worthwhile…

Outstanding, Shrap!

Do you know who did that metal work?

In Jim Carmichel's book, "The Modern Rifle", he mentions that Ron Lampert, "one of the country's top metal specialists", had taken two standard length actions, cut them, removing part of one, added that part to the other.

The result was a Magnum length and a shorter length action. One he chambered in .375 H&H, the other, .250 Savage, those were built for Jim. Guys with that level of skill could weld those seams such they couldn't be seen, actions true, not warped form the heat. And I'm sure the temper was right.

I have a .257 Roberts, Brux barrel on a LA M-700 built by Ron. Even though the action is 3.4" and the Roberts round shy of 3", it's one of the slickest feeding bolt guns I have, no matter how you place the rounds in the magazine.

I don't know if Ron is still around, as that was a while back: the book has a 1975 copyright. The cover jacket has acknowledgments by Warren Page, Jack O'Connor, Byron Dalrymple, etc. and was published by Winchester Press, NYC.

When I saw your gun, Ron Lampert came to mind, knowing he could do that level of work. I'm sure there are/were others.

Thanks for sharing.

DF

Here's Jim's book.

Steve Heilman, here is a picture of the bolt that he cut down to shorten that action compared to the original bolt from a Super Grade Model 7 22 Hornet...

Thanks.

Super work.

Gunner500 has a Super Grade Hornet.

Great rifles.

DF

I wonder why no one has ever standardized the K hornet and came out with rifles already chambered as Ks? Seems like a nice mini action bolt gun from the factory in k hornet would sell.



Bb

Excellent question.

DF

Weatherby site. Wby has a great YouTube series. Check out the one, Adam Wby interviewing the Hammer founders. Google it. Lots of good info.

DF